pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
only god and sveet knows man
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Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
Spaghetti Sammy
Smash Journeyman
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Put Doc in "Bad" Tier, I ****ing dare you Sveet
eviljoeybonkers
Smash Apprentice
I already posted my Tier List and voted, but I feel that I didn't put enough detail into my thoughts on the characters. This is being based on tournament results and representation, as well as strengths and weaknesses. This tier list will be in a style similar to @Locke Robster's tier list (he did a great job, btw). So, here we go.
S Tier- These characters truly define Melee's metagame. They are near-unstoppable when mastered, and can very easily win a national.
1. Falco
- While most people go to Fox, I personally think that Falco is the best character in the game. I may be biased because I main Falco (along with Mario), but I do have my reasons. In my opinion, Falco has the best combo ability in the whole game. His supply of combo openers are nearly endless, with even his Reflector setting up a world of combo trees. His lasers allow him to approach very well, even from long distances, and applies tons of pressure on the opponent. Finally, Falco's edgeguarding game is among the best in the game, with his smash attacks, his back air, and his infamous down air spike being amazing options. His representation is also very strong with Mango and PPMD truly showing how effective Falco is. Ultimately, any weaknesses Falco has are pretty much nullified by his strengths, and he ultimately is, in my opinion, the best character in Melee.
2. Fox- This should be a given here. Fox is, by far, the most represented character in tournament play, and it's not hard to see why. He has incredible damaging and comboing ability, a plethora of viable finishers, an all-purpose move in his Reflector that can gimp and combo, quick speed, effective SHFFLs and wavedashes, and lasers that allow easy approaches (with other great neutral game options). In such a movement based game like Melee, it's undeniable that Fox is a top-tier character.
3. Marth- Marth is, bar none, the Space Animal killer. He has among the best matchups against Fox and Falco, and utterly dominates everyone below him. He has the best range in the game, and the fact that most of his attacks are disjointed make them even better. His combo and juggle game is among the best, has a long grab, dash-dance, and wavedash, various KO options, and his attacks when tipped are simply deadly. If his out of shield game wasn't so poor, he'd possibly be in first place. Also, his mains are very consistent in tournament play. Even after Ken's dominance, players such as PPMD, Mew2King, and various others often win tournaments with Marth.
4. Sheik- Ah, yes. The #1 character on the tier list until the eighth edition. While she doesn't have the representation that other top-tier characters have, Smashers such as Mew2King and Shroomed truly show how much of a threat she really is. Her down throw is the deadliest throw in the game, she has an excellent projectile in her needles, and very effective edgeguarding options. Hopefully, her representation grows.
A Tier- While these characters don't define the metagame, they tend to do very well at nationals and their strengths greatly overwhelm their weaknesses.
5. Captain Falcon- Falcon is one of the most complete characters in the game. He is near-resistant to vertical KO's, he has one of the best SHFFLs in the game, if not the best, has the fastest dashing speed, equipped with several finishers including the famous Knee of Justice, and he has by far the best moonwalk. Not to mention, his punishing game is simply deadly, and he has chain throws in his up and down throws. If he had a better neutral game and wasn't as open to chain throws, he could be higher.
6. Peach- The only reason Peach isn't higher is because of her weak ground game and ease of getting killed. Other than these weaknesses, Peach does very well against the other top tier characters, with a dominant air game, a versatile projectile in her veggies, and decent chain grabbing ability. She also has good representation, although her only true dominant player is Armada.
7. Jigglypuff- While I don't think Jigglypuff is as good as some people say she is, she's still a force to be reckoned with, as she has, by far, the best air game as well as recovery. With the wall of pain and immunity to chain grabs, Puff has some serious advantages. Unfortunately, not only does she lose to Fox, I'd say that Fox full-blown hard counters Puff. Also, her ground game is rather weak and only Hungrybox dominates with her in tournaments. But despite her flaws, Puff's strengths simply outweigh them.
8. Ice Climbers- These characters have a great presence in the meta with skills such as wobbling, the two-in-one mechanic, and a great wavedash. Players like Wobbles and Nintendude truly show how capable the Frosty Duo are as well. Too bad that Popo is worthless when Nana is KO'd, and their poor air game. Their results are somewhat polarizing with bad matchups to Peach and Ganondorf, but they do fine against most other characters.
9. Samus- Samus is one of the more underrated characters in my book. Besides her phenomenal amount of effective projectiles, Samus has one of the best recoveries in the entire game, with arguably the most options to get back to the stage. She also has a great air game as well, and very consistent mains such as Hugs and Plup (although the latter now uses Sheik). Despite her laggy grab and ease of upper blast line KO's, Samus is great. And, by the way, who else could do the Super Wavedash?
B Tier- These characters, while they have their flaws, have lots of potential in the current meta. I wouldn't be surprised to see them rise up soon.
10. Dr. Mario
- The only things that Dr. Mario struggles with are range, his abysmal recovery, and his presence in the meta. In everything else, he's great. Has a great SHFFL and wavedash, a versatile projectile in his Megavitamins, and great combo ability. But ever since Shroomed switched to Sheik, things have been looking a bit bleak for the Doc. But if someone comes along and shows what Doc is capable of, he could be a big threat.
11. Mario- Mario, in my opinion, is the most underrated character in the game. I'm definetly biased because I main him (along with Falco), but Mario has some extreme potential that just hasn't been seen yet. He has one of the best combo abilities, the best gimping tool in the game with his cape, a chain grab down throw, an effective wavedash and SHFFL, and he is very easy to master. Sure, his killing isn't the best, but his pros are much better than his cons. The reason he's lower than Doc is because Doc has a much easier time killing. Mario's potential can be discovered soon. Just look at two other certain characters (they'll show up later).
12. Luigi- The Green Machine has some good representation, but his true potential has yet to be discovered. Luigi's strengths are literally a double-edged sword: he has the best wavedash in the game, several low-lag aerials, and great combo ability, while he has an awful SHFFL, poor air speed, and predictable recovery. But with more development in Luigi's meta, he can quickly become an efficient fighting force.
13. Pikachu- I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, but I think Pikachu is the most overrated character in the game. While Axe has really shown that Pikachu is absolutely viable in the meta, Pikachu isn't as good as people are saying it is, as it has a poor approach, terrible range, poor SHFFL and wavedash, and not much representation outside of Axe. However, Pikachu is still an absolutely viable character, as it has the strongest up smash in the game, great speed, a phenomenal recovery, and the notorious semi-spike in its up aerial. While I don't think Pikachu is as good as people say, if Axe can keep up his play and another great Pikachu comes along, I will certainly eat my words.
14. Yoshi- Probably the biggest leap in the tier list. While Yoshi has his flaws, with his double jump being his only recovery, and his inability to jump out of shield, aMSa has really proven to everybody that Yoshi is indeed, viable for competitive play. His phenomenal 5th place finish at Apex 2015 really made me a believer not only in aMSa, but also in Yoshi himself. Yoshi's great aerial game, super armor in his recovery, great down smash, and one of the best projectiles in the game in his Egg Throw, I support Yoshi. Just like Pikachu, if Yoshi can get another great player and aMSa keeps up his outstanding play, Yoshi will absoultely be higher.
C Tier- These characters aren't necessarily bad, but they have serious flaws that stop them from going higher. Won't go so far in nationals.
15. Ganondorf- The King of Evil certainly has his strong points: He has the best meteor smash in the game, decent chain grabbing, and extreme power. However, with a terrible neutral game, a big target for chain grabs and combos, and an exploitable recovery, Ganondorf doesn't have the best tools to go very far. He also has dedicated mains, but they haven't had enough success to get Ganondorf higher. However, he's very fun to play with! And at least he's MUCH better than what he would become in Melee's successor...
16. Link- The Hero of Time may have been buffed from Smash 64, but he still has some big problems. His weaknesses are big, as he is open to combos and has a somewhat poor recovery. However, he has some strong points too, including his various projectiles and efficiency at edgeguarding. Overall, Link is the character where I feel has an equal amount of pros and cons, and a decent playerbase, although not really successful.
17. Donkey Kong- Donkey Kong, like Link, has an equal amount of pros and cons. The bad include his poor vertical recovery and ease in being comboed, but the good include great power and range with an excellent horizontal recovery. Ultimately, while poor on defense, he excells on offense, and while his playerbase isn't large, they are very dedicated and have had success, like Green Ranger. He's also very fun to play as, like Ganondorf.
18. Young Link- Probably the first character that I can truly say is mediocre. While he has several projectiles, a great SHFFL and a good wavedash, his recovery is suprisingly easy to edgeguard and his KOing potential is actually very poor. He might have some potential, but BARELY anybody uses Young Link, sadly. While Axe situationally uses him, it's just not enough.
D Tier- These characters are generally poor. While not complete garbage like the next tier, it's not really worth playing as these characters, as they're just not viable.
19. Mewtwo- The first character that I can actually say is bad. While he has great and powerful throws, an amazing recovery, and a great wavedash, Mewtwo's character build flaws are severe. He's tall, light, slow, and floaty, which not only makes him open to combos, but VERY easy to kill. He also has trouble with racking up damage and killing outside of his throws, and moves such as Disable and Confusion are relatively useless. He also has poor representation, as there just aren't enough players like Mew2King or Taj.
20. Mr. Game & Watch- Game & Watch has extreme power in his moves, two of which can be one hit kills (Judge and Oil Panic), but that's really it, as Game & Watch has a severe lack in defense. Outside of his infamous shield, he has very high hitstun and can't L-cancel some of his aerial attacks. Sure, his recovery is alright, but his offense also has a problem, as he is very, very predictable. Game & Watch also has a puny playerbase in tournament play, although his players certainly have talent. GimR and Qerb really dedicate to him.
21. Ness- I feel so bad for Ness. While his throws are great, that's really all he has. His range is literally pitiful, his recovery is easily the worst in the game, and he has an awful SHFFL due to his floatness. Ness is just a strange character to use and while there have been innovations in his metagame, they have never been applied in combat, even with his Yo-Yo glitch tricks. At least he has a beautiful victory theme, but unfortunately, a competitive Ness player won't hear it often.
22. Roy- Roy is literally the polar opposite of Marth: the sweetspot is in the center of his sword, the 3rd part of Double Edge Dance meteors when pointed up, where Dancing Blade meteors when pointed down, and the fact that Marth is top tier and Roy is god awful. Seriously. Roy having the sweetspot in the center of his sword hurts him a lot, as he can't properly space. He's also an easy target for combos and has lots of trouble KOing opponents, and his moves have lots of lag. Not to mention, his recovery sucks. I don't know why people say Roy has potential, because everyone who played really gave it their all out there. For pete's sake, he loses to Kirby!
F Tier- These characters are complete and total garbage. They will NEVER have their metagames develop, and I suggest you pick another character to play as.
23. Zelda- TERRIBLE character. Truly one of the absolute worst. Just like Mewtwo, Zelda is tall, slow, light, and floaty, making her easy to combo and kill. She also has the worst wavedash in the game, an abysmal projectile in Din's Fire, she's just awful. Outside of her Lightning Kicks, she can't KO, and even those require sweetspots. You know what, I don't see how anyone could play Zelda over Sheik unless they say that Zelda has a better recovery, and even that can be edgehogged.
24. Kirby - Ah, Kirby. You probably suffered the biggest nerf in the history of Super Smash Bros. Hell, it was to the point where it felt like you got zero buffs whatsoever. Even your victory theme summed up the character: awful. While I don't think Kirby is as bad as the characters below him, he has borderline nothing except for Kirbycide, Swallowcide, up tilt, and that adorable taunt. At least Kirby's so cute. HIIIIIII! But really, Triple R is the only player that keeps Kirby somewhat relevant, but that's because he's so good that he can make a crappy character look great.
25. Pichu- A lot of Smashers think that Pichu should move out of Bottom Tier, even Mew2King. Well, it really shouldn't. Pichu still sucks, and sucks hard. It has the worst range in the game, the worst survivability, one of the worst KO potential, and of course, the infamous recoil damage. There are literally no redeeming qualities to Pichu's weaknesses, and barely anyone except for Mew2King uses it at a competitive level. Sorry Pichu, but you're terrible, and will forever be terrible.
26. Bowser- In such a movement based game like Melee, there is little doubt that Bowser is the worst character in the game. The only thing Bowser has is excellent power and up-b out of shield, yet the former is extremely plagued by lag and the latter is very punishable. Bowser is literally to Melee what Ganondorf is in Brawl: attacks with massive lag, vulnerable to chain grabs and combos to the point where they can zero-death him outright, arguably the worst SHFFL in the game, a short and slow wavedash, a slow, predictable recovery... Bowser is simply the worst character in Melee. I'd even say that EVERY FIGHTER has an advantage against Bowser. While DJ Nintendo can make Bowser look amazing, it doesn't really make a difference. Bowser is still hopelessly outmatched.
And that's my tier list. As it turned out, I accidentally posted this before I finished, LOL. These are just my personal thoughts.
EDIT: I moved Captain Falcon to A Tier, but he's at the top of A Tier to compensate. While he's not as good as the S Tier characters, I still think he's pretty damn good.
S Tier- These characters truly define Melee's metagame. They are near-unstoppable when mastered, and can very easily win a national.
1. Falco
- While most people go to Fox, I personally think that Falco is the best character in the game. I may be biased because I main Falco (along with Mario), but I do have my reasons. In my opinion, Falco has the best combo ability in the whole game. His supply of combo openers are nearly endless, with even his Reflector setting up a world of combo trees. His lasers allow him to approach very well, even from long distances, and applies tons of pressure on the opponent. Finally, Falco's edgeguarding game is among the best in the game, with his smash attacks, his back air, and his infamous down air spike being amazing options. His representation is also very strong with Mango and PPMD truly showing how effective Falco is. Ultimately, any weaknesses Falco has are pretty much nullified by his strengths, and he ultimately is, in my opinion, the best character in Melee.2. Fox
- This should be a given here. Fox is, by far, the most represented character in tournament play, and it's not hard to see why. He has incredible damaging and comboing ability, a plethora of viable finishers, an all-purpose move in his Reflector that can gimp and combo, quick speed, effective SHFFLs and wavedashes, and lasers that allow easy approaches (with other great neutral game options). In such a movement based game like Melee, it's undeniable that Fox is a top-tier character.3. Marth
- Marth is, bar none, the Space Animal killer. He has among the best matchups against Fox and Falco, and utterly dominates everyone below him. He has the best range in the game, and the fact that most of his attacks are disjointed make them even better. His combo and juggle game is among the best, has a long grab, dash-dance, and wavedash, various KO options, and his attacks when tipped are simply deadly. If his out of shield game wasn't so poor, he'd possibly be in first place. Also, his mains are very consistent in tournament play. Even after Ken's dominance, players such as PPMD, Mew2King, and various others often win tournaments with Marth.4. Sheik
- Ah, yes. The #1 character on the tier list until the eighth edition. While she doesn't have the representation that other top-tier characters have, Smashers such as Mew2King and Shroomed truly show how much of a threat she really is. Her down throw is the deadliest throw in the game, she has an excellent projectile in her needles, and very effective edgeguarding options. Hopefully, her representation grows.A Tier- While these characters don't define the metagame, they tend to do very well at nationals and their strengths greatly overwhelm their weaknesses.
5. Captain Falcon
- Falcon is one of the most complete characters in the game. He is near-resistant to vertical KO's, he has one of the best SHFFLs in the game, if not the best, has the fastest dashing speed, equipped with several finishers including the famous Knee of Justice, and he has by far the best moonwalk. Not to mention, his punishing game is simply deadly, and he has chain throws in his up and down throws. If he had a better neutral game and wasn't as open to chain throws, he could be higher.6. Peach
- The only reason Peach isn't higher is because of her weak ground game and ease of getting killed. Other than these weaknesses, Peach does very well against the other top tier characters, with a dominant air game, a versatile projectile in her veggies, and decent chain grabbing ability. She also has good representation, although her only true dominant player is Armada.7. Jigglypuff
- While I don't think Jigglypuff is as good as some people say she is, she's still a force to be reckoned with, as she has, by far, the best air game as well as recovery. With the wall of pain and immunity to chain grabs, Puff has some serious advantages. Unfortunately, not only does she lose to Fox, I'd say that Fox full-blown hard counters Puff. Also, her ground game is rather weak and only Hungrybox dominates with her in tournaments. But despite her flaws, Puff's strengths simply outweigh them.8. Ice Climbers
- These characters have a great presence in the meta with skills such as wobbling, the two-in-one mechanic, and a great wavedash. Players like Wobbles and Nintendude truly show how capable the Frosty Duo are as well. Too bad that Popo is worthless when Nana is KO'd, and their poor air game. Their results are somewhat polarizing with bad matchups to Peach and Ganondorf, but they do fine against most other characters.9. Samus
- Samus is one of the more underrated characters in my book. Besides her phenomenal amount of effective projectiles, Samus has one of the best recoveries in the entire game, with arguably the most options to get back to the stage. She also has a great air game as well, and very consistent mains such as Hugs and Plup (although the latter now uses Sheik). Despite her laggy grab and ease of upper blast line KO's, Samus is great. And, by the way, who else could do the Super Wavedash?B Tier- These characters, while they have their flaws, have lots of potential in the current meta. I wouldn't be surprised to see them rise up soon.
10. Dr. Mario
- The only things that Dr. Mario struggles with are range, his abysmal recovery, and his presence in the meta. In everything else, he's great. Has a great SHFFL and wavedash, a versatile projectile in his Megavitamins, and great combo ability. But ever since Shroomed switched to Sheik, things have been looking a bit bleak for the Doc. But if someone comes along and shows what Doc is capable of, he could be a big threat.11. Mario
- Mario, in my opinion, is the most underrated character in the game. I'm definetly biased because I main him (along with Falco), but Mario has some extreme potential that just hasn't been seen yet. He has one of the best combo abilities, the best gimping tool in the game with his cape, a chain grab down throw, an effective wavedash and SHFFL, and he is very easy to master. Sure, his killing isn't the best, but his pros are much better than his cons. The reason he's lower than Doc is because Doc has a much easier time killing. Mario's potential can be discovered soon. Just look at two other certain characters (they'll show up later).12. Luigi
- The Green Machine has some good representation, but his true potential has yet to be discovered. Luigi's strengths are literally a double-edged sword: he has the best wavedash in the game, several low-lag aerials, and great combo ability, while he has an awful SHFFL, poor air speed, and predictable recovery. But with more development in Luigi's meta, he can quickly become an efficient fighting force.13. Pikachu
- I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, but I think Pikachu is the most overrated character in the game. While Axe has really shown that Pikachu is absolutely viable in the meta, Pikachu isn't as good as people are saying it is, as it has a poor approach, terrible range, poor SHFFL and wavedash, and not much representation outside of Axe. However, Pikachu is still an absolutely viable character, as it has the strongest up smash in the game, great speed, a phenomenal recovery, and the notorious semi-spike in its up aerial. While I don't think Pikachu is as good as people say, if Axe can keep up his play and another great Pikachu comes along, I will certainly eat my words.14. Yoshi
- Probably the biggest leap in the tier list. While Yoshi has his flaws, with his double jump being his only recovery, and his inability to jump out of shield, aMSa has really proven to everybody that Yoshi is indeed, viable for competitive play. His phenomenal 5th place finish at Apex 2015 really made me a believer not only in aMSa, but also in Yoshi himself. Yoshi's great aerial game, super armor in his recovery, great down smash, and one of the best projectiles in the game in his Egg Throw, I support Yoshi. Just like Pikachu, if Yoshi can get another great player and aMSa keeps up his outstanding play, Yoshi will absoultely be higher.C Tier- These characters aren't necessarily bad, but they have serious flaws that stop them from going higher. Won't go so far in nationals.
15. Ganondorf
- The King of Evil certainly has his strong points: He has the best meteor smash in the game, decent chain grabbing, and extreme power. However, with a terrible neutral game, a big target for chain grabs and combos, and an exploitable recovery, Ganondorf doesn't have the best tools to go very far. He also has dedicated mains, but they haven't had enough success to get Ganondorf higher. However, he's very fun to play with! And at least he's MUCH better than what he would become in Melee's successor... 16. Link
- The Hero of Time may have been buffed from Smash 64, but he still has some big problems. His weaknesses are big, as he is open to combos and has a somewhat poor recovery. However, he has some strong points too, including his various projectiles and efficiency at edgeguarding. Overall, Link is the character where I feel has an equal amount of pros and cons, and a decent playerbase, although not really successful.17. Donkey Kong
- Donkey Kong, like Link, has an equal amount of pros and cons. The bad include his poor vertical recovery and ease in being comboed, but the good include great power and range with an excellent horizontal recovery. Ultimately, while poor on defense, he excells on offense, and while his playerbase isn't large, they are very dedicated and have had success, like Green Ranger. He's also very fun to play as, like Ganondorf.18. Young Link
- Probably the first character that I can truly say is mediocre. While he has several projectiles, a great SHFFL and a good wavedash, his recovery is suprisingly easy to edgeguard and his KOing potential is actually very poor. He might have some potential, but BARELY anybody uses Young Link, sadly. While Axe situationally uses him, it's just not enough.D Tier- These characters are generally poor. While not complete garbage like the next tier, it's not really worth playing as these characters, as they're just not viable.
19. Mewtwo
- The first character that I can actually say is bad. While he has great and powerful throws, an amazing recovery, and a great wavedash, Mewtwo's character build flaws are severe. He's tall, light, slow, and floaty, which not only makes him open to combos, but VERY easy to kill. He also has trouble with racking up damage and killing outside of his throws, and moves such as Disable and Confusion are relatively useless. He also has poor representation, as there just aren't enough players like Mew2King or Taj.20. Mr. Game & Watch
- Game & Watch has extreme power in his moves, two of which can be one hit kills (Judge and Oil Panic), but that's really it, as Game & Watch has a severe lack in defense. Outside of his infamous shield, he has very high hitstun and can't L-cancel some of his aerial attacks. Sure, his recovery is alright, but his offense also has a problem, as he is very, very predictable. Game & Watch also has a puny playerbase in tournament play, although his players certainly have talent. GimR and Qerb really dedicate to him.21. Ness
- I feel so bad for Ness. While his throws are great, that's really all he has. His range is literally pitiful, his recovery is easily the worst in the game, and he has an awful SHFFL due to his floatness. Ness is just a strange character to use and while there have been innovations in his metagame, they have never been applied in combat, even with his Yo-Yo glitch tricks. At least he has a beautiful victory theme, but unfortunately, a competitive Ness player won't hear it often.22. Roy
- Roy is literally the polar opposite of Marth: the sweetspot is in the center of his sword, the 3rd part of Double Edge Dance meteors when pointed up, where Dancing Blade meteors when pointed down, and the fact that Marth is top tier and Roy is god awful. Seriously. Roy having the sweetspot in the center of his sword hurts him a lot, as he can't properly space. He's also an easy target for combos and has lots of trouble KOing opponents, and his moves have lots of lag. Not to mention, his recovery sucks. I don't know why people say Roy has potential, because everyone who played really gave it their all out there. For pete's sake, he loses to Kirby!F Tier- These characters are complete and total garbage. They will NEVER have their metagames develop, and I suggest you pick another character to play as.
23. Zelda
- TERRIBLE character. Truly one of the absolute worst. Just like Mewtwo, Zelda is tall, slow, light, and floaty, making her easy to combo and kill. She also has the worst wavedash in the game, an abysmal projectile in Din's Fire, she's just awful. Outside of her Lightning Kicks, she can't KO, and even those require sweetspots. You know what, I don't see how anyone could play Zelda over Sheik unless they say that Zelda has a better recovery, and even that can be edgehogged.24. Kirby
- Ah, Kirby. You probably suffered the biggest nerf in the history of Super Smash Bros. Hell, it was to the point where it felt like you got zero buffs whatsoever. Even your victory theme summed up the character: awful. While I don't think Kirby is as bad as the characters below him, he has borderline nothing except for Kirbycide, Swallowcide, up tilt, and that adorable taunt. At least Kirby's so cute. HIIIIIII! But really, Triple R is the only player that keeps Kirby somewhat relevant, but that's because he's so good that he can make a crappy character look great.25. Pichu
- A lot of Smashers think that Pichu should move out of Bottom Tier, even Mew2King. Well, it really shouldn't. Pichu still sucks, and sucks hard. It has the worst range in the game, the worst survivability, one of the worst KO potential, and of course, the infamous recoil damage. There are literally no redeeming qualities to Pichu's weaknesses, and barely anyone except for Mew2King uses it at a competitive level. Sorry Pichu, but you're terrible, and will forever be terrible.26. Bowser
- In such a movement based game like Melee, there is little doubt that Bowser is the worst character in the game. The only thing Bowser has is excellent power and up-b out of shield, yet the former is extremely plagued by lag and the latter is very punishable. Bowser is literally to Melee what Ganondorf is in Brawl: attacks with massive lag, vulnerable to chain grabs and combos to the point where they can zero-death him outright, arguably the worst SHFFL in the game, a short and slow wavedash, a slow, predictable recovery... Bowser is simply the worst character in Melee. I'd even say that EVERY FIGHTER has an advantage against Bowser. While DJ Nintendo can make Bowser look amazing, it doesn't really make a difference. Bowser is still hopelessly outmatched.And that's my tier list. As it turned out, I accidentally posted this before I finished, LOL. These are just my personal thoughts.
EDIT: I moved Captain Falcon to A Tier, but he's at the top of A Tier to compensate. While he's not as good as the S Tier characters, I still think he's pretty damn good.
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vexoskeleton
Smash Apprentice
Falcon definitely doesn't belong in the tier where "They are near-unstoppable when mastered, and can very easily win a national."I already posted my Tier List and voted, but I feel that I didn't put enough detail into my thoughts on the characters. This is being based on tournament results and representation, as well as strengths and weaknesses. This tier list will be in a style similar to @Locke Robster's tier list (he did a great job, btw). So, here we go.
S Tier- These characters truly define Melee's metagame. They are near-unstoppable when mastered, and can very easily win a national.
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Captain Falcon
A Tier- While these characters don't define the metagame, they tend to do very well at nationals and their strengths greatly overwhelm their weaknesses.
6. Peach
7. Jigglypuff
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
B Tier- These characters, while they have their flaws, have lots of potential in the current meta. I wouldn't be surprised to see them rise up soon.
10. Dr. Mario
11. Mario
12. Luigi
13. Pikachu
14. Yoshi
C Tier- These characters aren't necessarily bad, but they have serious flaws that stop them from going higher. Won't go so far in nationals.
15. Ganondorf
16. Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Young Link
D Tier- These characters are generally poor. While not complete garbage like the next tier, it's not really worth playing as these characters, as they're just not viable.
19. Mewtwo
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Ness
22. Roy
F Tier- These characters are complete and total garbage. They will NEVER have their metagames develop, and I suggest you pick another character to play as.
23. Zelda
24. Kirby
25. Pichu
26. Bowser
And that's my tier list. As it turned out, I accidentally posted this before I finished, LOL. These are just my personal thoughts.
The last time falcon did well at a super big tourney with tons of great players was probably apex 2013 when hax got 7th. The character is no where near the tier of the top 4 and definitely not better than puff or peach, atleast according to history. He simply just has a horrible recovery and his grounded options are pretty lack luster when compared to all the other top tiers except puff who has 5 jumps. Not only that but EVERYONE plays against falcon on a consistent basis, people probably generally have a better idea of how to play against falcon than they do sheik because so many people play him casually that he doesn't even have the edge of his opponent not having great knowledge of how to play against the character since he is also fairly linear in his play. We've even see shroomed place better with doc than hax has with falcon when hax was generally considered at worst just as good as shroomed.
The 20x crew has the discipline to push falcon to his peak but we've yet to see if even they can take him to a peak farther than hax.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Falcon over jiggs and peach is a little off.
So is mario over pika and luigi.
So is mario over pika and luigi.
S2J has been top 20 at CEO, EVO, and Apex this year, got 4th at BAM7 (a national), 2nd at Super Nebulous 3 (regeonal), and got 9th at Press Start. I don't think that any ICs player havs made as notable placements so far 2015. I still think Falcon should be below Jiggs and Peach at the moment (not ICs), but his movement is so good (if used correctly) that I feel he will eventually surpass Peach and Jiggs.
That's still to be determined in coming years, though, so it shouldn't effect the 2015 tier list.
Plunder
Smash Ace
Yes your assesment of Falcon and his placement is just off and quite bizzare. But hey to each their own....just....you know Peach, Jiggs, and ICs always place much higher and are just all around better characters at a high level currently.I already posted my Tier List and voted, but I feel that I didn't put enough detail into my thoughts on the characters. This is being based on tournament results and representation, as well as strengths and weaknesses. This tier list will be in a style similar to @Locke Robster's tier list (he did a great job, btw). So, here we go.
S Tier- These characters truly define Melee's metagame. They are near-unstoppable when mastered, and can very easily win a national.
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Captain Falcon
A Tier- While these characters don't define the metagame, they tend to do very well at nationals and their strengths greatly overwhelm their weaknesses.
6. Peach
7. Jigglypuff
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
B Tier- These characters, while they have their flaws, have lots of potential in the current meta. I wouldn't be surprised to see them rise up soon.
10. Dr. Mario
11. Mario
12. Luigi
13. Pikachu
14. Yoshi
C Tier- These characters aren't necessarily bad, but they have serious flaws that stop them from going higher. Won't go so far in nationals.
15. Ganondorf
16. Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Young Link
D Tier- These characters are generally poor. While not complete garbage like the next tier, it's not really worth playing as these characters, as they're just not viable.
19. Mewtwo
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Ness
22. Roy
F Tier- These characters are complete and total garbage. They will NEVER have their metagames develop, and I suggest you pick another character to play as.
23. Zelda
24. Kirby
25. Pichu
26. Bowser
And that's my tier list. As it turned out, I accidentally posted this before I finished, LOL. These are just my personal thoughts.
Hmmmm....Spak - Falcon surpassing Jiggs or Peach I don't think will ever happen, he suffers too greatly under any pressure in the air or on the ground, get stuck in shield, and is so easy to combo most low tiers even have easy combos on him. He's also really easy to gimp off stage for any of the characters.
WinterShorts
The best NEOH Yoshi
Well if i still have time to make a tier list (and if anyone cares)
SS-Tier:
S-Tier:
A-Tier:
B-Tier:
C-Tier:
D-Tier:
F-Tier:
I respect Mewtwo a little bit higher as a character considering his combo game against Fox or Falco. His up-throw makes for a good start against them. But any positive beyond that is a little ridiculous to acknowledge. Other than that potential bias, I agree with what everyone else says.
SS-Tier:
S-Tier:
A-Tier:
B-Tier:
C-Tier:
D-Tier:
F-Tier:
I respect Mewtwo a little bit higher as a character considering his combo game against Fox or Falco. His up-throw makes for a good start against them. But any positive beyond that is a little ridiculous to acknowledge. Other than that potential bias, I agree with what everyone else says.
vexoskeleton
Smash Apprentice
Fly got 2nd at press start, chu got 7th at evo, Nintendude got 9th at apex and these are all just placings this year which surpass any falcon placing
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Wish wobbles was at every national. He's really something and I don't think any climbers main has surpassed his peak performance.
N0ne got 9th at Get On My Level, Gahtzu got 5th at Aftershock, and Wizzy got 3rd at Apex.
eviljoeybonkers
Smash Apprentice
Okay, I will say that Falcon isn't the most consistent at tournaments, and he has some flaws. The biggest reason why I ranked him so high is how much of a threat he is in combat. He has the fastest dash, can chain throw with his up and down throws, and has amazing combo ability and possibly the best SHFFL in the game.
So, while it may seem controversial to rank Falcon at 5th, if a truly great Falcon comes along yet again, I think his spot would finally be justified. We'll just have to wait and see if he could show us his moves.
So, while it may seem controversial to rank Falcon at 5th, if a truly great Falcon comes along yet again, I think his spot would finally be justified. We'll just have to wait and see if he could show us his moves.
vexoskeleton
Smash Apprentice
wizz got 3rd in 64 unless you meant 33rd. 9th at GOML '15 isn't notable on an international level and the best player at aftershock was axe. None of those placings are as notable as the ones I mentioned.
eviljoeybonkers
Smash Apprentice
I agree. That 2nd place finish at EVO 2013 was simply incredible to see.
Plunder
Smash Ace
C'mon now Spak there's some wrong info in your placings and those tournaments weren't as stacked or equal as any IC placings in the past and present.
Wobbles would also be the best Mario user at any given national, even better than dedicated mains like A Rookie and KT895. It's a real shame his EVO 2015 Mario run wasn't streamed at all....
Wobbles would also be the best Mario user at any given national, even better than dedicated mains like A Rookie and KT895. It's a real shame his EVO 2015 Mario run wasn't streamed at all....
It doesn't matter what he can do or how deadly you think he can be....when he's too busy being in constant histun and within combo range because of his falling speed. No fast aerial move to escape combos, no real OoS options, slow smash attacks, a bottom tier recovery, large hurtbox....
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Thor
Smash Champion
At least you have the bottom 3 in order [Bowser is awful and I think Pichu's MU vs ICs might actually be worse than Bowser's vs Sheik... Kirby has it very marginally better, although the difference is usually trivial].I already posted my Tier List and voted, but I feel that I didn't put enough detail into my thoughts on the characters. This is being based on tournament results and representation, as well as strengths and weaknesses. This tier list will be in a style similar to @Locke Robster's tier list (he did a great job, btw). So, here we go.
S Tier- These characters truly define Melee's metagame. They are near-unstoppable when mastered, and can very easily win a national.
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Captain Falcon
A Tier- While these characters don't define the metagame, they tend to do very well at nationals and their strengths greatly overwhelm their weaknesses.
6. Peach
7. Jigglypuff
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
B Tier- These characters, while they have their flaws, have lots of potential in the current meta. I wouldn't be surprised to see them rise up soon.
10. Dr. Mario
11. Mario
12. Luigi
13. Pikachu
14. Yoshi
C Tier- These characters aren't necessarily bad, but they have serious flaws that stop them from going higher. Won't go so far in nationals.
15. Ganondorf
16. Link
17. Donkey Kong
18. Young Link
D Tier- These characters are generally poor. While not complete garbage like the next tier, it's not really worth playing as these characters, as they're just not viable.
19. Mewtwo
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Ness
22. Roy
F Tier- These characters are complete and total garbage. They will NEVER have their metagames develop, and I suggest you pick another character to play as.
23. Zelda
24. Kirby
25. Pichu
26. Bowser
And that's my tier list. As it turned out, I accidentally posted this before I finished, LOL. These are just my personal thoughts.
Link beats Samus [fun fact! he outcamps her, has incredible moves to kill her easily, and it's one of the few MUs where's not automatically dead offstage], so while her projectiles are quite useful, they are somewhat easy to clank out. Samus's air game is also EXTREMELY awkward, even though nair bair and dair are all amazing [and uair/fair from ledge is decent].
I'm one of the few who agrees with you that Link is better than YL, but it's worth noting that Link has quite poor OoS options outside of shield dropping [up+b is his fastest at frame 9]. YL's are slightly better, but not by that much.
Falcon at 5 seems wrong to me [especially with that tier heading, should move to A at least if nothing else], but I'm not saying it's impossible, merely that it doesn't seem well supported right now.
What could possibly prompt you to state that Bowser is better than Roy???? Roy has an amazing dash dance, incredible grab range [can CG spacies!], and low lag aerials, while Bowser has none of these things. The only good moves Bowser has are side+b [gimmicky, and Roy has a gimmicky but decent side+b too], up+b [amazing, but the only thing], and bair/fair [good as edgeguarding, but highly questionable at best onstage]. I guess Bowser is more durable [sort of], but I don't understand what could prompt you to move Bowser out of F tier [as I do not think durability is a sufficient reason to move him up].Well if i still have time to make a tier list (and if anyone cares)
SS-Tier:
S-Tier:
A-Tier:
B-Tier:
C-Tier:
D-Tier:
F-Tier:
I respect Mewtwo a little bit higher as a character considering his combo game against Fox or Falco. His up-throw makes for a good start against them. But any positive beyond that is a little ridiculous to acknowledge. Other than that potential bias, I agree with what everyone else says.
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WinterShorts
The best NEOH Yoshi
Lol umm... I guess when I thought of Roy, I thought there was hardly a reason to pick him over Marth, so I was thinking he barely having a purpose. Sure he can, like you said, CG species, amazing dash dance, etc. but so can Marth. It's also the fact Bowser has at least seen great representation with DJNintendo. Not like there's much of a quality difference between the two characters anyway.
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Sorry, I got it from the Wiki. Apparently a Wizzy fanboy frequents the Wiki.
Anyways, Uair and Bair are both quick and even Falcon be can be combined fodder to some characters, a good Falcon can also combo everyone else pretty hard.
EDIT: Corrected "it" to "Falcon".
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
Yoshi and pika above Ganon any where and you got a good listWell if i still have time to make a tier list (and if anyone cares)
SS-Tier:
S-Tier:
A-Tier:
B-Tier:
C-Tier:
D-Tier:
F-Tier:
I respect Mewtwo a little bit higher as a character considering his combo game against Fox or Falco. His up-throw makes for a good start against them. But any positive beyond that is a little ridiculous to acknowledge. Other than that potential bias, I agree with what everyone else says.
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
bruh Doc is not bad in fact i have a friend who mains Doc and went to a local and got 3rd and thinks Doc is top 9 hope this helps along with the fact that to me Doc is 11-12
DeepDish
Smash Apprentice
No, I'm saying it's in Dr. Mario's favour. I play this matchup all the time with the 2 best Samus players in Ontario and they've decided to pick up secondaries when I play them in tournament sets. (Sorry Lockon if you're reading this. Omni and Sedimentary Rock are better.)
If you can provide solid evidence as to why it is "probably even," then I might be less inclined to disagree with you.
Unless you're saying Mario/Samus is even haha. Then ignore me.
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WinterShorts
The best NEOH Yoshi
Above Ganon? I mean I thought I've seen more professional Ganondorfs before, more so than Yoshis and Pikachus.
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
yes most likely you have but burh Ganon sucks against the likes of Fox Falco Marth you know guys like that also you put him at 9th 11-13 sure but ninth? no. Pika and Yoshi have more potential against top tier characters and can deal with them better than Gannon could in MOST situations i think Gannon is high tier i really do but in the current meta i don't think he is better than Pika or yoshi.....or just Pika
Plunder
Smash Ace
[
There are no actual local Ganon players, and I actually was going to use my G&W for the friendly until I heard him talking about Ganon. Told him "Would you like to MM? Your Pichu vs my Ganon?" he said "oh man yea; easy money Pichu destroys Ganon, he's too fast for him. $5...let's go"
He got 3 stocked and then 4 stocked. The saltiest I've ever seen anyone, left without even saying another word to me. I heard the guy legitimately thinks Pichu isn't much worse than Pikachu though, guess that explains the salt.
Doesn't have any bearing on a tier list but I just played a Pichu main recently who had a very very low opinion of Ganon. (yea I was surprised too, but he apparently loves Pichu).
There are no actual local Ganon players, and I actually was going to use my G&W for the friendly until I heard him talking about Ganon. Told him "Would you like to MM? Your Pichu vs my Ganon?" he said "oh man yea; easy money Pichu destroys Ganon, he's too fast for him. $5...let's go"
He got 3 stocked and then 4 stocked. The saltiest I've ever seen anyone, left without even saying another word to me. I heard the guy legitimately thinks Pichu isn't much worse than Pikachu though, guess that explains the salt.
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WinterShorts
The best NEOH Yoshi
Did he know how to wavedash, l-cancel, or have any general melee match-up information? I mean, to say Pichu's speed only beats Ganondorf overall seems kind of a noobish perspective.[
Doesn't have any bearing on a tier list but I just played a Pichu main recently who had a very very low opinion of Ganon. (yea I was surprised too, but he apparently loves Pichu).
There are no actual local Ganon players, and I actually was going to use my G&W for the friendly until I heard him talking about Ganon. Told him "Would you like to MM? Your Pichu vs my Ganon?" he said "oh man yea; easy money Pichu destroys Ganon, he's too fast for him. $5...let's go"
He got 3 stocked and then 4 stocked. The saltiest I've ever seen anyone, left without even saying another word to me. I heard the guy legitimately thinks Pichu isn't much worse than Pikachu though, guess that explains the salt.
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
i'm a pichu main and i know that Ganon beats Pichu every time i love Pichu as a character and as a pokemon but he sucks[
Doesn't have any bearing on a tier list but I just played a Pichu main recently who had a very very low opinion of Ganon. (yea I was surprised too, but he apparently loves Pichu).
There are no actual local Ganon players, and I actually was going to use my G&W for the friendly until I heard him talking about Ganon. Told him "Would you like to MM? Your Pichu vs my Ganon?" he said "oh man yea; easy money Pichu destroys Ganon, he's too fast for him. $5...let's go"
He got 3 stocked and then 4 stocked. The saltiest I've ever seen anyone, left without even saying another word to me. I heard the guy legitimately thinks Pichu isn't much worse than Pikachu though, guess that explains the salt.
most likely a noob based on how he described it Dat salt
Plunder
Smash Ace
Yes he was quite competent, had been playing for a year and a half he said. He had just never played a good Ganon before (at least I assume) so all his thoughts on the MU were theoretical. His mistake was thinking speed beats range always. He also did not know that Ganon actually has fast moves that completely invalidate any approach Pichu could hope for; Ganon's Uair is frame 6, Nair frame 7, both side B and Down B can beat a lot of Pichu's approaches, F tilts also (frame 9), Dash attack beats out a lot of Pichu's stuff too and it's frame 7, Bair is frame 10.....it destroys Pichu. Ganon can face backwards on the edge and Dair as Pichu recovers, his whole body becomes one big plank of disjointed hitbox that always catches Pichu's enlarged Up-B hurtbox.
Also Ganon can CG the crap out of Pichu, and I didn't even abuse that.
I very rarely play Ganon, maybe I just picked up on him quick but I don't doubt others could demolish a far more experienced Pichu as well. You'd have to have a really strong dash dance game to beat a Ganon in that MU.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Ftilt should be frame 9 and you better cg pichu bruh. Matchup is only slightly in Ganon's favor. She DOES have good neutral and is a small target for Ganon to hit. Luckily you can bair/tipman her up-b recovery on reaction whereas pika's requires a read.
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Plunder
Smash Ace
Ah yea frame 9 I thought I edited that before submitting, guess I discarded it instead of saving.
Yea you'd think Pichu is a small target but really those ears have hutboxes on them and they are big. For some reason a lot of the time when I'm playing Doc or Mario, they feel like they are smaller and harder to hit.
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Comet7
Smash Lord
ganon mu is straightforward; pichu combos and edgeguards the **** out of him, but dies after 2 hits. if pichu is cornered, it's not fun because he doesn't have any great options there. (same goes for everyone, but yeah...) if ganon does anything remotely laggy, pichu can react and punish. pichu's range isn't as much of a problem because ganon's stuff with big hitboxes is pretty slow.
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-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I'm familiar with the matchup. Learned long ago it's not free. I really think the metagame is only decently developed among the top and high tier characters, the rest behind far behind. Ganon only seems to crush low tiers, at high level he must try HARD at every one. He doesn't absolutely wreck any character in the same sense that some other bad matchups play out in this game (Marth vs kirby? Lol).
Plunder
Smash Ace
I actually love the Marth - Kirby MU, it's very interesting to watch at a high level and still has some room to develop I think.
Surprisingly G&W vs Puff/Peach can be interesting to watch and play too.
Plunder
Smash Ace
I think Falcon vs any mid or low tier is interesting. But I definitely don't think it's free at all since almost every character including the bad ones have easy combos or CGs on Falcon. If you ask any low tier main it's always Falcon they like playing the most because they feel the have the most chance against that top tier, it can feel quite even for most lower characters (aside from the obvious crap ones).
But yea Ness can Up Air the crap out of Falcon, but so can Yoshi, the Links, DK, Pichu, Mario, and Roy.
Pichu vs Falcon is an especially fun MU since Pichu can essentially 0 to death and CG Falcon with little effort and then Falcon can kill Pichu in 5-6 hits and has throw set ups.
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Comet7
Smash Lord
every low tier has a shot at falcon lol
battlefield > FD as pichu. CGs are nice but pichu loves platforms.
battlefield > FD as pichu. CGs are nice but pichu loves platforms.
Thor
Smash Champion
Marth Kirby is like 60-40 or 70-30... it's his best high tier MU [Falcon is second closest, idk after that]. It would be a slightly (trivially?) better MU if Kirby's dthrow actually set up for tech chases properly too [useful on platforms at least].