Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Sir Bubbles]

8.Doc
9.Falcon

Okay... Even I have Doc bias, but I'm not gonna go run around and say stuff like "Doc is better than Falcon" when it's completely not true LOL.

In terms of attributes, Falcon literally runs circles around Doc. Falcon's aerials have range, something Doc lacks a large amount and is what actually holds him back a ton. He also has a lot more combo follow ups (Pretty much all of his aerials have the potential to do so) than Doc ever would (Nair and Fair if you're lucky.) Projectiles are irrelevant, as Falcon's neutral is impossibly better than Doc's and the fact that Pills are a 40+ frame commitment. Pill's in neutral are overrated in the fact that they can be eaten by hitboxes when thrown out (Marth's fair, Jiggs Bair, Falcon Nair.) And the fact that a pill leaves him vulnerable to fast/ranged characters like Fox, Falcon and Marth. Doc's neutral is so much worse that he has to rely on weird, gimmicky mind game setups to get the grab/dsmash that HOPEFULLY ends the stock (assuming it's against a fast faller.)

Doc is even if not better than Puff, Peach, Falcon, and Sheik. Spacies trash him, where as they have an even MU with falcon. Honestly, I think they are the most close characters in my list because they both have excellent combo games, the only reason I give Doc the edge is because he has better MUs against everyone at the top besides peach and spacies. Feel free to rebuttal, I am willing to take constructive criticism.

Not even close, sorry. While Falcon's only hard MUs are Fox/Falco/Sheik, they're at the very least winnable and he has even and advantageous MUs later down the tier list. Doc doesn't even remotely go even with any top tier besides ICs, which he barely loses to. Puff is definitely not even IMO due to Puff's insane aerial control, the ability to cancel pills with one bair, range and a whole lot of other ugly stuff. Fishing in for the fair is a lot harder than what people make it out to be on Puff. Doc may have a decent rest punish, but what matters most is the neutral control, in which Puff wins indefinitely. Peach is Doc's absolute hardest MU, not even at all for a multitude of reasons. Falcon is not as hard as people say, but definitely not even and same goes to Sheik. Spacies is where Doc's punish game is the strongest, so I find it odd that you state that they're his hardest when Marth, Peach and Falcon are actually harder. In addition to it, I don't think Fox/Falco/Sheik are as bad for Falcon as Marth and Peach are for Doc, I honestly doubt that.

Doc may have a good punish game on most characters, but he lacks range and speed to make up for it. Doc has absurd neutral problems that a great punish game can't cover. Falcon is and will always be better than Doc until there's some revolutionary new tech that give Doc some stock free gimmick.

 

[AfroNova]

Okay... Even I have Doc bias, but I'm not gonna go run around and say stuff like "Doc is better than Falcon" when it's completely not true LOL.

In terms of attributes, Falcon literally runs circles around Doc. Falcon's aerials have range, something Doc lacks a large amount and is what actually holds him back a ton. He also has a lot more combo follow ups (Pretty much all of his aerials have the potential to do so) than Doc ever would (Nair and Fair if you're lucky.) Projectiles are irrelevant, as Falcon's neutral is impossibly better than Doc's and the fact that Pills are a 40+ frame commitment. Pill's in neutral are overrated in the fact that they can be eaten by hitboxes when thrown out (Marth's fair, Jiggs Bair, Falcon Nair.) And the fact that a pill leaves him vulnerable to fast/ranged characters like Fox, Falcon and Marth. Doc's neutral is so much worse that he has to rely on weird, gimmicky mind game setups to get the grab/dsmash that HOPEFULLY ends the stock (assuming it's against a fast faller.)




Not even close, sorry. While Falcon's only hard MUs are Fox/Falco/Sheik, they're at the very least winnable and he has even and advantageous MUs later down the tier list. Doc doesn't even remotely go even with any top tier besides ICs, which he barely loses to. Puff is definitely not even IMO due to Puff's insane aerial control, the ability to cancel pills with one bair, range and a whole lot of other ugly stuff. Fishing in for the fair is a lot harder than what people make it out to be on Puff. Doc may have a decent rest punish, but what matters most is the neutral control, in which Puff wins indefinitely. Peach is Doc's absolute hardest MU, not even at all for a multitude of reasons. Falcon is not as hard as people say, but definitely not even and same goes to Sheik. Spacies is where Doc's punish game is the strongest, so I find it odd that you state that they're his hardest when Marth, Peach and Falcon are actually harder. In addition to it, I don't think Fox/Falco/Sheik are as bad for Falcon as Marth and Peach are for Doc, I honestly doubt that.

Doc may have a good punish game on most characters, but he lacks range and speed to make up for it. Doc has absurd neutral problems that a great punish game can't cover. Falcon is and will always be better than Doc until there's some revolutionary new tech that give Doc some stock free gimmick.

Wow, honestly, thanks for the criticism. Now that I think more about it, saying that was kind of absurd. I guess the MU thing was more of MY preference rather than the character's. I usually destroy Peach, Puff, and Sheik whereas I get boped by Spacies. I don't have much Falcon knowledge as it is, I shouldn't have put something that I am not knowledgeable about. My apologies Falcon players

 

[Wreckarooni]

Well I'm glad Sir Bubbles said it. I was going to say the same stuff but I doubt you would have had the same response hearing it from someone not kissing Doc's butt.

Honestly I doubt Falcon players took it seriously anyways. You have to remember how crappy your local scene might be, I mean if you have like 1-2 Peach/Puff/Sheik mains each.....they might just be terrible or clueless about the MU.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think doc's lack of high level players, not to mention speed and range, are going to make him fall this time. I also think Mario is objectively worse than Doc; the increase in range doesn't make up for worse moves for killing (bair and fair in particular) or worse projectile.

Luigi has a legitimate chance of being the highest of the Mario Bros. I'm not sure Luigi's matchups with spacies are much better on paper, but in practice it seems more winnable. Plus there are 2-3 high level players coming up with new things and proving theory with results.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

That's some bad bs you got there

I dont think you got the joke

 

[Fortress]

In my opinion. Don't go lower than D if you're expecting to go anywhere, and if you decide to go as low as D, you'd better be ready to put in some serious time with the game before expecting any major strides (even with three years under my belt, my Link is simply not capable of competing at even a state level here).

Higher tiers tend to have the huge combos and excellent options in neutral, especially against other high tiers, but from what I've watched and played the lower-tiers tend to have solid defensive options and can even fight around the high tiers in ways that make the high tiers have to exploit other strengths. That's just my opinion, though.

Also, in my opinion, I don't think that the gaps between B and C tiers are that wide, I'd go as far as to refer to the B-Tier as the Bminus-Tier or something, but that's just me. In any case, B and C-tiers are pretty close to one another to me.

S-Tier (Superb movement options and great buttons in neutral; reward heavily outweighs technical requirements)






A-Tier (Consistent historical positive matchups, solid movement and options with which to interact with opponent; reward versus technical requirements may not be as heavy as S-Tier, but are still obvious)



(I still believe that he's top-8 material, no lower than top-10 for sure)
(he seems to be moving up in many player's opinions, but I'm still a little unsure sticking him in 8th (only doing so because I see him more than I.C.s nowadays)

B-Tier (Consistent exposure at high-level of play, but require high knowledge of the game and a technical development to make up for disadvantages (movement from A to B can also be reflected by current character exposure in the professional level))

(Could probably still be top-8, but I see more Pikachu up there lately (or, at the very least, getting tournament exposure); if I'm wrong I'm wrong)


(EDIT: I agree that we might see him fall soon; I'd go as far to say Y.Link could swap spots with him)

C-Tier (Certain advantages over high-tiers, or accessible toolkit; requires an even greater level of skill than the B-Tier to fully take advantage of strengths and work around C-Tier weaknesses; sometimes seen as effective counterpick characters)


(moving on up, but aMSa has been playing since the beginning of time, your local Yoshi mains have not)



D-Tier (Requires extensive knowledge of mechanics and an extremely developed ability to play in the neutral game to take advantage of weaknesses; not often seen in higher placements beyond local scenes, reflecting the level of knowledge and development the player must have to effectively use these characters)






E-Tier (Disadvantages so-heavily outweigh strengths that the player might consider another pick; somebody else on the list usually does what these characters do and more effectively; upsets have occurred in the past, but are extremely few and far between even among longtime veterans of these characters, and are near-unheard of at the highest echelons of play)

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

Good out of 10
(he seems to be moving up in many player's opinions, but I'm still a little unsure sticking him in 8th (only doing so because I see him more than I.C.s nowadays)

Now be honest who is a signifigant Pikachu main other than Axe
He's the Shroomed of Pikachu

All we need is Shroomed MK 2 and Doc will be on his way to S tier

 

[Dire Creeper]

How much will our votes count compared to votes from MIOM's top 100?

 

[Wreckarooni]

Now be honest who is a signifigant Pikachu main other than Axe
He's the Shroomed of Pikachu

All we need is Shroomed MK 2 and Doc will be on his way to S tier

Pikachad (in top 100 MIOM) and N64.....Ask yourself that same question - Where are the significant Doc mains at? (and I've already considered Imyt and Reason)

And you still have Axe going strong ranked 7th on MIOM rankings.....You Doc supporters are talking about some hypothetical future and Meta as your basis. The tier list reflects what's going on now. If you are going to boost Yoshi so much because of one person; Amsa, then it's sort of silly to try and use Axe as a point against Pikachu. It becomes obvious bias.

How much will our votes count compared to votes from MIOM's top 100?

They won't count toward the same tier list. It will be part of a separate community tier list which won't really be official in any capacity.

 

[MarthZ]

Note: as this is my first time voting on tier list spots some spots are gonna be **** and I might be drunk when i put them there

God tier
1.Fox
2.Marth
3.Falco
4.Shiek
5.puff
6.falcon
7.peach

Upper tier
8.Ganon
9.ICs
10.Pikachu
11.Dr.mario
12.Luigi
13.Mario
14.YL
15.Samus

Mid tier
16.Link
17.Expand Dong
18.Roy
19.Ness

Low tier
20.Yoshi
21.Mewtwo
22.Zelda
23.G%W

Bottom tier
24.Pichu
25.Bowser
26.Kirby

 

[Fuerzo]

...Samus below Young Link? Haven't seen that one before.

 

[EddyBearr]

I've been won over that Pikachu's d-tilt is enough, and I've been won over by his results. Keep him 10th, but he's definitely not better than Samus/Falcon/IC's (9-7 imo).

Axe is obviously amazing, PikaChad was obviously significant. N64 came out of nowhere and did well, and there are other Pikachus around who could "come out of nowhere and do well". ESAM could have easily played Pikachu in Melee and still been top 100, and Kels has made Pikachu work. With all this said, the character still sucks and shouldn't win consistently.

 

[keymanb]

I pretty much agree. I made that post to point out that, sure, you can list out a bunch of moves Pichu has -- but you can do the exact same for Kirby. I didn't agree with the premise that Pichu necessarily has more tools than Kirby.




I think it's less that he's underdeveloped and more that he sucks.

Notice also the fact that sakurai specifically designed kirby to be the worst character in melee.

@Spaghetti Sammy I most likely didn't, explain?

 

[Wreckarooni]

Notice also the fact that miyamoto specifically designed kirby to be the worst character in melee.

@Spaghetti Sammy I most likely didn't, explain?

Well I think ya mean Sakurai, since he worked on Melee and is the creator of Kirby

But in the game it actually states that Pichu was intentionally designed just as a handicapped character to use when you are too good for your friends. Kirby was accidentally nerfed too hard from 64 to Melee, still not the worst by a long shot though

 

[keymanb]

Well I think ya mean Sakurai, since he was lead on Melee and is the creator of Kirby

But in the game it actually states that Pichu was intentionally designed just as a handicapped character to use when you are too good for your friends. Kirby was accidentally nerfed too hard from 64 to Melee, still not the worst by a long shot though

Edited T_T#

 

[Fortress]

Now be honest who is a signifigant Pikachu main other than Axe
He's the Shroomed of Pikachu

All we need is Shroomed MK 2 and Doc will be on his way to S tier

Yeah, I wasn't that sure about putting him where I put him. I honestly don't think he's top-8 material, but, he's a lot less gimmicky than Yoshi which leads me to believe that he can actually be top-10 at the very least. I put him where I put him because I'm hearing more about him lately than I.C.s.

 

[EddyBearr]

I put him where I put him because I'm hearing more about him lately than I.C.s.

I don't see how this is even possible. Sure, Axe is getting top 3 at regionals -- so will Nintendude, Wobbles, and Fly. This totally ignores other, far lesser, IC's making waves at regionals, such as Dizzkidboogie. IC's did far better at Apex. There are 3 IC's players who are arguably top 20, one Pikachu player who's in the top 100+ active players.

How exactly are you "hearing more about [Pikachu] lately than I.C.s."?

 

[Hooooots]

S Tier
1.
2.
3.

A tier
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.

B tier
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.

C Tier
16.
17.
18.

D tier
19.
20.
21.
22.

F tier
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[Hooooots]

I'm a bit biased I suppose, but I think Doc is fairly underrated in the current meta just cause Shroomed switched.

Shroomed still managed to do very well during that Sheik gauntlet back at Apex 2012 WITHOUT the chain grab. He beat KK, Overtriforce and lost to M2K. He played each of those sets back to back to back against some of the best Sheiks in the world. Sheik is popularly seen as Doc's worst matchup and he made it work.

While Shroomed was great, he didn't use all of Doc's tools.

Some things Shroomed never really did with Doc:
- cape in the neutral or cape shenanigans in general, not including edge guarding
- d-tilt reverse edge guards
- safe up-b escapes
- using up-b in general to finish combos
- up-b cancels
- chain throw DI traps
- full hop, fast fall n-air edge guards

That's just a few things off the top of my head. Doc, while not in the top 9 characters by any means, is still an under developed character.

I love all those things you listed. The big one which I see is very important for DOC and making him a threat his the ability to start reading attacks in neutral and caping them. Cape causes damage and 180's them... Super underused by a lot of docs. Also I support the use of dtilt by edge at liek 60%+ a lot its most the time a gimp.

Also a lot of people are under estimating docs gimp potential he has so many options with back air and cape alone ,let alone other parts of his kit which are for certain scenarios...

 

[Max?]

So much scrubdom in this thread lol. Hopefully this tier list when it is all said and done will be ignored by people who ACTUALLY compete in tournaments lolll. A few things tho:

Who thinks Doc has an amazing punish game? It's subpar at best, and relies on a ton of hard reads. He has good tools available to him, but on the whole Luigi, Pika, Samus and potentially Yoshi are better. It's cute that he has 0-death CGs on certain characters, and a good grab game on most of the cast, but actually getting grabs with him is soo freaking hard, and really requires one outplaying their opponent.

I say this as the current "best" Doc main. People do not pay attention to Tristate results. In the last year when I was actually active I was easily Top 10 in the region and going through the GAR PR when it's done will prove that. While I'm by no means as good as Shroomed (who in general is just a phenomenal player who chose to use Doc, and in certain instances didn't even play him optimally), I've beaten a large number of Top 100 players from all over the world using him, and on the whole it goes ignored.

Oh well, he's trash and Luigi is def better anyway LOL. Carry on folks

 

[Dire Creeper]

I've watched several matches with Doc/Luigi and I haven't seen many players use chain throws with them (probably due to grab range). Doc and Luigi definitely have pretty damaging chain throws on Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, etc. I feel if they used chain throws more often, they'd be a bit more threatening. Same goes for other characters.

 

[Wreckarooni]

So much scrubdom in this thread lol. Hopefully this tier list when it is all said and done will be ignored by people who ACTUALLY compete in tournaments lolll. A few things tho:

Who thinks Doc has an amazing punish game? It's subpar at best, and relies on a ton of hard reads. He has good tools available to him, but on the whole Luigi, Pika, Samus and potentially Yoshi are better. It's cute that he has 0-death CGs on certain characters, and a good grab game on most of the cast, but actually getting grabs with him is soo freaking hard, and really requires one outplaying their opponent.

I say this as the current "best" Doc main. People do not pay attention to Tristate results. In the last year when I was actually active I was easily Top 10 in the region and going through the GAR PR when it's done will prove that. While I'm by no means as good as Shroomed (who in general is just a phenomenal player who chose to use Doc, and in certain instances didn't even play him optimally), I've beaten a large number of Top 100 players from all over the world using him, and on the whole it goes ignored.

Oh well, he's trash and Luigi is def better anyway LOL. Carry on folks

Well I mean what do you expect this thread is open to anyone, even if they started playing Melee yesterday (or don't even own the game).

I think the important thing to remember no matter you're character bias or skill level is to be self-aware. Most die hard non-top tiers never even try top tiers so they are clueless as to how much their character is actually lacking in comparison. And 99% of the time they will bash other characters that are probably better even though they have never even played them before. The other issue is that most noobs to this game don't realize how bad their local scene might be or how inexperienced and unknowledgeable they actually are. Thankfully it seems like most in this thread see their limits or at least recognize it in hindsight. Unfortunately there are still others that are borderline delusional/unintelligent that wouldn't get it if the Smash Gods themselves explained it to them.

The key for people who are competent is to not take what they say too seriously. Like when someone puts Young Link above Samus....why even ask them for their logic. You know the answer isn't going to make sense :\

 

[blargh257]

So much scrubdom in this thread lol. Hopefully this tier list when it is all said and done will be ignored by people who ACTUALLY compete in tournaments lolll.

There's always the top player one, that might actually be somewhat accurate.

Doc has no range.
The idea that cape would be any good in neutral is terrible because if it misses, and it will if you do it too much (maybe more than once) the opponent gets their choice from a wide variety of hits.
The other characters in mid tier have more options against more characters and are better.

 

[Hooooots]

So much scrubdom in this thread lol. Hopefully this tier list when it is all said and done will be ignored by people who ACTUALLY compete in tournaments lolll. A few things tho:

Who thinks Doc has an amazing punish game? It's subpar at best, and relies on a ton of hard reads. He has good tools available to him, but on the whole Luigi, Pika, Samus and potentially Yoshi are better. It's cute that he has 0-death CGs on certain characters, and a good grab game on most of the cast, but actually getting grabs with him is soo freaking hard, and really requires one outplaying their opponent.

I say this as the current "best" Doc main. People do not pay attention to Tristate results. In the last year when I was actually active I was easily Top 10 in the region and going through the GAR PR when it's done will prove that. While I'm by no means as good as Shroomed (who in general is just a phenomenal player who chose to use Doc, and in certain instances didn't even play him optimally), I've beaten a large number of Top 100 players from all over the world using him, and on the whole it goes ignored.

Oh well, he's trash and Luigi is def better anyway LOL. Carry on folks

And you say hes trash shame on you... he is not trash and he beats yoshi and samus and even luigi.... Let me see one of your best sets.....

 

[Max?]

In all fairness Doc can beat a fair amount of telegraphed approaches with SH cape. He can waveland out of it, so he has the option to approach in if it hits or WL away and retreat if he misses. Doc on paper is the best mid tier, but its so ****ing hard to actually execute these things. The fact that he relies on grabs so much to get things started holds him back by a fair amount, and his neutral in general is not that good. It's hard to actually gauge Pika and Yoshi as there is only one good player for each character respectively, while Samus and Luigi actually have good representation all over the country

And you say hes trash shame on you... he is not trash and he beats yoshi and samus and even luigi.... Let me see one of your best sets.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9povq7u8s vs. DJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwVrLcV3RgM vs. Hax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fu8pWnMeNs <-- Has two sets of me beating Dizzkidboogie and G$, too lazy to go through it and find timestamps.

Probably more, too lazy to take the time to find it

 

[Hooooots]

Well I mean what do you expect this thread is open to anyone, even if they started playing Melee yesterday (or don't even own the game).

I think the important thing to remember no matter you're character bias or skill level is to be self-aware. Most die hard non-top tiers never even try top tiers so they are clueless as to how much their character is actually lacking in comparison. And 99% of the time they will bash other characters that are probably better even though they have never even played them before. The other issue is that most noobs to this game don't realize how bad their local scene might be or how inexperienced and unknowledgeable they actually are. Thankfully it seems like most in this thread see their limits or at least recognize it in hindsight. Unfortunately there are still others that are borderline delusional/unintelligent that wouldn't get it if the Smash Gods themselves explained it to them.

The key for people who are competent is to not take what they say too seriously. Like when someone puts Young Link above Samus....why even ask them for their logic. You know the answer isn't going to make sense :\

I think it's messed up to say that someones answer is not going to make sense, Just because they aren't a god doesn't mean they aren't intelligent and understand the game.... It's ignorant to not even try and get someones view on something...

 

[Max?]

I think it's messed up to say that someones answer is not going to make sense, Just because they aren't a god doesn't mean they aren't intelligent and understand the game.... It's ignorant to not even try and get someones view on something...

So you think that someone who sits around and just watches streams has an opinion and understanding of the game that is equal to someone who actively plays vs. high/top level players and ACTUALLY goes to events and competes? Many people in the community now are stream monsters who have very little perspective on how this game actually works

 

[EddyBearr]

I think Doc is better than Luigi because Luigi has to commit much harder than Doc in the neutral game, making Luigi more exploitable.

 

[Max?]

I think Doc is better than Luigi because Luigi has to commit much harder than Doc in the neutral game, making Luigi more exploitable.

Can you site examples of this? I fail to see how a character who has more range, better mobility, a moveset that combos seemlessly into itself and into finishers, and does NOT need grabs to get things started has a worse neutral than someone who is short, stubby, has an insanely hard combo game that relies on grabs to get things started, and has a super gimmicky projectile that gets beaten by anyone who knows how to deal with it. Oh and his worse recovery.

Please enlighten me tho. I play both characters at a very high level. Perhaps you know somethings I do not

 

[EddyBearr]

Air movement (horizontal and vertical) are of course in Doc's favor, and Doc is able to get more movement done by simply dash dancing, which compared to a wavedash, is far fewer frames of commitment. Luigi's movement is speedy, but pretty linear, and Luigi needs more room to work in. I also think Doc's fast-fall crosses a.. "goodness threshold" (I view his dash dance and wavedash as doing this as well), whereas Luigi pretty much doesn't have a fast fall. If Doc wants to go on and/or off a platform, he can do that comparatively quickly. If Doc wants to make spacing adjustments, he can dash dance to far greater effect than Luigi. Similarly, while Doc's projectile isn't amazing and cape just isn't a projectile, Doc does have these very disjointed options while retaining options with them, whereas Luigi doesn't have that luxury.

 

[Wreckarooni]

Air movement (horizontal and vertical) are of course in Doc's favor, and Doc is able to get more movement done by simply dash dancing, which compared to a wavedash, is many frames of commitment. Luigi's movement is speedy, but pretty linear, and Luigi needs more room to work in. If Doc wants to go on and/or off a platform, he can do that comparatively quickly. If Doc wants to make spacing adjustments, he can dash dance to far greater effect than Luigi. Similarly, while Doc's projectile isn't amazing and cape just isn't a projectile, Doc does have these very disjointed options while retaining options with them, whereas Luigi doesn't have that luxury.

Maybe in the air during a FH or DJ Luigi can be vulnerable and possibly be seen as having to commit, but on the ground Luigi's WD allows him to attack right through enemies faster than they can even react. In the air Luigi still has a lot of options that have to be respected though. All his aerials have very small SAF windows, he can dair like 3 times in a jump and he has a much more useful Nair to escape combos/pressure and KO. In the air Doc only has Fair really as an actual KO option and it's slow, he's got bair as well for edge-guarding but Luigi has a powerful Dair, Fair, and Nair.

I don't think Doc's cape should even be used as a point since Luigi's WD tilts and smashes cover like 4 times the area in a much faster time and actually lead to KOs instead of possible retaliation (plus there's also sweet spot Luigi's Up-B, easy to WD into tech chase and punish laggy moves/recoveries). A great set I watch time and time again is the Abate vs Darkrain at TBH4, shows just how scary a Luigi can be and even when it's against a blazing fast character like CF.

Overall it might be pretty close so I don't think it's worth getting too argumentative about, but I would personally say Luigi has a much easier time KOing and recovering leading me to believe that he can do better than Doc. Not only that but just based on the results I've seen consistently at nationals from active high level Luigi mains (there's like 5) instead of just one retired Doc main.

 

[Dire Creeper]

Maybe in the air during a FH or DJ Luigi can be vulnerable and possibly be seen as having to commit, but on the ground Luigi's WD allows him to attack right through enemies faster than they can even react. In the air Luigi still has a lot of options that have to be respected though. All his aerials have very small SAF windows, he can dair like 3 times in a jump and he has a much more useful Nair to escape combos/pressure and KO. In the air Doc only has Fair really as an actual KO option and it's slow, he's got bair as well for edge-guarding but Luigi has a powerful Dair, Fair, and Nair.

I don't think Doc's cape should even be used as a point since Luigi's WD tilts and smashes cover like 4 times the area in a much faster time and actually lead to KOs instead of possible retaliation (plus there's also sweet spot Luigi's Up-B, easy to WD into tech chase and punish laggy moves/recoveries). A great set I watch time and time again is the Abate vs Darkrain at TBH4, shows just how scary a Luigi can be and even when it's against a blazing fast character like CF.

Overall it might be pretty close so I don't think it's worth getting too argumentative about, but I would personally say Luigi has a much easier time KOing and recovering leading me to believe that he can do better than Doc. Not only that but just based on the results I've seen consistently at nationals from active high level Luigi mains (there's like 5) instead of just one retired Doc main.

Abate also won his first S@X against Plank recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqlj4CghOzQ

 

[EddyBearr]

Maybe in the air during a FH or DJ Luigi can be vulnerable and possibly be seen as having to commit, but on the ground Luigi's WD allows him to attack right through enemies faster than they can even react. In the air Luigi still has a lot of options that have to be respected though. All his aerials have very small SAF windows, he can dair like 3 times in a jump and he has a much more useful Nair to escape combos/pressure and KO. In the air Doc only has Fair really as an actual KO option and it's slow, he's got bair as well for edge-guarding but Luigi has a powerful Dair, Fair, and Nair.

I don't think Doc's cape should even be used as a point since Luigi's WD tilts and smashes cover like 4 times the area in a much faster time and actually lead to KOs instead of possible retaliation (plus there's also sweet spot Luigi's Up-B, easy to WD into tech chase and punish laggy moves/recoveries). A great set I watch time and time again is the Abate vs Darkrain at TBH4, shows just how scary a Luigi can be and even when it's against a blazing fast character like CF.

Overall it might be pretty close so I don't think it's worth getting too argumentative about, but I would personally say Luigi has a much easier time KOing and recovering leading me to believe that he can do better than Doc. Not only that but just based on the results I've seen consistently at nationals from active high level Luigi mains (there's like 5) instead of just one retired Doc main.

4-5 frames jumpsquat, 10 frames wavedash lag, then 4 frames for f-tilt or 5 frames for D-Smash (assuming perfect distance, though it can also be longer if the distance has changed which is very likely given how movement heavy this game is).

This gives the opponent 15-20 frames to react with at least shield, if they're caught off-guard. If they read that Luigi-does-it-so-much approach, then they can react sooner and outright punish Luigi for being laggy.

Part of this stems from playing YL. As soon as I think Luigi will wavedash, I can throw a bomb, and if he does I get a guaranteed hit and likely hit-confirm, and if he didn't wavedash, he couldn't get to me anyway. The best defense Luigi had was putting up shield, which Young Link could easily abuse anyways. Doc (technically Mario experience, but I can definitely extrapolate), however, I'd have to work far harder, and actually be concerned that he'd use tighter and dynamic movement to close in on me.

I also think Doc's recovery is criminally under-rated. Pills force an open ledge and with good DI, Doc can get a pretty good angle. Shroomed had great DI, but it wouldn't have let him survive if edgeguarding Doc was free like it is for Falcon.

As for cape.. Boss vs Mew2King is a pretty good exhibition of it being an option (recent, S@X I think). I'd love how Boss would use it just for that extra attrition.

 

[Fortress]

I don't see how this is even possible. Sure, Axe is getting top 3 at regionals -- so will Nintendude, Wobbles, and Fly. This totally ignores other, far lesser, IC's making waves at regionals, such as Dizzkidboogie. IC's did far better at Apex. There are 3 IC's players who are arguably top 20, one Pikachu player who's in the top 100+ active players.

How exactly are you "hearing more about [Pikachu] lately than I.C.s."?

I just said 'hearing about him more lately'. It's totally opinion-based, and I've said a few times that I don't particularly agree with it. If IC's are top-8, they're top-8, I don't really mind if I have a bad pick. I think it's a bad pick.

 

[Comet7]

I just said 'hearing about him more lately'. It's totally opinion-based, and I've said a few times that I don't particularly agree with it. If IC's are top-8, they're top-8, I don't really mind if I have a bad pick. I think it's a bad pick.

if you think it is a bad pick then why did you put pika over IC's?

 

[Sir Tundra]

The key for people who are competent is to not take what they say too seriously. Like when someone puts Young Link above Samus....why even ask them for their logic. You know the answer isn't going to make sense :\

yeah or when someone puts ganondorf on top 8, or puts ness above DK

 

[keymanb]

Well I think ya mean Sakurai, since he worked on Melee and is the creator of Kirby

But in the game it actually states that Pichu was intentionally designed just as a handicapped character to use when you are too good for your friends. Kirby was accidentally nerfed too hard from 64 to Melee, still not the worst by a long shot though

And actually, what happened was Sakurai was criticized of extreme bias to the kirby series because of kirby being S tier in 64, his ultimate choice was to not add Dedede or Metaknight into the game, and nerf kirby to the point where he was made to be the worst character. Same thing happened in brawl with metaknight. I believe there is some dialogue of him saying that.

 

[keymanb]

yeah or when someone puts ganondorf on top 8, or puts ness above DK

Ganondorf in top 8, is semivalid, he should have some reasons why he did that, and it's not as crazy as putting YL over samus lol

 

[Hooooots]

There's always the top player one, that might actually be somewhat accurate.

Doc has no range.
The idea that cape would be any good in neutral is terrible because if it misses, and it will if you do it too much (maybe more than once) the opponent gets their choice from a wide variety of hits.
The other characters in mid tier have more options against more characters and are better.

I disagree if cape hits it gets you a good percent , Idk off the top of my head and it puts you in a good position to follow up. It also disorientates your opponent.

4-5 frames jumpsquat, 10 frames wavedash lag, then 4 frames for f-tilt or 5 frames for D-Smash (assuming perfect distance, though it can also be longer if the distance has changed which is very likely given how movement heavy this game is).

This gives the opponent 15-20 frames to react with at least shield, if they're caught off-guard. If they read that Luigi-does-it-so-much approach, then they can react sooner and outright punish Luigi for being laggy.

Part of this stems from playing YL. As soon as I think Luigi will wavedash, I can throw a bomb, and if he does I get a guaranteed hit and likely hit-confirm, and if he didn't wavedash, he couldn't get to me anyway. The best defense Luigi had was putting up shield, which Young Link could easily abuse anyways. Doc (technically Mario experience, but I can definitely extrapolate), however, I'd have to work far harder, and actually be concerned that he'd use tighter and dynamic movement to close in on me.

I also think Doc's recovery is criminally under-rated. Pills force an open ledge and with good DI, Doc can get a pretty good angle. Shroomed had great DI, but it wouldn't have let him survive if edgeguarding Doc was free like it is for Falcon.

As for cape.. Boss vs Mew2King is a pretty good exhibition of it being an option (recent, S@X I think). I'd love how Boss would use it just for that extra attrition.

I agree on the recovery

yeah or when someone puts ganondorf on top 8, or puts ness above DK

Ness is better then DK LMAO

 

[Sir Tundra]

Ganondorf in top 8, is semivalid, he should have some reasons why he did that, and it's not as crazy as putting YL over samus lol

while ganondorf being higher then ice climbers and pikachu are not as crazy as having young link higher then samus it's still very questionable.

Ness is better then DK LMAO

If you were talking about smash 4 then I would agree 100% with that. But sadly this is melee, so in that regards plz clarify or show a past post on why you think ness is better then dk in melee