vexoskeleton
Smash Apprentice
How do you justify zelda at 14th?
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Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
Comet7
Smash Lord
you can TRY to justify something like that, but you can't
TacoLord9000
Smash Cadet
As someone who plays Zelda I can attest to the fact that she is terrible. The only characters I would put below her are Ness, Boswer, and Kirby. If you are putting her up there because she can switch into Sheik, that is pretty silly.
Loup
The Wolf
What's the holdup with this?
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
holdup? oh you mean with the list sveet said it would be in a few weeks so from the lists i seen and have gone through this is what it is so far going off of pages 1-5 and my own no trolls
1.Fox
2.Falco
3.Marth
4.Shiek
5.Peach
6.Puff
7.Ic's
8.Falcon
9.Pika
10.Samus
11.Yoshi
12.Luigi
13.Gannon
14.Doc Damn it
15.Mario
16.Y.Link
17.Linkk
18.DK
19. G&W
20. Roy
21.Pichu
22.M2
23.Zelda
24.Ness
25.Bowser
26.Kirby
keep in mind this might not be THAT accurate because this is very difficult to do but on the first five pages and my own list this is what i have gathered looking at it....seems decent
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Loup
The Wolf
What, that's not what i said at all, but thanks anyways.
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
then what did you mean?
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Ban?
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
Ban because of what my bad spelling? or because of his placing i have not gone through the entire thread this is pages 1-5 and my own list this is not set in stone
Plunder
Smash Ace
Dire Creeper
Smash Apprentice
How long did the...I believe that Gannon deserves a....
BANNON
PLANNON
for that joke take?
EddyBearr
Smash Lord
Here's a tier list based only on those posted in the thread by users who have at least 1 top 3 finish in their smashboards melee records (also including, Hbox, Hax, Laudandus, and Tafokints despite not meeting those conditions)
Tier [1.00 - 5.00):(1.00) . (2.64) . (3.14) . (3.64)
Tier [5.00 - 10.00): (5.71) . (6.07) . (6.93) . (7.43) . (9.29) . (9.57)
Tier [10.00 - 15.00): (12.00) . 
(12.15) . (12.54) . (14.27) . (14.91)
Tier [15.00 - 20.00): (16.23) . (16.59) . (17.73) . (19.91)
Tier [20.00 - 26.00]: (20.91) . (21.00) . (21.82) . (23.00) . (23.45) . (24.64) . (24.82)
I would interpret this as:
Good to main:
Disadvantaged:
Don't main these:
Tier [1.00 - 5.00):
(1.00) . (2.64) . (3.14) . (3.64)Tier [5.00 - 10.00):
(5.71) . (6.07) . (6.93) . (7.43) . (9.29) . (9.57)Tier [10.00 - 15.00):
(12.00) . (12.15) . (12.54) . (14.27) . (14.91)Tier [15.00 - 20.00):
(16.23) . (16.59) . (17.73) . (19.91)Tier [20.00 - 26.00]:
(20.91) . (21.00) . (21.82) . (23.00) . (23.45) . (24.64) . (24.82)I would interpret this as:
Good to main:
Disadvantaged:
Don't main these:
TDK
Smash Master
l l l l l l l l = tier gap
Any comments?
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TDK
Smash Master
Here's a prettier looking one:Here's a tier list based only on those posted in the thread by users who have at least 1 top 3 finish in their smashboards melee records (also including, Hbox, Hax, Laudandus, and Tafokints despite not meeting those conditions)
Tier [1.00 - 5.00):
Tier [5.00 - 10.00):
Tier [10.00 - 15.00):
Tier [15.00 - 20.00):
Tier [20.00 - 26.00]:
I would interpret this as:
Good to main:
Disadvantaged:
Don't main these:
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
That is a great ****ing tier list.
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
TDK
Smash Master
It's a spreadsheet. I filled in all the boxes that weren't being used with Black to make the list stand out more.
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TheBigChew
Smash Cadet
My list,feel free to reply
1.Fox
2.Falco
3.Marth
4.Shiek
--------------
5.Puff
6.Peach
7.Falcon
8.Ic's
9.Pikachu
10.Samus
11.Luigi
-------------------
12.Doc
13.yoshi
14.Ganon
15.Link
16.Y.Link
17.Mario
18.Dk
----------------------
19.Game and watch
20.Roy
21.Mewtwo
22.Ness
23.Pichu
24.Zelda
25.Bowser
26.Kirby
1.Fox
2.Falco
3.Marth
4.Shiek
--------------
5.Puff
6.Peach
7.Falcon
8.Ic's
9.Pikachu
10.Samus
11.Luigi
-------------------
12.Doc
13.yoshi
14.Ganon
15.Link
16.Y.Link
17.Mario
18.Dk
----------------------
19.Game and watch
20.Roy
21.Mewtwo
22.Ness
23.Pichu
24.Zelda
25.Bowser
26.Kirby
TDK
Smash Master
Young Link > Link because of better mobility.
gmBottles
Fun Haver
This is pretty solid!Here's a tier list based only on those posted in the thread by users who have at least 1 top 3 finish in their smashboards melee records (also including, Hbox, Hax, Laudandus, and Tafokints despite not meeting those conditions)
Tier [1.00 - 5.00):
Tier [5.00 - 10.00):
Tier [10.00 - 15.00):
Tier [15.00 - 20.00):
Tier [20.00 - 26.00]:
I would interpret this as:
Good to main:
Disadvantaged:
Don't main these:
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
thank you very much
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
Jim Jam Flim Flam
Smash Apprentice
What makes you put Falcon above ICs? Most people put falcon above ICs, but I don't see what about Falcon makes him better overall.
Tier Classification Translator:
Also known as the Speculation Continuum
"Top Tier" = "Almost exclusively based off tourney results"
"High Tier" = "Mostly reinforced by results, but I'll never admit that Pikachu and ICs have more established tournament potential than Falcon"
"Mid Tier" = "At least ONE player gets results with these guys, now how should we arrange them?"
"Low Tier" and "Bottom Tier" = "Lets waste our time speculating about these underdeveloped characters who have no impact on the meta."
Also known as the Speculation Continuum
"Top Tier" = "Almost exclusively based off tourney results"
"High Tier" = "Mostly reinforced by results, but I'll never admit that Pikachu and ICs have more established tournament potential than Falcon"
"Mid Tier" = "At least ONE player gets results with these guys, now how should we arrange them?"
"Low Tier" and "Bottom Tier" = "Lets waste our time speculating about these underdeveloped characters who have no impact on the meta."
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
uhh just a question what was th point of this post unless your posting it for people new to tier lists
Plunder
Smash Ace
2015 Tier List for dummies:
A.K.A. How To Waste A Large Amount of Time Just to Change 1 Character's Spot that Should Have Been Changed 5-6 Years Ago (but still really isn't viable)
"Viable Tier" = These are viable, you could win. MUs against characters in this tier are all that matter at the highest level.
"Not Viable Tier" = C'mon now don't do it. You won't ever get top 3 at nationals. Bonus Fact - It's also the tier that people waste the most time arguing about....even though it doesn't matter at all really. womp womp *single tear*
A.K.A. How To Waste A Large Amount of Time Just to Change 1 Character's Spot that Should Have Been Changed 5-6 Years Ago (but still really isn't viable)
"Viable Tier" = These are viable, you could win. MUs against characters in this tier are all that matter at the highest level.
"Not Viable Tier" = C'mon now don't do it. You won't ever get top 3 at nationals. Bonus Fact - It's also the tier that people waste the most time arguing about....even though it doesn't matter at all really. womp womp *single tear*
Comet7
Smash Lord
it was more useful than all of your posts in this topic put together, tbh
pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
XD not even mad because most likley it's true XD
Just illustrating how contradictory the approach to tier lists are through satire. Sheepish thought paradoxically wanes as less information exists to justify a character's potential. This is why I wish more people would advocate for different approaches to tier lists. I feel like if we had a result based tier list and a popularity based tier list as additional resources, people might reconsider how they approach a topic like this and perhaps be more objective.
SPoitter
Interior Crocodile Aligator
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 111
sentiment
best characters -
1 - Fox
2 - Falco
3 - Sheik
4 - Marth
5 - Peach and Jigglypuff tied
7 - Ice Climbers
8 - Captain Falcon
high tier -
9 - Samus
10 - Pikachu
11 - Luigi
12 - Ganondorf
13 - Doctor Mario
mid tier -
14 - Yoshi
15 - Mario
16 - Link
17 - Young Link
18 - G&W
19 - Donkey Kong
low tier -
20 - Mewtwo
21 - Zelda
22 - Ness
23 - Roy
24 - Pichu
25 - Kirby
26 - Bowser
best characters -
1 - Fox
2 - Falco
3 - Sheik
4 - Marth
5 - Peach and Jigglypuff tied
7 - Ice Climbers
8 - Captain Falcon
high tier -
9 - Samus
10 - Pikachu
11 - Luigi
12 - Ganondorf
13 - Doctor Mario
mid tier -
14 - Yoshi
15 - Mario
16 - Link
17 - Young Link
18 - G&W
19 - Donkey Kong
low tier -
20 - Mewtwo
21 - Zelda
22 - Ness
23 - Roy
24 - Pichu
25 - Kirby
26 - Bowser
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Plunder
Smash Ace
I'm sure this rather self-indulged sentence sounded good in your head, but sorry man it's just backwards non-sense.
Is it "sheepish thought" when a scientist re-creates an experiment 10 times before coming to a conclusion? Or should they just assume all the calculations and theory are in order and began the mass manufacture for the general public before ever actually testing it?
There is no "paradoxical wane" it's just a complete lack of usage and practical knowledge that makes newcomers think there is more to still develop and discover....but A LARGE MAJORITY of the time there isn't and they are just delusional. No, these characters aren't used as much because it's quite clear they are worse than the character in the next tier above them. They would require an unequal player skill level or luck to win. This game has been out 14 years almost, AND before I hear any retort I'll say - most high level players already knew Yoshi was a good character (but just took way too much effort to maximize at a high level). Yoshi is the last big "surprise" mainstream Melee players will realize....his undeserved low placement was based on results but also on the difficulty of mastering his tech and movement. Honestly though he shouldn't get bumped up too far considering how rare the MU is still, meaning there is a lot of ignorance even from top level players. We're starting to see them learn it and get more decisive wins over AmSa and there are lower level players that can beat him because they actually know the MU and exploits (he's failed to qualify a lot for larger tourneys, losing to lesser players).
So whether you like it or not, a character has to actually prove them selves over and over first to be considered "better" or "worse". The true test of a character is when the other player knows the MU extremely well and has played against the character A LOT.....if they still are able to win THEN and only then is it a legitimate cause for change. For instance Fox is such a commonly played character and MU; we all know every little exploit, combo, KO set up, and option on him.....yet still he's able to win despite the wealth of knowledge against the character.
Anyways even from a purely theoretical POV, I feel 95% of the tier list should look identical. And let's not forget the votes that count are from top professionals. Not you, or I, or almost any of the other people here.
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
record scratch Marth below shiek?
SPoitter
Interior Crocodile Aligator
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 111
i think they're both pretty equal, but sheik is 0.01% better
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pichuplayer
Smash Journeyman
Look at Marth's results look at shiek's then will talk
My entire argument is based in the fact that a tier list is approached with inconsistent reasoning in relation to the information available. Sheepish thought isn't inherently bad, and I think there is certainly merit to putting most of your stock into evidence as opposed to theory, but the problem is that this mindset doesn't pervade the entire tier list discussion.
In other words, its fine when a scientist does an experiment 10 times before coming to a conclusion; but it isn't fine when a scientist only does 1 trial for another experiment, calls it a day, and then expects its reasonable to compare the data for both experiments.
So please, spare me the dime-a-dozen confirmation bias argument with Yoshi. People do it all the time with any tier changes at both the low and high end. I remember clearly when people were saying Marth sucked vs. floaties and was falling off the meta or that Falco might be better than Fox. Now people are saying that Marth could be just as good as Fox and Falco might be falling off the meta like it was obvious all along.
"So whether you like it or not", sheep vs. over-theory isn't the debate here. I just want some consistency, and perhaps some honest self-awareness in regards to the ideas being thrown out there. If theory is being used as a substitute as actual data, that SHOULD be acknowledged. And likewise, evidence still allows just as much, if not more room for theoretical debate. My hope is that multiple approaches to a tier list can be discussed in tandem; all with their own clearly defined goals and rules in how to determine order. A hodgepodge of ideas forming a single, inconsistent list is not as useful as 2 or more lists with separate, which separate specific approaches and deliver clear, consistent data.
So you can view me as someone who "self-indulges" or is perhaps a cynic, but all I want are valuable resources for the community and I think the tier list has failed at being that since its inception. I think after you've played the game longer and seeing more meta shifts you'll understand where I am coming from.
TDK
Smash Master
I still think it's aMSa, not Yoshi.
TacoLord9000
Smash Cadet
Isn't the whole point of a tier list to determine the max potential the character has in the hands of the best player with that character? So if aMSa represents the max potential of the character then Yoshi is clearly better than Mario or Ganon since neither of those characters have had any significant placings anytime recently. The last time I remember Ganon having a significant placing is when Kage double eliminated Mango which was in 2009.
vexoskeleton
Smash Apprentice
atleast leffen and possible more top players have stated that amsa plays a gimmicky yoshi that isn't near the character's full potential. https://twitter.com/tsm_leffen/status/626883264293261312
Plunder
Smash Ace
Leffen's opinion should always be taken as a joke. He says this stuff about M2K then gets bodied 14 times by him. He talks crap about Foxes losing to Samuses, then proceeds to get bodied by every Samus main in existence.