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Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
so getting back to the topic at hand
View attachment 77558
so before you start hating me for this let me explain
Link Marth and Pichu
Link: i put him a bit lower than what other people think because well... i just think that Y.link is better than mario and dk but i think link is worse than them
Marth: i don't think i have to say this but marth seems to get more results than falco
Pichu: putting him above game is debeatable but i think it works because at least pichu can L-cancel ALL of his air attacks
any dissagreements?
This is precisely the issue I brought up earlier. Marth and Falco's placement is based off results but you begin using more and more theory and speculation the lower you get on the tier list.

So my question is, if results are the most important, why rank characters who don't have significant results? Shouldn't characters like bowser, pichu, link, etc get omitted?

If theory is more important, then why aren't you applying the same speculative thought to Marth and Falco? Clearly you can't ignore results, but since characters like Link or Pichu really don't have them to make the final decision, you should just follow your personal beliefs for every character. Again, the more data you have, the more you should be able to theorize
 
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pichuplayer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Messages
230
Location
saffron city
This is precisely the issue I brought up earlier. Marth and Falco's placement is based off results but you begin using more and more theory and speculation the lower you get on the tier list.

So my question is, if results are the most important, why rank characters who don't have significant results? Shouldn't characters like bowser, pichu, link, etc get omitted?

If theory is more important, then why aren't you applying the same speculative thought to Marth and Falco? Clearly you can't ignore results, but since characters like Link or Pichu really don't have them to make the final decision, you should just follow your personal beliefs for every character. Again, the more data you have, the more you should be able to theorize
yes but if its personal beliefs well...pichu would be higher anyway to me most of the characters are set in stone to me Link marth falco and pichu are the only ones that are not marth could be second or 3rd same with falco Link could be just below Y.link or below mario and DK also and Pichu could be anywhere between 24-19 imo
 

TacoLord9000

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 28, 2015
Messages
69
Location
Waco, TX
so getting back to the topic at hand
View attachment 77558
so before you start hating me for this let me explain
Link Marth and Pichu
Link: i put him a bit lower than what other people think because well... i just think that Y.link is better than mario and dk but i think link is worse than them
Marth: i don't think i have to say this but marth seems to get more results than falco
Pichu: putting him above game is debeatable but i think it works because at least pichu can L-cancel ALL of his air attacks
any dissagreements?
How are Bowser and Ness better than Mewtwo? Have you never seen Taj play Mewtwo?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
guyz i put this character above the other one pepl wanted cuz i think ther beter

Why does everyone keep saying this with their tier list? It's not a reason, that's just how you make a tier list...
 

MagicScrumpy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2015
Messages
251
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
This is precisely the issue I brought up earlier. Marth and Falco's placement is based off results but you begin using more and more theory and speculation the lower you get on the tier list.

So my question is, if results are the most important, why rank characters who don't have significant results? Shouldn't characters like bowser, pichu, link, etc get omitted?

If theory is more important, then why aren't you applying the same speculative thought to Marth and Falco? Clearly you can't ignore results, but since characters like Link or Pichu really don't have them to make the final decision, you should just follow your personal beliefs for every character. Again, the more data you have, the more you should be able to theorize
It just makes it worse that people are basing their tier lists off of both speculation and results. I could understand basing them on either one or the other (though basing them off of results will give you a very bad tier list in which some characters' spots are inflated more than they should be by exceptional players), but inconsistent measuring (i.e. using theory when and only when considering the low tiers) creates an inconsistent tier list.

At the same time, relying too much on theory is really bad if the theory is bad. Using just theory, you could argue Yoshi as the second or third best character in the game because his parry is stupid powerful at a "perfect", theoretical level of play. You could argue Falcon to be exceptional because of how hard he can punish rolls if he were playing beyond human limitations for reaction time.

But since human limitation varies so wildly from person to person (and I don't think it would be fair to consider elite reaction time and coordination a good reference for measure), it's very hard to find a good upper limit of human ability. Therefore, we have to go on knowledge of what we know works. We have theoretical matchup knowledge, and we have a ton of footage of stuff that actually works and that most people can do reliably.

Ultimately, we end up looking at results to help us make our tier list based on theory even though we sought out to not use results since it wouldn't be fair to the low tiers. And since the low tiers don't have as much footage, we don't have as much to work with, and we therefore need to do some more mental gymnastics. However, inconsistent measuring creates an inconsistent tier list, so all the work you put in was, at the end of the day, completely meaningless.

So I think we shouldn't have a tier list at all.
 

Carl the Oatswag

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
30
Location
Ithaca New York
s tier
1 fox
2 falco
3 sheik
4 marth
5 peach
6 puff
7 c. falcon
8. ice climbers

a tier
9 pikachu
10 ganon
11 doc
12 luigi
13 samus
14 mario
15 yoshi

b tier
16 y link
17 link
18 DK
19 roy
20 G&W
21 zelda
22 mewtwo
23 kirby

f tier
24 bowser
25 ness
26 pichu
 

SPoitter

Interior Crocodile Aligator
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
111
so getting back to the topic at hand
View attachment 77558
so before you start hating me for this let me explain
Link Marth and Pichu
Link: i put him a bit lower than what other people think because well... i just think that Y.link is better than mario and dk but i think link is worse than them
Marth: i don't think i have to say this but marth seems to get more results than falco
Pichu: putting him above game is debeatable but i think it works because at least pichu can L-cancel ALL of his air attacks
any dissagreements?
Bowser: Higher than Mewtwo Zelda and Kirby
l0l
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik (lower than top level, sheik climbs)

Next tier

5th in theory is jiggs, 5th IRL is peach.

Next tier

7. Pikachu
8. Falcon
9. Climbers
10. Samus

Next tier

11. Doc
12. Yoshi
13. Luigi
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario or YL
17. Link

The rest I may have opinions on that I can back up, but I'm not really concerned. And honestly I could break up the mid tier as well, but I'd only put doc and yoshi (possibly even yoshi above doc) in a tier that designated then slightly better than the other mid tiers. Reliability of doc's punish game considered.
 
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Defile

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
91
Lets be honest, this thread is a joke. Almost everyone here (myself included) is just a documentary kid. And most of the people posting tier lists here have little to no actual tourney experiences and joined SmashBoards about one year ago. I'm just waiting for Sveet to release the official tier list so that I can know what actually good players think.
 
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MudkipUniverse

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
770
Location
Seatac, WA
NNID
VolcanicAsh
Lets be honest, this thread is a joke. Almost everyone here (myself included) is just a documentary kid. And most of the people posting tier lists here have little to no actual tourney experiences and joined SmashBoards about one year ago. I'm just waiting for Sveet to release the official tier list so that I can know what actually good players think.
so you're waiting for sveet to release this "official tier list." He's only releasing a community list AFAIK. this would mean you're saying everyone has no tournament experience and then going on to call them good players. wtf
 

Defile

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
91
so you're waiting for sveet to release this "official tier list." He's only releasing a community list AFAIK. this would mean you're saying everyone has no tournament experience and then going on to call them good players. wtf
I said that most, not all of the people on this thread have no idea what they're talking about. In addition to a community tier list made up of opinions from anyone with a SB account Sveet is trying to compile an official tier list based on the individual lists made by ranked players who have worthwhile opinions. He said that it is taking time to get an adequate number of ranked players' opinions before he can publish an official tier list on this thread, which is why I keep checking it only to be disappointed by posts like yours.
 
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red hot roy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
81
Location
ontario canada
3DS FC
5473-0450-7276
i feel that roy could at most be a B tier character if there were more top players using Roy out there, never saw him as a C tier or lower, probably because i've used roy quite a bit.
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
I said that most, not all of the people on this thread have no idea what they're talking about. In addition to a community tier list made up of opinions from anyone with a SB account Sveet is trying to compile an official tier list based on the individual lists made by ranked players who have worthwhile opinions. He said that it is taking time to get an adequate number of ranked players' opinions before he can publish an official tier list on this thread, which is why I keep checking it only to be disappointed by posts like yours.
I can save you a lot of noob condescending temper tantrum rants and tell you what it's going to be already.

The changes aren't that significant aside from Yoshi, and the new order won't affect anything really.
 

SPoitter

Interior Crocodile Aligator
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
111
Lets be honest, this thread is a joke. Almost everyone here (myself included) is just a documentary kid. And most of the people posting tier lists here have little to no actual tourney experiences and joined SmashBoards about one year ago. I'm just waiting for Sveet to release the official tier list so that I can know what actually good players think.
Isn't this the point of a community tier list
 

Curleh_Mustache

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
30
Top Tier
1. Falco
2. Fox.
3. Marth
4. Shiek
5. Peach
6. Jigglypuff
High Tier
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
High Middle Tier
10. Dr. Mario
11. Luigi
12. Pikachu
13. Yoshi
14. Mario
15. Ganondorf
Middle Tier
16. Young Link
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Mewtwo
Low Tier
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Roy
22. Ness
Bottom Tier
23. Zelda
24. Pichu
25. Kirby
26. Bowser
 
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pershona

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
337
Location
Oulu, Finland
i feel that roy could at most be a B tier character if there were more top players using Roy out there, never saw him as a C tier or lower, probably because i've used roy quite a bit.
Actually there have been some top players like PPU (and m2k sometimes uses him but only really vs lower level players) that tried using him but it didn't go well. There's also players like Sethlon who devoted themselves to playing the character but never managed to get any big results with him due to the character being so limited.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
so you're waiting for sveet to release this "official tier list." He's only releasing a community list AFAIK. this would mean you're saying everyone has no tournament experience and then going on to call them good players. wtf
There will be an official list. It hasn't been announced how the panel will be determined, as the criteria listed in the OP will not be appropriate.

I have finally begun working on completing this. I hope to have it released before Kings of the North 4!!
 

Effay

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
1,606
Location
PA
Switch FC
0527-9775-5784
Mine is:
:foxmelee:
:sheikmelee:
:marthmelee:
:falcomelee:
:jigglypuffmelee:
:falconmelee:
:peachmelee:
:icsmelee:
:samusmelee:
:drmario:
:pikachumelee:
:luigimelee:
:yoshimelee:
:ganondorfmelee:
:younglinkmelee:
:linkmelee:
:mariomelee:
:dkmelee:
:gawmelee:
:roymelee: (i luv roy in melee so i have him higher)
:mewtwomelee:
:zeldamelee:
:nessmelee:
:pichumelee:
:bowsermelee:
:kirbymelee:

If I forgot anyone, then I probably either didn't care or I just forgot.
Don't like this post, because then I see a notification and get excited.
 
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Puphmaster

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Midwest
1. Fox (I hate saying this as a puff main but it's true)
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Jigglypuff
6. Captain Falcon
7. Ice climbers
8. Peach
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Mario
12. Doctor Mario
13. Luigi
14. Yoshi
15. Ganondorf
16. Young Link
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Mr. Game and Watch
20. Ness
21. Pichu
22. Zelda
23. Roy
24. Mewtwo
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

My low tiers are very highly opinionated due to me having a pichu for low tier tournaments.
 

Curleh_Mustache

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
30
1. Fox (I hate saying this as a puff main but it's true)
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Jigglypuff
6. Captain Falcon
7. Ice climbers
8. Peach
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Mario
12. Doctor Mario
13. Luigi
14. Yoshi
15. Ganondorf
16. Young Link
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Mr. Game and Watch
20. Ness
21. Pichu
22. Zelda
23. Roy
24. Mewtwo
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

My low tiers are very highly opinionated due to me having a pichu for low tier tournaments.
There is no way Mewtwo and Roy are worse than Pichu
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
There is no way Mewtwo and Roy are worse than Pichu
It's definitely possible, and even if both are better than Pichu....it's would be by a very very small amount not worthy of a reaction.

In fact all three might as well be on the same level of viability, it's just that TAJ has legitimate results with Mewtwo. Roy and Pichu are still largely unproven against top players.
 
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SPoitter

Interior Crocodile Aligator
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
111
Mine is:
:foxmelee:
:sheikmelee:
:marthmelee:
:falcomelee:
:jigglypuffmelee:
:falconmelee:
:peachmelee:
:icsmelee:
:samusmelee:
:drmario:
:pikachumelee:
:luigimelee:
:yoshimelee:
:ganondorfmelee:
:younglinkmelee:
:linkmelee:
:mariomelee:
:dkmelee:
:gawmelee:
:roymelee: (i luv roy in melee so i have him higher)
:mewtwomelee:
:gawmelee:
:zeldamelee:
:nessmelee:
:pichumelee:
:bowsermelee:
:kirbymelee:

If I forgot anyone, then I probably either didn't care or I just forgot.
Don't like this post, because then I see a notification and get excited.
you have 2 gaymanwatches
 

Puphmaster

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Midwest
the one reason I think that falcon can't be higher than peach is because he gets ****ed by fox, falco, and sheik.
Falcon is actually highly used in this meta and if you are a good player falcon beats peach 6-4 so thats why i put him higher and peach is wrecked by fox worse than falcon.
 

Effay

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 30, 2014
Messages
1,606
Location
PA
Switch FC
0527-9775-5784
you have 2 gaymanwatches
thank you for pointing that out
There is no way Mewtwo and Roy are worse than Pichu
I can believe he's better than Roy. He's fast and actually has a good recovery. Maybe not Mewtwo though.
No matter what I say about Mewtwo, I don't know quit where in the low tier area I would rank him.
 
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MudkipUniverse

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
770
Location
Seatac, WA
NNID
VolcanicAsh
Falcon is actually highly used in this meta and if you are a good player falcon beats peach 6-4 so thats why i put him higher and peach is wrecked by fox worse than falcon.
Up until about a month ago I have thought falcon is the worse character. He probably does beat peach, but there is no way he does better against fox. Peach doesn't get bopped by Falco too, and actually goes even (or maybe wins).
 

MasterExocuter

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
63
Location
TX
i feel that roy could at most be a B tier character if there were more top players using Roy out there, never saw him as a C tier or lower, probably because i've used roy quite a bit.
Here's why roy is bottom:
he gets combo'd by everyone
he gets punished whenever he tries to go in
Ass-level recovery
falls like a rock(good for shffl but bad for anything else)
gets outspaced by pretty much everyone else
tall/lanky hitbox
sourspot at tip/end of blade so no spacing
no good matchups except for VS. fox but who cares just play Marth or Falco
**** neutral cos no projectile
bad edgeguarding b/c could fastfall and die
smaller counter window

there are tons more reasons but since not many people care about Roy (myself included), I don't have a complete list. He really isn't qualified to be a 'B' or even 'C' tier, because he lacks tools to do much of anything.
 
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MudkipUniverse

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
770
Location
Seatac, WA
NNID
VolcanicAsh
People don't realize how terrible roy actually is. The reasons have already been listed so I don't need to go over them.
In the future I actually think Ness will become WORSE and probably be like 2nd or 3rd worst.
 

Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
Yea Roy is pretty bad, mostly because all of his aerials are bottom tier in power and versatility. They are at least fast, but not until high percents are they anywhere close to being usable. Also his weight and Fall Speed lead to near endless combo possibilities on him.

There are a few interesting things that people SHOULDN'T forget though -

1 - His Neutral B Flare Blade fully uncharged is safe at low percents and has impressive knockback at higher percents. It also has insane range and coverage and only moderate end lag, it's even more usable in the air and has no sourspot.

2 - His DED is better than Marth's as a neutral tool and is quite usable since it's fast and hard to predict when used right

3 - His speed, DD, WD, grab range, and edgeguarding are still insanely effective against almost all of the cast despite his other flaws.

4 - Everyone knows about the strength of his F-smash, but most people don't realize that it's sweetspot is actually a lot more generous than his other moves (same goes for Nair).
 
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red hot roy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 12, 2015
Messages
81
Location
ontario canada
3DS FC
5473-0450-7276
Yea Roy is pretty bad, mostly because all of his aerials are bottom tier in power and versatility. They are at least fast, but not until high percents are they anywhere close to being usable. Also his weight and Fall Speed lead to near endless combo possibilities on him.

There are a few interesting things that people SHOULDN'T forget though -

1 - His Neutral B Flare Blade fully uncharged is safe at low percents and has impressive knockback at higher percents. It also has insane range and coverage and only 11 frames of end lag, it's even more usable in the air and has no sourspot.

2 - His DED is better than Marth's as a neutral tool and is quite usable since it's fast and hard to predict when used right

3 - His speed, DD, WD, grab range, and edgeguarding are still insanely effective against almost all of the cast despite his other flaws.

4 - Everyone knows about the strength of his F-smash, but most people don't realize that it's sweetspot is actually a lot more generous than his other moves (same goes for Nair).
^
 

1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
Yea Roy is pretty bad, mostly because all of his aerials are bottom tier in power and versatility. They are at least fast, but not until high percents are they anywhere close to being usable. Also his weight and Fall Speed lead to near endless combo possibilities on him.

There are a few interesting things that people SHOULDN'T forget though -

1 - His Neutral B Flare Blade fully uncharged is safe at low percents and has impressive knockback at higher percents. It also has insane range and coverage and only 11 frames of end lag, it's even more usable in the air and has no sourspot.
This is pretty wrong. Uncharged flare blade does a whopping 6% meaning it only does 4 frames of shieldstun. If you somehow did hit someone's shield on the last active hitbox frame, you'd be at -7. So with "optimal" timing, you'd still lose to shield grab without good spacing (which can be rather unforgiving since Roy leans his head so far forward).

However, it is far more likely you'd hit with an earlier hitbox and we could be talking about -10 or -9 on shield in most scenarios. Thats already pretty awful before we consider the 16 frames of start up. Dtilt remains Roy's only legit option on shield (maybe spaced side-b since its easy to do from DD)

It also isn't even that strong. Sure, it is his strongest "aerial" at high percent, but there wasn't much competition to begin with and "impressive" is certainly not the word I'd use to describe it. At 100% it still has less knockback than something like Mario's bair or Fox's nair (neither of which are known for their great kill power). And no, this doesn't change at higher percent. In fact, the gap between their respective knockback distances only continues to grow.

2 - His DED is better than Marth's as a neutral tool and is quite usable since it's fast and hard to predict when used right
This is pretty true. Its still pretty bad on shield up close and can be susceptible to SDI but its definitely an interesting tool.

3 - His speed, DD, WD, grab range, and edgeguarding are still insanely effective against almost all of the cast despite his other flaws.
I would argue that good movement is pointless if you have nothing to reinforce it. Marth, Fox, and Falcon have intimidating movement because their openings are meaningful. The THREAT of them doing something out their movement forces your hand and makes you play intricate games of preemptive strikes, re-positioning, baits, etc.

When you are facing Roy, is his grab really the same kind of looming threat that most other characters possess? Unless you are playing Fox, Falco, or maybe Falcon, it really shouldn't. He'll get his wimpy 5% throw into a measly 6-9% aerial if you DI'd badly or got read. Dtilt is in the same boat. Its knockback is too high to net more than 1 follow up if you aren't a fastfaller. On the whole, he has some of the worst options vs. shield in the game against non-fastfallers in addition to being extremely susceptible to camping and crouch cancelling. I see no reason to respect Roy when he is dash dancing. You might as well just play a 50/50 by running up with your char's best opener or running up and shielding. Considering his punish game vs. most of the cast, the odds of him winning these exchanges enough to take 4 stocks before you do is probably astronomical.

As for edge guarding, I think you are only looking at it from a vs. fastfaller viewpoint. Roy has almost no offstage edgeguard potential and utterly garbage options vs. high recoveries since his aerials are so bad. He can cover ledge with fsmash or tipper dsmash, but those are super hard commitments. How is he supposed to edgeguard Peach, Samus, the Mario Bros, Ice Climbers, Sheik, etc?
 
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Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
1MachGO you basically just wrote all that for nothing. I've been playing this game for so long and used to play Roy quite a bit, all of that is known.

Plus I'm almost 100% sure these things about Roy have been discussed already in this thread and the 2013 thread. However a lot of what you say is based on assumptions, bad spacing, and worst case scenarios. I know you're more of a theory-crafter than a practical player, so it's hard to take anything you say as anything more. Roy is where he belongs (he could probably be a bit lower), but nothing you have said changed anyone minds on his spot. I was simply stating somethings that noobs who have never played him often don't know or forget when they trash on him.

Flare Blade is indeed useful; for those above you, when spaced right in neutral (retreating flare blade can be a good mix up), and especially on edge guarding. it seems you forget how obviously effective it is on edge guarding against most of the cast since you completely don't mention it (it hits below stage edge as well as the massive arc above and in front). This leads me to believe you don't have much actual experience at all with the character.


And c'mon throw damage was not the point, it can lead to tech chases, favorable stage position, and edge guard set ups. His grab range is a threat since it makes most unsafe shield pressure or bad spacing highly punishable.
 
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MudkipUniverse

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 4, 2013
Messages
770
Location
Seatac, WA
NNID
VolcanicAsh
I guess all roy players aren't even that good at melee because none of them have ever done anything notable in the past 10 years

*no sarcasm
 
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Plunder

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 12, 2015
Messages
862
Location
Port Royal
NNID
1337-7734-8008
I guess all roy players aren't even that good at melee because none of them have ever done anything notable in the past 10 years

*no sarcasm
Well they don't all suck, Sethlon and Neo are very intelligent players. Roy just has massive issues still, the few pros I pointed out were just for those I see in this thread talking about how "Roy is unusable, bottom tier or that Ness or Bowser whould be above him..." It's clear they don't understand what makes 1 character more viable than another.

So yea IMO Roy is definitely where he belongs, I'd have the same response to those that try and put him in mid tier or higher up with the Links. That's just as crazy.
 
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1MachGO

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
807
1MachGO you basically just wrote all that for nothing. I've been playing this game for so long and used to play Roy quite a bit, all of that is known.

Plus I'm almost 100% sure these things about Roy have been discussed already in this thread and the 2013 thread. However a lot of what you say is based on assumptions, bad spacing, and worst case scenarios. I know you're more of a theory-crafter than a practical player, so it's hard to take anything you say as anything more. Roy is where he belongs (he could probably be a bit lower), but nothing you have said changed anyone minds on his spot. I was simply stating somethings that noobs who have never played him often don't know or forget when they trash on him.

Flare Blade is indeed useful; for those above you, when spaced right in neutral (retreating flare blade can be a good mix up), and especially on edge guarding. it seems you forget how obviously effective it is on edge guarding against most of the cast since you completely don't mention it (it hits below stage edge as well as the massive arc above and in front). This leads me to believe you don't have much actual experience at all with the character.


And c'mon throw damage was not the point, it can lead to tech chases, favorable stage position, and edge guard set ups. His grab range is a threat since it makes most unsafe shield pressure or bad spacing highly punishable.
If all of it is "known" then why would you say things like Roy's neutral b has impressive knockback or that he is good at edgeguarding against almost all of the cast?

And calling me a "theory-crafter" is a not a legitimate way to dissuade my argument because I used actual facts. You can say that you've "played Roy" as much as you want, but its honestly just pure hearsay and you have nothing to back it up with.

I also find it laughable that you accuse me of primarily considering the worst case scenario when I immediately considered the best case scenario going into my argument about flare blade vs. shield. Sorry if I don't think spacing a 16 frame move and landing its very last possible active hitbox on shield is a realistic scenario. Apparently you think it is. Maybe you ought to reconsider who is over-theorizing.

In regards to edgeguards, flare blade is good vs. fastfallers; particularly when Fox/Falcon are recovering in a slow, parabolic trajectory and their only options are going for the ledge or barely landing on stage; allowing you to charge it. However, when I originally addressed the topic, I was quick to exclude fastfallers because the statement I took issue with was you claiming Roy is good at edgeguarding almost ALL of the cast. If that wasn't clear, sorry, but I never saw flare blade as a ubiquitous edge guarding tool because it lacks the downward range of fsmash, the reach of dsmash, and the reflexive application of either due to its lack of speed and uncharged power. Charging remedies its lack of power, but its too heavy of a commitment and shows your hand to the opponent; they'll just sweetspot or maneuver around it if they aren't a fastfaller.

So the issue remains. Roy has severe holes in his ability to cover high recoveries or edgeguard offstage. You offered no explanation as to how someone like Roy edgeguards Peach, Samus, etc. or how he can cover the ledge with a non-hard commit. Regardless of the fact that you misunderstood my omission of flare blade, you never answered these issues.
 

Plunder

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I'll start with a mistake you've made 3 times now to end that waste of time, you will understand why conversing with you would be futile after this -

I never once mentioned flare blade on shield. I specifically mention low percent and higher percents, if you're intelligent you would know I could only be referring to actual hits.....since you know..... when you are shielding percentage doesn't matter, so I'm still unsure why you are writing novels about this misguided rebuttal against a point I never made.

Go look at the frame data on Samus and Falcon U-tilt.....I'm guessing your theory-crafting brain wouldn't understand that high level players actually use those moves in tournament matches. Less range on both, lass active time, less disjoint, similar KB at low and high percents. The only real difference is that they do more damage and so barely have more shield stun, but due to the lesser range and disjoint they really are about equivalent in viability in how they are utilized. Roy's Flare blade serves almost the same purposes except it can actually be used in the air, reversed, and can be charged and hit sweet spots better. Coming from above? Jump flare blade, and as a mix up you can charge it a bit to throw off timing. I'm seen M2K effectively use it on floaties able to recover high as well as Sethlon and Pyro.
 
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