Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[TDK]

falcon and peach switch

Explanation please. Peach is top 5. She's a solo viable character that wins majors. Falcon doesn't win majors.

 

[gmBottles]

For a bit I thought that Ness was underrated, but now I def think he's bottom 3

My buddy is a really good Ness player. From what he's told me about his Ness struggles, it is definitely a bottom tier character. When you devote a lot of time to a low tier, you notice all of their flaws. Same thing happened with me and Bowser. At first I thought I could be the one to discover something new and change him, but he really just sucks loool

@Glitched Ness is super relevant, give some input

 

[D4sh_D4nc3]

Super Majors

1. Fox
2. Falco/Marth
3. Falco/Marth

APEX Winners

4. Sheik
5. ICs
6. C. Falcon

Big Locals (thats a thing)

7. Jigglypuff

8. Peach

Xanadu

9. Pikachu

10. Luigi

11. Samus

12. Mario

13. Yoshi

Small Locals

14. Ganondorf/Doc

15. Yung Lonk

16. Expand Dong

17. Lonk

18. Ness

Friendlies

19. Zelda

20. MEWTWOOOO!!!!!

21. Pichu

22. Roy

23. Kirby

24. G&W

25. Bowser

26. Roy (inb4 a skilled roy can beat any fox)

 

[pichuplayer]

Super Majors

1. Fox
2. Falco/Marth
3. Falco/Marth

APEX Winners

4. Sheik
5. ICs
6. C. Falcon

Big Locals (thats a thing)

7. Jigglypuff

8. Peach

Xanadu

9. Pikachu

10. Luigi

11. Samus

12. Mario

13. Yoshi

Small Locals

14. Ganondorf/Doc

15. Yung Lonk

16. Expand Dong

17. Lonk

18. Ness

Friendlies

19. Zelda

20. MEWTWOOOO!!!!!

21. Pichu

22. Roy

23. Kirby

24. G&W

25. Bowser

26. Roy (inb4 a skilled roy can beat any fox)

G&W that low? no man put Kirby there then its good

 

[D4sh_D4nc3]

G&W that low? no man put Kirby there then its good

Game and Watch has no one playing him, atleast Kirby has Triple R.

 

[pichuplayer]

Game and Watch has no one playing him, atleast Kirby has Triple R.

still Kirby sucks

 

[Plunder]

Game and Watch has no one playing him, atleast Kirby has Triple R.

Ummmm....

Qerb and Phenom

Both I'm sure national players will say their G&Ws are better than Triple R's Kirby

Earlier in this thread you can read up on the obvious reasons G&W is considered better than Kirby.

 

[D4sh_D4nc3]

Ummmm....

Qerb and Phenom

Both I'm sure national players will say their G&Ws are better than Triple R's Kirby

Earlier in this thread you can read up on the obvious reasons G&W is considered better than Kirby.

Well after all

This is all just opinions

Kappa.

 

[EddyBearr]

Definitely don't see Phenom being better than Triple R. With that said, QERB is likely better, and G&W is definitely better than Kirby.

 

[D4sh_D4nc3]

Super Majors

1. Fox
2. Falco/Marth
3. Falco/Marth

APEX Winners

4. Sheik
5. ICs
6. C. Falcon

Big Locals (thats a thing)

7. Jigglypuff

8. Peach

Xanadu

9. Pikachu

10. Luigi

11. Samus

12. Mario

13. Yoshi

Small Locals

14. Ganondorf/Doc

15. Yung Lonk

16. Expand Dong

17. Lonk

18. Ness

These are ok

19. Zelda

20. MEWTWOOOO!!!!!

21. Pichu

22. G&W

If I see you ****ing playing these characters.

22. (this was a mistake, cus i put falco and marth on the same stuff)

23. Roy

24. Kirby

24. Bowser

25. Roy

 

[TDK]

Super Majors

1. Fox
2. Falco/Marth
3. Falco/Marth

APEX Winners

4. Sheik
5. ICs
6. C. Falcon

Big Locals (thats a thing)

7. Jigglypuff

8. Peach

Xanadu

9. Pikachu

10. Luigi

11. Samus

12. Mario

13. Yoshi

Small Locals

14. Ganondorf/Doc

15. Yung Lonk

16. Expand Dong

17. Lonk

18. Ness

These are ok

19. Zelda

20. MEWTWOOOO!!!!!

21. Pichu

22. G&W

If I see you ****ing playing these characters.

22. (this was a mistake, cus i put falco and marth on the same stuff)

23. Roy

24. Kirby

24. Bowser

25. Roy

If you're just going to put memes [Lonk, Dong] into your list I'm not going to take you seriously. That being said, what on earth are Falcon and ICs doing above peach and Jigglypuff? Based on the names of your tiers, then Peach should be in one of the top 2 brackets. [Armada this year won EVO, came second at APEX, won CEO, won Big house, etc. with Peach. Falcon hasn't gotten into top 8 at any of those events.]

On a different topic, results seem to indicate a small surge in the Ice Climbers' placings, with nothing to compensate from Falcon. Would it be feasible to put ICs above Falcon?

 

[TDK]

Sorry for double posting, but here's my list.

S Tier:





A+ Tier:




A Tier:




A- Tier:




B+ Tier:




B Tier:



B- Tier:



C+ Tier:





C tier:

 

[Dire Creeper]

Game and Watch has no one playing him, atleast Kirby has Triple R.

Lack of representation ≠ a character doesn't have potential. No one very noteworthy currently plays Doc (except probably SmashMac) yet Shroomed placed very high with him back in the days.

 

[pichuplayer]

Sorry for double posting, but here's my list.

S Tier:





A+ Tier:




A Tier:




A- Tier:




B+ Tier:




B Tier:



B- Tier:



C+ Tier:





C tier:

put Yoshi above mario Gannon and Maybe Doc then its good

 

[Plunder]

Definitely don't see Phenom being better than Triple R. With that said, QERB is likely better, and G&W is definitely better than Kirby.

read....
Phenom's G&W is better than Triple R's Kirby

Even if for some misguided reason you actually think someone that plays in the midwest is better than someone that plays in NorCal/SoCal AND uses a better character.....it's sort of silly to make such a bold statement as if you know this as fact (clearly you don't know what it's like to play outside your easy region)

 

[Barbeque]

Explanation please. Peach is top 5. She's a solo viable character that wins majors. Falcon doesn't win majors.

falcon is higher than peach because some S tiers above peach have been considered not in her favour, whereas with falcon its quite close to 50/50 with some (marth). and there are many falcons, and many that do good. armada has said there's peach matchups within S tiers that are definitely not in peaches favour.

 

[EddyBearr]

read....
Phenom's G&W is better than Triple R's Kirby

Even if for some misguided reason you actually think someone that plays in the midwest is better than someone that plays in NorCal/SoCal AND uses a better character.....it's sort of silly to make such a bold statement as if you know this as fact (clearly you don't know what it's like to play outside your easy region)

I think that both Triple R is better than Phenom and that Triple R is better at Kirby than Phenom is at G&W. That's based solely on VODs of the players involved.

I have playing experience in both MN and AZ -- MN is somewhat worse than AZ mostly because we lack an "Axe-tier player", and because our "#1" is around their "#2 & #3" (Medz / Tai). Their #4-#15 and our #2-#15 are pretty comparable. Their #4-#15, of course, sporadically attend SoCal tournaments and pose threats in bracket.

MN's #1 (Slayer) has winning records against: NorCal (Toph x2, HMW, Alan, Frootloop*), & Android, making him unarguably "pretty good". *Frootloop is complicated due to past WI*. Slayer would likely be in the top 8 in NorCal, and other MN players can/do take sets off Slayer.
As a team, Slayer / Triple R beat Toph/G$ and Chillin/Prof, and in no way was Slayer carrying.

Two things might do you well, Plunder,:
1. Do not mistake isolation for being an "easy region". Even less-isolated regions like WI or Chicago will acknowledge that MN is disproportionately-good for being so isolated. It is beyond reasonable to think an MN top 5 is better than a SoCal "top 50".
2. Try actually attending tournaments (no smashboards history, no results w/ google) before making judgments on how good a region or player might be. Over-posting your merit on a tier list thread is not an indicator of having any clue what you're talking about.

 

[jigglesthepuff]

One day, Ness will rise out of bottom tier, right?
...right?

On a more serious note, I think Ness has quite a bit of untapped potential, but he will probably never rise out of low, or even bottom tier because so many characters can just wipe the floor with him.

 

[TidalWave]

Super Majors

1. Fox
2. Falco/Marth
3. Falco/Marth

APEX Winners

4. Sheik
5. ICs
6. C. Falcon

Big Locals (thats a thing)

7. Jigglypuff

8. Peach

Xanadu

9. Pikachu

10. Luigi

11. Samus

12. Mario

13. Yoshi

Small Locals

14. Ganondorf/Doc

15. Yung Lonk

16. Expand Dong

17. Lonk

18. Ness

These are ok

19. Zelda

20. MEWTWOOOO!!!!!

21. Pichu

22. G&W

If I see you ****ing playing these characters.

22. (this was a mistake, cus i put falco and marth on the same stuff)

23. Roy

24. Kirby

24. Bowser

25. Roy

I have a question about #16.

Do you have experience in expanding dongs??

 

[Mothcan]

S Tier







A Tier

(Would have been Pikachu, but TBH5)




B Tier






C Tier






F Tier

 

[Dire Creeper]

S Tier







A Tier

(Would have been Pikachu, but TBH5)




B Tier






C Tier






F Tier

I'm all about Luigi, but putting him at #8 and above Peach and Falcon is far-fetched. Please explain why they're that low and why ICs is #6.

Other than that, this list is pretty solid.

 

[EddyBearr]

In an effort to compile a majors'-results-based tier list that is weighted towards recency, tournament size, and tournament placement, I took the following tournaments with the following designations:
Major: EVO 2013º, Apex 2014, MLG 2014, TBH4, CEO 2015, and Paragon L.A. 2015;
Super Major: EVO 2014, Apex 2015, EVO 2015, TBH5
ºEVO2013 is the only tournament before 2014 I included, but it has very little weight. It's still a gargantuan tournament.

And added up the "tournament scores" of each tournament with the following multipliers;
Top 32: 1x ; Top 8: 2x ; Top 4: 4x ; Top 2: 8x ; Top 1: 16x
2015 Tournament: 2x ; Super-Major: 2x
Multiple mains: each character counts as a full main ;;; Matchup-specific secondaries: counts as 0.5

There's the equivalent of 22 series of top 32's in this list, so I will provide a "divided by 22 list" as well as the bigger list.
--This list is as if a tournament like TBH4 happened 22 times.

Placings: Top 32 / 8 / 4 / 2 / 1
Italics indicates use as a matchup-specific secondary

Fox: 241 / 58 / 36 / 22 / 13
Falco: 83 / 54 / 40 / 14 / 14
Marth: 68 / 21 / 17 / 9 / 5
Sheik: 107 / 34 / 13 / 8 / 0
Peachº: 56 / 20 / 19 / 15 / 8
Jigglypuff: 30 / 22 / 13 / 10 / 0
Ice Climbers: 44 / 9 / 1 / 1 / 0
Captain Falcon: 36 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0
Samus: 41 / 6 / 4 / 0 / 0
Pikachu: 27 / 9 / 0 / 0 / 0
Yoshi: 12 / 4 / 0 / 0 / 0
Luigi: 25 / 4 / 0 / 0 / 0
Dr. Mario: 3 / 1 / 0 / 0 / 0
Ganondorf: 7 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0
Young Link*: 2 / 1.5 / 0.5 / 0.5 / 0
Mewtwoⁿ: 1 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ºPeach was used by M2K as an IC's CP. Armada's fox artificially inflates Peach's top 4/2/1's.
*Y.Link is a perma-secondary
ⁿMewtwo Taj, EVO 2013 (Marth player).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Character placings scores:

Fox: 885
Falco: 687
Marth: 330
Sheik: 291
Peach: 420
Jigglypuff: 206
Ice Climbers: 74
Captain Falcon: 36
Samus: 69
Pikachu: 45
Yoshi: 20
Luigi: 33
Dr. Mario: 5
Ganondorf: 7
Young Link: 11
Mewtwo: 1
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Divided by 22, brought to 2 decimals..

Fox: 40.23
Falco: 31.23
Marth: 15.00
Sheik: 13.23
Peach: 19.09
Jigglypuff: 9.36
Ice Climbers: 3.36
Captain Falcon: 1.64
Samus: 3.14
Pikachu: 2.05
Yoshi: 0.91
Luigi: 1.50
Dr. Mario: 0.23
Ganondorf: 0.32
Young Link: 0.5
Mewtwo: 0.05
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's each character's top placement in majors / super majors since EVO 2013:
*Majors includes Supers, Supers don't include Majors:
Majors / Supers

Fox: 1st / 1st
Falco: 1st / 1st
Marth: 1st / 1st
Sheik: 2nd / 2nd
Peach: 1st / 1st
Jigglypuff: 2nd / 2nd
Ice Climbers: 2nd / 7th
Captain Falcon: 9th / 9th
Samus: 4th / 4th
Pikachu: 5th / 5th
Yoshi: 5th / 5th
Luigi: 7th / 7th
Dr. Mario: 7th / 49th
Ganondorf: 25th / 25th
Young Link: 2nd / 5th
Mewtwo: 13th / n/a
Link: 33rd / 33rd
Donkey Kong: 33rd / 33rd
Mario: 49th / 49th
Mr. G&W: 61st / 81st
Zelda: 65th / 97th
Kirby: 65th / 97th
Ness: 97th / 97th
Roy: 209th / 209th
Bowser: 33rd / n/a
Pichu: n/a / n/a

If we take into consideration the unique circumstances of Peach, Young Link, Mewtwo, and Bowser, then I would personally make a results-based tier list look like what I have posted below. Note that it does not take into consideration that Mew2King has probably used Roy to be guaranteed "97th" or higher before in tournament (though if I had searched found it, I would have applied it to the list).

Fox > Falco
Marth > Sheik > Peach
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers > Samus > Pikachu > Yoshi > Luigi
Captain Falcon
Dr. Mario > Ganondorf > Young Link
Mewtwo > Link = Donkey Kong > Mario
Bowser
G&W > Zelda = Kirby > Ness
Roy
Pichu

Less-Detailed graphic:

I personally think this tier list is kind-of absurd. My methodology was imperfect, and people will likely disagree with how I took into consideration unique circumstances, but this partially shows the flaws of a 100%-results-based tier list.

 

[PineTree2.0]

Was the tier list released, or are we still waiting?

 

[Dire Creeper]

Was the tier list released, or are we still waiting?

Sveet says he's still working on it and that he hopes to have it done before Kings of the North 4.

 

[MurphyPrime]

S Tier







A Tier

(Would have been Pikachu, but TBH5)




B Tier






C Tier






F Tier

I can maybe see Luigi above Falcon (but I'm ultra biased), but above peach? How does Luigi better deal with the top tiers than Peach? Like against Fox, Falcon, Falco, and maybe IC's, Luigi can manage. But Sheik and Marth and Puff are pretty nasty. Peach at least has a decent projectiles so some of the top tiers have to approach. I honestly would have Peach, Luigi, Falcon, Samus, Pikachu as my A. Also why the DK love? Not disagreeing, just curious how he is better than Links and Mewtwo? Was it Westballz play? Everything else I can agree on (maybe not Roy, but doesn't really matter).

 

[PineTree2.0]

I just want Yoshi to get bumped up. He deserves far better than what he has right now.

 

[MurphyPrime]

I agree, but as of right now how can he? Same with a character like Doc. No one mains him of note, so how can his meta improve. We just have to wait for Amsa to show up to tourneys or someone new comes up. Otherwise Yoshi won't change.

 

[Dire Creeper]

Well I revised my list once again, so here it is:

 

[ChrisWithAk]

S TIER




A TIER





B TIER




C TIER


D TIER





F TIER

 

[TDK]

A TIER

I'm getting really sick of people thinking Falcon is better than Peach...

This makes no sense.

Also, your tier list is missing Mario entirely.

 

[MurphyPrime]

It's funny cause he plays Mario in two of the other games. You'd think he would not forget Mario. I think Peach is better, but there isn't a huge amount of evidence. Like Armada's just plain good. Other Falcons place higher most of the time than MacD. It's a bit hard to tell.

 

[Plunder]

It's funny cause he plays Mario in two of the other games. You'd think he would not forget Mario. I think Peach is better, but there isn't a huge amount of evidence. Like Armada's just plain good. Other Falcons place higher most of the time than MacD. It's a bit hard to tell.

This thread is providing me substantial comedic relief

 

[TDK]

It's funny cause he plays Mario in two of the other games. You'd think he would not forget Mario. I think Peach is better, but there isn't a huge amount of evidence. Like Armada's just plain good. Other Falcons place higher most of the time than MacD. It's a bit hard to tell.

Even outside of placements, Peach is a better character. Falcon's approaches and neutral are inconsistent and Commital, and his recovery is very easy to edgeguard. On top of that, Peach has better matchups with Fox, Falco, the Ice Climbers, and Pikachu, where the only edge [top tier] Falcon has on Peach is a better matchup vs. Marth.

 

[TDK]

falcon is higher than peach because some S tiers above peach have been considered not in her favour, whereas with falcon its quite close to 50/50 with some (marth). and there are many falcons, and many that do good. armada has said there's peach matchups within S tiers that are definitely not in peaches favour.

Falcon has a -2 matchup against both Space Animals.
Peach goes even with Falco and only has a -1 matchup with Fox.

What matchups does Armada say aren't in Peach's favour?

 

[ChrisWithAk]

The thinking for falcon is his matchup spread with the s tier. Where he does well against Marth and Falco isnt as bad as some Falcons want to complain that it is.

Mario is just an oversight and ironic giving that he is my favorite nintendo character. I think he is in the C Tier with Y Link and Ganon.

Inside of each tier there is only a small gap between each character and a much larger gap between the tiers. And leaving pikachu out of A Tier did not feel right given what Axe is doing. IC's is really only represented by Nintendude and Fly at the high level arent they? Chu only had to beat hugs to get top 8 evo (who he has owned the whole time they have been playing all the way back to the mlg era)

 

[pershona]

IC's is really only represented by Nintendude and Fly at the high level arent they? Chu only had to beat hugs to get top 8 evo (who he has owned the whole time they have been playing all the way back to the mlg era)

Chu actually had to beat a lot of good players including, KirbyKaze, Laudandus, Swedish Delight, Silent Wolf and Westballz to make top 8.

You also probably should mention Wobbles for high level IC mains.

 

[TDK]

The thinking for falcon is his matchup spread with the s tier.

Avg.

Sorry for the weird formatting on Falcon's. There is also no Avg. for Falcon here because that would have messed it up even further.

Peach's MU spread is better.

 

[Comet7]

 

[MurphyPrime]

I agree peach is better from an observational viewpoint, but is there enough tourney information to absolutely justify it? Plus where did you get those matchups from? I'm just curious but some matchups might be more opinion based than objective. So while you might be sick of seeing Falcon above Peach, I don't know if you can 100% dispute it.

Wobbles is kind of retired, so I don't know how he would keep up. Also Roy should be #2 to Cena. Otherwise that list looks good to me!

 

[TDK]

I agree peach is better from an observational viewpoint, but is there enough tourney information to absolutely justify it? Plus where did you get those matchups from? I'm just curious but some matchups might be more opinion based than objective. So while you might be sick of seeing Falcon above Peach, I don't know if you can 100% dispute it.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Character_matchup_(SSBM) Peach has a +2 matchup in S tier. Falcon has 2 -2 matchups.

Peach has a better neutral in the fact that Falcon's is largely commital, a projectile [which is also one of the best projectiles in the game, behind the space lasers], a better edge-guarding game, better recovery, a Chain Throw, a down smash that can deal up to 60%, float, a safer approach, AND better matchups vs. the S Tier.

Oh, and Peach beats Falcon in results because Falcon hasn't gotten T8 at a major this year.