Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Fortress | Sveet]

why do i even bother i've said this three times we don't know!!!! sveet said it would be a few weeks

After Big House I will have time to work on this. I have been trying to put my energy into practice, while my job has kept me working overtime.

 

[ASCII]

S-Tier:
1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Falco
4. Sheik

A-Tier:
5. Peach
6. Jigglypuff
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers

B-Tier:
9. Samus
10. Pikachu
11. Dr. Mario
12. Ganondorf
13. Luigi
14. Mario

C-Tier:
15. Young Link
16. Yoshi
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Roy

D-Tier:
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Bowser
22. Zelda
23. Ness
24. Pichu

F-Tier:
25. Mewtwo
26. Kirby

 

[pichuplayer]

S-Tier:
1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Falco
4. Sheik

A-Tier:
5. Peach
6. Jigglypuff
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers

B-Tier:
9. Samus
10. Pikachu
11. Dr. Mario
12. Ganondorf
13. Luigi
14. Mario

C-Tier:
15. Young Link
16. Yoshi
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Roy

D-Tier:
20. Mr. Game & Watch
21. Bowser
22. Zelda
23. Ness
24. Pichu

F-Tier:
25. Mewtwo
26. Kirby

Yoshi cannot be that low its crime

 

[pro1137]

SS Tier
1.
2.

S Tier
3.
4.

A+ Tier
5.
6.

A Tier
7.
8.
9.
10.

B Tier
11.
12.

B- Tier
13.
14.

C Tier
15.
16.
17.
18.

D Tier
19.
20.
21.
22.

F Tier
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

SS Tier
1.
2.

S Tier
3.
4.

A+ Tier
5.
6.

A Tier
7.
8.
9.
10.

B Tier
11.
12.

B- Tier
13.
14.

C Tier
15.
16.
17.
18.

D Tier
19.
20.
21.
22.

F Tier
23.
24.
25.
26.

So many things wrong with this. ICs at 10th and below Pika and Samus? And why is Falcon below Pika? Ganon cannot be put over luigi and yoshi. Yoshi that low is a crime, below mario is not right.
Mid tier placement should be
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.

 

[migul]

So many things wrong with this. ICs at 10th and below Pika and Samus? And why is Falcon below Pika? Ganon cannot be put over luigi and yoshi. Yoshi that low is a crime, below mario is not right.
Mid tier placement should be
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.

Pika could definitely be argued above samus, but other than that it's pretty spot on.

 

[pro1137]

Pikachu has a 0-death chaingrab on both spacies. Below Samus?

 

[-ACE-]

Last 2 lists have Ganon over luigi.

Score one for the dark lord? Lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Pikachu has a 0-death chaingrab on both spacies. Below Samus?

Ganon has the same. Below falcon???



Lol.

 

[Plunder]

So what? Kirby has 0 to Death on everyone

#KirbySucks

 

[Dolla Pills]

Does anyone else feel like Puff is not a great character and Hbox is just a legend?

 

[-ACE-]

Does anyone else feel like Puff is not a great character and Hbox is just a legend?

No. You have a small point but as a whole I disagree.

 

[Plunder]

Considering Puff is a pain in the butt for all the top tiers to beat....it's pretty easy to see she's a great character. Even without throws or the rest, she'd still be difficult to play against given the aerial "dash dance" and the way her great aerials can AC and cover so much area.

 

[-ACE-]

Considering Puff is a pain in the butt for all the top tiers to beat....it's pretty easy to see she's a great character. Even without throws or the rest, she'd still be difficult to play against given the aerial "dash dance" and the way her great aerials can AC and cover so much area.

Concise and true. The zoning game is so pertinent and demanding. There can easily be a better puff than hbox, not to say he's not a legend. We just haven't seen it (and most likely never will, but juan is the only guy that ever came close to maxing out puff). Someone else of similar skill maining puff would be eye opening.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Pika could definitely be argued above samus, but other than that it's pretty spot on.

The reason I put Samus above Pika because Samus is getting consistent results with Hugs and sometimes Plup. Pika only has Axe(I think) to stand on. In terms of tech on top tiers, Pika has the edge.

 

[pichuplayer]

The reason I put Samus above Pika because Samus is getting consistent results with Hugs and sometimes Plup. Pika only has Axe(I think) to stand on. In terms of tech on top tiers, Pika has the edge.

maybe pikachad also but that might be strecthing things

 

[migul]

The reason I put Samus above Pika because Samus is getting consistent results with Hugs and sometimes Plup. Pika only has Axe(I think) to stand on. In terms of tech on top tiers, Pika has the edge.

They are very close in terms of overall ranking, but Plup pretty much giving up on her in the fashion he did isn't a good look. Hugs is still doing work, though.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

new tier list:

S Rank
1.
2.
3.
4.

A+ Rank
5. - I think peach is better than jiggs because she doesn't have any sort of problems with low tiers (like g&w), probably beats falco, does good against fox, and does really good against marth.
6.

A Rank
7.
8.

B+ Rank
9.
10.
11. - I think samus is a bit overrated. Does good against Fox, IC's, and maybe Falcon or Marth. Goes even or loses to both Mario and Dr. Mario for some reason. Gets kind of bopped by Sheik, Puff, Peach, and maybe Falco.
12.

B Rank
13.
14.
15.
16.

B- Rank - All of these characters are actually OK IMO.
17.
18.
19.
20.

C+ Rank - mediocre
21.
22.

C Rank - bad
23.
24.
25.
26. - ugggggh

 

[vexoskeleton]

new tier list:

S Rank
1.
2.
3.
4.

A+ Rank
5. - I think peach is better than jiggs because she doesn't have any sort of problems with low tiers (like g&w), probably beats falco, does good against fox, and does really good against marth.
6.

A Rank
7.
8.

B+ Rank
9.
10.
11. - I think samus is a bit overrated. Does good against Fox, IC's, and maybe Falcon or Marth. Goes even or loses to both Mario and Dr. Mario for some reason. Gets kind of bopped by Sheik, Puff, Peach, and maybe Falco.
12.

B Rank
13.
14.
15.
16.

B- Rank - All of these characters are actually OK IMO.
17.
18.
19.
20.

C+ Rank - mediocre
21.
22.

C Rank - bad
23.
24.
25.
26. - ugggggh

I fail to see how puff having 'problems(?)' with low tiers as you call it would be relevant at all if it was true as low tiers are irrelevant to the meta entirely. She also doesn't beat falco, has a pretty bad time against fox but it's not as bad as puff, and at best goes even with marth. At this point I think puff or peach being better is essentially a matter of opinion but I'd still like to hear thoughts on the first part.

also lmao pichu above gw and DK.

 

[TacoLord9000]

I fail to see how puff having 'problems(?)' with low tiers as you call it would be relevant at all if it was true as low tiers are irrelevant to the meta entirely. She also doesn't beat falco, has a pretty bad time against fox but it's not as bad as puff, and at best goes even with marth. At this point I think puff or peach being better is essentially a matter of opinion but I'd still like to hear thoughts on the first part.

also lmao pichu above gw and DK.

Well Peach definitely has a better matchup against Fox than Puff does and Fox is the most prominent character in the meta so it makes sense in my opinion to put her over Puff. She also is a hard counter to the ICs and Puff doesn't really hard counter a top tier character like that.

I would say that G&W and DK have more potential than Pichu but it's not like we ever see any dedicated Pichu mains to really prove us wrong.

Honestly though I think the tier list needs to be a reflection of the character's influence on the metagame, which in my opinion translates to how good the character is in the hands of the best player with that character. Whether there is only one or two dedicated mains to characters like Samus or Pikachu is irrelevant in my opinion because it doesn't have any effect on how good the characters is in practice. Just because "Hbox is the only good Puff main," does not mean that Puff is overrated or too high on the tier list, it just means that people prefer other characters. While most people tend to play characters that are at the top of the tier list, this does not mean necessarily that the most played characters are the best. There are more Ganon mains than Puff mains but that does not mean Ganon is better than Puff.

 

[pichuplayer]

new tier list:

S Rank
1.
2.
3.
4.

A+ Rank
5. - I think peach is better than jiggs because she doesn't have any sort of problems with low tiers (like g&w), probably beats falco, does good against fox, and does really good against marth.
6.

A Rank
7.
8.

B+ Rank
9.
10.
11. - I think samus is a bit overrated. Does good against Fox, IC's, and maybe Falcon or Marth. Goes even or loses to both Mario and Dr. Mario for some reason. Gets kind of bopped by Sheik, Puff, Peach, and maybe Falco.
12.

B Rank
13.
14.
15.
16.

B- Rank - All of these characters are actually OK IMO.
17.
18.
19.
20.

C+ Rank - mediocre
21.
22.

C Rank - bad
23.
24.
25.
26. - ugggggh

finally SOMEONE ELSE who thinks pichu is good

 

[outofphase]

Revised tier list after learning some new stuff in alot of matchups:

S:

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik

A:

Peach
Jiggs

B:

Falcon
ICs
Pika

C:

Yoshi
Samus
Luigi
Mario
Doc
Ganon

D:

Y. Link
DK
Link

F:

Ness
Mewtwo
Roy
Pichu
Bowser
GnW

Z:

Zelda
Kirby

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

G and W shouldn't be that low imo

 

[_Magus_]

To all those who are arguing that certain low tiers should be above other low tiers, I'm just gonna leave this here:

 

[Plunder]

To all those who are arguing that certain low tiers should be above other low tiers, I'm just gonna leave this here:

We've already covered this (I know I've tried getting the point across). It seems to fall on deaf ears here or people just want to continue a conversation that really doesn't matter just because they have nothing better to do. Then new people come in and they are clueless about what had already been beaten to death in a thread 10 pages ago. Really though......that's like 75% of this website, so we're in the minority for sure.

It is particularly amazing how many people want to argue about Pichu's placement, it literally doesn't matter. Most don't even play in tourneys let alone use Pichu in tourney at a high level. So why even humor such ridiculous claims and lists, but it keeps happening over and over.....

 

[_Magus_]

We've already covered this (I know I've tried getting the point across). It seems to fall on deaf ears here or people just want to continue a conversation that really doesn't matter just because they have nothing better to do. Then new people come in and they are clueless about what had already been beaten dead in a thread. Really though......that's like 75% of this website, so we're in the minority for sure.

It is particularly amazing how many people want to argue about Pichu's placement, it literally doesn't matter. Most don't even play in tourneys let alone use Pichu in tourney at a high level. So why even humor such ridiculous claims and lists, but it keeps happening over and over.....

I guess maybe it's that the high tiers are so well established that there's nothing for these new people to do but argue for the placement of Pichu and Kirby.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I guess maybe it's that the high tiers are so well established that there's nothing for these new people to do but argue for the placement of Pichu and Kirby.

Just because I said g and w should not be that low does not mean I don't know what I am talking about. I know that characters below Ganon almost never get used. I am talking about tech skill of g and w. I want to talk about low tiers, even though there are not viable

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

To all those who are arguing that certain low tiers should be above other low tiers, I'm just gonna leave this here:

Just because I said g and w should not be placed that low does not mean I am arguing. His tech skill is just higher than some characters, so I am just trying to get my point across. Characters below Ganon rarely get used, but they are still worth taking about.
I already saw ESAMs vid on tier lists.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

there is honestly no way pichu is bottom 4 no matter how I think of it

 

[EddyBearr]

there is honestly no way pichu is bottom 4 no matter how I think of it

I don't think there's any way that Pichu is anything other than bottom 2. He has no hitboxes, is combo food, dies immediately, and has 1.5 kill moves.

 

[Comet7]

I don't think there's any way that Pichu is anything other than bottom 2. He has no hitboxes, is combo food, dies immediately, and has 1.5 kill moves.

up tilt and nair are pretty good. nair is fantastic at killing and has setups. he is combo food though. he also isn't bowser.

 

[Jim Jam Flim Flam]

We've already covered this (I know I've tried getting the point across). It seems to fall on deaf ears here or people just want to continue a conversation that really doesn't matter just because they have nothing better to do. Then new people come in and they are clueless about what had already been beaten to death in a thread 10 pages ago. Really though......that's like 75% of this website, so we're in the minority for sure.

It is particularly amazing how many people want to argue about Pichu's placement, it literally doesn't matter. Most don't even play in tourneys let alone use Pichu in tourney at a high level. So why even humor such ridiculous claims and lists, but it keeps happening over and over.....

I think it just really rustles some jimmies when people put Pichu as the 15th best character, and instead of thinking, "what the hell, pichu isn't that good" people for some reason have to comment about how much Pichu sucks as if everybody didn't already know that. People are too concerned with characters they like being placed in low tier placements. I main Pikachu but I don't think he's in the same tier as fox and Falco, and it would take some crazy **** for me to believe that he is.

 

[Mastodon]

So many people are really overrating yoshi IMO. The tier list should reflect the viability of a character in the hands of everyone, not in the hands of a top professional. I mean, i hate to say it, but amsa would probably see immediate improvement in tournament results by switching to any top tier character. Don't let the outstanding results of amsa skew your opinion of the character.

...have any of you guys putting yoshi above samus, luigi, etc. ever actually played yoshi? Luigi and Samus are definitely better than yoshi. Personally, I would argue that most of the mid tier characters are still leaps and bounds better than yoshi, but to argue that yoshi is above samus, doc and luigi is really far fetch'd

my tier list after top 8 puts yoshi at the very bottom of characters that are any bit viable:

pikachu
samus
luigi
doc
ganon
mario
young link
link
yoshi
rest of the cast

 

[Plunder]

So many people are really overrating yoshi IMO. The tier list should reflect the viability of a character in the hands of everyone, not in the hands of a top professional. I mean, i hate to say it, but amsa would probably see immediate improvement in tournament results by switching to any top tier character. Don't let the outstanding results of amsa skew your opinion of the character.

...have any of you guys putting yoshi above samus, luigi, etc. ever actually played yoshi? Luigi and Samus are definitely better than yoshi. Personally, I would argue that most of the mid tier characters are still leaps and bounds better than yoshi, but to argue that yoshi is above samus, doc and luigi is really far fetch'd

my tier list after top 8 puts yoshi at the very bottom of characters that are any bit viable:

pikachu
samus
luigi
doc
ganon
mario
young link
link
yoshi
rest of the cast

I'd pretty much agree with that, but to add that even AmSa loses to lesser players because they actually know the MU really well. I think a character has to show results for more than a few tourneys to be considered for such large moves. The MU is still very unknown even by the top players, that factor is massive in determining if a character is actually more viable or not on a tier list. It's the true test of a character, not gimmicks or MU ignorance allowing a win.

I also don't think AmSa doing really well or Axe doing really well should categorically hurt those characters just because they are rare and have extremely talented players behind them, but it definitely should make people take a moment and consider just how good the character is on their own...Pikachu has been proven over and over against the Gods and top players, Yoshi hasn't in the same convincing fashion (plus he has more crippling MU specific problems).

I would personally put Yoshi above Mario, still a very strong unique character.

so,

pikachu
samus
luigi
doc
ganon
yoshi
mario
young link
link

I've felt that way since I first picked up this game casually, a good Yoshi can be very annoying and different to play against. In fact if someone argued Yoshi over Ganon I wouldn't try and talk them out of it, he's got stuff that Ganon never can.

 

[Mastodon]

for the record, here is my tier list, with my explanations. My experience is limited compared to many other players, but I'd like to think that my reasoning is sound and relatively un-biased (unlike hax. Seriously, has anyone seen his tier list? lol).

S-tier, most viable for winning tournaments: I think people have seen the success of marth and have tended to put marth above shiek. Though Marth definitely has the tools to beat anyone above him on the tier list, I think it is still clear that he does have some disadvantages that put him behind shiek, namely his laggy moves and lack of a projectile. Regardless, it is clear that these characters stand well above the rest of melee's cast.






A-tier, viable for winning tournaments: despite their disadvantages to characters in the S-tier, its apparent that a player can still out-play S-tier characters with relative ease depending on player skill. Only results from major tournaments really separate this tier from the above tier: rarely do you see a character from this tier in top 8 contention of a smash major (with the exception of jigglypuff). Despite having more top results, IC's cannot be above falcon or peach simply because those characters are truly unfavored match ups for IC's in a vacuum, and those characters are still only moderately disadvantaged against S-tier characters, as are IC's. Jiggs stands above the rest because of her exceptional aerial movement and aerial moves, as well as the strongest finisher in the game: rest. I really don't think enough top players are taking advantage of the potential rest has.






B1-tier, viable for winning tournaments, but clearly disadvantaged. Things get hairy in this tier. I think its safe to say pikachu is simply faster than samus, has amazing recovery options, has solid finishers, and has a projectile. I think the only thing samus has over pikachu is her projectiles and possibly her grab (though both of their grabs are awful which is probably the sole reason neither of them are in contention with the top 8). Its tough to say, but I do believe with more people following axe, we will see more people fleshing out pikachu and we may see a clearer distinction between the two. Either way, I think its clear that pikachu and samus stand above the rest of the mid tier characters with the exception of maybe luigi. I believe that doc has been placed much too highly on the previous tier list due to the skewed results of shroomed in the previous two or three years. Luigi, in my testing and observation, has proven to be more viable having slightly better recovery and significantly better movement with essentially equal moveset in comparison to doc. The number of top luigi players vs top doc players also attests to this: there are significantly less doc players than luigi players in the top 100.






B2-tier, viable for winning tournaments, but clearly disadvantaged. Again, things are hairy here, as top players of these characters are more inclined to skew results and may incorrectly portray their actual viability. I think ganon is still pretty strongly set on top here as he has devastatingly strong moves and is hard to KO with regular attacks due to his weight. Results from top ganon players seem to also show that he is positioned better than those below him on the tier list, but again, the data isn't very reliable for this tier so we can't definitely use that to say that ganon is better than everyone in this tier. Mario is strong, and quite possibly better than ganon (or even doc, IMO), but again, lack of top players and top results make it hard to say he is better than ganon. Y link and link are definitely placed correctly here having favorable match ups for anyone below them on the tier list, and definitely disadvantaged against anyone above them. I think link could possibly be better than young link granted he is heavier and has a significantly better up b, but the combos are definitely stronger for young link. Again, lack of top players really pushing these characters makes it cloudy in this regard. Admittedly, I have little to no experience with these characters and anyone past them on the tier list. As far as yoshi goes, I'll say it again: I think people are putting him much too high on their tier lists. Amsa has gotten away with the uniqueness of his character to make some results that really skew the actual viability of this character. All of the characters above him on the tier list have statistically and physically better movement and movesets. Amsa's outstanding results are much more a testament to his play skill than a testament to yoshi as a character, IMO.







C-tier, not likely to win tournaments. Not much to say here. G/W has great moves, much better than the following characters. Roy has great movement like marth but just really lacks the moveset, obviously. Everyone behind these two just really suffer from lack of good movement and good moves. Zelda's moves are all pretty strong, but really laggy. DK pretty much has all sub par moves but at least they're good enough to have moves above the bottom tier.






F-tier, not viable for winning tournaments. Pichu's nair and up smash are great, but everything else is pretty bad and of course the self-damaging clause is a real problem which puts him behind the rest of the cast. Mewtwo has a great nair, and thats pretty much it. I don't even know about kirby, but he's better than bowser simply because he's got slightly more options at his disposal in terms of moves and his recovery is of course great. Bowser literally has one saving grace to his competitive viability: up b. Outside that, it is really hard to land a move on an opponent without flat out predicting your opponent.

 

[Twinkles]

for the record, here is my tier list, with my explanations. My experience is limited compared to many other players, but I'd like to think that my reasoning is sound and relatively un-biased (unlike hax. Seriously, has anyone seen his tier list? lol).

Liked this list for the most part, and agreed with most of the tier divisions. Starts getting iffy lower down the list, which is not surprising.

S-TIER: Marth above Sheik IMO. I think Sheik has a worse MU than Marth against spacies, Puff, and IC's. I personally think Falco/Marth are interchangeable, Marth edges out the floaty MUs over Falco IMO, though Falco wrecks most other chars.

A-TIER: No changes. I don't really agree about this potential of Puff's rest business, there are already a lot of existing setups and most really good Puffs know how to get rests of roll reads n the like. I think Puffs could be doing more aggressive aerial cross-ups on shield.

B1-TIER: Good

B2-TIER: Undervaluing Yoshi TOO much IMO. I also agree he's been inflated cuz of Amsa, but honestly can't say he's worse than Y. Link or Link, and very hesitant to say he's worse than Ganon or Mario. His moveset is actually pretty good, syngergizes well with his character properties, and his movement on platforms is no joke. This is in comparison to Ganon, who is atrociously slow in both movement and moveset, Mario, Y. Link, and Link all with significantly worse moveset than Yoshi IMO.

C-TIER: I feel like you could move all these chars to F tier which exception of DK, who is grossly undervalued when he has a great DD, great neutral spacing tool (bair), and good options for punishes (uair -> uair -> choice of combo finisher). DK should be moved to B2, I don't think he's worse than either of the Links TBH

F-TIER: All the chars already here deserve to be here. Ness I could see moving higher one day, he seems like he has nuances.

 

[RoyScrub]

SSS tier
Impossible to win with anybody else

 

[Plunder]

SSS tier
Impossible to win with anybody else

Roy is in the same tier as Donald Trump

 

[MagicScrumpy]

SSS tier
Impossible to win with anybody else

Worst troll I've seen in a long time lmfao

 

[Mastodon]

A-TIER: No changes. I don't really agree about this potential of Puff's rest business, there are already a lot of existing setups and most really good Puffs know how to get rests of roll reads n the like. I think Puffs could be doing more aggressive aerial cross-ups on shield.

I guess what I actually mean to say is that people who place puff lower than say peach or anyone else are underestimating the game's strongest attack. We rarely see it at top level play just because top players do their best to play around getting rested, and I feel that some people may be forgetting that when they put puff below peach.

I don't know why I even said puff players aren't using rest to its full potential. I mean, maybe amateur players aren't, but thats not the point.