3.5 Link Discussion

[Hylian]

Guys I need help on follow ups on throws, the old ones don't work, I need to re-learn the throw punish game and was wondering if anyone's found any cool stuff yet

Fthrow is really good on floaties, uthrows combos on most of the cast at early %'s, dthrow combos on most of the cast at later %s.

 

[Player -0]

Kind of annoying how it just says throw release points because it's hard to get an idea of the difference. Another thing about the change log that sucks :l

 

[Thor]

Have not had problems converting on throws ever, must just not be looking for hard enough conversions [but what is there that Link needs besides dsmash, utilt, uair, dair, and up+b???]

@ Mr.Pickle Here's the video that went up finally [it was posted today actually]. I'm sure you could provide all kinds of scathing commentary to both myself and my opponent, but at the same time you might be so insulting you forget to mention a few pieces of advice, so if you could focus on the advice and [if you want] edit in derogatives later, that would make sure you dish out as much Wario knowledge as you can.

P.S.: This guy's style is mostly self-made as far as I know, and he's told me he shoulder-bashes so much both because of nerves [it's usually a safe move since you can jump, has hitbox most don't contest, etc.] and also because doing it lets him charge up waft [since they don't usually contest it and he wants to work Waft in more]. We had played in pools earlier and I thoroughly cleaned him out on Yoshi's, and I generally beat him on Yoshi's and Warioware [which is why they were left open by me].

And if you think I'm throwing projectiles predictably, I am, because I'm only really trying to shut off one approach avenue, since that is primarily what happens [and you can see the results yourself].

Advice on how the Wario can up his game [mostly vs Link, but I don't think general tips are a waste] is approved, so I can just show him your post and he can read/digest it himself.

Without further ado: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx-HgR7rXHE

Also, for fun, here's 2 different gifs I made. One is of me getting wrecked, the other is of me wrecking my opponent: http://gfycat.com/MadSlushyCougar
http://gfycat.com/JoyfulThornyIrishterrier

 

[Player -0]

For Gfy 1 why wouldn't you tech any of those lol.

2 minutes in and I see a couple of very important pieces of information:
- If he's on the platform at all and you're below and forward he /always/ uses Side-B to fall down. Easy grab (time it so as he hits the ground), Side-B is pretty easy to react to too if you're looking for it. If you're each under the platforms (on seperate sides) he likes to waveland onto the platform then Side-B. DON'T CLANK/BEAT HIS SIDE B WITH PROJECTILES, YOU HAVE MUCH BETTER PUNISH OPTIONS!
- You don't seem to space attacks on shield. It also seems like you're not sure where you are AND where he is at all times. As well as any other projectiles on the board. That or you're just making weird decisions. Ex: throwing bomb into a returning boomerang, using boomerang when they're making no move to approach and are out of range (just pull bomb), etc.

I advise:
- Try not to use D-Smash at low percents, it's an option but eh. Personal choice I suppose, doesn't put you in a super favorable position or lead to combos much.
- Stay under platforms when Up-Airing, you're FH'ing through them with an Up-Air for some reason.
- Don't retreat too much when throwing projectiles if you don't need to (key: IF you don't need to. If they can threaten the space you're in be careful and move TIGHTLY).
- There's a point under the platform where he can't shoulder bash you from on top of it, you should be standing here. He doesn't have many options except for drop through aerial, bite, or retreat. If you space right you can react to each. He can attempt to jump past you but punish him if he does.
- Try not to use Up-Smash to catch people coming down, use a safer move and then lead into it or another move (I don't like Up-Smash much personally). If you misread all of your presence is gone.

More later maybe, only 6 minutes in.

Edit - FH Nair into his shield, whut?

 

[Wolf_]

Fthrow is really good on floaties, uthrows combos on most of the cast at early %'s, dthrow combos on most of the cast at later %s.

Nice, yea I'm starting to pick some things up, like around 40% on characters like Shiek, dthrow into utilt into Dair seems to be a thing, and I think Link can chaingrab off dthrow at later %s but the timing is pretty tough, but I have managed to dthrow chaingrab from around 90% to around 130% into a dthrow dair kill in friendlies

Re-learning a character is pretty fun lol just takes time

 

[Player -0]

Not sure what you mean when you say "re-learn." Link wasn't affected to that extent. I also don't think throw followups were changed THAT much but...

 

[Apollo Ali]

u must never have been 0-death'd by wolf off a grab then.

 

[Shadic]

Kind of annoying how it just says throw release points because it's hard to get an idea of the difference. Another thing about the change log that sucks :l

Sorry, it was more detailed at one point iirc but was cut on the editor's block.

Basically Dthrow (iirc) releases further in front and lower, but and lower BKB as well since it doesn't need high BKB to tumble anymore. (Some of this may not be accurate, it's been awhile.)

Uthrow's release point is quite a bit lower as well, which significantly helps followups at lower percentages.

 

[Player -0]

u must never have been 0-death'd by wolf off a grab then.

I know Wolf can 0-death off grabs. I'm confused why you're bringing it up, assuming you're talking to me.

 

[Big Chewy]

links upthrow has a chain grab on fast fallers I know that, but ya like empty said uthrow early dthrow later. Unless of course your going up against a light character like puff , d throw to u-tilt or u-smash should work

 

[Thor]

For Gfy 1 why wouldn't you tech any of those lol.

2 minutes in and I see a couple of very important pieces of information:
- If he's on the platform at all and you're below and forward he /always/ uses Side-B to fall down. Easy grab (time it so as he hits the ground), Side-B is pretty easy to react to too if you're looking for it. If you're each under the platforms (on seperate sides) he likes to waveland onto the platform then Side-B. DON'T CLANK/BEAT HIS SIDE B WITH PROJECTILES, YOU HAVE MUCH BETTER PUNISH OPTIONS!
- You don't seem to space attacks on shield. It also seems like you're not sure where you are AND where he is at all times. As well as any other projectiles on the board. That or you're just making weird decisions. Ex: throwing bomb into a returning boomerang, using boomerang when they're making no move to approach and are out of range (just pull bomb), etc.

I advise:
- Try not to use D-Smash at low percents, it's an option but eh. Personal choice I suppose, doesn't put you in a super favorable position or lead to combos much.
- Stay under platforms when Up-Airing, you're FH'ing through them with an Up-Air for some reason.
- Don't retreat too much when throwing projectiles if you don't need to (key: IF you don't need to. If they can threaten the space you're in be careful and move TIGHTLY).
- There's a point under the platform where he can't shoulder bash you from on top of it, you should be standing here. He doesn't have many options except for drop through aerial, bite, or retreat. If you space right you can react to each. He can attempt to jump past you but punish him if he does.
- Try not to use Up-Smash to catch people coming down, use a safer move and then lead into it or another move (I don't like Up-Smash much personally). If you misread all of your presence is gone.

More later maybe, only 6 minutes in.

Edit - FH Nair into his shield, whut?

Was trying to CC dsmash, got in that moment where someone's bodying you and you just freeze up [maybe you've never been there]. I stopped holding down at least : |


I'll try grabbing Wario more, but I'm not used to trying to grab him out of shoulder bash [seems VERY dangerous since he can just double jump and nail me in the endlag]. I can let it hit shield and shieldgrab I guess, but the move seems to do decent shield damage so I don't really want to do that over and over again.

I may not have mentioned it, but game 1 was the closest he's ever come to beating me [the rest of them are 2-stocks, 3-stocks, or 1-stocks where I SD'd going for something dumb like an offstage dair at 0% - though this was our first set that was recorded]. I felt I was playing pretty poorly so some of the decisions I made were super weird [and my spacing just sucked].

I was dsmashing too much at low percents, but I'd guess I was trying to CC something? If not, maybe I was trying to make a small lead before death or something weird, but usually I don't want to dsmash at low percents except after CCing [in the hopes they don't CC back, though that can get amusing when we go back and forth] or if I'm tech-chasing someone with it [and even then, that's usually after like ~30%]. The only other time I try to dsmash at low percents is just to get a move out [it's almost as fast, or the same frame, as jab] so that I can either reset spacing or so that I can try to start jab shenanigans [dsmash -> rapid jab/jab finisher or dsmash -> jab -> grab, or whatever].

The fullhop uairs were probably tech input errors, though sometimes I do attempt to fullhop through if I'm confident so I can try to land a strong uair after the first one [or a utilt or usmash or whatever]. Maybe not the best idea, but sometimes it lands some pretty large percent quickly.

Good to know about standing under platforms - I don't think I'm terribly good at reacting to bite but it's something to practice I guess.

I feel like DACUS usmash to catch a landing option from afar is good, but otherwise I'll use it less [more utilt/uair].

I don't know what you're referencing with the edit, but either I did FH nair into his shield to try the double nair trick [I think I should be nairing later or doing a fastfall late for it, will go read frame data and test in Melee], I may have missed an input meant to be a fair [that's unlikely], or I may have expected an OoS option and attempted to trade/beat it out. I doubt it but sometimes I use it to cross-over so maybe I just whiffed a cross over. Then again, I wasn't playing well so I may have just been doing genuinely stupid things [that happens more than it should, it rarely happens but it never should].

Also I was actually looking for advice to give to the Wario player, since he does well against most of the rest of the area but can't beat me at all. Also I normally destroy him on Yoshi's, which is why he didn't pick that. I was expecting Warioware [I wanted to see if I could handle him as well as I normally do on Yoshi's] but he didn't pick it.

 

[Player -0]

6:45, I distinctly remembering there being another example during the match though.

Wario has like, 10 frames where he's landing, you can pivot grab/grab/whatever during this. If you're not confident with grab I'd just SHFFL Fair -> follow his knockback.

____________________________________________________

Something I like to tell people (aka haven't talked to many people lol) is to play another character that's similar in characteristics/mindset/moves. This keeps you from relying on "jank" that your main may have. Basically fundamentals. Without fundamentals growing your main doesn't help. You can of course learn fundamentals with your main if that's what he wants to do.

Critiquing someone that bases their whole play around one move is really hard, you basically just have to say, "stop using it." It looks like he's on permanent autopilot. He used Side-B from platform ALL the time, pretty much no mixups (that I saw).

I'm not a Wario expert but I think ideal stages for him would probably be BF, Lylat, WW, FoD, and maybe YI:B. FoD actually sounds like a good CP, @ Mr.Pickle can correct me if I'm wrong.

Next time you play him, stand in the perfect spot to get Side-B'ed from his shoulder bash from platform. Once he does it, run back pivot grab (you can use the hand hitbox if you're tight enough).

 

[EmptySky00]

So I've discovered that ledge hop Zair is a lot better than I originally thought it was, namely on people who are trying to wait outside ledge hop aerial range then punish you when you try to get back onstage. The range is significant enough to catch them, and if you land only the first hit you have frame advantage. The only one I've tested thus far is on Bowser at 100% (Not sure if the first hit has set knockback or 0 KBG, but I'll figure it out) and I was at +5. I did it on Bowser for my only test because I wanted to test it on the extreme end of the weight to see what happened.

If you're really fancy you can get the launch hitbox too <_>

Basically, I thought it would be complete ass and it turned out to be alright.

 

[Player -0]

Pretty much a mixup or if you think they'll punish your ledge dash (git gud)/normal getup <100%. It can reverse the situation really well though. One good thing about the tether changes lol.

 

[EmptySky00]

So I want to request a "**** This Move" option for controller schemes.

Here's how it would work, we'll use Link as an example: Let's say, for sake of example, that Link's arrows annoy the hell out of me. You go to your controller settings, set neutral B in the **** This Move category, and now every time you accidentally do it while trying to B reverse or wave bounce, Link instead takes the arrow and shoves it through his eye socket then explodes--a far preferable outcome to actually using that damn move.

/salt

A good solution for any terrible/situational move that no one wants to use on accident. Marth Dsmash and Usmash. Sheik chain. Transform (AKA drop the tier list) Etc.

 

[Hylian]

Deeming moves "worthless" does nothing but halt metagame progression and just serves to tunnel vision players into a particular playstyle while limiting creativity and understanding. Sure, you may not use good moves often(because they aren't good), but that doesn't mean they don't have a place in competitive play. There have been many cases in many competitive games of top players using bad moves/tactics in such a way that it stuns people and helps them achieve victory.

 

[EmptySky00]

It was a joke.

I'd argue differently anyway. To improve, a player should try to discern what their good options are and stray away from their sub-optimal ones, finding new and more effective ways to apply the good options instead of wasting their time with bad, situational moves. As a player improves they may find the niche situations where those moves are applicable, but you shouldn't pretend a move is good where it isn't.

And Arrows are unequivocally bad if you're at mid-close range and you accidentally get them instead of a boomerang. <_< Punish central. They're good for long range harassment/edge guarding, but not in the situation where I want a boomerang, hence the point of my joking suggestion.

 

[Hylian]

Eh, still worth addressing as I see people complain about useless moves all over the boards :/.

 

[EmptySky00]

That's fair. I was mostly trying to start up some new discussion anyway since no one has said anything.

But refer to my edits I guess. My advice is to just not use the useless moves outside of their niche uses. Plain and simple.

Here's something else, and if you can at least humor me @ Hylian that would be appreciated.

Spoiler

This is Link's boomerang on frame 5 after release, the last frame of the sweetspot. This isn't so much what I want to ask about, but rather the next frame...

Spoiler

On the next frame (frame 6 and onward) there's roughly a 50ish% decrease in hitbox size, to the point where the hitbox no longer matches the boomerang. This causes it to go over people's heads if an animation dictates that they're crouching even slightly, and overall is just a nuisance that shouldn't exist.
Is there any chance at all that the hitbox size can be made uniform throughout the animation to make this sort of thing less of an annoyance? I literally see no reason against it. Toon Link doesn't have this problem (Either due to his height/boomerang size or a combination of the two) so I don't see it being an issue if Link's is alleviated a small amount.

Next, and much simpler:

Spoiler

The hitbox doesn't match the model here, and as such there are many instances where it seems like his Zair should hit but instead goes through people making the move feel unreliable.
In contrast,

Spoiler

The hitbox on his grab more wholly encompasses the claw. So if his Zair hitbox could be at least similar to this in some way that would be fantastic. Maybe not exactly this size, but something inbetween.. Thoughts/objections? I'm not asking for anything extreme here I don't think.

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

Hi so I read some of M2K's stuff, and I remember he said link is someone with great potential. The thing is, I don't really know what he means by that! I tried playingg link, and he just feels really awkward. I can basically only combo using tilts then going into to aerials, but that's basically all. Can anyone explain the potential link has?

 

[EmptySky00]

That was last version. This version he's mediocre (average) or lower imo. But people will debate that.

He's versatile with good hard hitting disjoints and overall solid but not amazing projectiles. Poor combo weight. Poor recovery. Relatively sluggish. Etc.


M2K's also an ass who jumps to conclusions and exaggerates like crazy. Don't listen to him. Ike is OP. #allyisgod

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

M2K's also an *** who jumps to conclusions and exaggerates like crazy. #allyisgod

Lol I when I heard M2K said link is broken I was like "Are you crazy?" When I heard he said Lucas was OP I was like "Heck ya!"
Ok thanks, been wondering about that for days

 

[EmptySky00]

Do keep in mind that I'm also a pessimist who attempts an often fails to be a realist. So take my opinion with a few grains of salt. Real talk though, this game is balanced enough at this point that you can use almost anyone and still keep up with the better characters. Link isn't inherently better than a large portion of the cast imo, but if you're good enough Link isn't such a handicap that you can't win regardless. But he's not the type of character that you can pick solely on his inherent assets and expect to see success.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Talking about "useless" moves...
When do you use Link's tilts ?

upTilt is good after a throw to follow with upAir strings I think. But else, I don't really know when to use it, during 3.02 I used it to cover me behind my back because it was insanely good, but now it's quite too slow and I end up being punished everytime I use it...

Ftilt... I don't really know, everytime I use it, it's an input error, turning around into jab failed = Ftilt
I don't think it has a really good killing power, it's quite slow.. maybe for edgeguard to punish a miss sweetspot, but in this case I prefer to use an upB.


Dtilt, well, not really bad, but so slow that I think DSmash is better in every way...

I'm sure I'm missing something, I need advices here

 

[EmptySky00]

Ftilt was nerfed into the ground this version because...


Ya you can tell me. Don't use it.

Utilt is good as an anti-air and for juggles and such.

I don't personally use Dtilt but it's alright. Jab - Dtilt and stuff. It combos. It breaks crouch early due to the meteor hitbox. And ya.

 

[Thor]

Ftilt can edgeguard Firefox/Firebird [I think - have seen it done]. It can also be used as a weird way to cover both sides of you if teams temporarily becomes a cluster (while this sounds bad, it's not... *that*... slow and usually less risky than up+B since ftilting your teammate won't risk killing them until high percents).
Dtilt meteoring people offstage is hilarious. It can also be used as a punish if you're a few percent shy of dair killing, since if you can hit with the meteor hitbox, you'll pop them up into a nice place to dair them [usually]. It also hits low enough to justify edgeguarding with it [meteor and also tipping someone and then nairing/fairing/uairing them after].
Utilt is good anti-air, juggler/combo starter, and... well actually that's really all you need out of it. It can also kill Puff, depending on how patient you play. [(In Melee, but the principle is the same) against one Puff player I know, he's bad enough at the MU for whatever reason that instead of trying to do bomb dair/uair or range dair/uair for earlyish KOs, I just play patiently and KO him with utilt (I take free uairs if given of course). Takes forever but as long as I'm careful (which feels easy vs him), we play ~6 minute games and I never lose.]

Also, not really related, but

Spoiler: My thoughts on Ike

>calls Ike broken
>plays spacies


(Ike is pretty good though.)

 

[Player -0]

Fair is better typically?

F-Tilt being nerfed was a bit weird. The reason given for it being nerfed was that it was too strong for the angle it sent (doesn't even send that horizontally). It was a bit less powerful than Ike's F-Tilt but sent more up iirc.

 

[GarmWyrda]

Ok thanx for reply

That's what I thought... not *that* useful, especially Ftilt...

And yeah, Dtilt meteor is hilarious ! :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOQ564DJ2rk#t=36m23s (watch for maybe 5seconds)
(or more if you want to critic my Link, I play with 2 friends, so you should see a Link twice every three matches ^^)

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Incoming wall of text, I apologize in advance. If you're uninterested in wario vs link matchup stuff on the wario side, you can look past this.

I'm not a Wario expert but I think ideal stages for him would probably be BF, Lylat, WW, FoD, and maybe YI:B. FoD actually sounds like a good CP, @ Mr.Pickle can correct me if I'm wrong.

That sounds about right, but I wouldn't count WW too much considering all the fatties do good on that stage, plus I have a feeling that stage isn't going to stick around in the competitive stage list for long. Add smashvegas, maybe GHZ as well, to that list and you're golden.

@ Mr.Pickle Here's the video that went up finally [it was posted today actually]. I'm sure you could provide all kinds of scathing commentary to both myself and my opponent, but at the same time you might be so insulting you forget to mention a few pieces of advice, so if you could focus on the advice and [if you want] edit in derogatives later, that would make sure you dish out as much Wario knowledge as you can.

Nah, I'm not going to insult any of you guys, I'm way too chill for that nonsense. Any how, I took a look at that video, and it honestly wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. You were playing the matchup decently, and he started off okish, then you kinda ran away with it.

So I can tell in the way he plays he's a nervous wreck, and doesn't have a good grasp of neutral, at least against link. As Player -0 pointed out, and I'm sure fuzzy knows this, he's using side b way way too much. It's not just off platforms either, he's using it early in strings, prematurely ending them when they should last much longer. The first frames of side b are definitely not what you should be going for. It's optimally used to cover tech away options, so think ganon down b...only you can jump out of it and it kills better.

I get the feeling he doesn't know exactly what his optimal punishes are either, as from a badly DIed chomp he could get a fair, a grab, or even a nair to name a few, which would all be better choices. His movement definitely needs work, as I didn't see nearly enough weaving about, I saw too many preemptive double jumps, and a little more dash dancing would've been nice. You got to remember that wario can play super left right brothers in the air, so that should be your primary way of moving. Some advice I can give him, is while he's weaving around during a jump, is try throwing out a fair, as it stops your boomerang and makes it come back to you.

Also, he needs to be grabbing way more, and I feel like down and back throw are way better than up throw. Putting link offstage or in a tech chase situation seems way better then what you get off uthrow, which isn't much. Also bad di on down throw leads to an fsmash, or pretty much anything for that matter, which link can't really deal with because of the angle it sends at.

Speaking of offstage, his edge guards need hella work. Ledge hop nair eats link's up b, so does dair if used correctly, and if he's on the ledge and you tether, all he has to do is ledge hop dair. If timed correctly, there isn't anything link can do to survive this, because you can't cancel your tether anymore, but I'd practice the timing first before using it in tourney, it's a great punish but it comes with a good bit of risk. An alternative, if he doesn't want to chance it, is to wait out your tether, then once you have to reel in and ledge hop, punish it with pretty much whatever, though I personally think bair is the best choice.

also because doing it lets him charge up waft [since they don't usually contest it and he wants to work Waft in more].

Wait are you talking about just doing side b to scare people into not wanting to interact with it, and then getting more time to charge fart, because of the space they gave you? Cause that move is too punishable to be using it like that. Camping portions of the stage and using basic movement options to stall for time seem better to me. Also food for thought, wario is charging his fart at the beginning of the match, when the announcer says 3, 2, 1, GO!...weird right.

We had played in pools earlier and I thoroughly cleaned him out on Yoshi's, and I generally beat him on Yoshi's and Warioware [which is why they were left open by me].

That seems really odd to me, wario should be destroying link on small stages like that. Like I imagine link should have a hard time keeping wario away on such a small stage, and he'll die super early to stuff he already died early from.

And if you think I'm throwing projectiles predictably, I am, because I'm only really trying to shut off one approach avenue, since that is primarily what happens [and you can see the results yourself].

You kinda are, but it's his fault for not knowing how to deal with you covering that area with a boomerang. To be fair, it can be pretty effective, considering that's where wario wants to be. You mixed it up a bit so I'll give you that, but there's no way you can't look predictable, I play against link....a lot....

So yeah there you go, I might have missed out on a couple things, but it's late and I'm tired. Hopefully I articulated my critique well enough, I'm better talking about that junk in person but this probably isn't too bad.

 

[Thor]

So I can tell in the way he plays he's a nervous wreck, and doesn't have a good grasp of neutral, at least against link. As Player -0 pointed out, and I'm sure fuzzy knows this, he's using side b way way too much. It's not just off platforms either, he's using it early in strings, prematurely ending them when they should last much longer. The first frames of side b are definitely not what you should be going for. It's optimally used to cover tech away options, so think ganon down b...only you can jump out of it and it kills better.

Use like Ganondorf down+B? Good to know.

I get the feeling he doesn't know exactly what his optimal punishes are either, as from a badly DIed chomp he could get a fair, a grab, or even a nair to name a few, which would all be better choices. His movement definitely needs work, as I didn't see nearly enough weaving about, I saw too many preemptive double jumps, and a little more dash dancing would've been nice. You got to remember that wario can play super left right brothers in the air, so that should be your primary way of moving. Some advice I can give him, is while he's weaving around during a jump, is try throwing out a fair, as it stops your boomerang and makes it come back to you.

For the record, the first time he ever actually landed fart against me was this set (or at least, I don't remember him landing any Wafts on me prior). So as dumb as it sounds, he was still improving on some stuff in the set [from where he was before this set, where I could practically treat Waft as purely an auxillary recovery move].

Also, he needs to be grabbing way more, and I feel like down and back throw are way better than up throw. Putting link offstage or in a tech chase situation seems way better then what you get off uthrow, which isn't much. Also bad di on down throw leads to an fsmash, or pretty much anything for that matter, which link can't really deal with because of the angle it sends at.

Especially pertinent advice since I shield too much (<_<). Out of curiosity [on the LInk end], do I DI behind Wario to avoid nasty dthrow followups? [Obviously there's DI mixup stuff sitting somewhere in there (fthrow twist DI), but just to avoid gross dthrow stuff, is it behind Wario or what?].

Speaking of offstage, his edge guards need hella work. Ledge hop nair eats link's up b, so does dair if used correctly, and if he's on the ledge and you tether, all he has to do is ledge hop dair. If timed correctly, there isn't anything link can do to survive this, because you can't cancel your tether anymore, but I'd practice the timing first before using it in tourney, it's a great punish but it comes with a good bit of risk. An alternative, if he doesn't want to chance it, is to wait out your tether, then once you have to reel in and ledge hop, punish it with pretty much whatever, though I personally think bair is the best choice.

Good advice... although can't Link instant pullup OR just tether pullup? I seem to have occasionally done the pull up that's kind of like in Melee where you immediately pull up without losing height [most notable when tethering really low on Yoshi's], but that might just be me [at which point I still obviously HAVE to do it and eat a bair...]. Or am I seeing things?

Wait are you talking about just doing side b to scare people into not wanting to interact with it, and then getting more time to charge fart, because of the space they gave you? Cause that move is too punishable to be using it like that. Camping portions of the stage and using basic movement options to stall for time seem better to me. Also food for thought, wario is charging his fart at the beginning of the match, when the announcer says 3, 2, 1, GO!...weird right.

I didn't say I thought this was a good use of it [and I told him not to]. But yeah, it's something like that.

That seems really odd to me, wario should be destroying link on small stages like that. Like I imagine link should have a hard time keeping wario away on such a small stage, and he'll die super early to stuff he already died early from.

I honestly used to try to figure out whether to ban FoD, Warioware, and Yoshi's, or ban GHZ and leave one of the small ones open [I don't like GHZ]. For whatever reason, I seem to perform well on Yoshi's in general [even vs like Lucas or Fox] - it might be that I play differently on small stages (it feels at least a little bit like that), and that change in how I play might be all the difference.

But I still would guess Wario does better on small stages, hence my bans.

You kinda are, but it's his fault for not knowing how to deal with you covering that area with a boomerang. To be fair, it can be pretty effective, considering that's where wario wants to be. You mixed it up a bit so I'll give you that, but there's no way you can't look predictable, I play against link....a lot....

So yeah there you go, I might have missed out on a couple things, but it's late and I'm tired. Hopefully I articulated my critique well enough, I'm better talking about that junk in person but this probably isn't too bad.

Honestly, when I played him, I had EXACTLY one goal in mind - shut down the shoulder bash before it reaches me. I do different stuff with projectiles vs different people [like I mix it up more (way more?) versus Sheik since sometimes I want her coming at me in the air and sometimes on the ground, depending on various things], but with this shoulder-bash heavy Wario, I just thought "Don't let him do the one thing I know he wants." It had worked in the past and once I got my stuff together, worked here too.

But I wouldn't use that strategy vs a Wario that didn't approach with only shoulder bash [that's asking to get rekt].

And a few more things... Warioware probably isn't going anywhere soon in our ruleset - our TO is a Ganondorf main and our stage list is just the bottom 2 rows [though I've considered pushing to remove Warioware and replace with Metal Cavern since Bowser's not broken there anymore and it has bigger blastzones than Warioware]. Other local areas have banned Norfair and Lylat, but he leaves those stages in [even though he hates Norfair and knows I love it (and I always beat him in bracket)].

I also had a discussion with our top player, and he told me he thinks I need to play differently, and gave me a bit of advice. I'm probably going to be changing my style up to be better in line with this [but I might fail and even if I succeed it could take quite a while].

Spoiler

Basically he said he doesn't think anyone plays Link correctly (even Hylian), and when I asked if he knew of someone who did, and rattled off names, he said HDL might be able to do it if he played PM. So I'm probably going to be watching how he worked way back when and keeping some of the basic ideas our top player gave me in mind to reform how I play. And as I said above, I don't expect immediate results, but if I can change how I play I think I'll be a lot better for it. I know for sure I started occasionally implementing just one thing he said and it's already paying off some.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice!

 

[Beorn]

I honestly used to try to figure out whether to ban FoD, Warioware, and Yoshi's, or ban GHZ and leave one of the small ones open [I don't like GHZ]. For whatever reason, I seem to perform well on Yoshi's in general [even vs like Lucas or Fox] - it might be that I play differently on small stages (it feels at least a little bit like that), and that change in how I play might be all the difference.

But I still would guess Wario does better on small stages, hence my bans.

As a Link main myself. The reasons you do better on yoshi's are

1. Link has a hard time killing at reasonable percents against someone that DIs. On yoshis the percents that stuff actually combos into kill moves are actually kill percents, unlike the larger stages. A randy fair or up-b from center stage will net you kills around the percents that other characters can easily kill link. So it's not always an up hill battle to pack on damage without dying super early to a gimp.

2. Links recovery is on the lower end of good. This matters a lot less on yoshi's. This can mean the difference between losing a stock at 40 or actually being able to recover.

3. Then of course the platform layout works well for links most favorable position, below the opponent.

 

[QuickLava]

Off topic I'm sure, but I've noticed recently while messing around with Link that I can land Jab -> Jab -> SH Footstool -> D-air every so often. It definitely isn't an actual combo, but it's such an unexpected option that it'll maybe work once or twice against a smart opponent. This is also nice against people at high percents, and it's especially helpful against the people that I play against who insist upon jumping out of hitstun like their lives depend on it. I don't know how useful this'll be in actual high level play, but hey, at the very least it could be a viable novelty option.

 

[Thor]

Off topic I'm sure, but I've noticed recently while ****ing around with Link that I can land Jab -> Jab -> SH Footstool -> D-air every so often. It definitely isn't an actual combo, but it's such an unexpected option that it'll maybe work once or twice against a smart opponent. This is also nice against people at high percents, and it's especially helpful against the people that I play against who insist upon jumping out of hitstun like their lives depend on it. I don't know how useful this'll be in actual high level play, but hey, at the very least it could be a viable novelty option.

The "footstool -> dair" is the part that interests me. I may actually have a reason to see about working footstools into my game now [besides simply mashing taunt if someone goes below me offstage to see if I can't cheese them out of a stock]. Sounds like it could at least set up a tech chase, so if you can footstool them where they're above a platform... good stuff.

As a Link main myself. The reasons you do better on yoshi's are

1. Link has a hard time killing at reasonable percents against someone that DIs. On yoshis the percents that stuff actually combos into kill moves are actually kill percents, unlike the larger stages. A randy fair or up-b from center stage will net you kills around the percents that other characters can easily kill link. So it's not always an up hill battle to pack on damage without dying super early to a gimp.

2. Links recovery is on the lower end of good. This matters a lot less on yoshi's. This can mean the difference between losing a stock at 40 or actually being able to recover.

3. Then of course the platform layout works well for links most favorable position, below the opponent.

I think the 3rd thing is more relevant [nair someone onto a ptatform -> DACUS underneath it to continue hitting them is something I like doing], but this whole explanation makes sense. Will keep it in mind...

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Use like Ganondorf down+B? Good to know.

To be exact, the difference is you need to go for a specific part of the move in order for it to be effective. Ganon's covers more options, because the hitbox is always good, while wario's is safer because of the size of the hitbox and that he can jump out of it

For the record, the first time he ever actually landed fart against me was this set (or at least, I don't remember him landing any Wafts on me prior). So as dumb as it sounds, he was still improving on some stuff in the set [from where he was before this set, where I could practically treat Waft as purely an auxillary recovery move].

Ah I see, well practice makes perfect.

Especially pertinent advice since I shield too much (<_<). Out of curiosity [on the LInk end], do I DI behind Wario to avoid nasty dthrow followups? [Obviously there's DI mixup stuff sitting somewhere in there (fthrow twist DI), but just to avoid gross dthrow stuff, is it behind Wario or what?].

You DI it like peach down throw, which is down and away.

Good advice... although can't Link instant pullup OR just tether pullup? I seem to have occasionally done the pull up that's kind of like in Melee where you immediately pull up without losing height [most notable when tethering really low on Yoshi's], but that might just be me [at which point I still obviously HAVE to do it and eat a bair...]. Or am I seeing things?

Not sure exactly, but I want to say he can't. @ Beorn confirm please.

I didn't say I thought this was a good use of it [and I told him not to]. But yeah, it's something like that.

Ah, well he'll grow out of it eventually.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice!

Glad to help mang.

 

[Beorn]

I've never seen Link do an instant pull in all the thousands of pm matches I've played as him, but I have seen Zss and ivy do them randomly. Maybe it's an up-b tether thing.

Yeh you pretty much have to eat something. When you tether and they read it.

Fun fact... Marth can get a free tipper fsmash on link because of how link pops up slightly if you tether form a low angle. When the zair snaps to the stage link will quickly snap into tether position which pops up his hurtbubbles for punishment. Also depending on the angle you tether link could swing into this position



Debug mode is on here. He is not considered on the ledge and therefore not invincible in this state. This is why I don't even try to tether against marth, Dk or Yoshi. You just die, hah...

and this is the frame after that one for the lulz

 

[Player -0]

You don't tether if they're there. At all. Everrr

 

[LordKKs]

Well, Link seems better than pit at least.

 

[Thor]

Well, Link seems better than pit at least.

Can't tell if whining about 3.5 Pit or just thinking this is true.

It's arguable. Pit's got just as strong a gimping game [stronger? Not sure how arrows work now, but steering them into people seems good, plus a meteor on not-dtilt], and an actual recovery (he is legitimately not easy to gimp, whereas Ripple edgeguarded the heck out of me here:http://www.twitch.tv/isu_smash/c/6287938 and yes I suck [I like to think I had passable survival DI] and yes I didn't show any real counterplay to his edgeguardnig but the only other 'Zard I've played doesn't edgeguard with anything besides dtilt so it was a bit new].I think Pit has more merit than people credit him for, but I think they're both usable characters in 3.5. Pit however suffers from what I'll call "broken-flight" syndrome - people flocked to him since he was amazing, and nerfed as he was they all ran away, leaving the true Pit mains disgruntled (or appreciative that they dumped the frauds) and far fewer of them, and so fewer tournament results etc.

 

[Wolf_]

Not sure what you mean when you say "re-learn." Link wasn't affected to that extent. I also don't think throw followups were changed THAT much but...

Mostly meant me getting good again lol I need to get more practice in, but my training partner has carpel tunnel(spelling?) soooooo....... yeaaaa

 

[Player -0]

Hope he gets better!