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You have a very weird way of thinking haha. You don't throw rang to intercept hitboxes..people put out hitboxes to intercept rang, and then approach you during it's hitlag/slow return. For example you throw rang at a marth short hopping at you and he shffl fairs it. He then dashes toward you without having to worry about the return hitbox of rang. If you're trying to snipe projectiles with rang then I'm not sure you're playing Link very well heh.
Oh I want Marth to fair the rang so I can fair or nair him in endlag of fair. Or avoid it so I can use it coming back to do something with the rang as something to protect me a little. Either way I get to attack him for his choices.
I usually want people to interact with them so I can hit them in endlag/grab them out of shield. Or just run into it and start a combo.
Or I just suck. That's also a distinct possibility. But I figured sniping charge shot with bombs (or rang works???) was a good idea? From there I figure one might as well clank other things and use the downtime for other attacks...
Oh I want Marth to fair the rang so I can fair or nair him in endlag of fair. Or avoid it so I can use it coming back to do something with the rang as something to protect me a little. Either way I get to attack him for his choices.
I usually want people to interact with them so I can hit them in endlag/grab them out of shield. Or just run into it and start a combo.
Or I just suck. That's also a distinct possibility. But I figured sniping charge shot with bombs (or rang works???) was a good idea? From there I figure one might as well clank other things and use the downtime for other attacks...
..you can just stand still and charge shot can never hit you lol. You aren't going to be punishing marths shffl'd fair on your rang with your own fair..I'm not even sure that is possible even if you are frame perfect, rang moves away from link too quickly, he's still in endlag or very nearly out of it by the time someone would interact with rang...unless they were chasing it down while returning to you which is..stupid.
I'm not sure what you expect from me when you
a) answer your own questions in the same sentence that you ask them
b) attack me for prior topics with precisely zero bearing on the discussion at hand
c) play the victim when I call you out for it, and
d) read words that aren't there, and
e) point at me like I'm being unreasonable.
If you want to talk Link, I'm happy to talk Link. I'm even happy to use lots and lots of very explicit, very precise words to help avoid you avoid further pitfalls in the morass of the English language. That said, I'm done with the idiocy earlier in this, and other threads. Feel free to continuing harassing whomever you like right under the noses of the mods if you feel that's a productive use of your time -- just don't expect further serious responses.
If my own reading comprehension has suddenly, miraculously vanished as regards your posts specifically, I apologize - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and ask that you reciprocate.
I stated, or implied, 4 things here:
1. Samus is a good character
2. Samus is dependent on her projectiles
3. Some sort of link (heh) can be drawn between Samus's dependency on her projectiles, and Link's dependency on his
4. Rob beats Samus, largely, as a result of his interactions with her projectiles
If you're still following, which I sincerely hope you are, I'm not sure how you so wildly misinterpreted my original post.
Dredging up a completely irrelevant, many-months old post in order to attack my credibility for my understanding of balance for two completely different characters in a completely different game, is probably the single finest example of an ad-hominem attack I've ever seen outside of politics.
1. The fact you start with Samus makes you instantly lose credibility. Link destroys Samus in the camping game in Melee, and here, Link's tools are even better. Strike 1. Link's rang doesn't care about being clanked [it ate a hitbox and he can put it out again in a second - that's a perfectly well-used rang], and the hitbox is disabled if you clank it out as Link with his rang or bombs [or should be and was at last check]. If the Link is good at item control [and Link should be], he can also pick it up, which is another projectile ROB readied for him, who now can't use it. Strike 2.
Ignoring for the moment that the Samus vs Link matchup is almost as incredibly irrelevant right now as Sheik vs Fox,
Hilariously, you've just enumerated, point-for-point, some of the major reasons that Link loses the camping game against ROB.
1. ROB's laser can't be clanked, so Link's ordinary anti-projectile game (the nairplane, which is the main reason he clowns Samus so hard) is no good.
2. ROB uses Link's own projectiles against him quite admirably, via the side B.
And seriously, if the ROBs you're playing against are actually letting you get away with hanging on to the gyro as Link without some severe punishment, then there's very little point in this discussion.
2. You assume he'll outcamp Link - sorry, but no. Link spawns way more stuff faster than ROB, who has a gyro (Which Link can steal while still using the rang and bow), and a laser that charges up every what, 10 seconds? If they use the weak laser every 2 seconds or whatever, that's scratch damage relative to what Link does.
Total # of projectiles != resultant stage/match control. This really isn't complicated stuff. ROB can cover ground very quickly, both with his body, and with his projectiles - it's trivial for him to punish Link for pulling a projectile from almost any position in a fashion somewhat analogous to Falco in terms of spatial coverage.
and for ROB's gyro to stay grounded means he can't be using it, but Link can be putting bombs out and also dropping them to briefly control the stage - ROB gets only one gyro though. Strike 3. You cite a disjoint? Link has the master sword, a decent fair, and an insane nair - plus the rang will definitely help him get in, and dtilt is no slouch at poking either. Link's shield pressure comes from mixups with bombs bouncing on shield and keeping the rang in awkward positions for the opponent - he can do enough to ROB, and his jab outranges ROB's stuff. Strike 4.
If you actually lack the very basic level respect for either of us that it would require you to go into the lab for 30 seconds, or quickly check the ROB forums to see exactly what his kit does before presuming to lecture us on his matchups, do you expect me to take the rest of this remotely seriously?
You also don't zone in every MU as Link - against Captain Falcon, for instance, you can try, but it's much more efficient to play a very gutsy CQC game where you use the rang to stuff some approach angles and snuff him out with jabs and nair while using uairs and utilts to stop stomps and then go to town.
Using a projectile to cover some of a rushdown character's approach options while outranging him with your normals/pokes is literally, precisely the definition of zoning.
..you can just stand still and charge shot can never hit you lol. You aren't going to be punishing marths shffl'd fair on your rang with your own fair..I'm not even sure that is possible even if you are frame perfect, rang moves away from link too quickly, he's still in endlag or very nearly out of it by the time someone would interact with rang...unless they were chasing it down while returning to you which is..stupid.
I clank it with rang when I'm holding a bomb [or will start rather], or with the bomb, since Hylian shield doesn't work with bombs in hand. That's why I use a bomb - have it, gotta use it for something... if I'm landing and don't want to airdodge up, bombs already in hand stop it, so yeah...
Fair isn't going to work unless rang is on the way back (which happens when I'm running and they run at me too attack, notice the rang coming back, SH the rang, and hit it while it's on the way back - sounds dumb but I've seen it...), but nair can sorta, especially if they fullhopped and swing on the way down - though to be honest I usually punish it with a bomb I already pulled, fair or nair just happen once in a hilarious while. Or if they fair it I just look to grab them as they land (if they didn't do immediate SH fair, since they could double fair).
I'm not sure what you expect from me when you
a) answer your own questions in the same sentence that you ask them
b) attack me for prior topics with precisely zero bearing on the discussion at hand
c) play the victim when I call you out for it, and
d) read words that aren't there, and
e) point at me like I'm being unreasonable.
a) I don't "answer my own questions in the same sentence I ask them" [not direct quote but replaced with proper subjects given the speaker], I use punctuation. Less facetiously, I ask a question and lay out my case for my side of things, and ask for a defense.
b) You have a questionable history for other MU discussions - and you're pessimistic from what I've seen. Biases are very relevant - we wouldn't trust Karaoke Man to tell us about relative potentials of people in Brawl, or else we might be told that Yoshi is like top tier for his (this is a guess on what he'd say) insane projectile that can be planked with, crazy double jump with armor that can avoid footstools easily [contrary to naysayers], great nair, uair that KOs, a chain-release on MK, a dair with insane damage potential, crazy-fast dsmash... we'd know he's good at pros, but not cons (or so it seems), and I know you're good at understanding what's hard about stuff, but you seem to underrate the advantages historically, so throwing that information out the window is a dumb idea.
c) I never played the victim, you did by claiming I attacked you, but then you never refuted my counterclaim that I attacked the arguments not you - and I wouldn't care if I did attack you and you got mad, the point is to discuss things and I'm saying your arguments don't hold up. You getting offended because I said as much is kinda funny, but considering you are definitively the first one to play the victim here [since you can always skip that part and just argue, but chose not to], this is just annoying - not true, but annoying nonetheless, because it means I have to wade through waves of your crap just to hash out why you think ROB-Link is so bad.
d) I didn't do that.
e) You are. But we'll ignore that and move on.
If you want to talk Link, I'm happy to talk Link. I'm even happy to use lots and lots of very explicit, very precise words to help avoid you avoid further pitfalls in the morass of the English language. That said, I'm done with the idiocy earlier in this, and other threads. Feel free to continuing harassing whomever you like right under the noses of the mods if you feel that's a productive use of your time -- just don't expect further serious responses.
I don't think this constitutes harassment, but your subtle attempts to try to get me flaming people (and therefore infracted) possibly constitutes some sort of baiting violation. I'm not going to bite, but it's dumb either way. At the end of the day, it's not really relevant to discussing ROB-Link, but if you want to keep going I'm more than willing to keep stringing along these dumb things.
If my own reading comprehension has suddenly, miraculously vanished as regards your posts specifically, I apologize - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and ask that you reciprocate.
I stated no such thing. I didn't even come close to beginning to suggest any such thing. From my post:
I stated, or implied, 4 things here:
1. Samus is a good character
2. Samus is dependent on her projectiles
3. Some sort of link (heh) can be drawn between Samus's dependency on her projectiles, and Link's dependency on his
4. Rob beats Samus, largely, as a result of his interactions with her projectiles
If you're still following, which I sincerely hope you are, I'm not sure how you so wildly misinterpreted my original post.
You have stated that because Samus and Link both use projectiles, we can assume that because Samus loses, so does Link that is somehow relevant to the MU [or something - I took it from it that those 4 points led to the conclusion that ROB beats Link in the camping department]. I thought you meant the struckthrough thing, which I think constitutes grouping, but I guess you didn't mean the struckthrough thing. Perhaps my language was inaccurate. My original point was, "You have tried to draw a connection that says "Samus loses to ROB, therefore Link probably does too [or something like that]." I'm stating that their projectile games are different enough that this comparison is invalid.
If this isn't the conclusion you're drawing, then I'm genuinely confused as to why you use Samus in the first place. Ok reread realized because you have Samus experience, but I still don't think playing Samus is sufficient to state that ROB is ahead in the projectile game because Link's also ahead of Samus in the projectile game.
Dredging up a completely irrelevant, many-months old post in order to attack my credibility for my understanding of balance for two completely different characters in a completely different game, is probably the single finest example of an ad-hominem attack I've ever seen outside of politics.
Pretty sure I separated that from the main post, because you were asking about a thread and I gave a specific example [I was backing up my apparent distrust earlier]. If you direct quoted I'd be sure of this, but whatever. In any case, I think understanding the tendencies and biases of someone providing evidence is important. And I wasn't saying you're stupid, I was stating that I think what I've read previously is questionable - then I backed it up when you vaguely referenced the thread I was thinking off.
Also, stating PM and Melee are completely different is false. I could draw parallels if you'd like, but I'm not going to bother right now because they should be obvious. They are different, but the fundamental concept is the same (kick them offstage and don't die yourself), and the way we approach MU spreads is very much the same [analyze tools, look at how matches look, yada yada]. You can point out all the differences you like - they are inevitably nitty-gritty (DACUS, glidetoss, grabbing ledges backwards sometimes), while I can point to fundamental, meta-level similarities (hitstun, the concept of ledge sweetspotting, objective of game) to prove this point. But I think everyone knows this and it would be a waste of time, so let's skip that part.
Ignoring for the moment that the Samus vs Link matchup is almost as incredibly irrelevant right now as Sheik vs Fox,
It's relevant, because the MU is basically decided by the projectile game being favored to Link. That suggests Link has better tools (and nair isn't the best reason - he simply outputs more stuff that's harder to deal with). That ascription makes me state that because Link can put out more stuff, he's harder to deal with - that's why I bring it up, because it's a head-to-head comparison of their camping abilities, and thus is relevant when stating that projectile games of Samus and Link merit comparison when discussing Link-ROB [or what you stated and I misconstrued as that].
Hilariously, you've just enumerated, point-for-point, some of the major reasons that Link loses the camping game against ROB.
1. ROB's laser can't be clanked, so Link's ordinary anti-projectile game (the nairplane, which is the main reason he clowns Samus so hard) is no good.
2. ROB uses Link's own projectiles against him quite admirably, via the side B.
And seriously, if the ROBs you're playing against are actually letting you get away with hanging on to the gyro as Link without some severe punishment, then there's very little point in this discussion.
1) Block the laser - ROB doesn't get follow ups from it - at most it stops Link, but Link doesn't need to short hop to put out one of his best projectiles - this means ROB can't interfere with Link's camping as effectively. You screw up a Samus SH she's gonna struggle to double missile or keep missile camping [will have to start back up] - you hit Link, he pulls another bomb or throws his rang, no sweat off him.
2) This is only on the ground and doesn't work that well against anything but the arrows and possibly the gyro. Yeah, it bops the rang - Link should be using the side+B to jump his rang and get in a nair or fair. I try to do this all the time versus Zelda's naryu's love (Which land cancels, making it a pain), so the concept would be the same. Link may have strong zoning, but he's also got a decent sword and great nair - Link having stuff reflected gives him more to dodge, but if ROB's using side+b, he's not doing anything else for a few frames which gives Link time to do something.
And they don't let me "hang onto the gyro" but you're acting like this is something ROB can whip out as quickly as bombs. He can't. And if you grab it, throw a rang, throw it upwards, get a bomb, start defending the thing so he can't get it back. IF ROB is trying hard to get it back, he's playing sub-optimally (and you can take advantage) since it shouldn't be the centerpiece of his play. If he's not, you've removed it from the equation temporarily, which swings the camping game decisively in Link's favor [for the record, I don't mean defend it literally unless the ROB is so focused on it that he's always gunning for it - at which point you can just bait him hard with it and get easy punishes off someone gunning for it so hard].
Total # of projectiles != resultant stage/match control. This really isn't complicated stuff. ROB can cover ground very quickly, both with his body, and with his projectiles - it's trivial for him to punish Link for pulling a projectile from almost any position in a fashion somewhat analogous to Falco in terms of spatial coverage.
Link getting hit by a laser? Yeah, it's a punish... but Link still gets his thingy (bomb, rang) after it, and ROB now has to wait for the laser to be online again. Link can also shield it or at least make ROB do some aiming since he should be keeping fairly mobile.
If Link's close up he shouldn't be pulling a projectile (maybe a rang, nothing else), but if he is, he's gutsy or stupid (probably both).
In many matchups, possibly. Against ROB specifically, the rang is very dangerous.
I have no idea what you mean by this, since you seem to think Link's projectiles are trivial.
I was going to keep answering this stuff, but, uh,
If you actually lack the very basic level respect for either of us that it would require you to go into the lab for 30 seconds, or quickly check the ROB forums to see exactly what his kit does before presuming to lecture us on his matchups, do you expect me to take the rest of this remotely seriously?
I don't have PM on me and you're making it out like ROB's aerial side+B has some magic powers on it. If you want to tell me what they are, go ahead - I've said above that I looked around for what properties it has (And also did this before), but all I found was that grounded one reflects, and aerial one boosts the power of his aerials. Like I said, I've also played where I bomb'd someone out of it, so I thought (and the ROB did too) that side+b in the air had no special interaction with projectiles. I had tested some stuff and saw nothing whatsoever unique about aerial side+b interacting with projectiles. Thus I thought I did have the relevant knowledge (it boosts his aerials). But I may have missed something, so now I'll just ask as politely and pedantically as possible: Does ROB's aerial side+b have any projectile immunity, reflection, or auto-catching properties I could not seem to find when I went looking for them? I found none, and I really did look hard. If they are present, what are they?
My basic level of respect involves reading changelogs and doing a quick search (about 10 minutes). If that didn't yield this result that I couldn't find in-game either, well, I guess I'm just really bad at finding stuff on a character I don't use, cuz normally that yields more than enough information.
Using a projectile to cover some of a rushdown character's approach options while outranging him with your normals/pokes is literally, precisely the definition of zoning.
That's talking about just poking and keeping out, and from long range - I mean Link should go in, and hard, whenever he can, but Link has to hit-confirm first - so I guess what I really meant is you zone up close [which isn't zoning by definition but we'll ignore that since I think the other parts apply] till you land one blow, then you become the best imitation of a combo-heavy character you can. I play the poking and jumping game vs Samus - I'm not very interested in any long combos against her, the closest thing being uair strings, which are really me just zoning vertically (As you pointed out) - Link has to BE a rushdown fighter whenever he lands a good hit against Falcon, because playing neutral game forever [zoning] against Falcon is just too unrewarding against him when he can close the gap quickly and combo you to death a lot of the time (but not against Samus).
So the point I was trying to make is that Link can't really zone a Falcon, at least not at long range if he wants real success without being a reads god. But you can do reasonably well against Samus and Jiggs purely through zoning (kicking them out of your zone and setting up kills over time).
I would just like to add that link loses to rob due to many things, the worst being that rob trounces link offstage, and rob has no problem putting link there. Like many of links match ups.
I would just like to add that link loses to rob due to many things, the worst being that rob trounces link offstage, and rob has no problem putting link there. Like many of links match ups.
I didn't say Link wins or that it's even (I think it's a somewhat difficult MU). _Odds said it was unwinnable though, and that I heavily dispute. Hence the really long post.
idk whats happening with the rob discussion here, but i still think links punish game is pretty good. its just not rang -> death everytime. getting that hit is harder i guess, but when he converts, he still hits like a truck.
idk whats happening with the rob discussion here, but i still think links punish game is pretty good. its just not rang -> death everytime. getting that hit is harder i guess, but when he converts, he still hits like a truck.
I think shifting away from ROB stuff for a time wouldn't be a bad idea. I'm clearly never going to convince _Odds the Link-ROB MU is anything better than 100-0 ROB [or unwinnable as was stated on the previous page] and _Odds is never going to convince me it's nearly that bad.
Does anyone else think Link kinda destroys ICs since they lost their infinites? It feels kinda unfair to fight them now since being caught isn't nearly as punishing [yeah 60% or whatever hurts but it's not a stock every time] while Link still gimps them pretty effectively and still has some good stuff for separating them.
ROB has always beaten Link (including balwr) while I personally thought Link does rather well vs IC's (also including bawrl). ROB's horizontal spacing is much better than Link's and has had an easier time punishing. Also throw things at IC's 4 lief........Unless Hylian has better insight on the matchup. Haven't faced any elite IC's mains.
Sorry, I tend to do that. I could link you to a post I made in the debate halls that took me over 3 hours to type [then I spent time editing it], but I think you'd get bored reading it.
ROB has always beaten Link (including balwr) while I personally thought Link does rather well vs IC's (also including bawrl). ROB's horizontal spacing is much better than Link's and has had an easier time punishing. Also throw things at IC's 4 lief........Unless Hylian has better insight on the matchup. Haven't faced any elite IC's mains.
Also I'm pretty sure if you fsmash their shield and they don't powershield all they can do is cry since they have horrible shield traction and you can swing again if they try to wavedash OoS and punish [since I think they've gotta do it twice to get in range usually]. But yeah, probably ask Hylian.
I play pretty badly at the start of the match but pick it up in the later half. This was 3.02. In 3.5, IC's do much better against Link because they can actually chain grab reliably now. I think Link wins the match-up but only slightly, he can't really run away from IC's because he's too slow. Also, you can see me punish his Fsmash on shield with one wavedash in the video.
Link's dthrow is arguably scarier now than it was before for characters like Ness...his punishes are god like, his dair and fair were practically untouched so he has sick kills within them. No link player in 3.02 really put together his nair/bair kit with his projectile kit with his insane hitboxes that last a while and are pretty strong kit with his throw kid with his offstage edge guarding and insane recovery kit---probably because no Link player had to put in that much work to do extremely well.
Every Link player was good at a small set of things while no one mastered combining all aspects of the character together. What that tells me is that Link's ceiling is much higher than has been exhibited. Personally, I think the current link is just as potent as the previous one with the exception that he has to commit harder in neutral to his options, and his recovery flat out gets edgeguarded by people who are awake. Basically, his major strengths haven't changed but players who are bad at smash aren't able to get by on Link being absurd in many categories. All I can say to the younger link players occupying this forum is--note that the people dismissing Link the loudest don't even really publicly play the character (and especially don't at a high level). Watch Nick Riddle footage, and pray that Wolf comes back to show everyone whats up. Practice, train, and improve because in the last patch, many of you guys were getting results off of really fraudulent stuff that does not exemplify the relationship of risk/reward that comes with normal "smash".
Good luck, and stay optimistic. I'm personally really impressed with the restraint the PMDT showed in face of Link--they hardly touched his kill moves that are oh so powerful, and his throw game is still intact, and is in some matchups, MUCH stronger. Also, Sol's punish game is sick (although he has glaring holes in other aspects of his play), so if you are struggling to find out how to combo well, he might be your guy to watch.
Link's dthrow is arguably scarier now than it was before for characters like Ness...his punishes are god like, his dair and fair were practically untouched so he has sick kills within them. No link player in 3.02 really put together his nair/bair kit with his projectile kit with his insane hitboxes that last a while and are pretty strong kit with his throw kid with his offstage edge guarding and insane recovery kit---probably because no Link player had to put in that much work to do extremely well.
Every Link player was good at a small set of things while no one mastered combining all aspects of the character together. What that tells me is that Link's ceiling is much higher than has been exhibited. Personally, I think the current link is just as potent as the previous one with the exception that he has to commit harder in neutral to his options, and his recovery flat out gets edgeguarded by people who are awake. Basically, his major strengths haven't changed but players who are bad at smash aren't able to get by on Link being absurd in many categories. All I can say to the younger link players occupying this forum is--note that the people dismissing Link the loudest don't even really publicly play the character (and especially don't at a high level). Watch Nick Riddle footage, and pray that Wolf comes back to show everyone whats up. Practice, train, and improve because in the last patch, many of you guys were getting results off of really fraudulent stuff that does not exemplify the relationship of risk/reward that comes with normal "smash".
Good luck, and stay optimistic. I'm personally really impressed with the restraint the PMDT showed in face of Link--they hardly touched his kill moves that are oh so powerful, and his throw game is still intact, and is in some matchups, MUCH stronger. Also, Sol's punish game is sick (although he has glaring holes in other aspects of his play), so if you are struggling to find out how to combo well, he might be your guy to watch.
Well I just figured out that the new 10 frame delay in Zair ledge detection lets you ledge hop Zair and get the launching hitbox out right as you land lol. It's not the best option but if the spacing's correct it's hilarious. I wish the move was less inconsistent with its hitboxes linking into each other. Especially now that it has more end lag. People fall out of it for no reason far too often no matter how well I space it. But ya, just dropped by to throw out that useless piece of information.
Edit: Yup, Ness had better watch out. Sacrifice a usable grab game against the vast majority of the cast to gain it against Ness. Wow. I'm going back to not reading this thread lol.
i really tried to get it, and honestly i just don't get it. link to me is like... okay vs other slow characters like ness and peach and absolutely horrid vs anyone faster than him. i have absolutely no idea how this character is supposed to win vs the cast at large in an open bracket.
I thought I would give an opinion on what I think links current match up spread might look something like. Because there has been so much discussion of links viability recently and it seems like it would be a good idea to bring up every match up and see where discussion goes.
This is my opinion based on my own experiences and matches I have seen. Though some of this is theory crafting based on links current tool set, because there just isn't enough data and no one plays some of these characters well in 3.5. I will elaborate if you guys ask.
I would like opinions from some of the more vocal posters on this thread. If possible I would like to see your own placements.
Characters link gets reckt by >_>
Characters link does poorly against (crouch cancelable shine and an easier combo weight for link, compared to other spacies, but still bad) (if link wasn't the perfect size and weight for 0 deaths this wouldn't be so bad, link wins neutral) ( oh, you want to attack link? 3 FRAME MOVE) (auto combos all day into auto killmoves, a projectile that beats most of what link does, and gimps) (she can stay out of range and just out maneuver link all day, with reliable combos and kill setups) (I may be over estimating him, but I feel like he has the tools to do better than we have been seeing) ( Double jump armor > link) (better faster link) ( I would have said this was in links favor in 3.02) ( this would be even if snake couldn't kill so reliably, and link ... could) ( if not for bair I would be inclined to say this was an even match)
Characters ink goes evenish with (if dedede wasn't so fat he would body link with his edge guarding and grab game) (range, link wins because of this one thing) (Run and throw stuff and you win, do anything else and you get bodied, very volatile) ( This is a very even match up) ( This would be really bad for link, if peach had any air or ground speed) (very fun even match up, GGs pmbr lucas is super cool) ( he dies soooo easily to links kill setups and moves, other than that hes super janksville usa) (this may be in samuses favor, I'm not sure) ( if link keeps her out this is pretty even) ( link destoys link. Such a dumb match) (hylian did a great job summarizing this already ( theory crafting, based on melee)
Characters Link does well against
( most of these are because projectiles and swords invalidate these characters) (poor olimar T_T) (range) ( this matchup sucks. Don't get hit, ever, and you win) (range) ( with the removal of his auto grab game and inv on nair arms this went down the tubes for dk) (same as ganon) (Ness ****s link hard when he gets in, more than most, but he can't get in)
I thought I would give an opinion on what I think links current match up spread might look something like. Because there has been so much discussion of links viability recently and it seems like it would be a good idea to bring up every match up and see where discussion goes.
This is my opinion based on my own experiences and matches I have seen. Though some of this is theory crafting based on links current tool set, because there just isn't enough data and no one plays some of these characters well in 3.5. I will elaborate if you guys ask.
I would like opinions from some of the more vocal posters on this thread. If possible I would like to see your own placements.
Characters link gets reckt by >_>
Characters link does poorly against (crouch cancelable shine and an easier combo weight for link, compared to other spacies, but still bad) (if link wasn't the perfect size and weight for 0 deaths this wouldn't be so bad, link wins neutral) ( oh, you want to attack link? 3 FRAME MOVE) (auto combos all day into auto killmoves, a projectile that beats most of what link does, and gimps) (she can stay out of range and just out maneuver link all day, with reliable combos and kill setups) (I may be over estimating him, but I feel like he has the tools to do better than we have been seeing) ( Double jump armor > link) (better faster link) ( I would have said this was in links favor in 3.02) ( this would be even if snake couldn't kill so reliably, and link ... could) ( if not for bair I would be inclined to say this was an even match)
Characters ink goes evenish with (if dedede wasn't so fat he would body link with his edge guarding and grab game) (range, link wins because of this one thing) (Run and throw stuff and you win, do anything else and you get bodied, very volatile) ( This is a very even match up) ( This would be really bad for link, if peach had any air or ground speed) (very fun even match up, GGs pmbr lucas is super cool) ( he dies soooo easily to links kill setups and moves, other than that hes super janksville usa) (this may be in samuses favor, I'm not sure) ( if link keeps her out this is pretty even) ( link destoys link. Such a dumb match) (hylian did a great job summarizing this already ( theory crafting, based on melee)
Characters Link does well against
( most of these are because projectiles and swords invalidate these characters) (poor olimar T_T) (range) ( this matchup sucks. Don't get hit, ever, and you win) (range) ( with the removal of his auto grab game and inv on nair arms this went down the tubes for dk) (same as ganon) (Ness ****s link hard when he gets in, more than most, but he can't get in)
I agree with the top 5 mentioned (add wolf there too imo) , past that I actually believe he goes rather even with most of the cast, though he doesn't have any tools per say that makes him stand out compared to other characters. Don't get me wrong, he has all the tools he needs and he's awesome, just a good handful of other characters are better if you actually get down and compare.
As for toon link... He's pretty much link that dies faster but has better speed and more reliable combo to kill confirm options, combo game is roughly similar to link in general though
Side note: I'm actually under the belief that olimar does fairly well vs link, I have a few other discrepancies with the list, but this is a fun one I like to bring up :-)
I heavily disagree with like 99% of that match-up list lol.
In other news, I played a lot of link the other day. Feel free to watch some(haven't played in a month so kind of rusty but still fine against opponent of similar skill to myself).
Edit: There are also perfect examples of why I like his weak-hit nair more now. It combos into another move offstage for 100% your opponent is dead edgeguards which he couldn't do before. You can also combo on stage with weak hit nair -> fair to kill which I do to DK a few times throughout the games as well.
The top 5 look about right. Marth and Samus seem harder in this patch tho and the Ganon MU feels just like Melee. Ganon has so many good combos on Link and is good at swatting the rang away. Really only the bombs are reliable in the neutral vs Ganon. The matchup should not favor Link by any means, especially not in 3.5.
Lucario also feels about even because like you said...we win the neutral. Link does not beat Kirby.
I heavily disagree with like 99% of that match-up list lol.
In other news, I played a lot of link the other day. Feel free to watch some(haven't played in a month so kind of rusty but still fine against opponent of similar skill to myself).
Edit: There are also perfect examples of why I like his weak-hit nair more now. It combos into another move offstage for 100% your opponent is dead edgeguards which he couldn't do before. You can also combo on stage with weak hit nair -> fair to kill which I do to DK a few times throughout the games as well.
I would honestly like to hear your opinion on links matchups. I'm sure others would as well. Especially if you disagree with 99 percent of what I posted.
Link's dthrow is arguably scarier now than it was before for characters like Ness...his punishes are god like, his dair and fair were practically untouched so he has sick kills within them. No link player in 3.02 really put together his nair/bair kit with his projectile kit with his insane hitboxes that last a while and are pretty strong kit with his throw kid with his offstage edge guarding and insane recovery kit---probably because no Link player had to put in that much work to do extremely well.
Every Link player was good at a small set of things while no one mastered combining all aspects of the character together. What that tells me is that Link's ceiling is much higher than has been exhibited. Personally, I think the current link is just as potent as the previous one with the exception that he has to commit harder in neutral to his options, and his recovery flat out gets edgeguarded by people who are awake. Basically, his major strengths haven't changed but players who are bad at smash aren't able to get by on Link being absurd in many categories. All I can say to the younger link players occupying this forum is--note that the people dismissing Link the loudest don't even really publicly play the character (and especially don't at a high level). Watch Nick Riddle footage, and pray that Wolf comes back to show everyone whats up. Practice, train, and improve because in the last patch, many of you guys were getting results off of really fraudulent stuff that does not exemplify the relationship of risk/reward that comes with normal "smash".
Good luck, and stay optimistic. I'm personally really impressed with the restraint the PMDT showed in face of Link--they hardly touched his kill moves that are oh so powerful, and his throw game is still intact, and is in some matchups, MUCH stronger. Also, Sol's punish game is sick (although he has glaring holes in other aspects of his play), so if you are struggling to find out how to combo well, he might be your guy to watch.
I personally think Link is high up in a list of best to worst (not sure what number, but I think I'd safely put him no lower than 15), and when I came back to MN, several people were telling me they thought he's top 10 in PM.
But I'm rather bad so my opinion doesn't usually count. I can link a vid if people want to see me playing somewhat below my current skill level [because improvement], but I doubt anyone cares.
Interested in Hylian's opinion because I do think Beorn underrates a lot of Link's MUs. I personally think Link vs Kirby is actually fairly close to even [Link still probably wins slightly, but it's very close and if two equal skill players played the MU I would be unsurprised to see Kirby win], but that's also partially because I think people tend to underrate Kirby.
So from messing around with frame advance, link has 4 frames before he can act from a ledge grab and 33 frames of invincibility. Other characters I've tested have 8 frames before they can act and 37 frames of invincibility. Confirm?
Link superior stats confirmed?!
Is there anyone else with 4 frames or am I just stupid?
So from messing around with frame advance, link has 4 frames before he can act from a ledge grab and 33 frames of invincibility. Other characters I've tested have 8 frames before they can act and 37 frames of invincibility. Confirm?
Link superior stats confirmed?!
Is there anyone else with 4 frames or am I just stupid?
His ledge dash shouldn't actually be any better. Same amount of invincibility. Slightly worse for ledge hogging but who cares. I just like it because it makes the timing easier.
Funny you said pikachu xD the one character I was going to test but couldn't.
Edit: I tested pikachu by cheating my ****ed up disc. His was also 8.
His ledge dash shouldn't actually be any better. Same amount of invincibility. Slightly worse for ledge hogging but who cares. I just like it because it makes the timing easier.
Funny you said pikachu xD the one character I was going to test but couldn't.
Edit: I tested pikachu by cheating my ****ed up disc. His was also 8.
Did you use QA into the ledge? If I'm not mistaken, Pikachu has stats that differ from the rest if he uses QA, but not just gets on.
Also for Beorn's MU list, as of 3.02 Professor Pro stated he thought it was possible Snake lost to Link [he made a post of MUs Snake might lose or something and it was like 20 characters long, and Link was one of them]. I think 3.5 provided Snake some buffs but I don't think the MU is any worse than even. Forgot to mention this one when posting earlier so I'm just dropping this here.
P.S: I just dropped some recent footage in the video thread, so if people want to see what I meant by "bad" they can check it out. I fight spacies, Falcon, and a Peach/Mewtwo player.
Anyone else finding Link not as fun anymore? As an ex Brawl Link main, I really miss his Brawl jank such as tether regrabs, tether cancelling, bomb slide, and DACUS. I even miss bomb jumping, which was a Melee thing. All of those things were what made Link fun to play, at least for me, and it seems like they've taken it all away. All that's left on PM Link now is AGT and bomb punting, which to me is kind of depressing. Not only that, but they even made him mediocre as a character in the roster. I mean, I'll still be maining Link of course, because he's my best and favorite character ever, but I'm just getting tired of him now. To be honest if something doesn't change before I get Sm4sh U, I probably won't play PM anymore.
Anyone else finding Link not as fun anymore? As an ex Brawl Link main, I really miss his Brawl jank such as tether regrabs, tether cancelling, bomb slide, and DACUS. I even miss bomb jumping, which was a Melee thing. All of those things were what made Link fun to play, at least for me, and it seems like they've taken it all away. All that's left on PM Link now is AGT and bomb punting, which to me is kind of depressing. Not only that, but they even made him mediocre as a character in the roster. I mean, I'll still be maining Link of course, because he's my best and favorite character ever, but I'm just getting tired of him now. To be honest if something doesn't change before I get Sm4sh U, I probably won't play PM anymore.
I'm not arguing for this link but bomb jumping and dacus still exist. He has plenty of tech still. Just bomb jump like in melee. We've already had this argument but smash 4trocity link is a disgusting downgrade to me. So have fun with that one.
I think what irks me is that people thought they were being cute and clever by dropping the "if you're so dissatisfied play someone else" line. While I may have been PMSing too hard, I actually only play this game for link. I consequently have come to like the rest of it, but Link IS my character and always has been. And that's why I was upset because I felt the changes were done unjustly and were too drastic. It's hard to try and understand someone's position when they're hard emoing and I get that. But there were reasons why I was upset. My honest opinion is that the character is workable but blatantly not good. I wish he could get a few things back because I ****ing loved 3.02 link.
Now if I put a few thing out there hylian and shadic will tell me I'm ******** again but I'm in there.
Zair - I wish it had less drastic landing lag, the hitbox matched the size of the claw better, or the second hit was less prone to randomly fail. If it was consistent I could get over the lag.
Bair - this move is not good and I'm prepared to debate this to my death bed this time. It's neat and you can do cool looking **** with it, but it's blatantly not good. It loses to too many things. It doesn't connect correctly idc WHAT you say, it loses to crouch, sdi, and any DI period, the range isn't good and it doesn't yield enough on successful hit to make it threatening in any meaningful way. You can get stuff, but you could just be doing better moves instead and see more success. I know you don't respect my opinion or my view on this @Hylian
but I really desperately just want the move to work better and it just doesn't. I just want consistency. It doesn't have to give me kills on hit I just want moves I use to work like I expect them to.
Rang - I wish the hitbox didn't halve after the sweet spot or basically that it didn't go over people's heads from a grounded throw like TL. I wish it retained the 14 damage but the first one bothers me more.
This isn't even blatant buff makethisguystrong **** it would just make me feel like the characters tools were consistent. And then whatever is whatever.
Oh I REALLY want his old bomb throw range back. That would make him feel so much better. Idgaf about bomb jump or his recovery I just want to be able to throw further than 4 feet. I would remove bomb jump if it gave his throw range back.
Edit: ok real talkathon (phone auto correct I'm keeping it) this is actually annoying me. I thought you guys polished the hitboxes 2 versions or several decades ago why does his uair have no hitbox on like 15% of the sword? <_<
I'm not arguing for this link but bomb jumping and dacus still exist. He has plenty of tech still. Just bomb jump like in melee. We've already had this argument but smash 4trocity link is a disgusting downgrade to me. So have fun with that one.
Dacus is hard as hell to do now and is no where near as good as in Brawl. As for bomb jumping, that doesn't solve anything. It's still nigh impossible to do successfully. Especially in real matches. And I most certainly will. Sm4sh Link is the better character no matter how you look at it anyways. The tech skill that they took away is what prevents me from enjoying PM Link as much because they were the most fun to use.
Dacus is hard as hell to do now and is no where near as good as in Brawl. As for bomb jumping, that doesn't solve anything. It's still nigh impossible to do successfully. Especially in real matches. And I most certainly will. Sm4sh Link is the better character no matter how you look at it anyways. The tech skill that they took away is what prevents me from enjoying PM Link as much because they were the most fun to use.
It was never as long as brawl. Fun fact: if I'm not mistaken the dacus would have been harder anyway because of the buffed jump speed. If you know the window it becomes a lot easier. I'll help: dash - C stick down - within the next 2 frames or the first 2 of dash attack, up Z. Just do the entire input at once.
And bomb jumping like melee is stupid easy. I just never have enough time but I can do it with like 90% success rate. Why was bomb jumping what made you enjoy him that's weird. I just hated him because his moves feel like they hit like paper when they used to be like 20% better. Like rang. Bomb distance. Especially nair. (Add that **** to my list btw. I hate that. So uncalled for.)
One thing I will say is that his bair wave land feels like ****ing BUTTER now. I just want to lick that **** off the screen it's so sexy.
I still think smash 4trocity lunk is disgusting. I main this guy out of principle and even I won't touch that.. Thing. More fun fact: I started competitively on BRAWL link lol.
It was never as long as brawl. Fun fact: if I'm not mistaken the dacus would have been harder anyway because of the buffed jump speed. If you know the window it becomes a lot easier. I'll help: dash - C stick down - within the next 2 frames or the first 2 of dash attack, up Z. Just do the entire input at once.
And bomb jumping like melee is stupid easy. I just never have enough time but I can do it with like 90% success rate. Why was bomb jumping what made you enjoy him that's weird. I just hated him because his moves feel like they hit like paper when they used to be like 20% better. Like rang. Bomb distance. Especially nair. (Add that **** to my list btw. I hate that. So uncalled for.)
One thing I will say is that his bair wave land feels like ****ing BUTTER now. I just want to lick that **** off the screen it's so sexy.
I still think smash 4trocity lunk is disgusting. I main this guy out of principle and even I won't touch that.. Thing. More fun fact: I started competitively on BRAWL link lol.
Tech skill that I consider gone now are Dacus, bombsliding, tether regrab and tether canceling. All of which I ****ing loved to do. Like, all the time. I consider Dacus to be gone now because there's literally no point in trying to perform it. The sliding distance is just way too short to have any sort of true benefit. So yeah, the removal of those techs are really dissapointing to me and it takes away a lot of what I enjoyed about Link. And the overnerfs really piss me off as well. I believe I've posted here before on that. It was on the last thread. So not only do they take away my favorite techs, but they also made Link mediocre.
All I really like about this Link's changes are his hype azz combos once you land them, his bair waveland (which you mentioned and hell yeah you're right), and the shorter jumpsquat.
I just like moving really fast and making people go like wtf I thought link was slow. And I'm just like, he is *****. Then I kill them. And I like throwing **** out like it's garbage night. Throwing stuff is fun.
Dacus is actually one of his best conversion tools now early % IMO. It also checks them trying to rush you after they shield boomerang. I do miss the one wtf-how-did-I-get-all-the-way-over-there-?-!-? Dacus but I love the jump squat reduction infinitely more. I wanted that change for so long and when I got it it felt like Christmas. Dacus still has good distance though. Just practice it.
Tether tricks were fun but I didn't mind giving those up as much. I thing the detection delay that prevents him from refreshing ledge invincibility was unnecessary as **** with only 1 re grab but whatever so it goes lol. I never thought bomb sliding worked very well tbh. It was neat in brawl but that's it. SHAGing or whatever is infinitely better.
The things that annoy you annoyed me greatly too I'm not gonna lie. But I'm just calm about it now after taking a break from the game. They don't bother me nearly as much now.
I just want to ask, but what was the reason for the slower frames on Link's tilts and worse kill ability for ftilt? I can't kill with this thing until very high percents near the edge.
Ftilt's startup went from 12 frames to 14 frames, knockback growth decreased from 93 to 90, and its base knockback was decreased from 20 on all hitboxes to either 5 or 2 depending on spacing.
Ftilt's startup went from 12 frames to 14 frames, knockback growth decreased from 93 to 90, and its base knockback was decreased from 20 on all hitboxes to either 5 or 2 depending on spacing.
(if dedede wasn't so fat he would body link with his edge guarding and grab game)
