Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[ChivalRuse]

Tier: godlike
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Tier: stronk
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
Tier: trifflin'
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
Tier: unviable
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[-ACE-]

Tier: godlike
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Tier: stronk
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
Tier: trifflin'
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
Tier: unviable
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

Good list my man. but I'd separate jiggs/peach from the other top 4 personally (almost godlike? Demigod like? Lmao). I can see your reasoning though. Pretty awesome how you grouped them tbh. Accuracy is high for being so simple.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You could put them in a lower tier, but I'd argue that Jiggs and Peach's recoveries and their neutral game give them a deserving spot in the tier with Fox. (Edit: they're still obviously worse characters than Fox, but I'd say they still are in his class).

 

[1MachGO]

Tier: godlike
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Tier: stronk
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
Tier: trifflin'
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
Tier: unviable
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

I am curious. What is your reasoning for Samus being so high? Even above ICs and Pikachu?

 

[pichuplayer]

I am curious. What is your reasoning for Samus being so high? Even above ICs and Pikachu?

Maybe due to more mains for Pika idk about ic's though

 

[ChivalRuse]

Samus is good vs space animals mainly. She's better than Pikachu without any debate. And while she is close to ICs, she is a more consistent character across more matchups. ICs kind of lose to camping.

 

[pichuplayer]

Samus is good vs space animals mainly. She's better than Pikachu without any debate. And while she is close to ICs, she is a more consistent character across more matchups. ICs kind of lose to camping.

Any debate? i'm not sure about that in some situations Pika is better than samus i think Pika is better than samus imo

 

[1MachGO]

Samus is good vs space animals mainly. She's better than Pikachu without any debate. And while she is close to ICs, she is a more consistent character across more matchups. ICs kind of lose to camping.

I think you are putting too much weight on her spacies match ups. She is definitely one of the better picks against them, but I would say the extent of that potency has been misrepresented by recent results (namely due to Leffen's inexperience) and whether or not she is even superior to other mid tiers in that category is a debate in and of itself. She is a ground based character that his been subjugated into that archetype by her glaring flaws like crap air mobilty. Sure, she has interesting zoning tools, strong attacks, and a good recovery, but she has polarizing OoS options, no reliable way to deal with shields, and stringently relies on consecutive neutral victories and attrition rather than single openings to secure a kill.

I would also go as far to say that the Samus/Sheik MU is nearly unwinnable at top level assuming equal skill and MU knowledge between the two players. I mean, Plup lost to Swedish Delight at Apex (allegedly due to camping) and Plup not-so-coincidentally lost faith in the character. It seems like too important of a MU to lose and I don't feel that Pikachu or ICs have this apparent of an upper limit currently. Sure, ICs/Peach is a terrible MU, but at least they have a way of threatening shields and reliably killing their opponent in one opening; something Samus sorely lacks.

All and all, I think Samus is a character that relies too heavily on opponent error rather than the raw strength of her own tools. Pikachu and ICs don't seem to be as restrained.

 

[-ACE-]

Pika has a nasty punish game on spacies....

 

[1MachGO]

Yeah, I think Pikachu actually has one of the best Fox/Falco match ups in the game when its all said and done. Top tier mobility, absurd gimp potential, arguably the best FD chaingrab, etc.

Plus he has some other unoptimized things like dthrow tech chasing. If that can be mastered, he'd essentially have the best average kill potential from a grab on fast fallers in the entire game.

 

[gmBottles]

Yeah, I think Pikachu actually has one of the best Fox/Falco match ups in the game when its all said and done. Top tier mobility, absurd gimp potential, arguably the best FD chaingrab, etc.

Plus he has some other unoptimized things like dthrow tech chasing. If that can be mastered, he'd essentially have the best average kill potential from a grab on fast fallers in the entire game.

I think you're forgetting about Marth, who has top tier mobility, absurd gimp potential, arguably the best FD chaingrab, etc.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Samus' options out of shield aren't polarizing lol. WD out of shield is always a solid option and having the ability to nair or up-b out of shield is just way better than average. Shield grabbing in this meta is garbage, so the fact that she doesn't have that shouldn't be harped on.

ICs just get mollywhopped if you ever separate them. People are just stupid and do unsafe options (like run into their auto cancelled uairs and get grabbed). If you just camp them and wait for your openings, they are way easier to handle. You can't camp Samus easily because of her own projectiles being way stronger than most in the long grind game. And rushing her down isn't particularly bright either with her strong CC game and tilt zoning.

 

[EddyBearr]

I think Pikachu's matchup on spacies kinda suck. Pika's easy to combo, has weak approaches, can be forced to approach, has low priority, and is very susceptible to both Fox and Falco's main KO set-ups. He can dash dance and play a game but he is significantly disadvantaged.

I think you're forgetting about Marth, who has top tier mobility, absurd gimp potential, arguably the best FD chaingrab, etc.

As well as Sheik, who has high tier mobility, mega-absurd gimp potential, arguably the best FD "chain-grab" / reaction tech-chase, etc..

As well as Falcon, who has top tier mobility, strong edgeguarding, a fantastic FD tech-chase, etc..

 

[1MachGO]

Samus' options out of shield aren't polarizing lol. WD out of shield is always a solid option and having the ability to nair or up-b out of shield is just way better than average. Shield grabbing in this meta is garbage, so the fact that she doesn't have that shouldn't be harped on.

ICs just get mollywhopped if you ever separate them. People are just stupid and do unsafe options (like run into their auto cancelled uairs and get grabbed). If you just camp them and wait for your openings, they are way easier to handle. You can't camp Samus easily because of her own projectiles being way stronger than most in the long grind game. And rushing her down isn't particularly bright either with her strong CC game and tilt zoning.

They are polarizing because none of her options are balanced. She either goes for a high start up ground option or a low start up but laggy aerial option. Yeah, WD OoS isn't bad, but there is still a 14 frame start up (minimum) where she is vulnerable. It completely loses to stuff like Marth's dtilt pressure and its more likely she'll have to give up more stage than punish someone.

Shield grabbing may also be "garbage" according to you, but it officially gives her no answer to people shielding next to her. As long as you aren't -5 on block vs. Samus or in up-b OoS range, there is literally nothing she can do about you shielding after you attack. Nair OoS and up-b OoS are completely off the table at this point. If you're in this position, the only thing you have to worry about is cross up WD OoS but it shouldn't be hard to cover that once you've isolated someone's options that much. If getting hit by IC's uairs makes you stupid, I fail to see how getting hit by one of Samus's OoS options makes you anymore intelligent when all you have to do is press L or R. Or just space for that matter.

I would also say that you aren't looking at camping holistically. What are Samus's answers to top platform camping? Her projectiles are certainly useless at this point and assuming you have a percent lead you have officially forced her into the air; an incredibly disadvantageous position for Samus.

I think you're forgetting about Marth, who has top tier mobility, absurd gimp potential, arguably the best FD chaingrab, etc.

lol. Wasn't really trying to argue that Marth was better than Pikachu vs. spacies, but I would say he is somewhat outclassed in the latter two categories. At least by Pika.

I think Pikachu's matchup on spacies kinda suck. Pika's easy to combo, has weak approaches, can be forced to approach, has low priority, and is very susceptible to both Fox and Falco's main KO set-ups. He can dash dance and play a game but he is significantly disadvantaged.

I feel that Pikachu being easy to combo and being susceptible to both Fox and Falco's main KO set ups is kind of irrelevant information. Its a blanket statement that can be applied to pretty much any character in the game.

Also, what is Fox's main KO set up? Are you talking about uthrow uair? I would say that Pikachu isn't anymore vulnerable to being uthrow-uaired, than say, Marth, and has the additional perk of never being waveshined or shine gimped which is far more valuable imo.

As for approach/being forced to approach, I am not sure how much credit Pikachu's mobility is being given. His runspeed is on par with Marth/Sheik and he has one of the best run jump airspeeds in the game. I am not so sure if Fox/Falco laser camping would be effective against someone who can close gaps that rapidly. If we are talking about dash dance camping there are ways for Pikachu to increment his spacing to mitigate that. Pikachu is obviously never at liberty to just charge in and nair, but he has legit cross ups, he can outprioritize with uair and dsmash, poke with dtilt, etc. He has plenty of tools and certainly more than a lot of other characters in this MU.

 

[ChivalRuse]

They are polarizing because none of her options are balanced. She either goes for a high start up ground option or a low start up but laggy aerial option. Yeah, WD OoS isn't bad, but there is still a 14 frame start up (minimum) where she is vulnerable. It completely loses to stuff like Marth's dtilt pressure and its more likely she'll have to give up more stage than punish someone.

Shield grabbing may also be "garbage" according to you, but it officially gives her no answer to people shielding next to her. As long as you aren't -5 on block vs. Samus or in up-b OoS range, there is literally nothing she can do about you shielding after you attack. Nair OoS and up-b OoS are completely off the table at this point. If you're in this position, the only thing you have to worry about is cross up WD OoS but it shouldn't be hard to cover that once you've isolated someone's options that much. If getting hit by IC's uairs makes you stupid, I fail to see how getting hit by one of Samus's OoS options makes you anymore intelligent when all you have to do is press L or R. Or just space for that matter.

I would also say that you aren't looking at camping holistically. What are Samus's answers to top platform camping? Her projectiles are certainly useless at this point and assuming you have a percent lead you have officially forced her into the air; an incredibly disadvantageous position for Samus.

Up-b out of shield is better than you think. Many times that you do it, it is highly likely to hit, depending on the read that you have on the opponent's shield pressure, or simply if they do something laggy on your shield like an early aerial. It's harder to smash DI than people say, in practice. If there are platforms you have the option to land on them, fast fall through, or even ledgecancel. It's invincible on startup ...

WD out of shield isn't bad? You make it sound like it's barely usable. Please watch HugS or Plup in literally any matchup. WD out of shield is a bread and butter movement option for getting out of pressure, especially with Samus who has a 14 frame WD (the fastest possible WD). The vulnerable part of the wavedash is irrelevant as long as you react to your opponent's movement/pressure strings. If you do it YOLO and they read it, then you deserve to get punished like any other option that gets scouted out. It doesn't lose to Marth's d-tilt. You can just wavedash back after the d-tilt. E.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lT-nWpdWPw#t=0m57s

People are stupid for getting hit by ICs SH uair because they literally just don't consider that option. It's just because of inexperience in the matchup tbh. People just need to play more matchups with people who know what they're doing.

Samus has amazing answers to platform camping. She can get a full charge shot, then she goes to a side platform and shoots homing missiles until the opponent has to eventually land on one or vacate the top platform. She doesn't have to commit very hard against campers because missile damage is pretty considerable and the charge missiles can knock the opponent offstage to setup for her finishers.

 

[1MachGO]

Up-b out of shield is better than you think. Many times that you do it, it is highly likely to hit, depending on the read that you have on the opponent's shield pressure, or simply if they do something laggy on your shield like an early aerial. It's harder to smash DI than people say, in practice. If there are platforms you have the option to land on them, fast fall through, or even ledgecancel. It's invincible on startup ...

WD out of shield isn't bad? You make it sound like it's barely usable. Please watch HugS or Plup in literally any matchup. WD out of shield is a bread and butter movement option for getting out of pressure, especially with Samus who has a 14 frame WD (the fastest possible WD). The vulnerable part of the wavedash is irrelevant as long as you react to your opponent's movement/pressure strings. If you do it YOLO and they read it, then you deserve to get punished like any other option that gets scouted out. It doesn't lose to Marth's d-tilt. You can just wavedash back after the d-tilt. E.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lT-nWpdWPw#t=0m57s

People are stupid for getting hit by ICs SH uair because they literally just don't consider that option. It's just because of inexperience in the matchup tbh. People just need to play more matchups with people who know what they're doing.

Samus has amazing answers to platform camping. She can get a full charge shot, then she goes to a side platform and shoots homing missiles until the opponent has to eventually land on one or vacate the top platform. She doesn't have to commit very hard against campers because missile damage is pretty considerable and the charge missiles can knock the opponent offstage to setup for her finishers.

I had already covered lots of your counter arguments in my previous statement. But I'll reiterate.

Up-b is invincible on start up. However, it does not hit until frame 5. This is why I said as long as you aren't -5 on block you are completely safe because shield is a 1 frame option. The threat of Samus's grab is nonexistent so you can just shield in case you spaced poorly. Not that that is particularly hard when you look at the "range" up-b has (http://ikneedata.com/heatmaps/oos/samus.html)

As for WD back, yeah, dtilt won't hit you, but now you are giving up stage to Marth and dtilt is a still a threat. Its not like Samus can jump in at Marth like Falco.

As for Samus's ability to mitigate platform camping, I am not totally convinced, and calling that an "amazing" answer is a bit of a stretch. Homing missiles are slow as ****. Its a 24 frame action minimum in the air (without counting the 4 frames of landing lag so 28 is more accurate) and 59 on the ground. This isn't the kind of option you should be utilizing when you are a platform's distance away and is more than punishable.

 

[Sempai]

Tier: godlike
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Tier: stronk
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
Tier: trifflin'
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
Tier: unviable
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

This. Is pretty accurate. Poor Ylink, doc, and ganon.

 

[Comet7]

pika and spacies destroy each other, but pika loses the neutral by a noticeable amount

 

[Sempai]

pika and spacies destroy each other, but pika loses the neutral by a noticeable amount

Having good hitboxes and a decent grab is important I hear.

 

[Plunder]

Pikachu trying to approach Spacies in neutral

Just kidding Pikachu owns :]

 

[Sempai]

Pikachu trying to approach Spacies in neutral

Just kidding Pikachu owns :]

Shouldn't he be overshooting that nair tho? :/
Sorry did I ruin it :O

 

[ChivalRuse]

I had already covered lots of your counter arguments in my previous statement. But I'll reiterate.

Up-b is invincible on start up. However, it does not hit until frame 5. This is why I said as long as you aren't -5 on block you are completely safe because shield is a 1 frame option. The threat of Samus's grab is nonexistent so you can just shield in case you spaced poorly. Not that that is particularly hard when you look at the "range" up-b has (http://ikneedata.com/heatmaps/oos/samus.html)

As for WD back, yeah, dtilt won't hit you, but now you are giving up stage to Marth and dtilt is a still a threat. Its not like Samus can jump in at Marth like Falco.

As for Samus's ability to mitigate platform camping, I am not totally convinced, and calling that an "amazing" answer is a bit of a stretch. Homing missiles are slow as ****. Its a 24 frame action minimum in the air (without counting the 4 frames of landing lag so 28 is more accurate) and 59 on the ground. This isn't the kind of option you should be utilizing when you are a platform's distance away and is more than punishable.

A lot of aerials are minus frames on block, especially if you do them early in your jump. Samus' grab isn't nonexistent as a threat, it's just unreliable and more read-based. But I'm fine with saying that grab isn't good enough to consider as a real option most of the time.

WD back is usually to reset and deal with their subsequent threat. Marth can't just d-tilt you across the stage forever. He is making a concession moving toward you, as he could run into your grab or an f-tilt/d-tilt (or even a dsmash). Resetting against Marth is fine because you can regroup and find the frames to box him out or regain better stage control yourself.

Missiles are slow, but the point is that the opponent can't simply camp you indefinitely as one might do to ICs or (to some degree) Peach (on Dreamland). Samus can make progress in that game state via acquiring charge shot if she doesn't already have it or set up a death trap below the platform camper with missiles. They aren't very likely to hit, but they make it difficult for the opponent to keep up the strategy forever, and you can make progress at least. Samus does have a reasonably high jump to with good aerials like uair, bair, fair, and nair for poking up through platforms.

 

[A_Reverie]

(20XX)
1.
2.
3.
4.

(S)
5.
6.
7.
8.

(A)
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

(B)
16.
17.
18.
19.

(C)
20.
21.
22.

(D)
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[Plunder]

I would honestly consider Pikachu and Samus to be dead even on the new tier list at top of A. Both seem to have the same exact viability but with different MUs and in different ways. The only thing currently to set them apart is that Pikachu has Axe who I consider a better overall player than any current Samus main (judging by Axe's Falco, Marth, Fox, and his competence with other characters)

 

[Von Klavier]

(SS):
1.
2.

(S):
3.
4.
5.

(A):
6.
7.

(A-):
8.
9.
10.

(B):
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.

(C):
17.
18.

(D):
19.
20.

(D-):
21.
22.
23.

(F):
24.
25.
26.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol not bad, I'd put jiggs in a A+ tier personally

 

[pichuplayer]

(SS):
1.
2.

(S):
3.
4.
5.

(A):
6.
7.

(A-):
8.
9.
10.

(B):
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.

(C):
17.
18.

(D):
19.
20.

(D-):
21.
22.
23.

(F):
24.
25.
26.

Bruh puff at 4th Falcon at 10th explain

 

[1MachGO]

A lot of aerials are minus frames on block, especially if you do them early in your jump. Samus' grab isn't nonexistent as a threat, it's just unreliable and more read-based. But I'm fine with saying that grab isn't good enough to consider as a real option most of the time.

WD back is usually to reset and deal with their subsequent threat. Marth can't just d-tilt you across the stage forever. He is making a concession moving toward you, as he could run into your grab or an f-tilt/d-tilt (or even a dsmash). Resetting against Marth is fine because you can regroup and find the frames to box him out or regain better stage control yourself.

Missiles are slow, but the point is that the opponent can't simply camp you indefinitely as one might do to ICs or (to some degree) Peach (on Dreamland). Samus can make progress in that game state via acquiring charge shot if she doesn't already have it or set up a death trap below the platform camper with missiles. They aren't very likely to hit, but they make it difficult for the opponent to keep up the strategy forever, and you can make progress at least. Samus does have a reasonably high jump to with good aerials like uair, bair, fair, and nair for poking up through platforms.

I feel that your counterarguments are only illustrating my previous statement: All and all, I think Samus is a character that relies too heavily on opponent error rather than the raw strength of her own tools.

No, I don't see how doing aerials early or spacing badly to get hit by up-b OoS is a legitimate point. You should play around your opponent's options, space, and do safe aerials. Someone doing a YOLO early aerial wouldn't work on any other character so it doesn't serve as a strong argument here.

The same can be said for the anti platform camping. You already pegged it when they said the missiles aren't likely to hit. If it requires the opponent to be unaware it isn't a good strategy.

And WD back might feel like a "reset" against a lesser opponent, but stage is too valuable at top level. When someone loses stage, they are being pressured, they lose options, and the player with stage hardly has to do anything to capitalize. In the case of Samus, she is losing her ability to safely fire projectiles and maneuver with WD. All the Marth has to do is run up shield or bait Samus.

 

[pichuplayer]

Sveet if you are reading this i think i got the moon and DJ nintendo to vote hope this helps

 

[Sandbag_Smasher]

Roy and Ness should be higher up the lists.

 

[-ACE-]

Roy and Ness should be higher up the lists.

Higher than Kirby? Agreed.

 

[Comet7]

Roy and Ness should be higher up the lists.

could you at least explain why instead of just posting a statement that nobody cares about

 

[Plunder]

could you at least explain why instead of just posting a statement that nobody cares about

Cause he can 4 stock any CPU lvl 9 using Ness or Roy....DUHHHH

CONFIRMED VIABLE.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[Halipeno]

I agree that Pichu is not last tier.

 

[pichuplayer]

I agree that Pichu is not last tier.

1. you mean bottom/low 2. what's your list then?

 

[1MachGO]

machgo, your dtilt example is pretty loaded. Nobody can punish a properly spaced dtilt on shield, it's part of what makes it so good. Samus at least has the fast wd oos going for her. Yeah, she's lost space but every character would have to give up that space.

Also, just because something doesn't hit doesn't mean it's a gimmick. Just having those hitboxes limits certain options and thanks to them being so slow and Samus now having a fully charged shot, it's my bey possible to follow up and punish the remaining options. (not that I would know, I don't play Samus but I'm assuming that to be the general idea)

It isn't loaded because the scenario presented isn't in a vacuum. It is presented against Samus who inherently has less answers to dtilt; not just in pressure but in neutral as well.

A ground based style means Marth is at a greater liberty to use dtilt on approach, and the fact Samus's only fast OoS option is extremely short ranged makes positioning easier. Whereas someone like Sheik might be able to grab against mediocre spacing, Samus can't respond unless Marth is basically touching her.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Today is the last day to vote! If you still haven't voted, or if you have any last minute edits, do them now!!

 

[ChivalRuse]

I feel that your counterarguments are only illustrating my previous statement: All and all, I think Samus is a character that relies too heavily on opponent error rather than the raw strength of her own tools.

No, I don't see how doing aerials early or spacing badly to get hit by up-b OoS is a legitimate point. You should play around your opponent's options, space, and do safe aerials. Someone doing a YOLO early aerial wouldn't work on any other character so it doesn't serve as a strong argument here.

The same can be said for the anti platform camping. You already pegged it when they said the missiles aren't likely to hit. If it requires the opponent to be unaware it isn't a good strategy.

And WD back might feel like a "reset" against a lesser opponent, but stage is too valuable at top level. When someone loses stage, they are being pressured, they lose options, and the player with stage hardly has to do anything to capitalize. In the case of Samus, she is losing her ability to safely fire projectiles and maneuver with WD. All the Marth has to do is run up shield or bait Samus.

I agree with most of this, especially the comment about her reliance on her opponent making errors. But I still think that ICs and Pikachu are worse because they have most of the flaws that Samus has and more.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Well, since this is the last day,(but I already voted on the google doc), but i'll post my list here.
Despite my username, I play melee and i watch it a lot. This list is based off of my very little tourney experience and watching major tourneys.
S Tier( Can win supermajors)
1.
2.( debatable with falco, )
3.
4.
A+ Tier( Can win regionals/majors and place well)
5.
6.
7.
8.
A tier( Can place at regionals/majors, but hard to win. They can do well in most tourneys)
9.
10.
11.
B Tier( They have good things going for them, but hard to win majors. Can place decently well.)
12.
13.
14.
C Tier (Very hard to do well at Big tourneys, but do well in some areas, and have flaws with them)
15.
16.
17.
18.
D tier ( Extremely hard to place at tourneys, have very little going for them)
19.
20.
21.
22.
F Tier(Don't even bother)
23.
24.
LOL TIER
25.
26.