3.6 Pit Impressions

[Stove]

Pit is bad. Jiggs is a better character. #foxforpresident

Derek pls.. Why do you have to ruin my thread

 

[NyTR0]

Derek pls.. Why do you have to ruin my thread

You are so report rn

 

[Limbose]

Dthrow-dash attack is the only consistent followup I know of on DI away, and they have to be reasonably floaty for it to work. Also doesn't work on Bowser (and maybe a couple other heavies) as far as I can tell, because the longer throw animation means we can't make it to him in time.

That said, on fastfallers, uthrow is a reasonable alternative, since its optimal DI angle is opposite that of dthrow. I haven't looked too far into it, but regrabs definitely seem to be an option. Pit also has a lot of techchasing ability given his solid dashdancing, dsmash, etc. Grounded upB has a linking hit on frame 5 that makes it a pretty decent finisher on techchase as well.

It totally works on Bowser, it's just a bit different than other characters timing.
Another solid option is dthrow chaingrabbing at low %s. Works wonders on floaties. You can chaingrab Marth all the way across the stage. Same with Ivy, and plenty of others. If they DI up you can usually still get them. On super floaties, you can still chaingrab low %s when they DI away. If they DI up, just start juggling or something. Shank them with fairs. Whatever calls to you on a spiritual level.

 

[Life]

I tested it in debug mode, to be clear, on DI away (might have been down and away actually, not sure, was a while ago). I can check again if you like, but from what I could tell Bowser should be able to consistently DI out of it.

EDIT: From what I can tell, Bowser can tech out of low percent dthrow due to the animation length. Starting at some point (around 20%, might be earlier but I'm not being thorough ATM) we can just barely snag him, there may or may not be a hole where it stops working due to his tumble animation, and then eventually we can get it but we have to run for a while first. I underestimated how much hitstun we had to work with.

There isn't much reason to DI Pit's down throw in or up at all, except for the ones that are threatened by uthrow as I mentioned before. I don't generally test for incorrect DI, as I like to assume my opponents will play the matchup properly, but Pit does have plenty of options in that situation.

Gonna make a list of all characters who can DI out of dthrow dash attack soon.

EDIT: Currently the only ones I've figured out are fastfallers, low-percent Bowser, and Samus. Jigglypuff is also technically immune to it, but we can just upsmash instead for effectively the same combo. Not sure what her optimal DI is--I think at high enough percents she can DI away and escape anything, but at low percents she's vulnerable to a lot of shenanigans.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Test up throw, it was only giving me +3 advantage on Fox at zero. Maybe it starts working later, but up throw did not appear to have enough stun.

 

[Life]

Yeah, it does take a little time to work. Probably should have said that in the first place, my bad. Not really sure what Pit's best options are on fastfallers at very low percents. Dthrow techchase? Uthrow platform techchase?

More research on Jigglypuff: As I'm sure you've all noticed, she can't really seem to escape dthrow fair very easily due to her light weight and floatiness. There exists a certain percent (I tested 110 but truthfully I'm not certain of the exact window) where she can DI high enough to get out of it since Pit can't go up in the air super fast, but that makes her dead to Shield Bash guaranteed; or she can DI away to avoid the Shield Bash death, but becomes vulnerable to forward air again. I thought it was kind of a neat effect, that her "optimal" DI in that situation actually extends the effectiveness of a BnB Pit tactic. This game is crazy!

Generally, you want to avoid going for fair after dthrow if Jiggs is too high for you to reach her in a full hop, at which time you should be going for uair or shield bash. You might be able to DJ fair, but that won't extend the combo all that long, and by the percent where she's incapable of being followed up at all, she should be dead to usmash or bair or whatever.

EDIT: So about Fox.

Against DI away for uthrow (as in, when they DI away expecting dthrow; it's possible a slightly different DI gets Fox to the ground slightly faster), we get enough frame advantage to regrab Fox at 24%. Dthrow does 8%; this means that if our goal is to throw Fox to death, we'll need up to four dthrow techchase regrabs (or three plus a little extra from like a stray arrow or pummels or whatever to account for staling; or one plus a couple other random attacks; or... you get the point) before we can start relying on this mixup to get easy regrabs. (EDIT-of-EDIT: Dthrow plus dsmash plus a pummel brings them to 24% assuming none of those are stale, too.) Gonna look for some options against correct uthrow DI as well, though I doubt I'll find much.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Up throw and D throw are di mixups on Fox (I misremembered btw, we only get 3 frames advantage on Roy, my b). I like to start with reaction tech chases and then work my way back towards option coverage/easy damage builders btw. All assuming facing right. We have a nasty setup for tech chasing.

If we down throw and they do any DI but holding right, they are within range and we can jab reset miss tech while still having enough frames to grab tech in place (incredibly tight timing though). If they DI to the right and we chose up throw, the same situation repeats itself. If they guess the correct DI, we still get a solid tech chase on either throw (up throw puts them behind us with us at -1, down throw puts them in front at +2), so there isn't much risk in using either one. With the correct DI Down throw out-classes in the 40 percent range. I was going to test till up throw started being more advantageous, but if you are still tech chasing at this point, you probably should have gone into a normal string by now (using dtilt, upsmash, up tilt, or dash attack). You could drop a combo, but whatever. As for incorrect DI (only testing the extremes here), I will post a more complete list tomorrow (tested frames before fox teched on correct and incorrect DI for both up throw and down throw). Down throw is even better. With frame perfection (and a guess, not enough time to react to all of this), you can regrab bad DI on down throw (DI in) at 0. I will post all of the raw data tomorrow though when I test to about 40 percent for the incorrect DI's.

 

[DrugsM2]

Up throw and D throw are di mixups on Fox (I misremembered btw, we only get 3 frames advantage on Roy, my b). I like to start with reaction tech chases and then work my way back towards option coverage/easy damage builders btw. All assuming facing right. We have a nasty setup for tech chasing.

If we down throw and they do any DI but holding right, they are within range and we can jab reset miss tech while still having enough frames to grab tech in place (incredibly tight timing though). If they DI to the right and we chose up throw, the same situation repeats itself. If they guess the correct DI, we still get a solid tech chase on either throw (up throw puts them behind us with us at -1, down throw puts them in front at +2), so there isn't much risk in using either one. With the correct DI Down throw out-classes in the 40 percent range. I was going to test till up throw started being more advantageous, but if you are still tech chasing at this point, you probably should have gone into a normal string by now (using dtilt, upsmash, up tilt, or dash attack). You could drop a combo, but whatever. As for incorrect DI (only testing the extremes here), I will post a more complete list tomorrow (tested frames before fox teched on correct and incorrect DI for both up throw and down throw). Down throw is even better. With frame perfection (and a guess, not enough time to react to all of this), you can regrab bad DI on down throw (DI in) at 0. I will post all of the raw data tomorrow though when I test to about 40 percent for the incorrect DI's.

pits throws are too much for me to handle, im gonna have a heart attack

 

[Journal]

For DI in on downthrow, I think a good follow up can be a wave dash up tilt to pop them up for juggles.

 

[Life]

For DI in on downthrow, I think a good follow up can be a wave dash up tilt to pop them up for juggles.

I'll look into it.

 

[ShadowSlashX]

I like the new animations so far. I hadn't played PM for about a month before yesterday and I did a few rounds of 3.5. Then I downloaded 3.6 and Pit felt surprisingly more fluid. Idk if it was placebo or something, but I think he's much better than before.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Ok, so I finished testing fox at low percents. Down throw always gives the best frame advantage (bar the obvious of correct DI d throw vs incorrect DI up throw, though not by much). However, Up throw is still really useful as a mixup. As I said previously, we can't react to Down throw DI by the time we need to start inputting stuff till way later percents. We have 14 frames of lag on down throw vs fox. Adding in a couple frames because we can't tell where they DI'd on the first few frames and it becomes impossible. We can react to up throw though as it has 29 frames to react before we can start acting. So using down throw as our primary throw since it yields the best frame advantage, we can throw in (hue hue) a few up throws as our mixup. React to their DI on up throw, and maybe sneak in a few regrabs or easier tech chases. I will start experimenting with platforms and the edge next.

Oh and heres the raw data. All percents are before damage of the throw, so staling isn't factored at all. Realized that after I started...

Spoiler: Throw Data

Correct DI
-Dthrow
0-3:+2
4-15:+3
16-27:+4
28-38:+5
39:+6
-Uthrow
0-3:-1
4-9:+0
10-14:+1
15-19:+2
20-24:+3
25-29:+4
30: +5
Incorrect DI
-Dthrow
0-2:+7
3-8:+8
9-15:+9
16-23:+10
24-31:+11
32-38:+12
39:+13
-Uthrow
0:+1
1-5:+2
6-10:+3
11-14:+4
15-19:+5
20-23:+6
24-27:+7
28-31:+8
32-35:+9
36+: Can start jumping out

 

[Limbose]

You should make a separate thread in which we can keep all of the throw stuff. Would be easier for people to find and contribute to or something.

 

[Life]

So is there a true uthrow chaingrab at some point? Or did you mean jump out of grab, not jump before hitting the ground?

EDIT: nvm fox is WAY too far away, haha

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I'm in love with his new animations, and I don't know if it's just me but he just feels 100x smoother than before. In 3.5, he was kinda stiff-ish, but he controls amazingly now.

I'm officially picking him up. I think he's finally at where he needs to be.

I'm also picking him up for 3.6.

also what do you guys think are pits hardest mu's this update

 

[Limbose]

I'm also picking him up for 3.6.

also what do you guys think are pits hardest mu's this update

Whoever you suck most against.
I dunno. I haven't experienced it, but I feel like Jiggs would be hard 'cause it'd be tough to combo her and her air mobility rivals and/or outdoes yours if you aren't on point. Just speculation though.

 

[Kerfuffle]

I feel marth and MK both are pretty hard for Pit.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I dunno. I haven't experienced it, but I feel like Jiggs would be hard 'cause it'd be tough to combo her and her air mobility rivals and/or outdoes yours if you aren't on point. Just speculation though.

Jiggs? I feel like jiggs gets kind of wrecked against pit.

I feel marth and MK both are pretty hard for Pit.

I think I agree.

 

[Kerfuffle]

How in the name of ever-loving Christ do I combat crouch cancel? I feel like I get CC'd during dair tech chases and get heavily punished for it. What in the world do I do against the likes of Roy or MK when they're just CC'ing nearly everything?

 

[NyTR0]

How in the name of ever-loving Christ do I combat crouch cancel? I feel like I get CC'd during dair tech chases and get heavily punished for it. What in the world do I do against the likes of Roy or MK when they're just CC'ing nearly everything?

If you noticed someone that likes to be CC heavy in their game, just grab them. If you notice you're not winning the CC war why still go for it? That's what I ask myself. Grab them since Pit has some nice combos off of his throw. You all so have arrows. Just get way and throw em out at them. What are they gonna do? CC an arrow when there's no one there? Lol

 

[NyTR0]

If you noticed someone that likes to be CC heavy in their game, just grab them. If you notice you're not winning the CC war why still go for it? That's what I ask myself. Grab them since Pit has some nice combos off of his throw. You also have arrows. Just get way and throw em out at them. What are they gonna do? CC an arrow when there's no one there? Lol

 

[MudkipUniverse]

@ Kerfuffle grabs, as @ NyTR0 said

 

[RomulusPM]

Also, seeing as Pit can decently chaingrab/tech chase most of the cast* a decent strategy might be to do the aforementioned until they are OUT of percentages that crouch cancel is most effective. Unless they are a character with godlike crouch cancel shenanigans (i.e., Roy, Bowser, maybe even Samus) it shouldn't be too much of a struggle. I'd imagine optimal Pit play to include lots of grabs and arrows at early percents, then once they get to higher damages you'd start going for more ground combos to get them offstage so you can edgeguard them effectively. Just my thoughts.


*from what I've found, I could be totally off but I hope not

 

[TheGravyTrain]

You can also do a d tilt off a tech read. Since its a meteor it can't be cc'd. Once in the air, let the dairs, uairs, and fairs begin.

 

[airpirate545]

I'm really liking Pit in this version, but I've never really played him before. How does he usually play (DDer, aggressive shield pressure, etc.)?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I would say pit needs to DD grab, sh Nair, and sh arrow in neutral (with a mix of multi jumps and dash back b reverse glide to keep em guessing.

 

[Peacanator]

Was Pit's fair from 3.5 unchanged or is it better now? Also combo-wise, how would you compare him to 3.2 Pit?

 

[Limbose]

Goddamn, all these people saying Pit is so much better in 3.6. He really didn't change that much. He feels almost the exact same as 3.5 except that his dtilt is a bit faster. That's pretty much it. People's anuses were just too inflamed from the nerfs from 3.02 -> 3.5 that they decided he sucked, when really he was just fine the whole time.
Venting aside;

Was Pit's fair from 3.5 unchanged or is it better now? Also combo-wise, how would you compare him to 3.2 Pit?

I assume you mean 3.02. Combo game is a little worse in some ways, but about the same in others. It's a little harder to string arrows into combos followed by fairs and stuff, but it's still possible. Still good.

I'm really liking Pit in this version, but I've never really played him before. How does he usually play (DDer, aggressive shield pressure, etc.)?

His dash dance is super good. Jump cancel grab is super good. Tech chase is super good. Basically combo people to moderately high % and kill. If they're a fast faller or someone's CCing you, grab and do stuff from there. Arrows are nice.

 

[airpirate545]

Thanks for the replies, what are some of his main weaknesses?

 

[Limbose]

Thanks for the replies, what are some of his main weaknesses?

Well, he's kinda light, but that's somewhat counteracted by his awesome recovery. Recovering smart, you should never really fall and die. Besides that, not really sure. CCing is rough 'cause there's only so much you can do about it, but it's conquerable.
I suppose a downside is that Pit is kinda easy to edgeguard, at least for someone who knows what they're doing. You gotta be sure to mix up how you're coming back, else it's going to get real transparent real fast and the whole awesome recovery thing will go straight down the drain.

 

[Kerfuffle]

Needing some better setups for bair at around 80%. Need to get those earlier kills so I'm not stuck fishing for fsmashes at 140%. Any tips?

 

[Superfiremario]

He's really fun to play as and his animations look really polished. Good job, PMDT!

 

[Life]

Needing some better setups for bair at around 80%. Need to get those earlier kills so I'm not stuck fishing for fsmashes at 140%. Any tips?

Why bair specifically? A decent number of my kills come from juggling them until they screw up hard enough to die to something like upB, usmash, or fair into edgeguard.

Sure, bair kills nicely, but your opponent generally has to screw up to get hit with it (just like everything else in the game).

 

[Kipcom]

Goddamn, all these people saying Pit is so much better in 3.6. He really didn't change that much. He feels almost the exact same as 3.5 except that his dtilt is a bit faster. That's pretty much it. People's anuses were just too inflamed from the nerfs from 3.02 -> 3.5 that they decided he sucked, when really he was just fine the whole time.

Let's be honest, the arrows are objectively better now than they ever were in 3.5. Also aiming arrows upward on startup isn't a pain in the ass anymore and there's less room to mess up and Up-B by mistake.

Dthrow also feels better since I'm not forced to tech chase at high percents in virtually every matchup.

Dtilt change is good as well.

You're right, he didn't change THAT much, but then again, I never really thought he needed to be 3.0 Pit to be viable again anyway. Sure, there's still a couple things about Pit that I would have liked to get some attention (aka slightly buffed), but I'm pretty satisfied with what they've done to him. He just feels better overall, like a proper mix of 3.0 and 3.5 Pit. The things that they buffed were actually the main things that I wanted fixed anyway. Whether or not he was fine in 3.5 is up to you (I thought he was "okay" but very lacking), but "fine" also doesn't mean that he didn't need a little something for 3.6.

 

[420IkeGodxx]

Let's be honest, the arrows are objectively better now than they ever were in 3.5. Also aiming arrows upward on startup isn't a pain in the *** anymore and there's less room to mess up and Up-B by mistake.

Dthrow also feels better since I'm not forced to tech chase at high percents in virtually every matchup.

Dtilt change is good as well.

You're right, he didn't change THAT much, but then again, I never really thought he needed to be 3.0 Pit to be viable again anyway. Sure, there's still a couple things about Pit that I would have liked to get some attention (aka slightly buffed), but I'm pretty satisfied with what they've done to him. He just feels better overall, like a proper mix of 3.0 and 3.5 Pit. The things that they buffed were actually the main things that I wanted fixed anyway. Whether or not he was fine in 3.5 is up to you (I thought he was "okay" but very lacking), but "fine" also doesn't mean that he didn't need a little something for 3.6.

It is also significantly easier to juggle with up-airs now

 

[steelguttey]

y'all should stop makin this character your secondary cus im in need of a pit to do the character specialist ama ;D

 

[Life]

y'all should stop makin this character your secondary cus im in need of a pit to do the character specialist ama ;D

When is Pit's turn? I'm not exactly notable in the grand scheme of things, but I've been playing Pit since like Demo 2.1 (I think? It's honestly been forever since those days) and I'm PR in my (admittedly pretty obscure) region (but not for playing Pit, as I basically didn't touch him during 3.5). If it isn't particularly soon, I'll probably have my thoughts on the character more organized by then.

 

[steelguttey]

december 19th, you got time. win a major or something lmao

 

[Life]

That might be a little much LOL

Guess we'll see if anyone actually good pops up in the meantime.

 

[Sharkz]

Quick thoughts on 3.6 Pit.

He really isn't that different from 3.5 Pit. Like, at all. I'm shocked so many people are picking him back up when I feel like he still plays very similarly. I wonder how many people didn't give him a fair shot before.

I'm really glad usmash was nerfed. I felt that it was way too centralizing in his neutral game for 3.5. Nerfing it has helped me choose different and smarter options. Basically given me an excuse to rework my neutral. When I first picked up 3.6, I was having a hard time killing because I was so reliant on usmash. Now I'm getting much earlier kills thanks to edgeguards.

The change I'm most upset about is fsmash. Ugh, why did they nerf it so bad? Granted, the second hit of fsmash was never ever used in 3.5. But the first part of the move was a great mixup tool. If they shielded the first hit, it was easy to follow up with a grab if they didn't expect it. Even if they were hit by the first part, a grab was usually guaranteed. I'd prefer better iasa frames any day rather than the second part hitting. It's way too risky now.

2 frames in dtilt is good. I'll take cc options all day since pit gets cc'd so bad. Utilt feels better too. I just wish it had a littttllleee bit of a hitbix behind him so I could use it over usmash.

I feel like it wasn't much different in 3.5, but since a lot of people are coming from 3.0 I'll reiterate it. Pit is one of the best characters in the game when his opponent is above him. His juggling options are insane. Sourspot uair, dair, and Up-b are great to juggle and kill with. And if course, Pit can still carry opponents off the screen.

Dthrow and uthrow are still amazing di mixups. The dthrow nerf isnt bad since most chars could di down and away to get out anyway in 3.5. What I want to test is if dthrow tech chase is possible every time on reaction similar to Melee sheik.

Everything else feels basically the same which is great. He's so fun to use and feels smooth as butter. I want to discuss more stuff, but I'm on mobile ATM, so hopefully later.