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Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

J$~

The King
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I'm not insulting him. The tier list is supposed to reflect results not theories. Samus is an easier character to learn than Pika and has more rep. and results in this meta. That is why most people think she will be above Pika in the next tier list.
I don't disagree with your points, however
Lol fine whatever go ahead and use whatever lame theories with pikachu you have against any decent spacies main at a tournament and you'll get rekt lol.
 

Bad1

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having ness at 15th is absurd. I guess he could get higher than his current tier list placing if ness players got better (far length wavedashes, dtilt resets, star jackets, more Ftilt). Simna is terrible representation for top level ness.
That was honestly the point. I know very well that he is more than likely not able to move up more than a few spots but me placing him there is what I think someone who is god at the game could make him do. Which is why I said "unlikely but possible".

Yoshi imo could easily squeeze into A if amSa starts placing even better.
 
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J$~

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Typing something and actually saying it are 2 different things. You took it literally.
What does that mean? If I give someone a message, whether online or in person, the meaning does not change. (Though if it's something more so like a physical threat, such as "I'm gonna kill you" yeah you're probably right)
Was I supposed to take it metaphorically as opposed to literally? When you are in a discussion with a person, such as the argument you were in, everything stated, whether spoken or typed out online, should be taken seriously and literally.
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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If tier lists were strictly based on results, why have a vote? After all, there is nothing more accurate than a double elimination bracket built on a foundation of inexcusable seeding.

:troll:
 
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FireTails

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
29
Location
New Jersey
S
1. Marth
2. Fox
3. Falco
4. Sheik
A
5. Peach
6. Puff
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Yoshi
B
10. Samus
11. Pikachu
12. Mario
13. Luigi
14. Doc
C
15. Young Link
16. Ganondorf
17. DK
18. Link
D
19. Mr. Game & Watch
20. Pichu
21. Zelda
22. Mewtwo
F
23. Ness
24. Roy
25. Bowser
26. Kirby
Wtf Marth is the best character in melee?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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If I'm johning I'd at least like to know who I'm johning for lol.

I agree with you, I'm just shedding light on the flaws of the system. Because frankly, the whole "placings mean everything" theory is bull****. With perfect seeding, long term results via double elimination bracket make sense. But a double elimination bracket by itself means nothing unless you truly have an understanding of all the players.
 

1MachGO

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I'm not insulting him. The tier list is supposed to reflect results not theories. Samus is an easier character to learn than Pika and has more rep. and results in this meta. That is why most people think she will be above Pika in the next tier list.
By that logic, Pikachu has way better results and data since its already been proven he can compete and adapt at top level. The same cannot be said for Samus; especially when her best main quit her in the fashion that he did.
 

Plunder

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Yea c'mon there Nishi do your research, Pikachu actually has been able to beat more Gods and their top tiers and place higher for a long time now. Your own argument is working against you.

Also I see people make the very dumb and misguided argument that it's the player not the character or that it's just one guy so less representation means it counts less.....

WUT?


That literally makes zero sense, it's the complete opposite. The fact that it's only one person able to do this with the character is actually more impressive and should count for even more. The less rep, the less usage, the smaller the talent pool, the more impressive when somehow just one person is able to achieve such results with a character. It's like buying one ticket for the lottery and winning instead of buying 1000s of tickets and having a much better chance to win. Axe might not even be the best Pikachu player, if more people played Pikachu his meta might have actually evolved faster and an even better player might have emerged using the character. Just look at AmSa with Yoshi, people probably thought Vectorman and Santiago (lil Fumi) were the best there ever would be....nope, and maybe AmSa isn't even the best there could have been if there was a larger user base for Yoshi.
 
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1MachGO

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807
Idk everyones familiar with the double elim format so it is the most used especially in locals.


There are more Samus mains that play at the top level than just Plup. Hugo and Duck made top 32 at EVO and Darrell wasn't too far behind. Does DJ Nintendo still use Samus? I'm not sure if he still uses her or not. If he does you can throw him in there too.
Competing at the top level implies you are a threat to the top 6 and have a chance of winning a national. Plup honestly wasn't too far off, but I don't think any Samus player has achieved that status, and again, he ultimately deemed the character was holding him back. Hugs is definitely a high level player deserving of a top 20ish nod but I don't think he is close to upsetting the likes of Mango, Hungrybox, Armada, or M2K anytime soon.

Furthermore, Evo is not the be all end all and you have to recognize the importance of seeding. If you look at the bracket, Hugs basically took a free ride to top 32 and the only notable person he beat there was Axe who still ended up outplacing him. Duck was admittedly more impressive since he beat Macd and Colbol but Colbol seemed to be underperforming at the time.

The representation argument is also extremely flawed. There are more high level reps for ICs than there are for Puff but a huge majority of people still acknowledge that Puff is the superior character. Falcon also has great representation, but again, he is considered worse than Puff. You could honestly argue that ICs outperform Falcon with a similar amount of high level threats yet the latter is considered better.
 

Plunder

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More rep. in a character does affect tier placement. If no one plays a character, how does anyone notice the character? Seriously if it weren't for Axe, Pikachu would be down in the dumps right now. There needs to be more people that can show that Pika can do this good, or else i'm not changing my mind. Oh and by the way, don't wut me in all caps.
So if no one plays Fox is he down in the dumps too?

I don't care if you change your mind or not, that's not my motivation....at this point; for me, your opinions don't not carry much weight anymore
 
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Plunder

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Really? You're not respecting my opinion? How disrespectful. I honestly can't understand how 1 person doing good with a character is somehow better than, say 5 players. It's so bass ackwards it's unreal.
Edit: I know i'm not the only one who thinks Samus > Pika too.
No you're not, but your reasoning makes no sense.

1 person placing higher with a character than 5 people can place with a different character. Do you not understand simple logic? 5 people are trying with Samus and can't even reach the heights that ONE person can with Pikachu. The only thing "bass ackwards" is your understanding of common sense and how statistics/sample size works.

Like I said a few times I consider them about equal in viability. Pikachu has the better result right now, and has beaten more top players consistently.

Armada stopped using Peach as a main, but you don't just instantly dismiss the fact that he was dominating and taking 1st in nationals with her FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
 
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-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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Idk everyones familiar with the double elim format so it is the most used especially in locals.
???? Lol.

If you're familiar with it, you should know a thing or two about it. It's almost the ONLY method used and i believe everyone already knows that. I'm not proposing a better one, but I'm also not arriving at 100 conclusions based on the results of one tournament.
 

1MachGO

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There were more Peach mains around at the time and still today than just Armada like McCain, Bladewise, DoH, etc... Honestly, your last couple of replies, I feel like you've been disrespectful to me like questioning my intelligence and common sense so I feel like you should stop now before it gets any worse.
Well your most recent argument contradicts itself.

There are less Puffs in the meta than Falcon, ICs, and Samus. By your representation logic, Puff is worse than all three of them.
 
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Plunder

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Out of curiosity what would everyone's response be if Pikachu was higher than both Falcon and ICs on the 2015 tier list?

Preferably I would like to not hear from Falcon mains since they tend to be incredibly biased and naive to other characters. But if you main Falcon and also have Pikachu experience both playing and watching your opinion is welcome.

I personally would not have any trouble accepting it, I don't think there is much separation between Pikachu - Falcon - ICs.
 
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pichuplayer

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Out of curiosity what would everyone's response be if Pikachu was higher than both Falcon and ICs on the 2015 tier list?

Preferably I would like to not hear from Falcon mains since they tend to be incredibly biased and naive to other characters. But if you main Falcon and also have Pikachu experience both playing and watching your opinion is welcome.

I personally would not have any trouble accepting it, I don't think there is much separation between Pikachu - Falcon - ICs.
to me i'm a pika main but i think its Ic's Pika falcon or the three are even
 

1MachGO

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Out of curiosity what would everyone's response be if Pikachu was higher than both Falcon and ICs on the 2015 tier list?

Preferably I would like to not hear from Falcon mains since they tend to be incredibly biased and naive to other characters. But if you main Falcon and also have Pikachu experience both playing and watching your opinion is welcome.

I personally would not have any trouble accepting it, I don't think there is much separation between Pikachu - Falcon - ICs.
Falcon mains were jaded as **** when I joined the scene back in 2011ish. Now they insist almost every character but their own is overrated.

In terms of viability, I could definitely get behind Pikachu >= ICs/Falcon and there is little reason to suggest he is worse than them in the current meta. He just feels far more well rounded, and again, there is evidence a Pikachu can consistently compete at top level.
 

J$~

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kirby actually has stuff, like a chance in neutral

bowser doesn't
At least Bowser has kill moves. And I may be *very* biased but his neutral isn't quite as bad as people think (still pretty bad though)
 

Plunder

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Against the MUs that Bowser just gets rekt on Kirby seems to do a lot better, but against characters that rely heavily on pressuring with fast close moves (spacies, Doc, Pikachu, etc) I'd say Bowser has the edge by a bit since he has a really amazing OoS Up-B and CC options into VERY HIGH percents. Even though he can't edgeuard as well he's better on the ledge against some characters. Kirby's screen door of pain and Dtilt are a serious threats to Marth, Falcon, Spacies, etc. His FF dair edgeguard is actually really scary as well since it can be very hard to not get dragged down with it.

People also giggle at swallow-cides, but it still happens on any level of competition. The aerial swallow hitbox is laughabale and recedes inside of him but the ground hitbox on the swallow grab is massive and can catch like 90% or approaches from the air or ground. And if you are recovering it can be easy to forget it's a tool Kirby has, then it's too late and your getting released into the abyss.

I think if you had to go all Kirby in a tourney you'd fair better overall against all the top and high tier characters, Bowser has some of what I consider unwinnables (Marth , Peach, and Sheik can be a nightmare) and the rest he gets comboed too easily by.
 
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Comet7

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i'd think kirby would do better vs spacies anyway since bowser can't exactly approach that well vs lasering fox / falco... and up b OoS should never land against safe sheild pressure.
 

Plunder

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Well "Safe" pressure doesn't exists against Bowser, now if it's TAS level pressure...well sure he won't be able to get the Up-B off, but then neither would Samus ever. But both are able to at the highest levels of play against the most technical spacies.

In 2/3 you can ban FD and then really there isn't any strong stage that Bowser just outright loses to with spacies, and you of course pick Yoshi's if you can. If it's 3/5 then you better be good on FD, but even if it's a guaranteed loss you can pick Yoshi's as a strong counter. Even on FD though if Spacies or any other character decides to projectile camp...well then just chill on the ledge and lame them right back. Bowser has a fully invincible easy ledge stall and he has some great options from the ledge including invincible Fair, invincible Side-B, amazing < 100 get up attack, invincible Up-B (which can do 25-30 damage if they get caught approaching ledge)

If you're argument is that Bowser can't approach then you should consider that Kirby can't either, in fact I'd argue that on most stages Kirby has a harder time approaching. Kirby might have the upper hand on Bowser when it comes to Falco once he swallows the laser power, SHDL is very OP and can kill most of Falco's options (hilarious to watch a Falco struggle against a Kirby for once).

Bowser has a fast high FH & DJ and when you DJ his hurtbox becomes a lot smaller and harder to hit (most Bowsers instantly DJ right after jumping in neutral to exploit this on approach or defense). His waveland with his fall speed makes him harder to predict on platforms and his Bair, Fair, Nair come out fast enough to hit unsuspecting opponents in between platform movement. And if you whiff he has the fastest escape option - Up-B, then retreat or fade into them and then retreat (preferably to ledge).
 
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BTmoney

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Bowser and Kirby are both complete garbage that can't approach and lose hard on every stage to spacies (and most characters)

Most of your descriptors are either literally wrong or overstated
 
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Plunder

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if you want to see how trying to lame out a camping spacie works, watch hungrybox vs armada

and note that it doesn't work
C'mon now really you're going to compare Puff to Bowser on the ledge? And especially HBox's terrible choices he makes on ledge.

Puff has a very unsafe ledge stall (in the sense that it's rather easy to poke and attack) and it's not even anywhere close to a fully invincible one like Bowser. HBox only does it because Puff has 5 jumps but that doesn't matter if you're just constantly taking damage then recovering, usually with Puff it's a dumb idea against anyone smart.

It's very hard to try and approach or ramen noodle a ledgestalling Bowser since he has so many mix up options from the ledge including a get up attack that covers 1/3 - 1/4 of the stage an Up-B that can out last ledge grab invincibility if they try and steal it (usually it would hit them before they have time to grab).

The true point of ledge stall a camping laser heavy spacie is to just get them to get close enough to you on a stage like FD. Bowser can survive quite a bit even if he does get bopped on the ledge, there is of course danger being far away from neutral but that can be turned around equally if you catch them with an invincible Side B onto stage to Bthrow, a invincible ledge attack, or an invincible Up-B for 25-30 damage
 
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Comet7

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implying that a spacie has to approach puff / bowser on the ledge instead of waiting.

and if you're going to say that puff / bowser / whoever is in the lead...well, one does not simply get a lead for free against a spacie
 
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Plunder

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implying that a spacie has to approach puff / bowser on the ledge instead of waiting.

and if you're going to say that puff / bowser / whoever is in the lead...well, one does not simply get a lead for free against a spacie
Of course not, but it can happen. Pressure on a Bowser or Samus isn't free either. Both from shielding and CCing.

This discussion is going to a useless place though, hypotheticals. More accurately naive hypotheticals (on my part probably as well, since I don't claim to be a Bowser expert.)

What I can say for sure is that Kirby has a far worse track record against spacies than Bowser at a high level.
 

MegaMagikarp

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Cincinnati Ohio
S Tier
1.:foxmelee:
2.:falcomelee:
3.:marthmelee:
4.:sheikmelee:

A Tier
5.:peachmelee:
6.:icsmelee:
7.:jigglypuffmelee:
8.:falconmelee:
9. :pikachumelee:

B Tier
10.:samusmelee:
11.:luigimelee:
12.:yoshimelee:

After this point these characters aren't noteworthy.
13.:drmario:
14.:ganondorfmelee:
15.:mariomelee:
16.:younglinkmelee:
17.:linkmelee:
18.:dkmelee:
19.:gawmelee:
20.:zeldamelee:
21.:mewtwomelee:
22.:nessmelee:
23.:roymelee:
24.:kirbymelee:
25.:pichumelee:
26.:bowsermelee:
 
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