3.5 Link Discussion

[Zoa]

@ Hylian
Empty's remark about dsmash reminded me of something. Can you confirm if the ceiling of FD was raised, or if the latest version of PM has an increase in gravity, fall speed, fast fall speed, or some kind of physics change across the board? I swear between 3.02 and 3.5 that characters who would get KO-ed at X percent with the same exact DI from moves (like Lucario usmash) live a few percents longer.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Ya that's so stupid lmfao. I didn't notice since I seldom use that move. F tilt the meta slayer lmfao


Speaking of kill power, some guy lived my dsmash at 176 :D I think that's stupid personally.

Yeah apparently the only way to kill with dsmash is charging it for a read. Stupid indeed.

 

[Beorn]

Guys, go into debug. Dsmash has multiple hit bubbles. If you hit with the ones close to link it will hit for more % and kill around 120 on average fallers. If you hit with the outer hits it's 13% and is used to combo. The latter hit is the one you guys are hitting with.

 

[EmptySky00]

I know it has a strong and weaker hitbox. But 176? Lol. I think the weak one is too weak. Mario's did 18% flat. And was a frame or so faster. I mean come on. Unnecessary difficulty to kill with it sometimes. I guess you have to sacrifice it to the combo god.

I don't actually care that much it's whatever.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Guys, go into debug. Dsmash has multiple hit bubbles. If you hit with the ones close to link it will hit for more % and kill around 120 on average fallers. If you hit with the outer hits it's 13% and is used to combo. The latter hit is the one you guys are hitting with.

I don't have access to debug because all I have is a CCP. PMDT plz fix. But yeah, Link needs more kill moves not more combo moves imo.

 

[Hylian]

Tech skill that I consider gone now are Dacus, bombsliding, tether regrab and tether canceling. All of which I ****ing loved to do. Like, all the time. I consider Dacus to be gone now because there's literally no point in trying to perform it. The sliding distance is just way too short to have any sort of true benefit. So yeah, the removal of those techs are really dissapointing to me and it takes away a lot of what I enjoyed about Link. And the overnerfs really piss me off as well. I believe I've posted here before on that. It was on the last thread. So not only do they take away my favorite techs, but they also made Link mediocre.

All I really like about this Link's changes are his hype *** combos once you land them, his bair waveland (which you mentioned and hell yeah you're right), and the shorter jumpsquat.

Uh..what lol. You know we changed the dacus timing to be the same with every character right? I think it's pretty easy.

 

[EmptySky00]

I thought the old timing felt more fluid but that's from doing it for years. It's just an adjustment thing. Before, I would always get the right distance when I was playing good. It was just intuitive to me.

Real question: what's the difference in distance between both frames of the window? It used to be nowhere-good-WTF TELEPORT. Now I can't tell which one I get or discern from each. I could do debug tomorrow I guess.

Edit: this is absolutely the best menu music https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c9SRzqzavDY

 

[Beorn]

Uh..what lol. You know we changed the dacus timing to be the same with every character right? I think it's pretty easy.

Yeh, this made things more consistent. I agree it's not a difficult timing, but it is more difficult than it used to be. Try pressing the buttons much more closely together. Link had one of the easiest timing for dacus in the game before 3.5. I still think link is one of the worst characters in the game right now, but you guys should like that he is harder to play. I for one am pretty sick of people saying my character takes no skill, because of hard feelings from 3.02.

 

[Thor]

No guys don't worry, your character can totally win a national, Hax just needs to

Sorry, wrong boards, read all this and thought I was on the ******* Melee Falcon boards when everyone thought like Hax.

Biggest load of johns and complaints I've seen in a while.

Yeh, this made things more consistent. I agree it's not a difficult timing, but it is more difficult than it used to be. Try pressing the buttons much more closely together. Link had one of the easiest timing for dacus in the game before 3.5. I still think link is one of the worst characters in the game right now, but you guys should like that he is harder to play. I for one am pretty sick of people saying my character takes no skill, because of hard feelings from 3.02.

This character sux ohmahgawd I need a character broken like 3.02 Pit

Link is definitely one of the top half characters in this game. He has a ton of tools - his jab is amazing for setting up into ftilt, dtilt, dsmash, or grab, which helps him a lot vs speedy characters, his rang is still really good (it does the job it needs to of restraining someone's airspace or setting up for combos), no one needs his bombs to be smash thrown from one platform of PS2 past the other (if memory serves that's how far they go), learn to DI if you never have time to bomb jump [seriously, I bomb jumped after getting hit by Falcon's knee at 33:55 here: [http://www.twitch.tv/legacygamesrosemount/b/609577028] - do you like only fight Sheik and always try to amsah tech her fair or something???], bair isn't necessarily great but it's far from terrible (just use the first hit low to the ground if you can't seem to get it to link, it has super low landing lag for setting up a jab, utilt, grab, dsmash or even up+b if they're airborne).

I'm sure other complaints have been had, but note that if you liked DACUS in any previous version of PM, they took the longest and second longest verisions of the DACUS for Link from 3.02 and made those his two current lengths.

Also, what the heck is this nonsense about "We should like he is harder to play because of people being salty about 3.02?" Dude, if I'm in a tournament, I'm playing to WIN THE GAME, not avoid making others have "hard feelings." [This probably invites some argument about "If you're playing to win, why you use Link?" Well, I'm best with him, so... best chances, duh.]

That said, I've already stated elsewhere I think Link was net buffed, since he still has almost all his amazing tools (bombs throws are shorter and the rang was changed slightly but both still do their job very well) and he doesn't have to deal with teleport hover nair/fair, Pit being Pit, Fox usmash KOing super early, PK fire on shield, or a variety of other things.

 

[Soft Serve]

No guys don't worry, your character can totally win a national, Hax just needs to

Sorry, wrong boards, read all this and thought I was on the ******* Melee Falcon boards when everyone thought like Hax.

Biggest load of johns and complaints I've seen in a while.

Yes, this.

top half is really generous though, I can definitely see him being viable but link got nerfed really really hard, and he was very overrated in 3.0 to begin with. I dont think he is top 20. Probably not bottom 5.

 

[J3f]

Yes, this.

top half is really generous though, I can definitely see him being viable but link got nerfed really really hard, and he was very overrated in 3.0 to begin with. I dont think he is top 20. Probably not bottom 5.

Yeah, between Mew2King saying Link was the best character in the game and Link being a noob killer Link was way over rated. The tournament results weren't bearing this out either. Most tournaments were still dominated by Spacies with Pit and Lucas capable of winning a few here and there. Lucas was full of Jank and Pit was really well designed, but maybe just a little too fast or hard hitting, they were some of the few characters I would have considered on par with Fox in 3.02. Link was very capable back then, but wasn't dominating the Meta. Some characters, like Bowser, couldn't deal with him at all, but that was because of their own terrible design. The only reason Link did so well was that he wasn't a Melee top-tier with a well established Meta. Given another year, Link wouldn't have the surprise factor and would have fallen out of a lot of tournaments' Top 8's.

Also anyone who says that Link's recovery was broken, Consider the following: Link couldn't Air Stall and to make a recovery from any reasonable distance he had to take damage, not only that but he had to have enough time to draw and throw a bomb while falling so small blast zone stages or spikes/meteors spelled death for him. Bomb jumps also share the same weakness as Ness's PK Thunder 2, it's really easy to intercept and punish. If Link was close enough to the stage to Tether then you didn't really earn the K.O. anyway. Link's weight is just so that everyone comboed him pretty easily so there's no excuse for not being able to send him far enough off stage that he has to rely on Bomb Jumps.

 

[Beorn]

No guys don't worry, your character can totally win a national, Hax just needs to

Sorry, wrong boards, read all this and thought I was on the ******* Melee Falcon boards when everyone thought like Hax.

Biggest load of johns and complaints I've seen in a while.





Link is definitely one of the top half characters in this game. He has a ton of tools - his jab is amazing for setting up into ftilt, dtilt, dsmash, or grab, which helps him a lot vs speedy characters, his rang is still really good (it does the job it needs to of restraining someone's airspace or setting up for combos), no one needs his bombs to be smash thrown from one platform of PS2 past the other (if memory serves that's how far they go), learn to DI if you never have time to bomb jump [seriously, I bomb jumped after getting hit by Falcon's knee at 33:55 here: [http://www.twitch.tv/legacygamesrosemount/b/609577028] - do you like only fight Sheik and always try to amsah tech her fair or something???], bair isn't necessarily great but it's far from terrible (just use the first hit low to the ground if you can't seem to get it to link, it has super low landing lag for setting up a jab, utilt, grab, dsmash or even up+b if they're airborne).

I'm sure other complaints have been had, but note that if you liked DACUS in any previous version of PM, they took the longest and second longest verisions of the DACUS for Link from 3.02 and made those his two current lengths.

Also, what the heck is this nonsense about "We should like he is harder to play because of people being salty about 3.02?" Dude, if I'm in a tournament, I'm playing to WIN THE GAME, not avoid making others have "hard feelings." [This probably invites some argument about "If you're playing to win, why you use Link?" Well, I'm best with him, so... best chances, duh.]

That said, I've already stated elsewhere I think Link was net buffed, since he still has almost all his amazing tools (bombs throws are shorter and the rang was changed slightly but both still do their job very well) and he doesn't have to deal with teleport hover nair/fair, Pit being Pit, Fox usmash KOing super early, PK fire on shield, or a variety of other things.

Whoa, calm down man. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I think Link is one of the worst characters in a game with very close tiers. I believe he has many options and useful moves, but has nothing outstanding other than his nairs lingering hitbubbles. His onstage just doesn't make up for his incredibly easy to gimp recovery, poor mobility, poor oos options, bad grab, generally slow moves, and mediocre kill power

You and Hylian can think Link is good, and Empty and Umbreon can think he's bad. I doubt he's going to be buffed anytime soon. Few people play him in tournament anymore aside from ninja link and a couple of others, and no one sees much success with him (I would honestly love to see more sets of link doing well in tournament). No reason to get upset at those of us that feel he's bad.

Yes, it bothers me to win with link and have people jump down my throat about how dumb he is. It doesn't make me feel too good. I would rather them acknowledge that they were outplayed. Though the more I play link the more people I see in the scene acknowledge that he got nerfed far too hard. So it's becoming a lot less prevalent to get salt.

Also just to make my stance clear. I think link needs a few frames or points of damage here and there to be a not bad character. I don't agree with empty about wanting a bunch of stuff from 3.02 to come back. I love the new bombs for instance.

The buffs I would like to see on link would be:

Fixed hitbubble on tip of Uair
Visual fix on utilts first few frames where the sword is in front of link and goes into the zaxis.
2% added to last hit of up-b (giving you 2 more shots at a bomb jump, and more uses onstage without losing recovery options)
Melee bomb knockback with slightly increased scaling.(this would also make bomb jumping less effective)
1 frame off the start of Jab 1 ( going from frame 6 to 5) right now this and dash attack are his fastest moves and that's sad.
Lower angle of ftilt (this move is very situational and you don't get much off a hit even on a recovering opponent)


These I would just like to see done, so that he becomes a bit more consistent with the rest of the cast, but they don't need to happen to make him good.

Sweet spot nair from 11 to 12% ( This would make more sense with the rest of the games nairs, give him slightly more advantage on shield and kill slightly earlier)

Utilt from 9 to 10 % (I'll never understand this one. This is not a fast utilt nor is it safe in anyway. It made sense in 3.02 when it was a faster move. Fun fact, Foxes utilt does 12 >_> and kills, but he is an exception to the rules)

 

[EmptySky00]

New bombs feel terrible and I can't see any merit in them lol. I didn't even want that much from 3.02. Just the **** he lost that was unnecessary. But hey whatever.

Both Umbreon and I agree that he's not irredeemable and he's workable now. Just not particularly good.


And Jesus Christ Thor your salt rivals my own. A BATTLE TO THE DEATH I SAY!
I just actually read that diatribe through and I think you're just blatantly wrong on so many points lol. If I had a computer I'd point them out but... Phone typing.

But real talk falcon is terrible.

I don't want to ***** or whine I just was overly emphatic to get across the degree of which I disapproved of the excessive nerfs. I think getting annoyed to some degree is justified.

 

[Thor]

Yes, it bothers me to win with link and have people jump down my throat about how dumb he is. It doesn't make me feel too good. I would rather them acknowledge that they were outplayed. Though the more I play link the more people I see in the scene acknowledge that he got nerfed far too hard. So it's becoming a lot less prevalent to get salt.

2% added to last hit of up-b (giving you 2 more shots at a bomb jump, and more uses onstage without losing recovery options)

Fun fact, Foxes utilt does 12 >_> and kills, but he is an exception to the rules)

I don't understand why you care what someone says about the character you use. First of all, I doubt they're super good to begin with [so they're trying to john, not have legitimate complaints about an issue with balance], and even if they are, do you think (in Melee) Mango cares if Hbox or Hax were to complain about him using a broken character called Fox [for when Hax played Falcon]? He might switch and beat them up, but if he's serious about winning and that fails, he'll pick Fox and not care.

Bomb jumps don't stale up+b, but hitting with any part of up+B on someone does. Are you stating that you want to have up+b not need to be fresh? Or did they change that from Melee, where bomb jumping stales the up+B? (And if it does, that's dumb, plz revert PMBR.) I don't think it does because I never have trouble bomb jumping multiple times if I've hit a bomb recently, but maybe I just did more hits to the opponent than I realized...

Fox utilt is silly, I'll give you that, but it doesn't have the range of Link's, or combo into itself as easily. I wouldn't mind the old speed, but a 1% damage buff doesn't seem to address your issue with it.

Jab1 speed buff would be nice, would help vs Falcon especially.

Yes to the sword actually hitting where the sword visually hits [uair fix, and I don't know what this utilt issue is but probably not a bad idea to fix it].

As to the rest of your post, we'll agree to disagree I guess. When we comment on things I'll try not to bump heads or whatever.

I'm also not really that mad. Few things truly anger me (one thing that I really rage about on here, yet am not actually that mad about [irritated, yes], is people misuing the word "objectively", especially when they think it strengthens an argument.)

New bombs feel terrible and I can't see any merit in them lol. I didn't even want that much from 3.02. Just the **** he lost that was unnecessary. But hey whatever.

Both Umbreon and I agree that he's not irredeemable and he's workable now. Just not particularly good.


And Jesus Christ Thor your salt rivals my own. A BATTLE TO THE DEATH I SAY!

I don't have PM 3.5 Wi-Fi, or I'd agree to this. I can get it if I have to, I guess, but it'd have to be this week or something, since I go back to college Saturday and I'm probably not able to bring my Wii [or use campus Wi-Fi even if I can bring it].

New bombs remind me of Melee bombs, and both do what they need to do (at least as I see it, and some good Melee Link mains appreciate them in Melee for what it's worth). Not saying they couldn't probably be better, but I see a buff as unnecessary.

 

[EmptySky00]

The nerf back then was far more unnecessary than buffing them back is right now lmfao. Link was bad in melee why are we reverting stuff for no reason.


If I could net play I'd be down for playing you nogs for funsies but alas.

 

[Beorn]

Yes hitting your own bombs does stale up-b.

Foxes utilt does combo into itself more easily ( then combos into an 18% dsmash or an 18% uair ect). Like I said. Links utilt being slow and low damage (same damage as the much faster tlink version but with more range) just bothers me. It's not something he needs by any means.

I just re-read your previous post... jab jab-anything is not a combo. Jabs are easily DIed. Jab jab dsmash is the closest to true combo you can get. (Dsmash is a 7 frame move.) links ftilt is exceedingly slow. I have no idea why anyone you fight would get hit by this, or what you would get out of hitting someone with a move that doesn't kill onstage until 160 or so with any DI. You would be much better off using the faster up-b option for the kill. They hit at the same ****ty Sakurai angle, but ftilt is 14 frames and hits much less hard.

 

[Thor]

The nerf back then was far more unnecessary than buffing them back is right now lmfao. Link was bad in melee why are we reverting stuff for no reason.


If I could net play I'd be down for playing you nogs for funsies but alas.

The only thing I asked to be reverted is to have up+B not stale when you hit a bomb, because that prevents multiple bomb jumps. This is totally possible in Melee, so making it impossible in PM is just nonsensical (I can't understand it at all because Link DOES take a bit of damage from it AND Snake can bomb jump infinitely if he can find the right place to tech on - why can't Link???).

If anything else is explicitly worse than Melee, I'd also call for reverting it to Melee. Nothing else I can think of has this property, so I'm not asking for anything else to be reverted.

Yes hitting your own bombs does stale up-b.

Foxes utilt does combo into itself more easily ( then combos into an 18% dsmash or an 18% uair ect). Like I said. Links utilt being slow and low damage (same damage as the much faster tlink version but with more range) just bothers me. It's not something he needs by any means.

I just re-read your previous post... jab jab-anything is not a combo. Jabs are easily DIed. Jab jab dsmash is the closest to true combo you can get. (Dsmash is a 7 frame move.) links ftilt is exceedingly slow. I have no idea why anyone you fight would get hit by this, or what you would get out of hitting someone with a move that doesn't kill onstage until 160 or so with any DI. You would be much better off using the faster up-b option for the kill. They hit at the same ****ty Sakurai angle, but ftilt is 14 frames and hits much less hard.

Fox utilt combos into itself easier at lower percents, but not mid percents, and Fox utilt has a MUCH smaller range meaning slight DI escapes it much better than escaping Link's utilt with a bit of DI. Link's utilt may not always kill, but it's reliable vs floaties and vs fast fallers sets up for uair or even dair, which DO kill.

I usually jab people out of mid-air, or am jabbing their shield for shield pressure. Seriously, go watch those videos I posted in the video thread (I did add a link to one of the videos and a perfectly fine time to start watching if you wanted to not spend any time looking for precise times - just open the link, move it to around the time I gave, and start watching, because I'm playing for over 10 minutes on either side of that time given, so you'll see me doing the things I talk about in those videos).

I almost never jab jab ftilt, but I've done it once or twice when they SDI jab1 but don't land in shield. I do it in the match vs Falco once in that video. I'm admittedly looking for fsmash, but I'm considering adding more ftilt since it directly moves to edgeguarding instead of having to then nair or fair them offstage.

Jab jab grab is mainly for when you've done jab jab X enough that they CC shield. The others are tricks that let you set up combos. None of them are true combos per se, in the way that late uair -> early uair at mid percents on a spacie is, but Link's jab is amazing at restraining movement and stopping moves (Falcon's SH knee being a great example). Then he's airborne so if he lands with any attack you can almost for sure get a dsmash (since landing lag is like 4 frames and he has to fall).

Link's dsmash is a comboing tool - you dsmash them then either go for uair, nair, or fair, depending on the DI. Or catch the landing with a grab or more jabs/ftilt. You'll see me do all this stuff if you watch the video I linked. Up+b is laggier, but sets up for other stuff (namely edgeguards). I rarely go for jab jab up+B though, because if it's CC shielded, you're in a world of hurt (wheras CC shielding jab3 [which I also sometimes use], dtilt, or dsmash is less likely to get you massively punished, and shielding grab doesn't work).

---------

TL;DR: Watch the videos, see how I implement jab jab dsmash and jab jab dtilt, and how I follow up on dsmash. I think you'll have a greater appreciation for jab shenanigans (and maybe dsmash) after it.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think you'll appreciate jab more when the opponent crouches on reaction then initiates a prison **** scene. It can work, but it has holes. And jab jab ftilt is a laughable notion. I wish his jab was like frame 5 for full range. Frame 7 makes me sadface.


Don't get me wrong, I approve of jab dsmash and ****. If you catch them slightly in the air you should be able to grab them because of landing lag then that leads into...

Stick to dsmash LOL

 

[Hylian]

You can't react to a 6 frame move.

 

[EmptySky00]

You can't react to a 6 frame move.

But you can crouch in hit stun for the second hit. And your opponent will be wanting to crouch you anyway. And it's effectively frame 7. The frame 6 hitbox is irrelevant unless you're poorly spaced.

Tested. Due to hitlag and such you have 20 frames to react crouch jab 2. Even I can do that ****. You don't even have to think about it. Just recognize you're being hit and that holding down for everything is abnormally good and do that.

 

[Hylian]

But you can crouch in hit stun for the second hit. And your opponent will be wanting to crouch you anyway. And it's effectively frame 7. The frame 6 hitbox is irrelevant unless you're poorly spaced.

Tested. Due to hitlag and such you have 20 frames to react crouch jab 2. Even I can do that ****. You don't even have to think about it. Just recognize you're being hit and that holding down for everything is abnormally good and do that.

Yes, and as Link you can also react to them CCing your 2nd jab, and just do Jabx3. They are going to be in ASDI not true CC unless they CC'd the first hit which allows you to go into jabx3.

 

[EmptySky00]

You (link) have much less time to react to that but yes that option is there. I don't think that breaks crouch though. RAPID JAB GO. I'll **** around with it.

Glad after landing a move (ie. they got hit not you) you still have to go through a bunch of stupid extra considerations because of this stupid mechanic. Link would be like.. 70% better if it didn't exist.

 

[Hylian]

It's actually really good because people will try to SDI in and past link(which like..isn't possible) if they haven't experienced it yet, or they will keep stubbornly CCing and taking all the stab hits, realize they can't counterattack, and then roll towards you which is punishable on reaction(almost, I usually try to predict the roll and just stop jabbing when I notice them DIing out).

And yeah, I'm not a fan of CC either. I wish it at least had diminishing returns through the match or something.

 

[Beorn]

You can't react to a 6 frame move.

Like empty said. CC it on the second hit, or as my training partener does. Just Get hit by the first then SDI the second hit out and jump. Links jab looks good until people realize what to do. Yes a frame 6 (well 7) jab is impossible to react to, but when muscle memory kicks in you want your attack to be the one that hits first.

Also lol rapid jab. This move alone saves link more often and in more situations than any move besides nair. I honestly think it's super janky and should be worse. Your only option during a rapid jab shouldn't just be run away and reset to neutral. Dis move though


So does the link board sleep? I feel like it's more active at 4am than I've ever seen it.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think cc is just a bad mechanic that hurts/benefits some far too much and warps the game and the best way to balance it is to remove it. But whatevs.

My issue is that any strategy that relies on opposing ignorance isn't actually good at top levels. It's just jank that doesn't work in the face of good players and stops working quickly against mediocre ones.


I'm just a raging insomniac. Don't mind me.

 

[Hylian]

I think cc is just a bad mechanic that hurts/benefits some far too much and warps the game and the best way to balance it is to remove it. But whatevs.

My issue is that any strategy that relies on opposing ignorance isn't actually good at top levels. It's just jank that doesn't work in the face of good players and stops working quickly against mediocre ones.


I'm just a raging insomniac. Don't mind me.

This is Project M. People don't know every intricacy in the game from years of playing it. Links rapid jab is not jank, it's a legit tool to beat CCing. It always works and there isn't really counterplay to it. The jank is when people just keep sitting in it taking tons of damage because they think they can punish you, but even if they don't do that and DI out right away you are still in a good position, and you still avoided their CC and gave them %. If you guys want to ignore Links jab as a legitimate tool just from preconceived notions involving frame data then sure, but you are missing out on one of the best jabs in the game and an amazing tool in neutral. I've used rapid jab against players like Sethlon, Prof, Mango...it works against good players lmao.

 

[EmptySky00]

This is Project M. People don't know every intricacy in the game from years of playing it. Links rapid jab is not jank, it's a legit tool to beat CCing. It always works and there isn't really counterplay to it. The jank is when people just keep sitting in it taking tons of damage because they think they can punish you, but even if they don't do that and DI out right away you are still in a good position, and you still avoided their CC and gave them %. If you guys want to ignore Links jab as a legitimate tool just from preconceived notions involving frame data then sure, but you are missing out on one of the best jabs in the game and an amazing tool in neutral. I've used rapid jab against players like Sethlon, Prof, Mango...it works against good players lmao.

I meant the staying in it and taking tons of damage because they didn't know etc. I know it beats CC or whatever. "One of the best in the game" is a running joke. Did you know Link has one of the best recoveries in the game? @jtm94

 

[Hylian]

Link had one of the best recoveries in the game in 3.02, I would rate his on the lower end of the cast now. His jab is amazing however. Most jabs just serve one purpose, and that is interruption. Links is one of the few that offers options, and is one of the best anti-air jabs in the game next to zard(possibly better due to disjoint). Just because it's one of the slowest jabs doesn't make it bad, frames aren't everything.

 

[EmptySky00]

I never said it was.

Everyone said that everyone had one of the best recoveries in the game. That was the joke.

 

[Thor]

It's actually really good because people will try to SDI in and past link(which like..isn't possible) if they haven't experienced it yet, or they will keep stubbornly CCing and taking all the stab hits, realize they can't counterattack, and then roll towards you which is punishable on reaction(almost, I usually try to predict the roll and just stop jabbing when I notice them DIing out).

And yeah, I'm not a fan of CC either. I wish it at least had diminishing returns through the match or something.

You can SDI CC shine Link out of it, it's happened to me. Frame 1 moves are good, who knew?

They still take like 10+% though, and usually they are just mashing shine so if they whiff a few times the percent quickly climbs higher. Also, many just SDI out since timing's super duper tight on CC shine.

I pretty much never jab ftilt except if I anti-air someone right next to the ledge at high percent. To be completely honest, I never used to use it ever until recently, when I tried it and saw it might have limited applications. Almost strictly worse than jab dtilt/jab dsmash or jab grab, but it can do wonky things. [I've managed to do jab jab ftilt to push someone offstage, and then read their getup option off the ledge for a dair KO (ledgehopping like a fiend).]

I'd have to say jab [or jab jab] dsmash = jab [or jab jab] grab > jab [you get the point] dtilt >> jab up+B >>>>>>>>> jab ftilt. Rapid jab and standard jab3 is probably up around jab grab but I don't know so I'm not gonna add it in, since my rapid jabs and jab3 stab are not frequently used (to keep people honest about jumping over dsmash/grab).

I'm not really a fan of CCing either.

 

[Beorn]

Like empty said. CC it on the second hit, or as my training partener does. Just Get hit by the first then SDI the second hit out and jump. Links jab looks good until people realize what to do. Yes a frame 6 (well 7) jab is impossible to react to, but when muscle memory kicks in, you want your attack to be the one that hits first.

This is Project M. People don't know every intricacy in the game from years of playing it. Links rapid jab is not jank, it's a legit tool to beat CCing. It always works and there isn't really counterplay to it. The jank is when people just keep sitting in it taking tons of damage because they think they can punish you, but even if they don't do that and DI out right away you are still in a good position, and you still avoided their CC and gave them %. If you guys want to ignore Links jab as a legitimate tool just from preconceived notions involving frame data then sure, but you are missing out on one of the best jabs in the game and an amazing tool in neutral. I've used rapid jab against players like Sethlon, Prof, Mango...it works against good players lmao.

I use links jab very often. His jabs are very good, but his rapid jab is kinda stupid. When there isn't really counterplay to a move I would call it pretty jank. The only people that just sit in his jab, or try and DI in don't know what they are doing against link in pm. I've also had people just keep trying to sdi rapid jab because they got so pissed that I kept using it and there was no way to punish me for it once it started on hit.

No one here is saying links jabs aren't good, but they are in the top 4 slowest in the game along with zelda, Mew two, and D3. Which ends up being a problem when he doesn't have a single move faster than frame 7 on the ground. D3 also has this problem, but D3 actually has a grab to threaten with, and counter shields.

Link is slow and his moves are easily CCd besides rapid jab. He has, as you have said, a recovery that is " on the lower end of the cast". His projectiles are not great aside from rang. His grab is one of the worst in the game next to toon link. His mobility is bad, along with his OOs options. His off stage game is one of the most limited in the cast (just recover low if he goes out to nair or bair you and punish him for it). I've seen many links play as well as countless matches I've played, and link regularly brings other characters into the 170 to 200% range, because of a lack of safe kill options or combos into kill moves against anyone that knows how to DI his rang.

I may be selling link short here, but name more than ten, hell more than five other characters with so many weaknesses, and nothing really exceptional to make up for them. He's basically like link is in every game, lots of options that are mediocre.

Again Link may still be a viable character in this game of pretty amazing balance, but you can't possibly think he isn't bottom 5. I will continue to play him and try to optimize as much as I can, but I can't see this link doing well in the tournament scene. I have seen you play this link in around 10 matches now. I have seen nothing that changes my mind, and I respect you as a player quite a bit. I would like you or anyone else to change my mind, and show me that link is not a bottom 5 character in 3.5.

 

[Thor]

I use links jab very often. His jabs are very good, but his rapid jab is kinda stupid. When there isn't really counterplay to a move I would call it pretty jank. The only people that just sit in his jab, or try and DI in don't know what they are doing against link in pm. I've also had people just keep trying to sdi rapid jab because they got so pissed that I kept using it and there was no way to punish me for it once it started on hit.

No one here is saying links jabs aren't good, but they are in the top 4 slowest in the game along with zelda, Mew two, and D3. Which ends up being a problem when he doesn't have a single move faster than frame 7 on the ground. D3 also has this problem, but D3 actually has a grab to threaten with, and counter shields.

Link is slow and his moves are easily CCd besides rapid jab. He has, as you have said, a recovery that is " on the lower end of the cast". His projectiles are not great aside from rang. His grab is one of the worst in the game next to toon link. His mobility is bad, along with his OOs options. His off stage game is one of the most limited in the cast (just recover low if he goes out to nair or bair you and punish him for it). I've seen many links play as well as countless matches I've played, and link regularly brings other characters into the 170 to 200% range, because of a lack of safe kill options or combos into kill moves against anyone that knows how to DI his rang.

I may be selling link short here, but name more than ten, hell more than five other characters with so many weaknesses, and nothing really exceptional to make up for them. He's basically like link is in every game, lots of options that are mediocre.

Again Link may still be a viable character in this game of pretty amazing balance, but you can't possibly think he isn't bottom 5. I will continue to play him and try to optimize as much as I can, but I can't see this link doing well in the tournament scene. I have seen you play this link in around 10 matches now. I have seen nothing that changes my mind, and I respect you as a player quite a bit. I would like you or anyone else to change my mind, and show me that link is not a bottom 5 character in 3.5.

I'm not in the mood to fight over this [especially given our substantial difference of opinion], but I will nitpick that Samus has a much worse grab than Link. Link's rang being great is pretty special in and of itself, because it does so much to help him zone or go in as needed - a highly flexible projectile that comes out fast and helps protect him when he whiffs a grab (not much, but it can be a huge difference maker). His arrows aren't bad at all (situational, yes, but very, very good for what they do), and his bombs are perfect as combo extenders, limiting aerial movement options to set up uairs on landing opponents, and a fantastic OoS option if you have one.

For KOs, you grab dthrow up+B someone, uthrow dair on fastfallers, you can fair them (it's, if memory serves, zero on shield really low, but still pretty safe in general), you can also uair them at some point... and if they do anything unsafe on shield, up+b (or dair OoS, that's one I land quite a bit more than I probably should, because for some reason people love to full hop aerial me when I'm shielding on a platform...) finishes them off.

HIs offstage game isn't really that limited... most characters can't go low enough to punish a link using a low offstage nair. Those that can, you should probably be throwing things at [or I guess z-dropping bombs] instead. If you disagree, I'm interested in you naming a few characters who can easily punish his nair edgeguards or whatever you're discussing, because, frankly, the only person I can maybe think of is Samus, who would airdodge tether through late nair, then drop nair/bair (which loses to DJ nair her out of tether anyways, and which is possible if you SH or FH your nair from onstage), and characters that obviously punish that sort of thing [Puff, Kirby, D3, probably MK, M2, maybe one or two more I'm missing] whom, again, you shouldn't be running off to nair anyway].

I think he's not bottom 5 (And I'm sure Hylian does too). I think he's top half of the cast, though I can't say how high up I think he is [I don't have a number of "better than, worse than" or whatever.]

 

[Beorn]

I'm not in the mood to fight over this [especially given our substantial difference of opinion], but I will nitpick that Samus has a much worse grab than Link. Link's rang being great is pretty special in and of itself, because it does so much to help him zone or go in as needed - a highly flexible projectile that comes out fast and helps protect him when he whiffs a grab (not much, but it can be a huge difference maker). His arrows aren't bad at all (situational, yes, but very, very good for what they do), and his bombs are perfect as combo extenders, limiting aerial movement options to set up uairs on landing opponents, and a fantastic OoS option if you have one.

For KOs, you grab dthrow up+B someone, uthrow dair on fastfallers, you can fair them (it's, if memory serves, zero on shield really low, but still pretty safe in general), you can also uair them at some point... and if they do anything unsafe on shield, up+b (or dair OoS, that's one I land quite a bit more than I probably should, because for some reason people love to full hop aerial me when I'm shielding on a platform...) finishes them off.

HIs offstage game isn't really that limited... most characters can't go low enough to punish a link using a low offstage nair. Those that can, you should probably be throwing things at [or I guess z-dropping bombs] instead. If you disagree, I'm interested in you naming a few characters who can easily punish his nair edgeguards or whatever you're discussing, because, frankly, the only person I can maybe think of is Samus, who would airdodge tether through late nair, then drop nair/bair (which loses to DJ nair her out of tether anyways, and which is possible if you SH or FH your nair from onstage), and characters that obviously punish that sort of thing [Puff, Kirby, D3, probably MK, M2, maybe one or two more I'm missing] whom, again, you shouldn't be running off to nair anyway].

I think he's not bottom 5 (And I'm sure Hylian does too). I think he's top half of the cast, though I can't say how high up I think he is [I don't have a number of "better than, worse than" or whatever.]

It's cool man. We are just going to disagree.

I agree that links rang is good as I said in my previous post. Links arrows are a worse version of diddys popgun, which has better knockback for it's charge timings, better arks, and can quickly be followed with another amazing projectile, while also being on a character that can put people off stage with ease, and has incredible mobility options with them. Links arrows have tiny hitbubbles and little mobility options. They have a uses, but I wouldn't consider them good. Bombs are a necessity for link, but again are just strictly worse than other projectiles like them (snakes nades, peaches turnips, toonlinks bombs) Out of all of the projectile based characters in this game I would easily say link got the short end of the stick. I will agree rang is good though.

Fair is not 0 anymore. It was in 3.02 when it did 15% which is why it was reduced to 14.

"For KOs, you grab" this is a problem. But yes, for Kos you do grab, fair and up-b unsafe things oos. Again, besides fair all of his Ko options are pretty unsafe and easy to get around. Which is why people live so long against link. Without Fair Idk what link would do in most matchups. I played some early build of 3.5 where his fair was about melee knockback. He was garbage in this build. Uair them at some point isn't a kill move on anything but super floaties, but it is a last resort that is pretty solid after a grab. Then again, after a grab is bad.

I believe that because samus has a better dashdance, wavedash, jumpsquat, faster moves, on par crouch cancel, projectiles that land cancel, more active tether frames, and a tether that grabs out of the air... She has a better grab, because she is more likely to put you in worse situations more easily. As well as having more safe and fast moves/movement, and she doesn't fold to a nearly point blank short hop. Her grab does technically come out slower though.

His offstage game is really that limited. He can only use a couple of moves off stage realistically( Nair and bair. neither of which are kill moves) The tides can turn very quickly on an edge guarding link, because of his poor recovery distance and the hitboxes on his up-b. If wario can go low enough to up-b safely against a nair falling link, anyone with a vertical recovery can. Bringing a bomb with you offstage gives you a bit more room to work with though. This isn't to say his edge-guarding is terrible, because it's not. It isn't great, but it's not bad. It's amazing for like 7-10 characters because of how there recoverys work, but it is quite linear though.

Link has a lot of positive attributes, like his weight, his boomerang, range, fair, nair, jabs, and dthrow. I just think he has many more weaknesses than strengths.

 

[EmptySky00]

Grab opportunities aren't common enough to rely on them for kills. The main problem is that you don't have to respect any of his ****. He has the same weaknesses as before but now is defanged as well. His projectiles are ok but they aren't threatening and the rest of the character doesn't make it so. Before, he had rang conversions to threaten the opponent and his throw game was devastating if you could get it. Now that's much less the case. You can still kill off of those but you have to put far more work into it than a lot of characters. Again, You also don't have to respect him because he's not threatening. I played against another link that is decent, and it was hilarious how much I didn't have to care about anything he did. I could just death touch him once I got him because of his combo weight and it was fun. For me.

Dthrow up B is also a poor kill option to rely on IMO. Di away from the ledge and you live for a while.

 

[EmptySky00]

Fun **** you can do if you're good:

First vulnerable frame.

 

[Thor]

Fun **** you can do if you're good:

First vulnerable frame.

I'm not sure I'm seeing what I'm supposed to see, but are you saying Link can invincible ledgedash jab, or what?

 

[EmptySky00]

I sure am.
And Dsmash.
And boomerang (for the entirety of the sweetspot exactly btw)
and double hit Fair (You become vulnerable the frame the second hitbox is out. Btw double Fair from ledge is a 2 frame window to input.)

Just felt like putting that out there. It's probably already known.

On another note, I posted that from my phone so I didn't see how much space that took up. How does one spoiler tag?

 

[Thor]

I sure am.
And Dsmash.
And boomerang (for the entirety of the sweetspot exactly btw)
and double hit Fair (You become vulnerable the frame the second hitbox is out. Btw double Fair from ledge is a 2 frame window to input.)

Just felt like putting that out there. It's probably already known.

On another note, I posted that from my phone so I didn't see how much space that took up. How does one spoiler tag?

Like this:
[Spoiler ] [/Spoiler ]

Omit the spaces and you have a spoiler, as such:

Spoiler: How to put stuff in the spoiler name

[Spoiler="" ] You omit the spaces and put the words in quotes [/Spoiler ]

Ledgedash dsmash sounds sweet [if risky]. Does this mean Link can ledgedash grab with ~4 frames of vulnerability before the first grabbox comes out?? I don't know exact numbers on these moves but I heard dsmash is frame 7 and grab was frame 11 so I think my math is right??? [Not that you'd want to ledgedash grab as LInk, but I'm curious.]

 

[EmptySky00]

Sounds right to me. But you have to be frame perfect.

 

[Deleted member]

Everyone said that everyone had one of the best recoveries in the game. That was the joke.

heh

ok so i havent read this thread in a while, so a few things.

comparing link dsmash to 3.02 mario dsmash is not the way to go. i agree that the opponent shouldnt live it at 180 like i do all the time, but old mario dsmash obliterated your character at 60% and killed your family. not a good source of comparison.

even though i think link is slightly workable, i still think hes bottom 3. actually id say the only character clearly worse than link is olimar, and lets be honest olimar is unplayable. i still think link is a potato in a cast full of great characters and is relatively way worse than melee link (who was atrocious, but still technically "mid tier").

if this character has to grab to get a kill youre in a lot of trouble