pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
speaking of not talking about non viable characters what about zelda i think we can all agree she's bad like bottom 4 bad
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Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
My personal tier list is like this:
(I tried as hard as possible to not let any of my bias come in.)
Sorry it's so long if you are really bored. Just read the list if you don't care for my explanations >_<
What are your thoughts?
EDIT: Edited Zelda reasoning.
(I tried as hard as possible to not let any of my bias come in.)
What are your thoughts?
EDIT: Edited Zelda reasoning.
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EddyBearr
Smash Lord
Disagree. Bottom 4 is clearly Kirby/Ness/Pichu/Bowser in some order. They're all a tier below the "low tiers" in 2013 for a reason.
With that said, I think it'd be possible to consider Zelda "bottom tier"as well if the bottom tier also includes Roy, G&W, and Mewtwo (thus being 8 characters who are "so bad" that they might as well be "as bad as Bowser/Pichu/etc."
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
The Samus is easier than Pikachu thing is at least a relevant point because it means that Samus puts less stress on the user. Thus in clutch moments, you are more likely to pull through with Samus than Pikachu when you factor in nerves and the possibility that the player will not bring their best execution to a tournament on a particular day.
In some ways, Samus has a lot of potential too. People have not even begun to scratch the surface of Samus's SH ff missile tech or her SWD in critical situations. Bomb pressure on shield has still not been explored much either.
My point still stands. Samus has less tools so it doesn't matter how easy they are to execute. Especially at high and top level play where the competitors are far more consistent. Marth has easier execution than Fox but that doesn't mean Marth is better in the Falcon MU or Puff MU or Sheik MU. He doesn't have as powerful of options.
Of the things you have listed, I think bomb pressure is the only one with merit but SH ff missile is still slow and its really hard to see a game changing application of SWD.
Pikachu inarguably has more potential since only one player has developed him at high/top level and it seems unlikely a character can be solved from one perspective. Stuff like dthrow tech chasing, and pivot options (especially approaching pivot uair which gives him a disjointed approach) seem far more practical and haven't been implement yet.
Er, no. The only MU Plup seems to switch back to Samus for is ICs which Samus is absolutely better at than Sheik.
Plup was having controller issues and probably opted for Samus to compensate (since Leffen isn't good at the MU) at Evo 2015. This is basically the only instance where he switched back. The day before he beat Mango with Sheik and went Sheik vs Mango, Leffen, Westballz, Zhu, etc at CEO... so I have no idea where you are getting your conclusion from.
Whether it be Sheik's ledge options, non tether grab and amazing grab follow ups, stellar edge guards/gimp game, higher resistance to vertical KOs, etc. Sheik is absolutely superior in the Fox/Falco MU.
While Samus's high tier Fox/Falco MUs are disproportionately better than her other top tier MUs, they definitely aren't as good as Marth, Sheik, and probably Peach when its all said and done. I think people are just **** riding Samus since Leffen lost a couple times. People shouldn't forget Hax utterly dominated Plup at BH4 or that Alex19 beat Hugs like a week before [after?] the latter beat Leffen; its a completely different look when the player knows the MU.
IMO, Pikachu has the better tools on paper and the data to back it up. It feels more or less assured that he has the strongest Fox/Falco MUs in mid tier.
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
well sure my bottom tier most likley would go like this
G&W
Ness
M2
Pichu
Zelda
Roy
Bowser
Kirby
while Pichu has seen some representation even if it was for fun its SOMETHING and is better than zelda's and Roy's
EddyBearr
Smash Lord
Zelda has: Cosmo, The Lake, Upke, Max Berger, Ice / Overtriforce & Mew2King. Zelda has seen high level play and success with all of these. Not only is this more than Pichu's representation, but it's probably the best representation and greatest results of any of the "bottom 8" characters.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Once again, I agree with most of this. But I don't think Pikachu has more tools, at least in neutral. Pikachu is actually kind of limited in neutral to dash dance grab/nair/d-tilt and uair in some situations. Upsmash is not very good in neutral, but it can be worth fishing for if it will lead to a kill or a good combo, especially if you have a read on someone's movement.
Samus can utilize all three of her tilts very commonly in the neutral, with the most notable one being f-tilt. Her jab is quite good as well for setting up staccato frame traps or shield pressuring from behind an opponent. Her d-smash is practically spammable in combination with her crouch cancel and grab is usable as a mixup when the opponent expects you to throw out a limb. While she can't really use her aerials in neutral, occasionally she has time to throw a missile. And if the opponent ever jumps, your aerials become unlocked (as Pikachu's uair would in a similar scenario).
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
ohhhh.....wow i'm stupid
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Cosmo, The Lake, Upke ... okay. You might have forgotten Mewtwo, with TAJ, Iori, M2K, Prof, and MookieRah. Also, QERB's GaW has made more waves for the character than any Zelda player ever has (imo), beating the Moon and other highly skilled Tristate players.
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By a long shot, G&W is probably one of the only low tiers with lots of impressive stuff under his belt. He has potential without a doubt, but he has the slowest improving metagame I've ever seen based on any character. Sure there's F tiers, but geez, G&W's meta slowly grew into this now, and it's only enough to make him just a spot higher on the tier list imo.
Pikachu has more tools on average because he can more readily respond to an opponent shielding and dash dancing has far more application than wavedash (at least in the context of neutral). He can't hail mary nairs, but the fact cross ups exist means that the best option against his nair is outprioritizing. This allows him to create situations where he can condition his opponent and bait them. Again, Pikachu can play on his own merits whereas Samus requires the opponent to confront her specifically in situations she is good at.
EddyBearr
Smash Lord
QERB above all, but he's almost alone with G&W apart from an occasional The Phenom. I'd rather take Cosmo, The Lake, & the Europeans before Taj & Zoma.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Ahhhh that was nice....I didn't even have to reply to any of the counter arguments about my list prediction. Everyone else pointed out the obvious reasoning behind my order and placements 
Sempai
Smash Ace
Wheres Mew2kings Tier list, now that Id love to see 
Falco 1st, no question.
Falco 1st, no question.
Glad to know that 8 months is when anything relevant to the meta expires but "historic performance" is paradoxically utilized in your argument.
I also completely fail to see how none of the advantages you've given Alex19 don't apply to Hugs. Hugs is the better player and should win if the MU isn't that disadvantageous.
And how do you explain Plup going Sheik vs. Fox when Samus is apparently better in the MU? Do you honestly think he would have upset Mango with Samus at evo?
Speaking of which, when do you think we'll see a Samus actually upset a top player who is familiar in the MU? Leffen lost to Plup/Hugs due to his unfamiliarity, but he nearly dropped a set to Drugged Fox and Plup in the Sheik/Fox MU, and later lost to M2K at PAX despite being one of the best in the world vs. Sheik.
And perhaps thats where I am most confused about your historic performance argument. When you compare samples on a level playing field (i.e. equal match up knowledge) Sheik/Peach outperform Samus in the MU because its been demonstrated that they can compete at that level. The same cannot be said for Samus.
Sempai
Smash Ace
I dont like the word meta in smash, just bc there arent any patches, but anyway.
Samus just has an even matchup with these (spacies) characters, hard to combo her, she hits hard, and has great defensive options.
You can ignore the facts all you want, but thats how it is
However her other matchups tho, ehhhhhhh.
Sempai
Smash Ace
For sure, it just feels weird, like when people mention Meta in League of legends its like k, but it chess and smash it feels so.....misplaced.?
Haha idk just a peeve I guess. But anyway back to Samus, thats why Sheik is so great for Plup matchup wise, she covers Sheik's hardest (arguably) match up, Fox.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Well you seemed to have assigned your own different meaning to meta, it's just the evolution of different aspects of a game over time.
In a static game like Melee I think it's actually more meaningful and interesting because every change is done internally and through players figuring out emergent game-play mechanics and new MU strategies. Everything was already there, it was just undiscovered or awaiting development / incorporation. Changing the meta with an outside influence like a forced patch or expansion is a very cheap and uninteresting way for it to happen, basically it just becomes a brand new game and not even about the meta of the original game IMO.
In a static game like Melee I think it's actually more meaningful and interesting because every change is done internally and through players figuring out emergent game-play mechanics and new MU strategies. Everything was already there, it was just undiscovered or awaiting development / incorporation. Changing the meta with an outside influence like a forced patch or expansion is a very cheap and uninteresting way for it to happen, basically it just becomes a brand new game and not even about the meta of the original game IMO.
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Thunderman
Smash Rookie
I believe with the neutral work that has been brought to the meta game, and the fact that Fox now has a slight edge over Marth on FD which used to just be Chaingrab Central for spacies. That Fox still has priority over Marth as the number one spot, but it is still painfully close between those two.
As far as the Falco Sheik issue, let's look at the amount of approach options each have and tools they can use to succeed. Falco is limited by his lack of forward offensive moves if he cannot get off the ground. his only options are d-tilt, grab, jab, dash attack, and a lag filled f-smash, where as, Sheik has faster versions of all of those moves and her down throw can combo into just about any move in her arsenal if the opponent DI's that way. From a recovery stand point Sheik has the biggest advantage and can consistently make it back from blast zone sending hits on almost all stages in the game, but a few years ago when they made this the only reason Falco wasn't number one was his recovery was simply too limited. Combo game they are both proficient with, but I think Sheik could still have a slight edge based solely on her tilts range and mobility.
Top four being
1) Fox
2) Marth
3) Sheik
4) Falco
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Fox only beats marth on FD in theoryland.
Well someone can't think of a counterargument and is choosing to strawman.
Seriously, first you say that Plup uses Samus to CP Fox
When I pointed out that was wrong, you then focus on the MUs
When I make a strong case against Samus's Fox MU, you then make it about the "meta"
please.
ICs are probably Sheik's hardest MU. Its also the only MU Plup switches for.
tsm2k420XX
Smash Cadet
I'm gonna main pichu and become a top player. Just wait Kappa
gmBottles
Fun Haver
Or maybe it's because Samus obliterates ICs lmao
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Sheik vs fox meta is much more developed than samus vs fox, and conclusions reached for the latter will be based more on speculation. I believe upon further exploration (and more occurrences of this matchup at top level- and remember it's not top level if they lack experience) it'll be easy to see sheik has the better matchup vs fox.
DeepDish
Smash Apprentice
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I think you're overrating Pikachu's nair in neutral. While it is one of his biggest assets, that also makes it one of his biggest weaknesses, because the opponent will always be looking for it. It can easily lose to dash dance / pivot grab or a retreating aerial, or just a straight up disjointed hitbox. Samus has much safer options in neutral, as her only moves that are really hard-commits are her grab and her d-smash. Her tilts are only a noticeable liability if you're playing against a Leffen who is ready to WD out of shield shine punish you everytime.
Plunder
Smash Ace
You can't pivot grab Pikachu's DD or Dash SH Nair on reaction, and it certainly beats any dash dance in the game including Falcon's, since you know Pikachu's SH Dash jump covers half of FD. A lot of stuff can beat Nair's low priority, but if you aren't fast enough or able to throw out a constant wall of safe long lasting hitboxes it doesn't matter. You're gonna get Nair'ed before you see it coming.
Not only that but Pikachu's DD / WD / Dash Dtilt is an amazing tool and it can open up for SHFFL Nair or other follow up since it's only 19 frames IASA and has great range. Axe uses dtilt approach almost as much as SH Nairs and DD Up-smashes.
I think Samus has an easier spacies MU initially, but I don't think it's necessarily better the higher up you go in bracket. Really I wouldn't call it either way for sure since there is no overwhelming reasoning to justify it.
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
You absolutely can react to Pikachu's nair with dd/pivot grab. They just have to be nairs that are either spaced too conservatively or you have to bait them to nair into a position that fulfills your threshold. Knowing when and why the opposing Pikachu is choosing to nair helps with this.
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Well the average reaction time is probably somewhere between 12-15 frames. Pikachu can get a nair hitbox out as quickly as 6 frames. So it is more than unreactable in plenty of situations. It is part of why aggression works so well in Melee to begin with.
I would also say that Pikachu's air speed is too good to reliably DD grab his nair like he is Fox. You could very easily position yourself to overshoot like Falcon; making intercept or shield the only option.
Pikachu just has to dash dance a lot and adjust his spacing to bait grab/nair openings, dtilt poke, or unreactable nair mix ups.
I would also say that Pikachu's air speed is too good to reliably DD grab his nair like he is Fox. You could very easily position yourself to overshoot like Falcon; making intercept or shield the only option.
Pikachu just has to dash dance a lot and adjust his spacing to bait grab/nair openings, dtilt poke, or unreactable nair mix ups.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Nah you can't. Not unless you have have a 3-5 frame reaction time, which no human has...15-18 frames is average reaction time in a tournament setting + grab still takes 7 frames + you have to factor in when you will be able to perform the pivot frame, that is IF you can at all when a Pikachu is DD, WD'ing, and spazzing out right in front of your face. Get the timing wrong and you're getting quickly grabbed, Up smashed, or Up-aired into a whole lot of hurt.
The scenario you are describing is a bad player using Pikachu and throwing out ill spaced approaches....so should we also use a noob Samus player for comparison?
Aside from Jiggs and the spacies, Pikachu actually has one of the safest approaches. Every dash SH Nair can be a cross up whether it hits them or their shield and after the cross up Pikachu has one of the best cross up follow ups....Up air - insane disjoint/range, super fast starting from behind, and leads to so many combos. Or he can do so many other fast safe options....he can even do another pivot dash SH Nair right through you. Not many characters have fast OoS options that cover behind them before Pikachu can move again.
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gmBottles
Fun Haver
Why you gotta resort to insulting the man though? Just explain why you're right and he's wrong, unless you're wrong and don't wanna admit it
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Edit: If you are going based off pure time it takes for the move to come out, you're not seeing the bigger picture. Both players are constantly adjusting their positioning relative to each other via dash dance. If you're just standing in range to get hit by a running Pikachu nair on the first possible frame that the hitbox is out, you're dash dancing incorrectly. Pikachu is typically going to aim to hit you while flying toward you with the nair, transferring his forward momentum into a hitbox with good reach. The opposing player only has to make the move whiff once he sees its trajectory and punish the landing.
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