Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[1MachGO]

I'll start with a mistake you've made 3 times now to end that waste of time, you will understand why conversing with you would be futile after this -

I never once mentioned flare blade on shield. I specifically mention low percent and higher percents, if you're intelligent you would know I could only be referring to actual hits.....since you know..... when you are shielding percentage doesn't matter, so I'm still unsure why you are writing novels about this misguided rebuttal against a point I never made.

Go look at the frame data on Samus and Falcon U-tilt.....I'm guessing your theory-crafting brain wouldn't understand that high level players actually use those moves in tournament matches. Less range on both, lass active time, less disjoint, similar KB at low and high percents. The only real difference is that they do more damage and so barely have more shield stun, but due to the lesser range and disjoint they really are about equivalent in viability in how they are utilized. Roy's Flare blade serves almost the same purposes except it can actually be used in the air, reversed, and can be charged and hit sweet spots better. Coming from above? Jump flare blade, and as a mix up you can charge it a bit to throw off timing. I'm seen M2K effectively use it on floaties able to recover high as well as Sethlon and Pyro.

Starting to resort to insults now?

I fail to see how the rebuttal is misguided when you further reinforced it by arguing that flare blade is useful in neutral when "spaced right". Why are you so surprised I brought it up again when you continued the topic? Even if you do believe the argument was misappropriated, the facts are legitimate and you are refusing to acknowledge your incorrect statements in other areas; such as the "knockback" on flare blade.

You are also being incredibly fallacious. Attempting to discredit one point does not invalidate an entire argument or facets of said argument.

And your comparison to Samus/Falcon's utilt proves nothing. For starters, I never argued that flare blade was unusable. It is obviously one of his most important "aerials" in terms of knockback (as mediocre as it still is) and good in certain edge guard situations vs. fastfallers, I merely suggested its poor in neutral and not as good as you claim. Second, Samus and Falcon's utilt have significantly higher knockback than uncharged flare blade. Samus's utilt in particular has faster startup and a better reward on hit. She also has a better defense game in general making it easier for her to justify the risk of using it in a neutral situation. You have to consider that Samus and Roy are totally different characters and them having "similar" moves in your eyes doesn't redefine their contexts. I'd say the usability of the respective attacks doesn't extend much further than edgeguarding fast fallers coming in at a high to low trajectory.

And yes, Roy can jump up and flare blade floaties, but its really an option out of necessity; not strength. Floaties can DI in and likely force their way back on stage. It barely classifies as edgeguarding when, you know, you aren't preventing your opponent from recovering.

 

[-ACE-]

One thing's for sure, Roy talk is serious business and undeniably necessary.

2 favorite quotes so far:

"I would argue that good movement is pointless if you have nothing to reinforce it."

"Sorry if I don't think spacing a 16 frame move and landing its very last possible active hitbox on shield is a realistic scenario."

Many lols. Roy REALLY lacks representation. He does have some potential, and I think a top player could pick up Roy and do a some damage, considering no one really specializes in the matchup.

 

[Plunder]

Starting to resort to insults now?

I fail to see how the rebuttal is misguided when you further reinforced it by arguing that flare blade is useful in neutral when "spaced right". Why are you so surprised I brought it up again when you continued the topic? Even if you do believe the argument was misappropriated, the facts are legitimate and you are refusing to acknowledge your incorrect statements in other areas; such as the "knockback" on flare blade.

You are also being incredibly fallacious. Attempting to discredit one point does not invalidate an entire argument or facets of said argument.

And your comparison to Samus/Falcon's utilt proves nothing. For starters, I never argued that flare blade was unusable. It is obviously one of his most important "aerials" in terms of knockback (as mediocre as it still is) and good in certain edge guard situations vs. fastfallers, I merely suggested its poor in neutral and not as good as you claim. Second, Samus and Falcon's utilt have significantly higher knockback than uncharged flare blade. Samus's utilt in particular has faster startup and a better reward on hit. She also has a better defense game in general making it easier for her to justify the risk of using it in a neutral situation. You have to consider that Samus and Roy are totally different characters and them having "similar" moves in your eyes doesn't redefine their contexts. I'd say the usability of the respective attacks doesn't extend much further than edgeguarding fast fallers coming in at a high to low trajectory.

And yes, Roy can jump up and flare blade floaties, but its really an option out of necessity; not strength. Floaties can DI in and likely force their way back on stage. It barely classifies as edgeguarding when, you know, you aren't preventing your opponent from recovering.

1MachGo I really do suggest going and looking deeper at comparitive moves (frames and hitboxes) and learning more about Roy.

The KB on his flare blade uncharged is actually quite similar to the KB on both falcon and samus's U-tilt starting from 0%. So you saying "Samus and Falcon's U-tilts have significantly more KB" makes no sense is and is pretty much completely wrong, uncharged flare blade is only about 5-10% weaker across the spectrum. For it's range and utility I'd put it about even with the usefulness of the 2 U-tilts in question. I haven't even mentioned that a slightly charged flare blade gains a fast boost in KB, and it scales fast as held. So it essentially can be used as a versatile mobile smash attack, and high level players do standing charged smash attacks in high level matches....except Flare Blade can be initiated in the air and reversed.

Again all this is in the limited frame work of Roy, we all know he's not that good and I'm not saying Flare Blade is the best move in the game. But when you compare it to other moves and look deeper into it's usage it's not too much different than other slow moves that have weird properties or hurtbox controtion/disjoint that offset their slow start up and other flaws (e.g. Ganon and Falcons Dair/Down-B/Side-B/Smashes, Yoshi's Fair, Bowser's side B, those U-tilts I mentioned already, etc)

 

[Comet7]

roy's CG vs spacies is worse than marth's and isn't reliable if you can DI well since its knockback angle is slightly more to whichever direction roy is facing than marth's

if i'm getting the info from master hand correctly roy's flare blade and samus's up tilt both have base 40 KB, but flare blade only has 25 KBG, which pales next to samus's up tilt at 100 KBG.

One thing's for sure, Roy talk is serious business and undeniably necessary.

2 favorite quotes so far:

"I would argue that good movement is pointless if you have nothing to reinforce it."

"Sorry if I don't think spacing a 16 frame move and landing its very last possible active hitbox on shield is a realistic scenario."

Many lols. Roy REALLY lacks representation. He does have some potential, and I think a top player could pick up Roy and do a some damage, considering no one really specializes in the matchup.

roy doesn't have anything to enforce it though.

 

[Plunder]

roy's CG vs spacies is worse than marth's and isn't reliable if you can DI well since its knockback angle is slightly more to whichever direction roy is facing than marth's

if i'm getting the info from master hand correctly roy's flare blade and samus's up tilt both have base 40 KB, but flare blade only has 25 KBG, which pales next to samus's up tilt at 100 KBG.

roy doesn't have anything to enforce it though.

Nope. Without even looking at the data and just playing Roy for a few minutes it would be obvious that's not right.

And yes he does. JC Grab, D-tilt, DED, SHFFL Nair, etc. As well as other common shared strats with Marth such as WD back Fsmash....

It's not much but there are limited tools, a few are actually good ones considering his position.

And I'm not sure what you are going on about with his throws...the only throw that has a noticeably different angle is Dthrow and it's only 15 degrees (which makes no difference really). His up throw is only 4 degree difference, everything else is near identical.

 

[EddyBearr]

Grab and d-tilt are the only things I think Roy needs to make good use of his movement.

He's bottom tier but he can definitely do more than most other bottom tiers.

 

[pichuplayer]

Starting to resort to insults now?

I fail to see how the rebuttal is misguided when you further reinforced it by arguing that flare blade is useful in neutral when "spaced right". Why are you so surprised I brought it up again when you continued the topic? Even if you do believe the argument was misappropriated, the facts are legitimate and you are refusing to acknowledge your incorrect statements in other areas; such as the "knockback" on flare blade.

You are also being incredibly fallacious. Attempting to discredit one point does not invalidate an entire argument or facets of said argument.

And your comparison to Samus/Falcon's utilt proves nothing. For starters, I never argued that flare blade was unusable. It is obviously one of his most important "aerials" in terms of knockback (as mediocre as it still is) and good in certain edge guard situations vs. fastfallers, I merely suggested its poor in neutral and not as good as you claim. Second, Samus and Falcon's utilt have significantly higher knockback than uncharged flare blade. Samus's utilt in particular has faster startup and a better reward on hit. She also has a better defense game in general making it easier for her to justify the risk of using it in a neutral situation. You have to consider that Samus and Roy are totally different characters and them having "similar" moves in your eyes doesn't redefine their contexts. I'd say the usability of the respective attacks doesn't extend much further than edgeguarding fast fallers coming in at a high to low trajectory.

And yes, Roy can jump up and flare blade floaties, but its really an option out of necessity; not strength. Floaties can DI in and likely force their way back on stage. It barely classifies as edgeguarding when, you know, you aren't preventing your opponent from recovering.

Insults? dude i may not know much about roy but in all honesty......plunder's right

 

[1MachGO]

1MachGo I really do suggest going and looking deeper at comparitive moves (frames and hitboxes) and learning more about Roy.

The KB on his flare blade uncharged is actually quite similar to the KB on both falcon and samus's U-tilt starting from 0%. So you saying "Samus and Falcon's U-tilts have significantly more KB" makes no sense is and is pretty much completely wrong, uncharged flare blade is only about 5-10% weaker across the spectrum. For it's range and utility I'd put it about even with the usefulness of the 2 U-tilts in question. I haven't even mentioned that a slightly charged flare blade gains a fast boost in KB, and it scales fast as held. So it essentially can be used as a versatile mobile smash attack, and high level players do standing charged smash attacks in high level matches....except Flare Blade can be initiated in the air and reversed.

Again all this is in the limited frame work of Roy, we all know he's not that good and I'm not saying Flare Blade is the best move in the game. But when you compare it to other moves and look deeper into it's usage it's not too much different than other slow moves that have weird properties or hurtbox controtion/disjoint that offset their slow start up and other flaws (e.g. Ganon and Falcons Dair/Down-B/Side-B/Smashes, Yoshi's Fair, Bowser's side B, those U-tilts I mentioned already, etc)

Only looking at 0% isn't an honest, depiction though.

Knockback Units - Frames of Hitstun - Frames Until Knockback is 0

Character|0%|30%|50%|100%
Samus| 70.57 - 28 - 42 | 102.02 - 40 - 61 | 122.98 - 49 - 73 | 175.39 - 70 - 104
C. Falcon| 76.08 - 30 - 45 | 103.03 - 41 - 61 | 120.99 - 48 - 72 | 165.92 - 66 - 98
Roy| 63.75 - 25 - 38 | 83.52 - 33 - 50 | 96.69 - 38 - 57 | 129.63 - 51 - 77|

So while you are right that their knockback is similar at 0%, the difference becomes noticeable very quickly. The knockback of Roy's flare blade at 100% only barely surpasses that of Falcon/Samus's utilt at 50%. 30 knockback units is a very significant gap, and for a frame of reference, the difference between Roy's flare blade and Samus's utilt at 100% is roughly the same as the difference between Mario's bair and Peach's fair (though even that is being a little generous; as I stated earlier, Mario's bair is stronger than flare blade at this percent).

Again, I will remind you that disagreeing on one front does not dismiss an entire argument. Only looking at 0% is an incredibly narrow scope and doesn't provide sufficient enough evidence to make the claim that their knockback is "similar" in their entirety. This is before we consider the implications of damage, usability, and most importantly, context. The grounds its probably most fair to compare the attacks is in edgeguarding situations. If we are talking about covering the ledge in reflexive scenarios, then its the utilts > flare blade because they have the stronger knockback (and better start up in Samus's case) and Roy is better off using fsmash/tipper dsmash. If we are talking about a slow, high to low recovery from Fox or Falcon, then its flare blade > utilts since Roy can charge; easing timing and eventually dealing more knockback. In neutral scenarios, Samus is a character who can create favorable spacing situations and can take more risks in neutral. If we are talking about edge guarding high, yes, it has more utility than Falcon/Samus's grounded utilts, but they have better aerial edge guarding options. Furthermore, in the grounds they can be compared in, its not so definitive as to which move is better.

And while flare blade is similar in terms of arc or high start up to some of the moves you've mentioned, concept is the only clear commonality. You have to consider the uses of a launcher/meteor against that of a 45 degree angle attack, or how a character like Captain Falcon can leap frog human reaction time with his movement and can essentially start his high wind up attacks at great distances or create off beats in his rhythm.

So while I agree that Roy's neutral b is one of his more important moves in his limited arsenal, I disagree on the front that it is an effective edgeguard tool against "most of the cast" or that it has "impressive" knockback; among some of the other things you've said (primarily in regards to Roy's movement)

 

[Plunder]

Yea but I guess you are forgetting the part where twice you claimed that both U-tilts had SIGNIFICANTLY more KB than flare blade. Which I'll state again is just flat out wrong. Everything I've said up until now is pretty accurate, at low percents they are all very close and into the higher percents they still have similar growth and trajectories, the difference isn't not substantial for the purposes they serve.

Also the fact that you are suggesting using Dsmash on edgeguards (which takes 74 frames to complete) is adding yet another reason I'm not sure we're on the same level here when discussion Roy. Sorry, but why....why even argue? I could understand if you were a Roy expert and you actually knew what you were talking about. You don't have to act like you know every character better than anyone else. It's apparent you don't, it's ok to not be an expert at everything.

 

[pichuplayer]

the truth be told lol

 

[Comet7]

http://smashboards.com/threads/how-do-i-0-death-ffers-on-fd.409047/#post-19889251

and roy doesn't have much more than DD to (optional pivot) down tilt or grab. everything else is at least somewhat laggy (doing more than one swing of DED from neutral is risky) and most of the stuff can be crouch canceled.

 

[1MachGO]

Yea but I guess you are forgetting the part where twice you claimed that both U-tilts had SIGNIFICANTLY more KB than flare blade. Which I'll state again is just flat out wrong. Everything I've said up until now is pretty accurate, at low percents they are all very close and into the higher percents they still have similar growth and trajectories, the difference isn't not substantial for the purposes they serve.

Also the fact that you are suggesting using Dsmash on edgeguards (which takes 74 frames to complete) is adding yet another reason I'm not sure we're on the same level here when discussion Roy. Sorry, but why....why even argue? I could understand if you were a Roy expert and you actually knew what you were talking about. You don't have to act like you know every character better than anyone else. It's apparent you don't, it's ok to not be an expert at everything.

The knockback is only similar at extremely low percents. 30%+ the difference becomes noteworthy and certainly becomes significant at 50%+.

The fact you can look at factual, measurable data and still disagree is mind boggling. How can you see a difference of 20+ knockback units, 10-20 frames of hitstun, or 10-30 frames of knockback not be significant? I suppose the knockback of Mario's bair is "similar" to Peach's nair as well? I am beginning to think you actually don't understand how obvious the differences are in game.

I included tipper dsmash because its hitbox is low, far, and relatively powerful at high percent. It is obviously a huge commitment, but it has situational advantages over fsmash (which is weak at the tip). I never spoke of it as being the be-all-end-all of Roy's edge guarding; just an option I could see him using against most of the cast in passing because its reflexive. And again, disagreeing on this aspect does not invalidate the entire argument and its another fallacy of you moving the goalpost. If it was truly the "deal breaker" for you, you should have brought up it earlier. I have no doubt that if I omitted it earlier, you'd be accusing me of the reverse.

My only interest in this situation is caring about the kind of information being spread in the community. And as enticing as it is to have a ****ing contest about who has more game knowledge, I am simply going to let the facts speak for themselves. I have presented concrete evidence that flare blade has inferior knockback to both utilts and this gap begins expanding notably at 30% (and, yes, does become significant). All you've done is made nit-pick accusations, ignored counterarguments (I can only assume you are incapable of admitting you're wrong in some kind of misguided form of internet pride; thus refusing to reply to situations you've lost), and have brought hostility and negativity to the discussion in general. If you choose to pretend that these values don't translate into major differences in engine, than I suggest you stop posting declarative statements about characters in a game you clearly don't understand.

 

[-ACE-]

Like I said. Roy talk. Serious business.

 

[Barbeque]

the tier list from 2013 to my point of view, still seems really sturdy in terms of ranking characters solely based on their up most potentials when pushed to their limits in a general sense. S tier seems to be very rigid to me. The A tier being Doctor Mario, Pikachu, Samus, Ganon, Luigi, Mario, seems a little strange although keeping in mind the meta of speed and aggression/pressure capabilities reigning (and recoveries) it kind of makes sense. Pikachu being higher than samus and ganon is surprising but believeable. I definitely think young link is best in B, and all the other B tiers seem perfectly fine as is. I think if it were even the slightest change to the 2013 list it would be pretty questionable. Marth is definetly not higher than sheik simply because sheik has more matchups weighting more-so in her favour than marth to all other characters in the game.

so the debate i think is if it should remain the same, rather than be altered.

 

[pichuplayer]

the tier list from 2013 to my point of view, still seems really sturdy in terms of ranking characters solely based on their up most potentials when pushed to their limits in a general sense. S tier seems to be very rigid to me. The A tier being Doctor Mario, Pikachu, Samus, Ganon, Luigi, Mario, seems a little strange although keeping in mind the meta of speed and aggression/pressure capabilities reigning (and recoveries) it kind of makes sense. Pikachu being higher than samus and ganon is surprising but believeable. I definitely think young link is best in B, and all the other B tiers seem perfectly fine as is. I think if it were even the slightest change to the 2013 list it would be pretty questionable. Marth is definetly not higher than sheik simply because sheik has more matchups weighting more-so in her favour than marth to all other characters in the game.

so the debate i think is if it should remain the same, rather than be altered.

well what about Yoshi? he should be in a tier and sadly Doc should move down since he has noone

 

[MudkipUniverse]

so about Marth>Sheik. I have a comparison of their MU's in the Top 8, or really just my thoughts on the MU's.

Fox: Marth
Falco: Marth
Sheik: Even or Sheik
Marth: Even or Sheik
Puff: Marth
Peach: Marth
Falcon: Sheik
IC's: Marth

Marth: 5
Sheik: 1-3

This could also be extended to an even further point in the cast, which would result in sheik having much better MU's.

 

[Barbeque]

the moral of the story is, anyone below S tier is quite unlikely to take top 5 in a national or win 1st in a regional. the ones that come closest probably deserve higher/highest from A tier if they do it consistently or quite convincingly. yoshi is probably a character deserving to be thought over, but i think link, young link and DK have solid combos against S tiers, and link, young link have probably better neutral game/projectiles than yoshi.


edit: i messed up posting that but its my take on the tier in 2015.

falcon is higher than peach because some S tiers above peach have been considered not in her favour, whereas with falcon its quite close to 50/50 with some (marth). and there are many falcons, and many that do good. armada has said there's peach matchups within S tiers that are definitely not in peaches favour.

Sheik will have an easier time given a match-up across all the characters on average total in comparison to Marth. From tiers A,B,C, and D, sheik has on average, a slight bigger advantage than marth has against them, by a decent margin.

 

[Barbeque]

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pichu lower than Bowser?
Dr.Mario higher than Pikachu?
Yoshi on place 18!?
Mewtwo below Zelda and Roy?

Nah man

 

[-ACE-]

Oh no bro, yoshi so low yo.

 

[Mugifi]

^That's the 2013 tier list but with an additional tier to separate Yoshi and Zelda rofl

 

[TheBaconDrinker]

I've seen this list somewhere, but i can't put my finger on where...

 

[Dire Creeper]

I've seen this list somewhere, but i can't put my finger on where...

You mean the Smash wiki?

 

[Plunder]

I've seen it in my dreams...

so dreamy

 

[MitchBerryCrunch]

Updated OD real tier list; this is the tier list, there is no argument :

OD Tier
Fox

High Tier
Marth
Falco
Sheik

Upper Tier
Puff
Peach
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers

Viable Tier
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi

Formerly Viable
Ganondorf
Dr. Mario

Decent Tier
Mario
Young Link
Link

Meh Tier
Roy
D.K.
Yoshi

Dirt Tier
Mewtwo
Bowser
Zelda
Pichu
Ness

Unusable Tier
Kirby
Mr. G&W

 

[TheBaconDrinker]

Updated OD real tier list; this is the tier list, there is no argument :

OD Tier
Fox

High Tier
Marth
Falco
Sheik

Upper Tier
Puff
Peach
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers

Viable Tier
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi

Formerly Viable
Ganondorf
Dr. Mario

Decent Tier
Mario
Young Link
Link

Meh Tier
Roy
D.K.
Yoshi

Dirt Tier
Mewtwo
Bowser
Zelda
Pichu
Ness

Unusable Tier
Kirby
Mr. G&W

Roy above DK/Yoshi
G&W bottom
Bowser that high
whut.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Updated OD real tier list; this is the tier list, there is no argument :

OD Tier
Fox

High Tier
Marth
Falco
Sheik

Upper Tier
Puff
Peach
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers

Viable Tier
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi

Formerly Viable
Ganondorf
Dr. Mario

Decent Tier
Mario
Young Link
Link

Meh Tier
Roy
D.K.
Yoshi

Dirt Tier
Mewtwo
Bowser
Zelda
Pichu
Ness

Unusable Tier
Kirby
Mr. G&W

is this tier list a meme or something?
G&W definitely is not bottom
Roy is def not that good
Doc belongs above ganon.

 

[MitchBerryCrunch]

Trust, G&W is dicksweat useless character

 

[pichuplayer]

Trust, G&W is dicksweat useless character

sure....and kirby is top tier

 

[PineTree2.0]

YOSHI FOR A TIER

 

[pichuplayer]

YOSHI FOR A TIER

sorry if i come of as rude but.....have you seen most of the tier lists on here you saying this is well...usless

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I might as well post my newest Tier List. It may seem scary that there's 11 tiers.
S Tier:
1.
2.
3.
4.

A+ Tier:
5.
6.

A Tier:
7.
8.

A- Tier:
9.
10.
11.

B+ Tier:
12.
13.

B Tier:
14.
15.

B- Tier:
16.
17.
18.
19.

Pichu (C+) Tier:
20.

C Tier:
21.
22.

Kirby (C-) Tier:
23.

D Tier:
24.
25.
26.

 

[pichuplayer]

I might as well post my newest Tier List. It may seem scary that there's 11 tiers.
S Tier:
1.
2.
3.
4.

A+ Tier:
5.
6.

A Tier:
7.
8.

A- Tier:
9.
10.
11.

B+ Tier:
12.
13.

B Tier:
14.
15.

B- Tier:
16.
17.
18.
19.

Pichu (C+) Tier:
20.

C Tier:
21.
22.

Kirby (C-) Tier:
23.

D Tier:
24.
25.
26.

most likely one of the more solid lists good job

 

[-ACE-]

Pichu 3 tiers above Roy. Lol

Mario over Ganon?

 

[Facading]

I vote for a new list to actually come out!

 

[DSE|Mythic]

1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Shiek
4. Falco
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Dr.Mario
12. Luigi
13. Yoshi
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario
16. Young Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Link
19. Mewtwo
20. Roy
21. Mr Game & Watch
22. Ness
23. Bowser
24. Zelda
25. Pichu
26. Kirby

 

[pichuplayer]

1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Shiek
4. Falco
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Dr.Mario
12. Luigi
13. Yoshi
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario
16. Young Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Link
19. Mewtwo
20. Roy
21. Mr Game & Watch
22. Ness
23. Bowser
24. Zelda
25. Pichu
26. Kirby

M2 at 19? lol switch him and Game & Watch and your fine

 

[pagedMov]

Updated OD real tier list; this is the tier list, there is no argument :

OD Tier
Fox

High Tier
Marth
Falco
Sheik

Upper Tier
Puff
Peach
C. Falcon
Ice Climbers

Viable Tier
Samus
Pikachu
Luigi

Formerly Viable
Ganondorf
Dr. Mario

Decent Tier
Mario
Young Link
Link

Meh Tier
Roy
D.K.
Yoshi

Dirt Tier
Mewtwo
Bowser
Zelda
Pichu
Ness

Unusable Tier
Kirby
Mr. G&W

I don't see why you seperated most of the original S tier. Most of the characters in the top tier (save falcon and ICs) can stand up to other characters in the top tier so there's no real point in putting an imaginary gap between them

 

[Barbeque]

none of you noticed the falcon and peach switch but alright. and none of you gave a basis or argument for changing the characters you mentioned but alright. and seems like none of you took the post i made earlier into account but alright

have your fun then

 

[MudkipUniverse]

For a bit I thought that Ness was underrated, but now I def think he's bottom 3