2020 US Presidential Election Discussion

[StoicPhantom]

It's kind of amazing how a self-described communist uses neoliberal rationalization to support the establishment. I've been wondering why this Vaush guy has been popping up in neolib circles on the net and now I see why. For all his aggression he's very surface level and there's quite a lot of holes in his logic here.

1. He calls this a democracy and says public support matters more than anything else, but there is a now famous chart that shows all public policy is geared towards the top 20%. I don't have it handy unfortunately, but there is plenty of study on this topic since then if you care to look. If your political system locks out the bottom 80% then you can't really pretend voting matters or that you have democracy in any real sense of the word.

2. He keeps saying that America has never had a more positive opinion on socialism and that socialists are closer than ever to having their policies fulfilled, but then somehow forgets that Dems repudiated Bernie Sanders not once, but twice in four years. Socialism was at its peak in the 40s when FDR was backed by the coalition between the Socialist and Communist parties and the labor unions which allowed things like the New Deal to happen. The Progressive movement pales in comparison and holds no real power.

3. He says that for the first time in history the Democrats will have to capitulate to the left for votes. Lmfao. Based on what? The fact that "communists" are currently shaming people into unconditional support for the Democratic Party? He does realize that the only thing the bottom 80% have is their votes, right? And that giving them up unconditionally means they have no leverage left, right? Apparently not because he just glosses over that when he brings up the point that Biden has no need for you after you give him your vote. I'm sure Biden will crumble under "****talking" by communist LARPers on the internet.


There's far more I could point out in that video of bad takes, but these are the main points that completely dismantle his entire argument. It's just pure delusion at this point to think you have any power. If a major pandemic causing the unemployment level to spike beyond Great Depression levels wasn't enough to force the Dems to even pay lip service to the idea of public healthcare, mean words on the internet isn't going to do it. And if months of constant protests and riots over police corruption weren't enough to prevent a Dem ticket from consisting of Joseph "1994 crime bill" Biden and Kamala "Is a cop" Harris, then public opinion doesn't mean dog ****.

Establishment Dems do not give the slightest **** about you. Biden will most likely win without your help. Not due to anything on his part, but because Trump has completely abandoned any illusion of support for the working class. People don't need to "wake up" to the fact that neoliberalism is an utter failure. Trump's election was their repudiation of that ideology. And in response the Dems doubled down on neoliberalism with Biden. And when Biden's first term is up, Trump 2.0 will become the next boogeyman and we will have to unconditionally support the Dems again to stop "fascism" from taking hold of a country that clearly loves it.

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There's Malcom X talking about exactly this sixty years ago after the first term of Johnson who won over the Trump of that time: Barry Goldwater. And the current era is exactly like it was then, down to Democrats completely controlling the government (Obama's first term) and proceeding to do absolutely nothing.


Now to be clear: I give no ****s about who you vote for or why. But I'm tired of these bull**** arguments that are steeped in self-righteousness. If any of what has been said on this topic was actually true, then America would be at least a functioning social democracy like the rest of the world and not a failed state.

 

[Ben Holt]

I understand your point. Trump has done awful things, and I agree. However, direct action is always stronger than just hoping your local progressive does something.

Look what happened in Minneapolis. They are set out to disband the police. This wasn't because of Bernie Sanders, Joe Biden, or A.O.C.. This was

Attacking his own citizens is a little more than "awful". But I marched with BLM, so I contributed to direct action, but all of the organizers all agreed that the most important thing to do is VOTE.
I am 25 years old, and I have voted in EVERY election I could, primary, general, and ballot initiative. Bernie lost largely because youth turnout was preposterously low. While direct action is a valuable tool, we as the Left must use every tool in our arsenal, which includes voting, even if it's for the lesser evil or if our candidate has no chance of winning.
I live in Kentucky, a state that voted well after Joe Biden was the only candidate standing, and I STILL voted for Bernie Sanders. I also voted for Charles Booker over Amy McGrath, but McGrath won. Even though I despise ever Capitalist bone in McGrath's body, I will vote for her in November, because getting rid of Mitch McConnell is a battle worth fighting.

Joe Biden has done awful things too. He worked with Obama to devastate the Middle East, was responsible for the infamous crime bill, touched children and women in inappropriate areas, and bullied Anita Hill. Really, look what Biden did to the Middle East, it is really depressing. Biden was even heavily responsible for the Iraq War.

Lets not forget Kamala Harris is a literal pig and has done some awful things too.

Yea, but Trump is worse. To quote Vaush again:

Spoiler: Warning: F-bomb

https://twitter.com/VaushV/status/1294382834040242176?s=19

Now Trump and Pence have done atrocious things like Biden and Harris too. I think more people should be educated on leftism to rise up against capitalism rather than just calm down and vote for Biden. Considering Biden doesn't even want ****ing medicare for all, how effective is Biden going to be at improving your lives? We cannot wait any longer for change, change has to happen now.

Relying on Biden and Harris for change is a bit weak, because they work for Wall Street and the many rich corporations and people. Biden even told Wall Street that nothing will fundamentally change.

Voting isn't the answer, it is time for revolution.

Sorry if that last message sounded too preachy, but I am extremely tired of just relying on electoralism to get things done.

Agreed. Biden is dog s***, but Trump is an active danger who has already resorted to violence. Trump calls Antifa terrorists. Trump called the Neo-Nazis that killed Heather Heyer in Charlottesville "very fine people". Republican Congressmen have actively called for killing Antifa members (which as I explained, since there is no organization, ANYONE deemed a political enemy counts as Antifa). Trump put immigrant kids in concentration camps without regard for safety or hygiene. Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity spout Neo-Nazi propaganda daily by simply replacing "The Jews" with "The Globalists" and other codewords. And the Republican base online ACTIVELY refers to the Left as cancer among other things. What do you do with cancer? You kill it.
This is not George W. Bush we're dealing with. This is an active danger, and allowing Trump a victory in 2020 is signing your own death certificate.
When these people hear about Communists like me, they imagine themselves as Rambo killing off the state enemies. Their ideal solution for me is death, and don't think they won't call for the next leftmost faction to die.
And if you think I'm paranoid, just look what Trump's doing TODAY while he has to still campaign for reelection. I knew in 2016 that Trump would be a disaster, but he has outperformed my wildest nightmares in just the first term.
Biden will not solve our problems, but Trump MUST be defeated, as the alternative could quite literally be genocide.

If you're not voting, you're not giving 100%.
Vote AND march. We must keep violent revolution as an absolute last resort.

Also Vaush sucks, he is racist and transphobic.

1. Completely out of context. At no point did Vaush call Transgenderism a mental illness. In fact, he is an avid trans ally who often calls out Blaire White for her transphobia (She's a trans woman who got an operation, but she doesn't accept trans people who haven't gotten reassignment surgery.).
Vaush often uses hyperbolic language, and he uses "mentally ill" to describe takes that are insanely dumb. He wasn't criticizing the act of being trans; he was criticizing idpol (identity politics). Identity politics is when you hostilely use your status as an oppressed minority to shield yourself from any criticism, claiming it as bigoted against you.
Vaush simply stated that it is not uncommon for trans people to use idpol against him, and he called THAT out.
2. He's apologized for this 1,000 times, stating that his verbiage was too harsh and he understood how his rant could be taken the wrong way.

Also, S StoicPhantom , I'll edit this post later to respond to you assuming there isn't another post on this thread between now and then.
I'm just frankly too lazy to type for this long all at once, but I've got the general idea of my rebuttal.

 

[Deleted member]

Attacking his own citizens is a little more than "awful". But I marched with BLM, so I contributed to direct action, but all of the organizers all agreed that the most important thing to do is VOTE.
I am 25 years old, and I have voted in EVERY election I could, primary, general, and ballot initiative. Bernie lost largely because youth turnout was preposterously low. While direct action is a valuable tool, we as the Left must use every tool in our arsenal, which includes voting, even if it's for the lesser evil or if our candidate has no chance of winning.
I live in Kentucky, a state that voted well after Joe Biden was the only candidate standing, and I STILL voted for Bernie Sanders. I also voted for Charles Booker over Amy McGrath, but McGrath won. Even though I despise ever Capitalist bone in McGrath's body, I will vote for her in November, because getting rid of Mitch McConnell is a battle worth fighting.

You just keep on saying "Trump is worse!!!" rather than saying anything concrete to prove your point. Trump is awful and we need to get him out of power, but rallying behind Democrats rather than not supporting any of them is going to make the Democrats think they can do whatever they want. Sorry to break it to you, but Biden, Harris, and even Sanders and AOC are not your friends. They are politicians. You really need to understand the atrocities committed by all politicians in the United States. Yes, both the Democrats and Republicans are evil malicious people who only care about their donors and money. Biden even orchestrated the ****ing Iraq War. The Iraq War resulted in millions of people dying, and many more children dying from sanctions. Look, I know. Trump is atrocious and authoritarian. However, lets not support another ****ty person to take his place. We need the government to be abolished completely. We either need a new sufficient state, or no state at all. My suggestion is to not rally behind any politician to enact change. The American government has failed. The Democrats, Republicans, and even progressives are working to screw us over. Bernie's delegates had to push him to not accept billionaire money, and Bernie sacrificed his entire movement just to endorse Biden. AOC never calls out Biden and Harris and wants you to support these genocidal Democrats. The point is, politicians are not your friends.

Agreed. Biden is dog s***, but Trump is an active danger who has already resorted to violence. Trump calls Antifa terrorists. Trump called the Neo-Nazis that killed Heather Heyer in Charlottesville "very fine people". Republican Congressmen have actively called for killing Antifa members (which as I explained, since there is no organization, ANYONE deemed a political enemy counts as Antifa). Trump put immigrant kids in concentration camps without regard for safety or hygiene. Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity spout Neo-Nazi propaganda daily by simply replacing "The Jews" with "The Globalists" and other codewords. And the Republican base online ACTIVELY refers to the Left as cancer among other things. What do you do with cancer? You kill it.
This is not George W. Bush we're dealing with. This is an active danger, and allowing Trump a victory in 2020 is signing your own death certificate.
When these people hear about Communists like me, they imagine themselves as Rambo killing off the state enemies. Their ideal solution for me is death, and don't think they won't call for the next leftmost faction to die.
And if you think I'm paranoid, just look what Trump's doing TODAY while he has to still campaign for reelection. I knew in 2016 that Trump would be a disaster, but he has outperformed my wildest nightmares in just the first term.
Biden will not solve our problems, but Trump MUST be defeated, as the alternative could quite literally be genocide.

If you're not voting, you're not giving 100%.
Vote AND march. We must keep violent revolution as an absolute last resort.

Removing Trump is important, but we need to attack the roots, not just a head. We need to educate more people to be opposed to the American state and to fight, not just rally behind Biden. Also you cannot do both. Voting for Biden means you are supporting him, and I would never support someone who supported genocide in the Middle East and wrote the atrocious crime bill. If Biden and Harris win, Trump and Pence will be removed. Trump and Pence being removed is nice, but Biden and Harris are going to be weak as hell, and that could usher in another Republican that is just as lethal or even worse than Trump. Do not dedicate your life to bowing to the Democrats or Republicans. Support communists, socialists, and anarchists. Educate the people, or convince them to be educated. Revolution doesn't need to be a "last resort", it needs to happen now. You need to be completely against the American government, and if progressives don't support the revolutionary cause, then **** them. The American government doesn't need to be "reformed" by progressives, it needs to be abolished. I understand voting for AOC to remove a corrupt politician, but voting for an awful person like Joe Biden means you are supporting this awful person.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Biden will most likely win without your help.

After watching the highly revisionist cringefest that was the DNC; I'm downgrading this to a competitive race. It seems the Dems have decided to double down on the 2016 strategy and their own false dichotomy of voting for one or the other. The fact that people may decide to not vote at all hasn't seemed to cross their minds yet. If the various states can't properly implement mail-in ballots I expect lots of no-shows at the polls and not just because of the pandemic.

 

[Alicorn]

A lot of people have made up their mind and are choosing Biden because they understand how of a danger Trump is to the US. Trump desperately wants to recreate the atmosphere that let him beat Hillary but the problem is the conditions are just not the same. Trump is not a political outsider, he doesn't have the economy to break about. He didn't really keep his promise to coal mining districts and really damaged the farming industry. The wall and the separation of families also got under a lot of people's skin. Also Hillary was a victim of a nearly thirty year rumor mills by people on the far right, it as easy to rouse Trump's base around her. Biden is a lot harder and that's why Trump is having such a hard time pinning Biden down. So Joe Biden has a shoe in to win the election.

 

[Deleted member]

Personally, because of how much of an idiot Trump is as of now, I am betting Biden will win.

Biden has been putting his foot in his mouth a lot, but the pandemic is a huge advantage for Biden in my opinion.

However, even if Biden wins, what will he achieve? He still won't support Medicare for All. His donors control him, not us leftists.

The sad part is the rich won't mind Trump or Biden.

People really need to be more educated on leftism. We need more communists, socialists, and anarchists.

Yes, having progressives in power would be a lot better than having horrible politicians in power, but we need to learn.

The wealthy are the ones who run the government, and they will find a way to pressure progressives.

AOC never attacks Pelosi, even though Pelosi allows for Trump to do all of his evil deeds.

I am not saying you should never vote for a progressive. I would definitely vote for a progressive over a horrible politician any time of the day.

Progressives in office would be much better than corrupt politicians in office.

However, I will not vote for nor support Biden. People need to ****ing learn what horrible things Biden has done. The Republicans and Democrats are ****.

I would take revolution any time of the day over having as much progressives in office as possible. People admire the Nordic countries, and they are far better than America, but they are still capitalist at the end of the day. Social democracy will not last, and it is a failure. We need socialism, communism, or anarchism, not capitalism. I am conflicted on what my sole leftist ideology is, but I like anarchism, Marxism-Leninism, and left communism / left socialism.

Anyways...

Revolution >>>>> Electing Progressives

Please read my entire post before judging my message I made above.

 

[Alicorn]

Shiny the thing about politics is that you have to known when to compromise. You are not going yo get everything you want especially when you are in the minority. When AOC came out with her Green New Deal like clockwork Republicans used that as a means to paint her in a negative light. And it did work for a time. I use to watch Steven Crowder and I bought into the whole AOC is a crazy radical. But after spending time away from that right wing sphere I began to see that AOC fell into the Conservative pitfall trap by coming out with the Green New deal because she was moving too fast and like a car that went over the speed limit she crushed. This was an understanding from my perspective that if AOC wants to achieve her goal she had to wait until Democrats took the Senate because until then Mitch McConnell would not budge on any bill that didn't have what he wanted in it. He has the Senate majority he can keep anything from passing. You have to understand the bind Democrats are in. They have to flip the Senate they have to put up with Mitch because he has his foot on the throat of Congress. Trump is untouchable because of the Senate. The Senate is very important and the Democrats have to be careful about how they deal with the Republicans.

 

[Deleted member]

Shiny the thing about politics is that you have to known when to compromise. You are not going yo get everything you want especially when you are in the minority. When AOC came out with her Green New Deal like clockwork Republicans used that as a means to paint her in a negative light. And it did work for a time. I use to watch Steven Crowder and I bought into the whole AOC is a crazy radical. But after spending time away from that right wing sphere I began to see that AOC fell into the Conservative pitfall trap by coming out with the Green New deal because she was moving too fast and like a car that went over the speed limit she crushed. This was an understanding from my perspective that if AOC wants to achieve her goal she had to wait until Democrats took the Senate because until then Mitch McConnell would not budge on any bill that didn't have what he wanted in it. He has the Senate majority he can keep anything from passing. You have to understand the bind Democrats are in. They have to flip the Senate they have to put up with Mitch because he has his foot on the throat of Congress. Trump is untouchable because of the Senate. The Senate is very important and the Democrats have to be careful about how they deal with the Republicans.

And yet Pelosi allowed Trump to do every single horrible thing. She gave him money for his border wall and military spending. You really need to understand that the American government is a failure. The fact that it is 2020 and our healthcare is still a joke shows how awful the government is at getting things done. You have to stop viewing the Democratic party in a positive light. They are not your friends. The Republicans and Democrats are owned by donors. If the Democrats cared about the people so much, why do a majority of them still vote to keep us in the wars? Why does Obama give billions to the zionist occupation? Why did Obama drone strike children in the Middle East? The answer is the Democratic Party is corrupt, just like the Republicans.

Progressives like AOC and Bernie Sanders bow to the establishment too much. When Bernie Sanders was still in the race, he did not use his leverage once to convince Joe Biden to enact progressive policies. Bernie Sanders and AOC willingly campaign for Biden, and Biden is an atrocious man that was even against social security at one point. The truth is, progressives need to call out the establishment more. They are cowards. Before you say I am being too harsh to them, it is their job to serve us. The establishment is serving the rich, not us. And AOC and Bernie will only call out the Republicans for it. Yes, the Republicans suck, but so do the Democrats. AOC needs to organize movements against the establishment, not just make a ton of tweets. She has a lot of influence and fame. Of course the Republicans are going to pressure progressives. They just need to not be afraid of the Republicans. If the Senate goes against AOC, AOC needs to call out the Senate and organize movements for them, but she won't. The progressives are cowards, as I said before. AOC even voted for the Cares Act, and Bernie's delegates had to stop him from taking billionaire money.

My solution is simple: Revolution.
Destroy the entire government.
If you mess up a painting horribly, you cannot just paint over the errors.
You have to get a new canvas and paint it better.
The American state is counter-revolutionary. Progressives in power are a lot better than corrupt politicians in power, but they won't fix the flaws of capitalism. A lot of people love social democracy and the Nordic countries, but they are still capitalist countries. They rely heavily on imperialism for money, and the flaws of capitalism will eventually be too much.

Remember that the American government is NOT your friend.

 

[Alicorn]

Revolution is not the answer, as much as I favor the Death torat "Get rid of everything and start over again" That isn't something that can be accomplished in a reasonable time. Pelosi has to compromise otherwise government wouldn't function. You know as well as I do that government shutdowns are to be avoided at all cost. If Pelosi did as you suggested then we would not get anything done because nether side would talk to one another. She had to concede to keep the government functioning.

Bernie and AOC have to bow to the establishment because they would not get anywhere by being uncooperative. The last thing Democrats need is a schism in the party, its that schism between the Hillary and Bernie factions that played a role in Trump's rise to power. As for Biden being atrocious Biden was willing to work with Bernie yet Bernie during his debates was being standoffish many voters saw this as a negative that Bernie Sanders is someone who is unwilling to compromise on issues that is something that voters do not want to see again, and Bernie Sanders eventually understood this and opened up to Biden. The right wing sphere was pro Bernie up until he ceded to Biden then they called him a "two time loser" showing that the right was banking on Sanders to divide the Democratic party like he did in 2015..

Bernie Sanders should have taken the money, you can be well funded and still get your message out there. Its utterly foolish to turn out a wealthy backer because you need a lot money to campaign in America that's sadly how America works Bernie would need all the help he could get. AOC had to make a decsion ether give people money they desperately needed or waste more time. It shows how much power the Senate has and how vital it is to get people like Mitch out. Republicans could care less because their base is so partisan that it does not matter what they do they can still get votes, Democrats on the other have to bargain because the average Democrat cares a little more about politics and thus don't want to play partisan games and just want to get things done so the blame would fall on Democrats for not cooperating this the saying (We go high, you go low)


I do not view the Democrats as negatively as I view the Republicans the democratic party is changing yes it isn't changing as fast as people like but it is changing for the better, Unlike the Republicans whom seem to be fighting tooth and nail every election cycle to stay relevant because their base is constantly shrinking and their policies are vastly outdated.

Democrats are afraid of Republicans because Republicans have two things going for them Money and a highly motivated voting block. If you want Democrats to stop being afraid of Republicans you have to mobilize the Democratic base to go out and vote.

I am well aware of the things you mentioned but the stars do not favor a revolution because there are simply not enough progressive voters out pushing for this change. Give it a decade or two and yeah we could see something happen but currently its just really difficult to pull off.

 

[Deleted member]

Revolution is not the answer, as much as I favor the Death torat "Get rid of everything and start over again" That isn't something that can be accomplished in a reasonable time. Pelosi has to compromise otherwise government wouldn't function. You know as well as I do that government shutdowns are to be avoided at all cost. If Pelosi did as you suggested then we would not get anything done because nether side would talk to one another. She had to concede to keep the government functioning.

If a revolution were to happen, Pelosi would never side with us. You have to learn that Pelosi is a corrupt millionaire who only cares what her donors say. If we the people have to compromise with the rich assholes all day, then it isn't really a democracy, eh? A revolution can happen, if we try hard enough. Look at the Cuban revolution, where a few people managed to stop a brutal American-backed dictator. You have to learn that the American government is not democratic. The rich wealthy class own the Republicans and Democrats, and even the progressives at times. They own the entire government.

Bernie and AOC have to bow to the establishment because they would not get anywhere by being uncooperative. The last thing Democrats need is a schism in the party, its that schism between the Hillary and Bernie factions that played a role in Trump's rise to power. As for Biden being atrocious Biden was willing to work with Bernie yet Bernie during his debates was being standoffish many voters saw this as a negative that Bernie Sanders is someone who is unwilling to compromise on issues that is something that voters do not want to see again, and Bernie Sanders eventually understood this and opened up to Biden. The right wing sphere was pro Bernie up until he ceded to Biden then they called him a "two time loser" showing that the right was banking on Sanders to divide the Democratic party like he did in 2015..

Then why are many leftists against the Democratic party now? I have said this before, but Hillary just like Trump doesn't give a **** about us. Hillary was okay with allowing ****ing slavery in Libya. AOC and Bernie Sanders need to oppose the Democratic Party, not just the Republican Party. When Bernie Sanders was asked about his thoughts on Wall Street being happy with Harris, he did not slam Harris at all. If Bernie and AOC were truly progressive, they would oppose the establishment. It is not just the Republicans that are evil, remember, Democrats have agreed to all of the nasty things the United States has done.

Bernie Sanders should have taken the money, you can be well funded and still get your message out there. Its utterly foolish to turn out a wealthy backer because you need a lot money to campaign in America that's sadly how America works Bernie would need all the help he could get. AOC had to make a decsion ether give people money they desperately needed or waste more time. It shows how much power the Senate has and how vital it is to get people like Mitch out. Republicans could care less because their base is so partisan that it does not matter what they do they can still get votes, Democrats on the other have to bargain because the average Democrat cares a little more about politics and thus don't want to play partisan games and just want to get things done so the blame would fall on Democrats for not cooperating this the saying (We go high, you go low)

If Bernie were to take that money, then the billionaires would have more access to him. No boot licking.
Yes, Mitch is evil and he needs to be out, but like I said, aim for the roots.
As long as the American government exists, the rich will use their power to oppose any actual change. We need to get more people to learn about how horrible the government actually is. America is a dystopia.

I do not view the Democrats as negatively as I view the Republicans the democratic party is changing yes it isn't changing as fast as people like but it is changing for the better, Unlike the Republicans whom seem to be fighting tooth and nail every election cycle to stay relevant because their base is constantly shrinking and their policies are vastly outdated.

Democrats are afraid of Republicans because Republicans have two things going for them Money and a highly motivated voting block. If you want Democrats to stop being afraid of Republicans you have to mobilize the Democratic base to go out and vote.

I am well aware of the things you mentioned but the stars do not favor a revolution because there are simply not enough progressive voters out pushing for this change. Give it a decade or two and yeah we could see something happen but currently its just really difficult to pull off.

The Democratic Party literally voted to stay in the wars, and they backed down from Obamacare. Obamacare was a right-wing idea by the way. Democrats have money too. Wall Street even breathed a sigh of relief when Harris was chosen to be vice president. The reason why a revolution is not happening yet is because there are many uneducated people who trust in the government too much. If farmers in Vietnam can beat the French and American empire, then we can do it. It is not like a revolution will happen right now, but we need to make more people into communists, socialists, and anarchists. If we just continue to enable any corrupt Democrat because "they aren't a Republican", then the donors can choose any asshole Democrat they want. We have to pressure the elites, not bow to them.

 

[uhmuzing]

So jumping in here, (I haven’t even posted on SB in months, randomly came across this lol). @ShinyLegendary I share your sentiment about a working class revolution being the only possibility for decisively ending the insanity of U.S. foreign policy. But it’s also true that there is a conviction (obviously not a consensus) among anarchists that voting for Biden is crucial in November in order to avert the catastrophic damage a second Trump term would wreak on global climate. Noam Chomsky and Nathan Robinson are two such anarchists I can think of who hold this position.

I think it’s possible to acknowledge that Biden and Democrats will continue to perpetuate grave harm to this country and the world at large, while at the same time recognize that Trump and Republicans are so much worse that our responsibilities include holding our nose and doing the simplest thing possible (voting) to prevent destruction to the world that would outpace the ability of revolution to coalesce quickly enough. I would like to imagine the collapse of capitalism is imminent, but atm there just isn’t enough mass political consciousness or organization. Or it seems to me. I would agree that stressing the power of the working class and attacking liberal complacency generally is much more productive than GOTV efforts. But meanwhile the U.S. is cooking the earth, and the Republicans endeavor to sadistically dismantle every environmental protection and regulation ever implemented. I’m very skeptical of Biden’s commitment to his climate plan, which is in the first place insufficient, but there’s still a pretty wide gulf here between parties.

Related, I shudder to think how Republicans’ ambition will grow if Trump is able further to pack the nation’s courts. You might say the courts are irrelevant if they are to be dismantled, but lives will be ruined until such time.

 

[StoicPhantom]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/politics/midterm-election-precinct-results/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d279dabed10a

That's a small snapshot of the overall data, but the Dems have ultimately become the party of the wealthy elite. Not only was their midterm surge thanks to the wealthy, they also control almost all of the wealthy districts in the country. Combine that with the parade of billionaires and Republicans at the DNC, and it's pretty clear that Dems are looking to replace their working class voters with this new demographic.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/rightwing-populism-post-trump-gop.html

Conversely, the Republicans have become the party of the working class. Pay special attention to how Trump has a hold on a chunk of minorities, particularly Latinos. It shows there is still a particular reverence among the working for him. Spin on the article and its links aside, there's been a major demographic change in the Republican party.


It makes sense then as to why Trump won where Bernie failed twice. Trump may be a billionaire, but he is culturally and aesthetically lower class. That makes him a pariah among his own class, but a hero among the working class. Bernie shares the same aesthetics and enjoys broad support from the working class, but is repudiated by the now wealthy Dem voter demographics for his lower class aesthetics. The GOP leadership is completely out of touch with its base, so they got steamrolled by Trump's populism. Bernie was out of touch with the new demographics in the Democratic party and was rejected multiple times.

What's gotten lost in all the commotion is a realignment of the two major parties. The GOP has been bleeding upper class support that the Dems are now courting. When you put that in perspective; the fact that there were several billionaires vying for the Dem nominee, support groups full of disgraced neocons like the Lincoln Project have been popping up in support for Biden, and the DNC was basically a giant whitewashing of every thing right of center left, then it becomes clear that the establishment is using the party to regroup and consolidate their power after the populism shock. Bernie was there to ritualize his defeat; AOC was there as his delegate to conform to convention rules. But almost everyone else there is in that neoliberal club.

Trump still has a pretty good shot at winning this providing that he stop being stupid and trying to out law and order a literal cop and an architect of the 94 crime bill and get back to populism. But more important is what comes after Trump. The GOP isn't going back to "normal" anymore than a Biden win will close the lid on populism and return things to their idea of normal. What's going to happen is there's going to be a major power vacuum that the current GOP will be unable to fill.


If Progressives and the left in general were smart, they would join forces with the Republican base under a populist economic message and complete the realignment by hijacking the Republican party. Instead, their obsession with the Democrats seems to be putting them on a path of trying to swim against the current and pissing away their momentum while the Republican party remains in limbo in lieu of any real populist leaders, and thus making it ripe for actual fascists to potentially hijack it.


tl;dr: The future of the left is with the Republicans not the Democrats, but they're too cucked to see it.

 

[Deleted member]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/politics/midterm-election-precinct-results/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d279dabed10a

That's a small snapshot of the overall data, but the Dems have ultimately become the party of the wealthy elite. Not only was their midterm surge thanks to the wealthy, they also control almost all of the wealthy districts in the country. Combine that with the parade of billionaires and Republicans at the DNC, and it's pretty clear that Dems are looking to replace their working class voters with this new demographic.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/rightwing-populism-post-trump-gop.html

Conversely, the Republicans have become the party of the working class. Pay special attention to how Trump has a hold on a chunk of minorities, particularly Latinos. It shows there is still a particular reverence among the working for him. Spin on the article and its links aside, there's been a major demographic change in the Republican party.


It makes sense then as to why Trump won where Bernie failed twice. Trump may be a billionaire, but he is culturally and aesthetically lower class. That makes him a pariah among his own class, but a hero among the working class. Bernie shares the same aesthetics and enjoys broad support from the working class, but is repudiated by the now wealthy Dem voter demographics for his lower class aesthetics. The GOP leadership is completely out of touch with its base, so they got steamrolled by Trump's populism. Bernie was out of touch with the new demographics in the Democratic party and was rejected multiple times.

What's gotten lost in all the commotion is a realignment of the two major parties. The GOP has been bleeding upper class support that the Dems are now courting. When you put that in perspective; the fact that there were several billionaires vying for the Dem nominee, support groups full of disgraced neocons like the Lincoln Project have been popping up in support for Biden, and the DNC was basically a giant whitewashing of every thing right of center left, then it becomes clear that the establishment is using the party to regroup and consolidate their power after the populism shock. Bernie was there to ritualize his defeat; AOC was there as his delegate to conform to convention rules. But almost everyone else there is in that neoliberal club.

Trump still has a pretty good shot at winning this providing that he stop being stupid and trying to out law and order a literal cop and an architect of the 94 crime bill and get back to populism. But more important is what comes after Trump. The GOP isn't going back to "normal" anymore than a Biden win will close the lid on populism and return things to their idea of normal. What's going to happen is there's going to be a major power vacuum that the current GOP will be unable to fill.


If Progressives and the left in general were smart, they would join forces with the Republican base under a populist economic message and complete the realignment by hijacking the Republican party. Instead, their obsession with the Democrats seems to be putting them on a path of trying to swim against the current and pissing away their momentum while the Republican party remains in limbo in lieu of any real populist leaders, and thus making it ripe for actual fascists to potentially hijack it.


tl;dr: The future of the left is with the Republicans not the Democrats, but they're too cucked to see it.

Hmm, I don't think the Republicans will ever side with the left. Trump loves calling his opponents like Biden or Harris far-left or Marxists. Both the Republicans and Democrats are ****ty. I think the left should stop clinging onto the Democrats and be completely independent from the government. Organize movements that scare Washington D.C., not become a part of Washington D.C.. AOC was quite promising a few years ago, and now she willingly follows the Democratic party, even though they **** her over like only giving her a minute on the DNC. Voting for progressives in office is a good idea, and I think you should do it to remove the worse politicians, but progressives under Washington D.C. can become a lot worse, because Washington D.C. is a toxic environment. You see a lot of progressives get hyped when Obama, a horrible war criminal, endorses them, and that should make you uncomfortable. Too many progressives also align themselves with the Democrats. I wish more people would be happy with revolution. We need more communists, anarchists, and socialists, not progressives. The Nordic countries aren't the answer, a revolution is the answer.

Sorry if I got a bit off-track, but I had to vent. The establishment, which includes both Republicans and Democrats, isn't the answer.

So jumping in here, (I haven’t even posted on SB in months, randomly came across this lol). @ShinyLegendary I share your sentiment about a working class revolution being the only possibility for decisively ending the insanity of U.S. foreign policy. But it’s also true that there is a conviction (obviously not a consensus) among anarchists that voting for Biden is crucial in November in order to avert the catastrophic damage a second Trump term would wreak on global climate. Noam Chomsky and Nathan Robinson are two such anarchists I can think of who hold this position.

I think it’s possible to acknowledge that Biden and Democrats will continue to perpetuate grave harm to this country and the world at large, while at the same time recognize that Trump and Republicans are so much worse that our responsibilities include holding our nose and doing the simplest thing possible (voting) to prevent destruction to the world that would outpace the ability of revolution to coalesce quickly enough. I would like to imagine the collapse of capitalism is imminent, but atm there just isn’t enough mass political consciousness or organization. Or it seems to me. I would agree that stressing the power of the working class and attacking liberal complacency generally is much more productive than GOTV efforts. But meanwhile the U.S. is cooking the earth, and the Republicans endeavor to sadistically dismantle every environmental protection and regulation ever implemented. I’m very skeptical of Biden’s commitment to his climate plan, which is in the first place insufficient, but there’s still a pretty wide gulf here between parties.

Related, I shudder to think how Republicans’ ambition will grow if Trump is able further to pack the nation’s courts. You might say the courts are irrelevant if they are to be dismantled, but lives will be ruined until such time.

I would say voting for Biden is a pretty hot debate within the left, but there are anarchists I know who won't vote at all. Biden even said he would prosecute anarchists. I cannot just bring myself to vote for Biden, because he didn't just write the crime bill, look what he did in the Middle East. He also sided with segregationists, and touches children inappropriately. I ****ing hate Trump too, and what really upsets me is that if Biden loses, the liberals are going to blame a lot of the left for Biden's loss rather than the fact that Biden was a ****ing ****ty candidate. What scares me is that if Biden wins, the Democrats are going to be encouraged to continue to choose ****ty nominations from the Democratic Party. If Trump wins, well, America will be even more of a ****ing hell than it already is. It just really sucks, and this is why we need revolution as quickly as possible. Educate people on leftism, and the evils of the American government.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Hmm, I don't think the Republicans will ever side with the left.

That would depend on whether you are talking about Republican leadership or Republican voters. Most of the polls regarding Republican voter opinion on Medicare for all tends to be somewhere in the forties. That's obviously not a majority, but if you were to add disenfranchised left-wing and independent voters it would push that well into the majority. I don't really have time to dive into other policies, but I expect a lot of the major parts of Bernie's economic platform could fall into that category as well.

The Democrats technically overwhelm the Republicans in their support for Bernie's platform, but paradoxically keep voting for leadership that rejects it. Either they're lying to keep up appearances or are too cucked to change leaders. Possibly a mix of both. Either way, there is strong opposition from the Dem leadership that the left isn't going to be able to surmount.

But the Republican leadership does not seem to have a strong grip on their base. I know the going narrative is the opposite, but when the Dems spend every waking moment ****ting on the Republican voters it's not really surprising that they refuse to vote Democrat under any circumstances. Donald Trump utterly destroying the combined might of the GOP proves that. It's not like it was a close race or he fluked his way through somehow; he absolutely landslided every flavor of GOP candidate. The Dems chalk it up to some sort of black magic, but the strong overlap between Trump and Bernie indicates that economic populism is what the base currently favors.

I'm not saying that they are going to immediately see eye to eye on every issue, but I think times are desperate enough that both camps would be willing to form a coalition. And if you add in Independents, then you could easily fracture the current GOP leadership into something more representative of the working class. It's just a matter of getting the left to stop being so infatuated with the Dems.

Organize movements that scare Washington D.C.

I'm not discounting this and think it should be done regardless, but I've been finding rhetoric around this rather vague. Getting people organized and out protesting is good, but there needs to be some sort of goal or framework to rally around. Not in terms of policy, but in terms of tactics that would effect the desired movement in Congress.

The Civil Rights movement had marches and targeted boycotts that helped create some of the change it was looking for. The bus boycotts in Montgomery went on for over a year and succeeded in damaging bus profits to get things moving through the courts and bus segregation was declared unconstitutional. Business boycotts in Birmingham over racially segregated bathrooms or white only hirings were successful as well. Organizing hundreds of thousands in a march on Washington is credited as being crucial to the passing of the CRA.

But that was in a completely different landscape. There was no major pandemic, the economy was not collapsing, and businesses were not already shutdown and weren't receiving government aid. It is uncertain if we can sustain years worth of marches when almost half of America is in danger of losing their homes, food bank lines are several miles long, and there's the ever present danger of a deadly virus.

It's also rather difficult to organize a general strike against business that is already shutdown due to the pandemic. And the remaining corporations have a steady stream of financial aid coming from the Federal Reserve. I'm not sure that boycotting essential businesses that supply you important things like food can be sustained for very long, let alone long enough to bleed the Fed dry, and that's going to come back to bite you in the ass through austerity measures in a couple years. And I'm not really sure how boycotting Walmart is going to lead to Medicare for all.

Then finally there's putting pressure on the government, but how exactly do you intend to do that? Marching is all well and good, but is it actually putting pressure on the government? It seems like some local governments are bending over backwards to acknowledge the protests, but have been rather light on policy. What little policy there is seems to be getting tied up in the courts. It feels like Washington has been insulated quite well and it doesn't help that voters are getting distracted on the culture wars between the parties and are falling right in line with the establishment.


So I'm not discounting any of this, but I have lots of concerns that haven't adequately addressed. I kind of feel like the pandemic has really helped the establishment in insulating itself from any sort of insurgency. It makes me think that we need to draw on Great Depression era politics since that is the closest equivalent to the situation we have now. But the coalition of the Socialist and Communist parties and the labor unions and self-described socialist president have been eradicated a long time ago. There's currently no real political organization around these goals.

That's why I feel like attacking the weakest link, which is currently the Republican party that's in chaos, is the quickest path. It's probably among the least likely unless a working class hero somehow ends up taking over after Trump, but I'm not really seeing a real path elsewhere. And it doesn't help that it increasingly looks like the establishment would rather the country burn down than give up their power and it's kind of difficult to negotiate with an entity that is completely deranged.

 

[Ridley64]

Biden will likely win. I know it, we all know it, why bother hiding it?
And why was Trump nominated?

 

[Deleted member]

And why was Trump nominated?

Because this is capitalism.
In a capitalist system, the wealthy can nominate the ****test people for president.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I'm hoping Biden wins because Trump and his supporters are, frankly, lunatics. I hate that both candidates show signs of dementia but here we are.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm hoping Biden wins because Trump and his supporters are, frankly, lunatics. I hate that both candidates show signs of dementia but here we are.

It is sad that we have to choose between two ****ty people. America is not a democracy.

Biden always ignores policy, but always does stuff that will not absolutely help like this:

Joe Biden launches digital campaign yard signs for Animal Crossing

The presidential hopeful is targeting casual gamers.

www.cnet.com

Meanwhile Trump is constantly doing stupid stuff everyday, and is making things worse.

I really hate this country.

 

[StrangeKitten]

It is sad that we have to choose between two ****ty people. America is not a democracy.

Biden always ignores policy, but always does stuff that will not absolutely help like this:

Joe Biden launches digital campaign yard signs for Animal Crossing

The presidential hopeful is targeting casual gamers.

www.cnet.com

Meanwhile Trump is constantly doing stupid stuff everyday, and is making things worse.

I really hate this country.

I'm sad that we have a second presidential election in a row in which both candidates are just... very, very unappealing. Because the same happened in 2016

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sad that we have a second presidential election in a row in which both candidates are just... very, very unappealing. Because the same happened in 2016

Bernie is quite flawed, but Bernie should have definitely won.

If Bernie won, you guarantee I would be enthusiastic for him.

Too bad you either have to choose between neo-fascism, or neo-liberalism, and I hate both.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And why was Trump nominated?

Because he was the incumbent?

 

[---]

I still fully expect President Trump to win re-election.

Spoiler

Incumbent Advantage - Not too much to say here. If the economy was still kicking and a few hundred thousand were still alive I think this would be a lot more on people's radars. That said people have short term memories and should be a vaccine (real or not) be announced/teased before November 3rd, I fully expect this to be back in full force.

Electoral College - National polling is kind of misleading (granted polling is predicting the weather and shouldn't be seen as forgone conclusions). What really matters is how a few thousand people are feeling in a few select areas in a few select States. At the current time based on past election results it's undeniable that it benefits the Right more than the Left.

Support - President Trump's support hasn't really changed and if anything has gotten more vocal. Maybe it's because I've never lived in a district where a moderate to Left candidate has won in years, but the enthusiasm I see for President Trump is everywhere. The Left's ground game is terrible as far as I can tell. I see more pop-up MAGA rallies on a weekly basis than I have seen for the Left yearly. I got scolded by customers at my old grocery store job when I broke the news that we didn't sell MAGA hats. There is the argument that the GOP is getting smaller and smaller but whether or not will have any meaningful effect remains to be seen.

The Left - The Left, be you moderate or progressive, really doesn't see just how many things are skewed against them, but still think they can get their agenda accomplished. THE LEFT GOT 3 MILLION MORE VOTES IN 2016 BUT STILL LOST. The Right understands that power begets power. The Left requires voting in large numbers in order to get anywhere, the Right only needs to make voting harder; and they have. Considering everything that is at stake for the Left's agenda, many are still playing the enthusiasm or morals game rather than voting strategically. The Right? Well just look at who's in the White House and everything they've gotten the past few years.

I would love to vote for someone who shares the same values that I do outside Primaries or have more than two viable parties, but that's not the reality of the situation. How we came to this point, one that the Founders feared mind you, is worth discussion, but IMO I'd rather wait until we get President Trump out of the White House. With the Census (Gerrymandering!), (Two) Supreme Court seats that both lean Left, Global Warming, Health Care, and a Pandemic on the line, this is should be the biggest no brainer for the Left in history, but we're still arguing about the Primaries and acting like not voting will somehow advance the Left's agenda/that politicians value consistent voters & non-voters equally.

The Democratic Party is definitely problematic in their shift towards the wealthy elite and unwillingness to act on certain issues but I do think that can be changed overtime by voting down ballot and voting consistently. Compromise is definitely an important part of politics, as even after President Trump is gone we'll still be living with those who we disagree with, but it's much easier to negotiate for things you want when you have the power to back it up which the Left does not have right now in Washington. Also let's be honest, no matter who the Democratic candidate was you can bet the Right will stonewall EVERYTHING bi-partisan or not (ACA was based on an existing Republican idea!) and President Trump will still have access to Twitter & Fox News.

Biden, I'm personally more than happy to vote for as it would mean we can get back someone in the White House who can read, is willing to listen to experts, and has some humility. This election isn't about singular issues or personalities for me. Irregardless of that, nothing I personally want to see passed has absolutely no chance under President Trump vs. a slight chance with a President Biden, and while that is both due to ideological differences & an inherent problem with our political system, is still the reality of this coming election.

Election Interference - Not saying this election will be rigged, at least anymore than it already has with Voter Suppression, but it will still very much be a element if not more so than in 2016. While this should be a bi-partisan issue little to no action has been taken outside of a few select States and has more or less been okay'd by GOP Senate and outright by President Trump after their refusals to prepare, hold actors (domestic & foreign) accountable, and ignoring evidence.

Voter Suppression - Not to much say here. Post Office, Closing Down Polling Places, Purges, Restrictions, Poll Taxes, Gerrymandering, etc.

Thought I'd get my thoughts out of way and outside the Backroom. I may or may not respond to quotes, but felt like getting somethings off my chest. Both Centrists & Progressives need to do a better job of working together and work within the reality of the situation they're in. I'm sick of the blame game between both camps of the Democratic party. The Left sucks at politics while the Right sucks at governing.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Support - President Trump's support hasn't really changed and if anything has gotten more vocal. Maybe it's because I've never lived in a district where a moderate to Left candidate has one in years, but the enthusiasm I see for President Trump is everywhere. The Left's ground game is terrible as far as I can tell. I see more pop-up MAGA rallies on a weekly basis than I have seen for the Left yearly. I got scolded by customers at my old grocery store job when I broke the news that we didn't sell MAGA hats. There is the argument that the GOP is getting smaller and smaller but whether or not will have any meaningful effect remains to be seen.

There was a candidate that had an impeccable ground game, massive rallies, and very broad support across all lines of the political spectrum. He was passed over for a doddering geriatric whose mind is on its last legs and whose own base has admitted they don't really care about him and were only worried about Trump.

Your issue here lies not with Da Left but the Democratic Party of which is not a synonym of said Left. Said Democratic Party runs on the idea that they are the sole representatives of all that is good and righteous and thus it is self-evident who you should vote for and they don't need to do things like voter outreach.

Global Warming, Health Care, and a Pandemic on the line, this is should be the biggest no brainer for the Left in history

You make a pretty good point here, so why in the holy hell are the Dem leaders not running on any of this?

Why are they rejecting a proper healthcare system in the middle of a pandemic and moving from employer based insurance in a period of record job losses since the Great Depression?

Why did they drop provisions in their platform that would end subsidies and tax breaks for fossil fuels in the face of climate change?

Why must we pretend the Democrats are so much better than the Republicans on these issues when they are demonstrably not?

Yeah, this is a no brainer because the last time we had such a political climate we got one of the most progressive administrations in American history. With such a pie in the sky policy agenda that included building a giant road through the entire country and guaranteeing income and retirement to every citizen in the country through Social Security. Can you imagine trying to do those things in today's political climate? Where the deficit is the most important issue and change is scary?

Well yes you can because COVID managed to repudiate every conventional assumption and corporate propaganda. Imagine trying to fearmonger about the deficit and the public coffers when you just spent 4 trillion bailing out every major corporation, including cruise lines and private equity.

Imagine trying to fearmonger Medicare for all when your entire healthcare system is on the verge of collapse and that private plan you could keep went out the window with your job.

Imagine trying to fearmonger about taxing the rich depressing innovation and talent when the public just unilaterally bailed out their assets twice to the tune of trillions in a decade due to their dumb decisions.

Imagine worrying about rhetoric concerning free handouts when Congress has basically attached an umbilical cord from the Federal Reserve to billion dollar companies that weren't smart enough to keep cash reserves while over 1/3 of small businesses have collapsed due to quarantine policies.

Imagine trying to still push supply side economics and fearmongering over the minimum wage when the absence of labor is what kicked off all this in the first place.


Imagine not using the above as leverage against this allegedly impregnable Republican stone wall and still meekly going along with what the GOP says and does.

Imagine believing you can't pass a left-wing agenda when all the ingredients to do so have fallen into your lap.

Once again it's not Da Left that is the issue here. It's the Democratic Party that keeps ****ing up. Why people are still arguing about the primaries might have something to do with the current Dem leadership squandering the biggest chance America has for change in almost a century. Why people are acting like not voting is appealing might have less to do with utility and more to do with the fact that voting is routinely proven to be a complete waste of time. No matter how unpopular, the establishment candidate will always win in a Dem primary. Hillary Clinton proved that and so did Biden.

but it's much easier to negotiate for things you want when you have the power to back it up which the Left does not have right now in Washington. Also let's be honest, no matter who the Democratic candidate was you can bet the Right will stonewall EVERYTHING bi-partisan or not (ACA was based on an existing Republican idea!) and President Trump will still have access to Twitter & Fox News.

So long as you don't look back to the previous administration's super majority. That magical time where they had absolute power to do anything they wanted and proceeded to do absolutely nothing with it. Imagine going with the ACA instead of a single payer system like every other developed country. The fact that not once but twice in the last century the Democrats had a super majority and didn't deliver on their promises at all completely kills the "but the Republicans!!!" argument. There's no point in giving them power if they refuse to wield it.

Both Centrists & Progressives need to do a better job of working together and work within the reality of the situation they're in. I'm sick of the blame game between both camps of the Democratic party. The Left sucks at politics while the Right sucks at governing.

Your entire post is framed in a way that takes all scrutiny and responsibility from those with actual power and puts blame on random voters with no power or voice. Something that's incredibly common among Democrats, but annoying regardless. All of the strategy, messaging, policy crafting, voter outreach, and politicking rests solely with the Dem leadership. Their victory is their responsibility and their defeat is their fault.

It's also a rather self-centered one that's based off of several assumptions such as the Democrats being self-evidently good, Republicans being self-evidently bad, and that voters are abstract concepts that must engage in an epic struggle between absolute good and absolute evil. The typical Dem narrative.

In all honesty, you're completely delusional if you think voters will sacrifice themselves for "strategic voting" to further your culture war (under threat of being labeled a __ist). Donald Trump won not because of the electoral college, not because "the Right" knows politics, but because he managed to clear the low bar of appearing to be interested in the public good. The Democrats are still running on the strategy of their appeal being self-evident and that you are bad if you don't see it. He's not some anomaly or force of nature; his opponent's were quite literally that bad. I don't just mean the Democrats either. For all the power the Republicans allegedly have, they let a reality star buffoon landslide their superstars.


Democrats being perpetual losers in every sense of the word is entirely their own fault. Da Left has nothing to do with it, so don't drag them into it. Democrats have constructed a narrative that has excluded large swaths of the population while simultaneously demanding voters work for their benefit. For all the talk of compromise, the Dems have not actually made any real effort to make things mutually beneficial. There's lots of demands being put on people that don't have much left to give, but Democrats haven't actually offered anything in return.

Why on earth should anyone vote for the Party that labels them racist on the basis of their skin color, tries to pander to them with candidates they think are "folksy" while referring to their home state as a "flyover state" AKA that thing you travel over when you go somewhere interesting, and call them privileged when they can barely put food on the table?

Why on earth should Midwesterners vote for the architects of their economy's destruction? Why should Southerners vote for a party that has written them of as racists? Why should I vote for a candidate that's dedicated a large part of his career to dismantling my Social Security (that I need to survive)? Why should my peers vote for the candidate that made it impossible to declare bankruptcy on their student debt?

Why should anyone vote for a candidate that refuses to make any real amends for these transgressions or rectify them?


You have not yet made one good case for why people should do what you say they should do. Neither has the Democratic Party on the whole. "The Democratic Party is definitely problematic in their shift towards the wealthy elite and unwillingness to act on certain issues" is an incredibly mild way of putting what is ultimately a fundamental issue that has destroyed so many lives and futures. If the Democrats want to be some sort of ally of justice, they need to actually step and do something. Constantly whining about how they have no power and then immediately abdicating it when they get it is simply not going to sway any minds.

Until Democrats stop sniffing their own farts and actually attempt to engage with people outside their bubble, they are always going to be struggling against the similarly incompetent GOP. It really isn't that difficult to win this election.

 

[Deleted member]

Reminder the first presidential debate is occuring in September 29, which is less than two weeks.

I still fully expect President Trump to win re-election.

I read your post, and these are pretty strong points. However, I think Biden has some major advantages too. This pandemic and Trump's horrible handling of it really gives Biden an advantage. The sad part is, I cannot think of any other advantage Biden has. He's basically not Trump, and that is it.

I personally think Biden will win, but it will be close. The only reasoning is many people hate Trump, and Trump keeps on doing stupid actions that make even more people hate him.

Compromise is definitely an important part of politics, as even after President Trump is gone we'll still be living with those who we disagree with, but it's much easier to negotiate for things you want when you have the power to back it up

Here is the issue. Politicians are supposed to be serving us, not the elite. We shouldn't have to compromise over basic rights. The fact that Biden STILL won't support Medicare for All and a Green New Deal shows that he is out of touch, and he only cares about the wealthy elite.

 

[Melonsismyusername]

Biden's gonna win and be 4-8 more years of the same establishment democrat, but I think whats more important is that the Gop is at a cross roads, do they stick with trump-ism or Bail.

 

[Deleted member]

Worker's Revolution 2020

Biden's gonna win and be 4-8 more years of the same establishment democrat, but I think whats more important is that the Gop is at a cross roads, do they stick with trump-ism or Bail.

The GOP is just going to nominate ****ty candidates.

As for the Democrats, liberals and progressives are too soft on Biden. If Biden loses, the attacks on anarchists and communists from liberals is going to be painful.

Liberals are going to blame Biden's loss on people who knew Biden was atrocious rather than blaming the Democrats for nominating a horrible candidate. I am only saying this if Biden loses.

I'm not saying all communists and anarchists aren't voting for Biden. A portion of them will, but they will most likely dread it.

 

[Deleted member]

While I’m not old enough to vote yet, it’s still clear as day the U.S as a whole is ****ed.

Either we get the same senile man in office for another 4 years, or we get what may or may not be a slighly worse senile man in office. Couple that with the recent death of one of the Supreme Justices(who also was a major advocate of civil rights for all, even to her final day) and now we have what is easily the worst possible scenario we could have had, sans a likely cataclysmic extinction event. At this point it’s just a “pick the lesser two evils” election, and unless something major springs up before the election., these next 4 years... are gonna be hell on earth. Especially when climate change is being practically ignored and we’re essentially doing nothing to stop it.

 

[Deleted member]

Just going to leave this image here.

 

[StrangeKitten]

BIDEN too far left? Hahaha... ha... ha... ha...

It would be funny if there weren't far too many imbeciles who think that.

 

[Deleted member]

BIDEN too far left? Hahaha... ha... ha... ha...

It would be funny if there weren't far too many imbeciles who think that.

It is sad how idiotic liberals are.

If Biden loses, liberals will have a toxic war with green party voters and nonvoters. If Biden wins, then liberals will return back to sleep and never pressure Biden.

We live in a tragic timeline.

 

[StrangeKitten]

It is sad how idiotic liberals are.

If Biden loses, liberals will have a toxic war with green party voters and nonvoters. If Biden wins, then liberals will return back to sleep and never pressure Biden.

We live in a tragic timeline.

And then you have the conservatives who think Biden will usher in tons of Socialism if he wins. Not all conservatives, but definitely a lot.

 

[Deleted member]

And then you have the conservatives who think Biden will usher in tons of Socialism if he wins. Not all conservatives, but definitely a lot.

Conservatives are so stuck in their own dumb world.

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

It is sad how idiotic liberals are.

If Biden loses, liberals will have a toxic war with green party voters and nonvoters. If Biden wins, then liberals will return back to sleep and never pressure Biden.

We live in a tragic timeline.

I don't understand this mentality at all. Is anyone who doesn't subscribe to Far left ideals an idiot to you?

 

[Deleted member]

I don't understand this mentality at all.

It's pretty easy to understand. Liberals are hyping Biden up too much. Biden has said many times he won't fundamentally change much.

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

It's pretty easy to understand. Liberals are hyping Biden up too much. Biden has said many times he won't fundamentally change much.

Not what I'm asking about.

 

[Deleted member]

Is anyone who doesn't subscribe to Far left ideals an idiot to you?

I won't hate you if you are not an anarchist nor communist, don't worry. I am friendly.

I just feel like the far left is for me.

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

I won't hate you if you are not an anarchist nor communist, don't worry. I am friendly.

I just feel like the far left is for me.

You've been calling anyone who is anything to the right of far left stupid, idiotic, dumb, etc, though.

 

[Deleted member]

You've been calling anyone who is anything to the right of far left stupid, idiotic, dumb, etc, though.

Yes, because they make dumb takes that aren't true at all.

 

[ZaneHitsurugi]

Yes, because they make dumb takes that aren't true at all.

Some do, yes. As I'm sure that there are some in the group that you are in have takes that can be considered equally as dumb.

 

[Deleted member]

Some do, yes. As I'm sure that there are some in the group that you are in have takes that can be considered equally as dumb.

Yes, reactionaries are a problem. I wouldn't consider reactionaries leftists, however.

It kind of depends more on your point of view to view a take as dumb in the far left.

There's lots of infighting, but it can kind of be summed up as tankies vs anarchists.

I'm biased and I will say tankies make quite dumb takes. Some anarchists don't even view them as left.