Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[ItsChon]

My thoughts below. I omitted the Icies because I don't believe they're good enough to be considered S Tier though I do believe they are number 8. I didn't bother to go past this because I'm not qualified enough to really have much of an opinion on any of the characters below the top 8. Feedback would be nice, and I'd be happy to go more in depth into my reasoning for anyone who wishes to know.
S Tier:
1. Fox: Undeniably the best character in the current meta. Has the most favorable match up spread, is consistently placing high in major tournaments, and has one of the best move sets out of any character in the game. The 20XX movement was started for a reason. Not much else to say about this, it's pretty standard.

2. Marth: This might seem controversial to some, but I think that my reasoning behind having Marth as second is fairly sound. Just going through the "Top 8", he has an even if not favorable match up under certain circumstances against Fox, an even mmatch up against Falco, a rapidly improving match up against Shiek which really wasn't all that bad to begin with. A good match up against Peach which has only become easier in the passing years, improving match up against Jigglypuff. So much so that pretty much the only Jigglypuff player (HBox) actually doing anything in nationals is getting beaten by PewPewU and Dr. Pee Pee. As well as a good if not favorable MU against CF. This accompanied by the fact that Marth is actually being represented by more then one person goes to show that he truly is deserving of that number two spot.

3. Falco: Falco is undeniably a good character. He posses a wide variety of options in the neutral game, has great match ups against many other characters, as well as multiple options to close out a stock. The problem is that he is sorely underrepresented. Falco is pretty much only represented by Dr. PeePee and Westballz when it comes to major tournaments. And with PeePee possibly making the switch over to Marth, problems will begin to arise. I simply see more things being done with Marth as well as better tournament results which is why I placed him at the number three spot. Innovations are constantly being made when it comes to the Marth metagame, we've yet to really see anything like that being done with Falco.

4. Shiek: Average match ups against the space animals. While they aren't to her favor, they certainly aren't unwinnable. An even/favorable match up against Marth depending on who you talk to, and good match ups against Jiggs, CF, and Peach place Shiek at the number four spot. With people like Kirby Kaze, Shroomed, Kira, and even M2K playing her and doing fairly well in Major tournaments, this seems to be about right.

5. Peach: I think anyone placing Jigglypuff above Peach must be out of their ****ing mind. Other then HBox, when is the last time we've really ever see anyone do well with a Jigglypuff much less make it to Top 8? At least Armada isn't the only Peach out there. MacD is a decent player who has made the Top 8 of a few national major tournaments. This combined with Peaches track record against the other characters in the top 8? I think she's a shoe in for the number 5 spot. While Armada consistently beats Foxes and Falco's playing at the top level with Peach, we've seen HBox struggle and lose against Foxes who are several spots below him in the MIOM Top 100 list. Just another reason why Peach is better than Jigglypuff.

6. Jigglypuff: I went over a lot of the issues have with Jigglypuff up in the Peach section. With only one person representing JP as well as poor MU's against the spacies and a rapidly degenerating one against Marth. I think it's safe to say Jiggly push has seen better times.

7. Captain Falcon: Captain Falcon is a hard character to place. He's seen better days and lately no one has really done very well with CF. And by very well I mean make the Top 8 of a major tournament. I decided on giving CF the seventh spot however due to potential. I mean, his MU's against the rest of the Top 8 are fairly decent, and most all of them (except for Falco) are winnable. And I don't really think anyone has really unlocked CF' s true ability. His metagame still has a long way to go, and at this point I think it can only go up. Plus, I don't believe that people have done enough with either Pikachu or Samus to justify putting them above Falcon. Though putting him in the S Tier could be argued.

 

[Wreckarooni]

5. Peach: I think anyone placing Jigglypuff above Peach must be out of their ****ing mind. Other then HBox, when is the last time we've really ever see anyone do well with a Jigglypuff much less make it to Top 8? At least Armada isn't the only Peach out there. MacD is a decent player who has made the Top 8 of a few national major tournaments. This combined with Peaches track record against the other characters in the top 8? I think she's a shoe in for the number 5 spot. While Armada consistently beats Foxes and Falco's playing at the top level with Peach, we've seen HBox struggle and lose against Foxes who are several spots below him in the MIOM Top 100 list. Just another reason why Peach is better than Jigglypuff.

6. Jigglypuff: I went over a lot of the issues have with Jigglypuff up in the Peach section. With only one person representing JP as well as poor MU's against the spacies and a rapidly degenerating one against Marth. I think it's safe to say Jiggly push has seen better times.

Your reasoning for these two don't make much sense to me, especially concerning the points you bring up. Armada uses Fox as a main now, MacD has never gotten top 8 at nationals (???) and HBox is still active and is considered one of the Gods with the character. Mango propelled Puff to his current position (King and Darc originated), Mango could probably still take 1st and definitely top 5 with Puff at nationals. Idea has gotten 7th at McSmashter 4 (one of the largest Canadian majors and nationals with Armada and other internationals) and s0ft placed 7th at Apex 2014.

Spacies aren't a worse MU for Puff than they are for Peach, and the Marth MU is not "a rapidly degenerating one" (???). In fact it's the opposite as evidenced by pretty much every single recent set with high level Marth users (grab? Crouch > rest. Jab or miss a smash / tilt? Crouch or jump in > rest.).

You make it sound like Peach is hand of fist above Puff, truly that's a ridiculous thing to say. "I think anyone placing Jigglypuff above Peach must be out of their ****ing mind"......such an odd statement to make.

 

[Stratocaster]

MacD got top 8 at Sandstorm and I'm Not Yelling, which should count as Nationals. If you're only counting EVO/Apex level stuff as Nationals, he has barely missed top 8 at Apex 2012 and 2014. His overall achievements outweigh the second best Puff's achievements pretty easily.

Between Puff and Peach, I think it depends how you look at it.

If you look at who has had more success overall at the highest level, Armada's Peach is definitely more successful than Hungrybox's Puff, and Mango hasn't mained Puff in over 5 years, so his play is no longer relevant to a 2015 tier list.

If you look at how many players have had success with Peach vs Puff. Peach again has the upper hand. MIOM's 2014 rankings has the following Peaches and Puffs:
Peach: Armada (2), MacD (25), Bladewise (33), Kalamazhu (40), Darkatma (52), Vanz (59), Excel Zero (60), Hanky Panky (71), DoH (79), Connerthekid (93), and Azusa (96)
note: Armada, Darkatma, Vanz, and Connorthekid are co-mains.
Puff: Hungrybox (5), Darc (55), and Soft (64)
Clearly a lot more Peach mains are able to find success than Puff mains, and I think that this should definitely be considered.

If you look at the head-to-head, I think it's clear Puff wins out.

If you look at who has the least crippling match-up, I think Fox beats Puff harder than Fox, Puff, or Marth beat Peach. I think this makes it harder to go all-Puff than all-Peach because you are going to run into Foxes, and that match-up is TERRIBLE for Puff, but less terrible for Peach, IMO.

If you look at the overall match-up spread, I think Puff has a more even spread against the other high tiers (better against Sheik, Marth, etc.) On the other hand, Peach wrecks low tiers, and Puff not as much.

Another thing you may say is "Armada switched to Fox, and Hungrybox has not," but that's not really a fair assessment of their characters as Hungrybox has less of a choice. Hungryfox isn't very good, so he is better off staying. Also, Armada has chosen to switch more because it's easier/gives him a better chance than because it's impossible. Leffen was the one who really made him switch primarily, and it was kind of pre-mature considering Armada beat him as recently as Dec 2014 (Beauty 9) with Peach. He can win with Peach, he's just more likely to win with Fox.

Anyway, I'm done. I think Peach has shown better results in several ways, but in theory Puff might be better outside of the worse (IMO) Fox match-up.

 

[Wreckarooni]

MacD got top 8 at Sandstorm and I'm Not Yelling, which should count as Nationals. If you're only counting EVO/Apex level stuff as Nationals, he has barely missed top 8 at Apex 2012 and 2014. His overall achievements outweigh the second best Puff's achievements pretty easily.

Between Puff and Peach, I think it depends how you look at it.

If you look at who has had more success overall at the highest level, Armada's Peach is definitely more successful than Hungrybox's Puff, and Mango hasn't mained Puff in over 5 years, so his play is no longer relevant to a 2015 tier list.

If you look at how many players have had success with Peach vs Puff. Peach again has the upper hand. MIOM's 2014 rankings has the following Peaches and Puffs:
Peach: Armada (2), MacD (25), Bladewise (33), Kalamazhu (40), Darkatma (52), Vanz (59), Excel Zero (60), Hanky Panky (71), DoH (79), Connerthekid (93), and Azusa (96)
note: Armada, Darkatma, Vanz, and Connorthekid are co-mains.
Puff: Hungrybox (5), Darc (55), and Soft (64)
Clearly a lot more Peach mains are able to find success than Puff mains, and I think that this should definitely be considered.

If you look at the head-to-head, I think it's clear Puff wins out.

If you look at who has the least crippling match-up, I think Fox beats Puff harder than Fox, Puff, or Marth beat Peach. I think this makes it harder to go all-Puff than all-Peach because you are going to run into Foxes, and that match-up is TERRIBLE for Puff, but less terrible for Peach, IMO.

If you look at the overall match-up spread, I think Puff has a more even spread against the other high tiers (better against Sheik, Marth, etc.) On the other hand, Peach wrecks low tiers, and Puff not as much.

Another thing you may say is "Armada switched to Fox, and Hungrybox has not," but that's not really a fair assessment of their characters as Hungrybox has less of a choice. Hungryfox isn't very good, so he is better off staying. Also, Armada has chosen to switch more because it's easier/gives him a better chance than because it's impossible. Leffen was the one who really made him switch primarily, and it was kind of pre-mature considering Armada beat him as recently as Dec 2014 (Beauty 9) with Peach. He can win with Peach, he's just more likely to win with Fox.

Anyway, I'm done. I think Peach has shown better results in several ways, but in theory Puff might be better outside of the worse (IMO) Fox match-up.

Okay I see your points but you basically agree with me overall except for your conclusion. My main point is it was really silly to call placing Puff above Peach crazy as if there was some massive chasm separating the two's viability. Again this makes me laugh ""I think anyone placing Jigglypuff above Peach must be out of their ****ing mind"

You also misuse MIOM rankings a bit, some of those smashers you listed also frequently use other characters besides Peach like Fox and Sheik to win tournaments. And actually Darkatma used Fox/Sheik primarily through the tournaments that he placed well, no Peach at all. His most recent placings have been 65th at Apex 2015 and Evo 2104, Big House 3 he used all Sheik, APex 2014 all Fox/Sheik.

I agree Puff has better MUs against Marth and Sheik, and can best Peach as well. Puff has a better spread against top tiers (I tend to agree with those that think Peach and Puff have about the same adv/disav against spacies)

I disagree with the whole Peach wrecks low tiers, Peach has difficulty against YL and Link as does Puff which is worse is up for debate. If you want to say Peach destroys low tiers well the same has to be true for Puff then.

I'd also like to add that Puff absolutely destroys in teams compared to Peach, even if you don't follow teams this is very easy to acknowledge.

I personally disagree about the mains and placings to such extreme degree.... if two separate people can place 7th with a character and you also have a third top player consistently still placing even higher compared to one main and a partially retired main getting top placement....I don't see how that could mean Peach is LEAPS and BOUNDS better. I can see someone thinking one is a bit ahead of the other but it's not like some massive divide.

As for the "Peach" mains that actually use other characters as well to win tournaments, that of course means their wins that count toward their rankings is based on wins without Peach.

Armada (2) - Fox of course
Darkatma (52) - Sheik and Fox, No Peach with significant placings
Vanz (59) - Sheik
Connerthekid (93) - Fox

 

[Stratocaster]

I just corrected out your one point about MacD, and wanted to flesh out a comparison while I was at it.

I said in my post that those players are co-mains. I explicitly stated it. I don't know the exact spread of their character use this year. You can remove Darkatma, Vanz, and Conner if you like, and the advantage in that comparison still leans towards Peach significantly. Even just MacD, Bladewise, and Kalamazhu outweigh Darc and Soft.

IC's: Pretty well recognized Peach - IC's is like 70:30 while Puff is pretty even. (See: Armada over Fly, Wobbles over Hbox)
Doc: Peach bodies Doc less than IC's, but it's still a very advantageous match-up. Puff goes pretty even/slight advantage (See: Armada vs Shroomed, Shroomed vs Soft)
Pika: Probably less pronounced than Doc, 65:35 Peach, 60:40 Puff (See: Armada over Axe, Axe over HBox (EVO14)
Samus: I think they both beat Samus pretty well, but Plup has taken sets off HBox with Samus before.
Yoshi: aMSa has said Peach is tied for his worst match-up at 65:35 and Puff is only 50:50 (though she is probably at least 55:45)
Luigi: I've watched Abate beat Soft and lose to Baka4moe (at the time a GA Peach of equal or less skill than Soft)
Link/YLink: We watched Puff lose to YLink for a while, and I watched Soft be beat by a Link (Pikachad). I have never seen Armada, MacD, Bladewise, Kalamazhu, or basically any quality Peach lose to a Y/Link. I even played that match-up myself vs our local YLink main. Peach wins that match-up pretty convincingly.

Ok so those are sort of mid-tiers, but I guess that's what I meant. Anyway those are my opinions on the match-ups based on what I've seen, if you're not convinced, that's fine. My opinion is also not completely based on what I just said, that's just all that's worth typing.

Peach and Puff are both amazing in teams. Armada and MacD have both had incredible success. Puff is probably better, but I don't see a huge chasm.

Anyway

I put Puff above Peach in my tier list. It's mostly because I think she does better vs. top tiers and is under-utilized. In theory, Puff seems better to me. Puff still beats all the mid/low tiers, they just aren't as free IMO. I do think that Peach's current performance is better than Puff's. So if you base your list on who has done better, I think it has to be Peach. If you make your list based on who IS better, I think it's Puff, but it's debate-able.

At the end of the day... Fox beats both, lol.

 

[Wreckarooni]

I said in my post that those players are co-mains. I explicitly stated it.

I saw that, but then you kept saying "peach mains", "these peach mains" "more peach mains than Puff mains". I just was thinking "why use them then? It's contradictory and one doesn't even use Peach as ranked" I might be a bit lopsided on this but I still think the fact that 2 separate all Puff mains getting 7th at large nationals is equivalent if not more impressive than one singular Peach main getting 7th twice, both at smaller nationals. Those other ranked Peach players had placings ranging from 47th to 25th - 49th and one 9th....as we all know the higher up you go especially in the top 10 it get exponentially more difficult. I think it's close but I would call it about even considering the representation difference and character usage difference. I think Puff and Peach are extremely close in how they perform.

Link/YLink: We watched Puff lose to YLink for a while, and I watched Soft be beat by a Link (Pikachad). I have never seen Armada, MacD, Bladewise, Kalamazhu, or basically any quality Peach lose to a Y/Link. I even played that match-up myself vs our local YLink main. Peach wins that match-up pretty convincingly.

Uh I'm sorry convincingly? What? Axe beat MacD AND Bladewise with Young Link and Chudat barely lost to DoH using Young Link (game 5, last stock like 20% difference). There aren't too many more examples since it's a rarer MU, but using your personal match doesn't really mean anything since I doubt 1 random local Young Link main is even comparable to anything close to the scope we are discussing.

Peach and Puff are both amazing in teams. Armada and MacD have both had incredible success. Puff is probably better, but I don't see a huge chasm.

I guess we disagree on this too, since Puff has the ability to rest after grab release, and rest off team combos, or just rest set up herself and then have no punishment since your partner can reset you afterwards (it's like a guilt free 1 frame, 26 frame invincible 28% move in doubles). Also the ability to go so deep and help you partner recover multiple times to ledge, offensively she can be anywhere on the screen awaiting a confirm on a combo. I also feel there is so much precision to Puff and her hitboxes are generous but very focused, helping to keep FF minimal. Mew2King and Hbox pretty much dominate any doubles national they enter, it's usually never even close. If I'm not mistaken they are pretty much undefeated in the 7-8 nationals they teamed up for, and Hbox seems to almost always win doubles no matter who he teams with.

Anyway

I put Puff above Peach in my tier list. It's mostly because I think she does better vs. top tiers and is under-utilized. In theory, Puff seems better to me. Puff still beats all the mid/low tiers, they just aren't as free IMO. I do think that Peach's current performance is better than Puff's. So if you base your list on who has done better, I think it has to be Peach. If you make your list based on who IS better, I think it's Puff, but it's debate-able.

At the end of the day... Fox beats both, lol.

Yea agreed, I don't mean to come off argumentative so sorry if I do. I just don't understand some of the strange hyperbole people spout off about tier placements. These characters can be relatively close, but I see people say outlandish things as if one is a bottom tier and the other is top tier. No, not really they are pretty damn close most of the time. In most cases they are neck and neck like Marth/Falco for example.

 

[proxibomb]

I'm an absolute n00b when it comes to tier lists, but I thought I'd give it a try. Any critiques?

S Tier: (High level play usually uses these characters, will usually win tournaments)
1. Fox
2. Marth (Hard decision, but I feel Marth has more better MUs. Falco IS good, don't get me wrong, but it's the MUs that count)
3. Falco
4. Sheik
5. Peach
6. Captain Falcon
7. Ice Climbers
8. Jigglypuff (Very high amount of skill needed, and doesn't do well against most of the top tiers)

A Tier: (Debatable level, characters require extra hard training, but can do well. Not much representation)
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Dr. Mario
12. Yoshi (High tech skill, this is extremely debatable)
13. Luigi
14. Mario (debatable)

B Tier: (You'll seriously need lots of work to get these characters working. These will barely win tournaments)
15. Young Link
16. Ganondorf (Ganon is hype, but his MUs are just hard to work with)
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong

C Tier: (Almost impossible)
19. Roy
20. Ness
21. Mewtwo (Somewhat good juggle game, but extremely hard to use overall)
22. Mr. Game & Watch

D Tier: (Barely any viability. It's a deathwish)
23. Pichu (Juggles for days)
24. Bowser (DJ Nintendo, KO Kingpin, Eikelman)
25. Zelda
26. Kirby

 

[EddyBearr]

I have never seen Armada, MacD, Bladewise, Kalamazhu, or basically any quality Peach lose to a Y/Link. I even played that match-up myself vs our local YLink main. Peach wins that match-up pretty convincingly.

My Response:

Vs. Jigglypuff: (29W-31L)
Angelo (Young Link) vs Shiny (Jigglypuff)
**AR (Young Link) vs Gale (Jigglypuff) (game 5)
Armada (Young Link) vs Tekk (Jigglypuff)
Armada (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) TOP VIDEO
Armada (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) TOP VIDEO
Armada (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) TOP VIDEO
Armada (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) TOP VIDEO
**Armada (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) (games 2,3) TOP VIDEO
**Armada (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) (games 1,3,4,5) TOP VIDEO
**Armada (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) (games 3,4) TOP VIDEO
**Armada (Young Link) vs Thomas (Jigglypuff) (games 2,3)
Axe (Young Link) vs Dendy (Jigglypuff) TOP VIDEO
Axe (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) TOP VIDEO
**Axe (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) (game 1) TOP VIDEO
**Axe (Young Link) vs Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) (game 2) TOP VDEO
**Axe (Young Link) vs Darc (Jigglypuff) (game 1)
**DAP (Young Link) vs Frog (Jigglypuff) (game 2)
**Excel_Zero (Young Link) vs Dendy (Jigglypuff) (game 2)
Hero (Young Link) vs Mano (Jigglypuff)
Kizzo (Young Link) vs Hyuga (Jigglypuff)
**Laijin (Young Link) vs Ace of Flakes (Jigglypuff) (game 1)
**Laijin (Young Link) vs Prince Abu (Jigglypuff) (game 2) NEW
Lil Fumi (Young Link) vs Aero (Jigglypuff)
**Nice boat. (Young Link) vs K.F (Jigglypuff) (game 1)
Sora (Young Link) vs Darc (Jigglypuff)
Spood Beest (Young Link) vs Ace of Flakes (Jigglypuff)
**Tero (Young Link) vs Krisspear (Jigglypuff) (game 1)
**VaNz (Young Link) vs Idea (Jigglypuff) (games 1,3)
Zerothetheif (Young Link) vs Juanpi (Jigglypuff)

Vs. Peach: (39W-22L)
Axe (Young Link) vs MacD (Peach) (Games 1-3)
Axe (Young Link) vs MacD (Peach) TOP VIDEO
Axe (Young Link) vs Zuko (Peach) TOP VIDEO
Axe (Young Link) vs Silly Kyle (Peach) TOP VIDEO
Axe (Young Link) vs Silly Kyle (Peach) TOP VIDEO
**Axe (Young Link) vs Silly Kyle (Peach) (12:40 - 23:50)
**Axe (Young Link) vs Silly Kyle (Peach) (games 1,2,4)
**Axe (Young Link) vs Bladewise (Peach) (games 1,2,4) TOP VIDEO
**Axe (Young Link) vs Baka4moe (Peach) (games 1,3,4)
ChuDat (Young Link) vs DoH (Peach)
**ChuDat (Young Link) vs DoH (Peach) (set 1 games 1-3; set 2 games 2-4 - incomplete video?)
**ChuDat (Young Link) vs DoH (Peach) (incomplete video?)
**ChuDat (Young Link) vs DoH (Peach) (set 1 games 1-3; set 2 games 1,4,5)
**ChuDat (Young Link) vs DoH (Peach) (set 1 games 1,3,4; set 2 games 1,2)
**ChuDat (Young Link) vs DoH (Peach) (games 1,3)
**G$ (Young Link) vs Baka4moe (Peach) (game 2)
Laijin (Young Link) vs Cave Dweller (Peach)
Laijin (Young Link) vs DoH (Peach)
**NoirScythe (Young Link) vs PatCombo (Peach) (game 1)
Shingo (Young Link) vs LK (Peach)
Sora (Young Link) vs Solar (Peach)
**VaNz (Young Link) vs Hanky Panky (Peach) (game 2)

It feels as good for Young Link as it is good for Sheik, as a Sheik/YL dual main. Same for Puff & IC's actually.

 

[xed122]

I'm an absolute n00b when it comes to tier lists, but I thought I'd give it a try. Any critiques?

S Tier: (High level play usually uses these characters, will usually win tournaments)
1. Fox
2. Marth (Hard decision, but I feel Marth has more better MUs. Falco IS good, don't get me wrong, but it's the MUs that count)
3. Falco
4. Sheik
5. Peach
6. Captain Falcon
7. Ice Climbers
8. Jigglypuff (Very high amount of tech skill needed, and doesn't do well against most of the top tiers)

A Tier: (Debatable level, characters require extra hard training, but can do well. Not much representation)
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Dr. Mario
12. Yoshi (High tech skill, this is extremely debatable)
13. Luigi
14. Mario (debatable)

B Tier: (You'll seriously need lots of work to get these characters working. These will barely win tournaments)
15. Ganondorf (Look, Ganon is hype, but his MUs are just hard to work with)
16. Young Link
17. Roy
18. Donkey Kong
19. Link

C Tier: (Almost impossible)
20. Ness
21. Pichu (Juggles for days)
22. Mewtwo (Somewhat good juggle game, but extremely hard to use overall)
23. Game & Watch

D Tier: (No viability. It's a deathwish)
24. Zelda
25. Kirby
26. Bowser (Check KO Kingpin, nobody else. He's the only good player lol)

dont you consider that pichu placement should be lower and ganandorf higher consider that bisaro flame use it?

 

[proxibomb]

dont you consider that pichu placement should be lower and ganandorf higher consider that bisaro flame use it?

That's what I've thought, but the placements of the characters is so odd. The Pichu could probably move under Mewtwo, but is still better than G&W. Ganon could possibly switch with Mario, but that's as high as I would go.

 

[Dire Creeper]

I'm an absolute n00b when it comes to tier lists, but I thought I'd give it a try. Any critiques?

S Tier: (High level play usually uses these characters, will usually win tournaments)
1. Fox
2. Marth (Hard decision, but I feel Marth has more better MUs. Falco IS good, don't get me wrong, but it's the MUs that count)
3. Falco
4. Sheik
5. Peach
6. Captain Falcon
7. Ice Climbers
8. Jigglypuff (Very high amount of tech skill needed, and doesn't do well against most of the top tiers)

A Tier: (Debatable level, characters require extra hard training, but can do well. Not much representation)
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Dr. Mario
12. Yoshi (High tech skill, this is extremely debatable)
13. Luigi
14. Mario (debatable)

B Tier: (You'll seriously need lots of work to get these characters working. These will barely win tournaments)
15. Ganondorf (Look, Ganon is hype, but his MUs are just hard to work with)
16. Young Link
17. Roy
18. Donkey Kong
19. Link

C Tier: (Almost impossible)
20. Ness
21. Pichu (Juggles for days)
22. Mewtwo (Somewhat good juggle game, but extremely hard to use overall)
23. Game & Watch

D Tier: (No viability. It's a deathwish)
24. Zelda
25. Kirby
26. Bowser (Check KO Kingpin, nobody else. He's the only good player lol)

Don't forget DJ Nintendo. He's done awesome things with Bowser, including winning a S@X.

 

[proxibomb]

Don't forget DJ Nintendo. He's done awesome things with Bowser, including winning a S@X.

That's the thing with tier lists though. You can't have ONE person representing that one character. You'll be better getting at least two or three top players on the lists. Lower tiers are so hard to determine. Personally though, if you put DJN's Bowser against a top tier with good knowledge on tech skill, stage control, and mind games (the basics), DJN's Bowser wouldn't stand much of a chance.

When you place a character in a tier, you have to imagine the many MUs the character would have, and study closely. Top players are a great example to watch, but you can only so far with certain characters. Maybe some characters have some great potential and we don't know, who knows. I personally think you can't actually main Bowser in huge tournaments though, as it's so hard to actually win tournaments with.

 

[Dire Creeper]

I was just saying that there's more than one player dedicated to Bowser. Even when they lose against top players, it won't stop them from using him. And yeah, Bowser won't really win a major tournament unless you've got the mind of a TAS.

 

[Wreckarooni]

That's the thing with tier lists though. You can't have ONE person representing that one character. You'll be better getting at least two or three top players on the lists. Lower tiers are so hard to determine. Personally though, if you put DJN's Bowser against a top tier with good knowledge on tech skill, stage control, and mind games (the basics), DJN's Bowser wouldn't stand much of a chance.

When you place a character in a tier, you have to imagine the many MUs the character would have, and study closely. Top players are a great example to watch, but you can only so far with certain characters. Maybe some characters have some great potential and we don't know, who knows. I personally think you can't actually main Bowser in huge tournaments though, as it's so hard to actually win tournaments with.

Yes but you're ignoring your own argument when it comes to Pichu.

That's the thing with tier lists though. You can't have ONE person representing that one character.

Pichu has no real results, no real mains, no representation. Not even ONE on a local level....and all pros that seriously tried him gave up.

Also Bowser has David the Bowser Guy, Gimpyfish, Eikelmann, Iori, and DJ Nintendo as mentioned

 

[proxibomb]

Yes but you're ignoring your own argument when it comes to Pichu.



Pichu has no real results, no real mains, no representation. Not even ONE on a local level....and all pros that seriously tried him gave up.

Also Bowser has David the Bowser Guy, Gimpyfish, Eikelmann, Iori, and DJ Nintendo as mentioned

I should probably reconsider. I just feel that would have an easier time. I'll edit the list then.

 

[Comet7]

M2K does the same thing with pichu as dj does with bowser, beating players of at least equal skill to those who lost to dj. Kirby has triple r and cereal rabbit, who have done more work than the bowser mains. Everything with low tiers is hazy anyway since nobody knows their matchups and whether or not people get "good playered" if they lose to one or not.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm an absolute n00b when it comes to tier lists, but I thought I'd give it a try. Any critiques?

Jigglypuff (Very high amount of tech skill needed, and doesn't do well against most of the top tiers)

Jigglypuff (Very high amount of tech skill needed, and doesn't do well against most of the top tiers)

Jigglypuff (Very high amount of tech skill needed)

Jigglypuff (tech skill)

 

[Wreckarooni]

M2K does the same thing with pichu as dj does with bowser, beating players of at least equal skill to those who lost to dj. Kirby has triple r and cereal rabbit, who have done more work than the bowser mains. Everything with low tiers is hazy anyway since nobody knows their matchups and whether or not people get "good playered" if they lose to one or not.

If you would link me to these matches of M2K's Pichu beating/almost beating people of equal skill to people like DP, Unknown522, Chillindude, Bones, Sveet...that would be news to me.

M2K beats scrubs and noobs with Pichu from what I've seen, and there isn't equal representation like Bowser has with other mains/co-mains. It would be cool to see more rep for Pichu, but we don't. I agree on Kirby, that's why there really isn't a reason for Pichu to ever be above him at this point.

 

[the muted smasher]

Problem with Pichu is he is viable but not his punishment game and he has a very high tech skill curve. He is like 08 fox where he might be better than most low tiers, we won't see people playing at that level of slick movement and shffl pressure that it needs to work.

And just the fact he isn't fundmental ly shut down by things like sheik waiting, dd camping, floating, strong shield pressure (nair oos backwards grab and an amazing roll) is hard to discount when put side to side.

I mean I can nair in a way so I stuff out fox, s nair, has frame advantage and shine oos will whiff with a massive mix up game in empties, pull backs, cross ups and 2nd jump back jolts

Idk even if everyone agreed pichu had a small edge on fox in the neutral fox would still wreak pichu cause how light pichu hits

 

[Comet7]

If you would link me to these matches of M2K's Pichu beating/almost beating people of equal skill to people like DP, Unknown522, Chillindude, Bones, Sveet...that would be news to me.

M2K beats scrubs and noobs with Pichu from what I've seen, and there isn't equal representation like Bowser has with other mains/co-mains. It would be cool to see more rep for Pichu, but we don't. I agree on Kirby, that's why there really isn't a reason for Pichu to ever be above him at this point.

unknown wrecked dj's bowser the last time they played. i don't know if the vod is still on twitch, but he got 3 stocked iirc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqRc-nHnpmY m2k against an okay falcon. that guy isn't as good as someone like chillin but i'm lazy and don't feel like looking more. i know he also barely lost to mojo at a texas tourney with pichu yesterday (m2k gave up the freest of edgeguards).

 

[Spoice]

[quote="ItsChon, post: 19518719, member: 283241"
7. Captain Falcon: Captain Falcon is a hard character to place. He's seen better days and lately no one has really done very well with CF. And by very well I mean make the Top 8 of a major tournament. I decided on giving CF the seventh spot however due to potential. I mean, his MU's against the rest of the Top 8 are fairly decent, and most all of them (except for Falco) are winnable. And I don't really think anyone has really unlocked CF' s true ability. His metagame still has a long way to go, and at this point I think it can only go up. Plus, I don't believe that people have done enough with either Pikachu or Samus to justify putting them above Falcon. Though putting him in the S Tier could be argued.[/quote]
Gotta agree with this wholeheartedly. Falcon should just be in a tier between S and A at this point, his results and performances prove he is top 8 material on the list, but compared to other characters meta's, Falcon's is way behind in this day and age.

 

[Equal]

People should look at Falcon's matchup spread across the top 8:

Most people solidly agree that Fox and Falco beat Falcon solidly. We also know Falcon has the potential to tech-chase these characters and can potentially zero to death them off of a couple of reads. We saw S2J vs PPMD at Apex and it was down to the wire, with S2J mostly making simple mistakes.

Sheik has gone from being considered a hard counter for Falcon, from players (including Sheik players!) considering it to be completely even or barely Sheik favored. I tend to agree it's Sheik favored, but definitely close to an even matchup. Again we've seen S2J beat really good Sheik players like Kirbykaze repeatedly.

Does super well against Marth, we just saw today Gravy almost beat PewPewU, which would've been a huge upset. This has always been considered a good matchup for falcon players.

Peach; all Peach players including Armada think that Falcon beats Peach straight up. With the exception of Armada, Falcons have been dominating against Peach for awhile.

Puff - I think this is a matchup we don't really see very often, and most falcons are divided against it in terms of who wins, the general consensus is Puff wins, but it's not that a bad a matchup.

ICs- Everyone thinks ICs get destroyed by Falcon, and it's pretty much true. S2J and Mango both agree and have very positive records against ICs.

I think the evidence is there, Falcon does pretty well against most the cast including half of the Top 8 characters. And the losing matchups, he has strong tools to work with and is always able to create massive damage output. The results don't show it, I agree. But I think it's definitely possible for current Falcon's to improve more and lately the 20GX movement has gotten very large. It's really only a matter of time before Falcon starts placing better than he ever has before.

 

[Wreckarooni]

People seem to forget just how terrible Falcon's slow tech rolls and recovery are.

Those crippling problems will never change, he's where he's at for a reason. I don't see any elevation in placements or performance at nationals ever. There IS room to be more efficient with him but then again there is more room for the rest of the top tiers to grow even more. It's all relative and the top players of other top tiers will always adapt fast enough.

 

[proxibomb]

Jigglypuff (Very high amount of tech skill needed, and doesn't do well against most of the top tiers)

Jigglypuff (Very high amount of tech skill needed)

Jigglypuff (tech skill)

Oh, ****. I meant to say skill alone. My bad. :L

 

[proxibomb]

If you would link me to these matches of M2K's Pichu beating/almost beating people of equal skill to people like DP, Unknown522, Chillindude, Bones, Sveet...that would be news to me.

M2K beats scrubs and noobs with Pichu from what I've seen, and there isn't equal representation like Bowser has with other mains/co-mains. It would be cool to see more rep for Pichu, but we don't. I agree on Kirby, that's why there really isn't a reason for Pichu to ever be above him at this point.

I really wish I could have filmed or something, but at the recent tournament Smash n Splash, there were quite a few people who spacies, and also Pichu. I went for friendlies with this other person, and I'd always get up-throwed and combo'd continuously. This was practically the same for him and others players too.

Of course since it's Pichu, he'll lose to those really high in tech skill, but he was doing astonishingly well against most players. Now, that's one person, and I counted at three people who played Pichu at the tournament. All of them performed very similarly. Really wish I could show you gameplay though, as the dash dance mind games were amazing. Lol

(As for the matches, most were top tier MUs to people that seemed to be a better skill level than him. This one sheik player beat the Pichu dude I was talking about, so he altered switch. He beat spacies players, a Marth player, a Link player, but lost to a Sheik player)

Seriously though, it's a mad discussion for low tiers. They're controversial, and have little ground to start with. Despite the story above, I'd rather have more representation than like, the four or five people I saw using Pichu.

 

[Wreckarooni]

I really wish I could have filmed or something, but at the recent tournament Smash n Splash, there were quite a few people who spacies, and also Pichu. I went for friendlies with this other person, and I'd always get up-throwed and combo'd continuously. This was practically the same for him and others players too.

Of course since it's Pichu, he'll lose to those really high in tech skill, but he was doing astonishingly well against most players. Now, that's one person, and I counted at three people who played Pichu at the tournament. All of them performed very similarly. Really wish I could show you gameplay though, as the dash dance mind games were amazing. Lol

(As for the matches, most were top tier MUs to people that seemed to be a better skill level than him. This one sheik player beat the Pichu dude I was talking about, so he altered switch. He beat spacies players, a Marth player, a Link player, but lost to a Sheik player)

Seriously though, it's a mad discussion for low tiers. They're controversial, and have little ground to start with. Despite the story above, I'd rather have more representation than like, the four or five people I saw using Pichu.

Yea, but you have to realize what you just said is a perfect example of character bias and lack of knowledge of the other characters (or bias against them).....

For every Pichu you claim that can bop some local random low-mid level players using top tiers there are 100x more unrecorded matches of Kirby, Bowser, Mewtwo, Zelda, Game and Watch destroying low-mid level players using top tiers. It's all relative, it's not some conspiracy that Pichu is so low and you're not the first person to miraculously discover that Pichu might have CG or combos. People like Korean DJ and Unknown have been trying to use him on a high level since this game came out. I doubt you have 12+ years of knowledge and experience on them. All low tiers have something, but it's very limited and easily counteracted once you know the MU. Lack of options is usaully the leading cause to their placement, I mean 75% of Pichu's moves are unusable in a high level match.

Not only that but those you had put Pichu above initially actually already had much higher regional and national results like Mewtwo, Zelda, Game and Watch, etc.

 

[proxibomb]

Yea, but you have to realize what you just said is a perfect example of character bias and lack of knowledge of the other characters (or bias against them).....

For every Pichu you claim that can bop some local random low-mid level players using top tiers there are 100x more unrecorded matches of Kirby, Bowser, Mewtwo, Zelda, Game and Watch destroying low-mid level players using top tiers. It's all relative, it's not some conspiracy that Pichu is so low and you're not the first person to miraculously discover that Pichu might have CG or combos. People like Korean DJ and Unknown have been trying to use him on a high level since this game came out. I doubt you have 12+ years of knowledge and experience on them. All low tiers have something, but it's very limited and easily counteracted once you know the MU. Lack of options is usually the leading cause to their placement, I mean half o pichu's move are unusable in a high level match.

Not only that but those you had put Pichu above initially actually already had much higher regional and national results like Mewtwo, Zelda, Game and Watch, etc.

True, true. Working with low tiers is really hard, wish there was more representation. Also, just something to point out, what about M2K's statement regarding Pichu? I believe he's said that Pichu is a higher tier than his current 2013 placement, but still bottom tier. Any opinion on that?

Here's the link:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...iscusses-his-super-smash-bros-tier-list-pt-1/

 

[Wreckarooni]

True, true. Working with low tiers is really hard, wish there was more representation. Also, just something to point out, what about M2K's statement regarding Pichu? I believe he's said that Pichu is a higher tier than his current 2013 placement, but still bottom tier. Any opinion on that?

Here's the link:
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2014/...iscusses-his-super-smash-bros-tier-list-pt-1/

yes I read that article when it came out....

If you ask any of the top 100 or top placing players they will almost all say "don't trust M2K's opinions too much" he's been wrong about Mewtwo, he was wrong about Puff....both he had very strong opinions on that ended up being the complete opposite of what became true. He puts Zelda as almost dead last yet he took like 5-6 stocks off Mango in the Iron Man with his Zelda (some of Mango's really good characters too), but with Pichu I don't even think he took a full stock and M2K uses Pichu much more. (He also took like 3-4 stocks with his Bowser iirc)

The only person's opinion on all the characters I trust unwaveringly is DJ Nintendo. He is a Swiss Army knife of SSBM characters and all the MUs and exploits. It's extremely rare for him to lose to a lesser character/MU or be the victim of MU ignorance.

 

[proxibomb]

yes I read that article when it came out....

If you ask any of the top 100 or top placing players they will almost all say "don't trust M2K's opinions too much" he's been wrong about Mewtwo, he was wrong about Puff....both he had very strong opinions on that ended up being the complete opposite of what became true. He puts Zelda as almost dead last yet he took like 5-6 stocks off Mango in the Iron Man with his Zelda (some of Mango's really good characters too), but with Pichu I don't even think he took a full stock and M2K uses Pichu much more. (He also took like 3-4 stocks with his Bowser iirc)

The only person's opinion on all the characters I trust unwavering is DJ Nintendo. He is a Swiss Army knife of SSBM characters and all the MUs and exploits. It's extremely rare for him to lose to a lesser character/MU or be the victim of MU ignorance.

I'll take notes, work on a better tier list for myself then. Thanks for the input.

 

[Spoice]

Just out of curiosity, even though it probably won't ever happen, who does everyone think is the top contender to knock Fox down from his God tier status?

 

[Comet7]

Yea, but you have to realize what you just said is a perfect example of character bias and lack of knowledge of the other characters (or bias against them).....

For every Pichu you claim that can bop some local random low-mid level players using top tiers there are 100x more unrecorded matches of Kirby, Bowser, Mewtwo, Zelda, Game and Watch destroying low-mid level players using top tiers. It's all relative, it's not some conspiracy that Pichu is so low and you're not the first person to miraculously discover that Pichu might have CG or combos. People like Korean DJ and Unknown have been trying to use him on a high level since this game came out. I doubt you have 12+ years of knowledge and experience on them. All low tiers have something, but it's very limited and easily counteracted once you know the MU. Lack of options is usaully the leading cause to their placement, I mean 75% of Pichu's moves are unusable in a high level match.

Not only that but those you had put Pichu above initially actually already had much higher regional and national results like Mewtwo, Zelda, Game and Watch, etc.

probably because not many people use pichu at all. it's not necessarily because he's bad, he just doesn't have notable players.

no, don't be like the people who say kirby has only one good move. a lot of pichu's moves are more than usable but the character just can't be touched or else he dies immediately.

i'd rather just use theoretical knowledge since all low tier players all just amazing at he game in general. i don't see why a character like bowser should ever win neutral against a competent player that knows the matchup. no neutral = you're screwed

whatever this thread is full of headaches haha

 

[ItsChon]

Your reasoning for these two don't make much sense to me, especially concerning the points you bring up. Armada uses Fox as a main now, MacD has never gotten top 8 at nationals (???) and HBox is still active and is considered one of the Gods with the character. Mango propelled Puff to his current position (King and Darc originated), Mango could probably still take 1st and definitely top 5 with Puff at nationals. Idea has gotten 7th at McSmashter 4 (one of the largest Canadian majors and nationals with Armada and other internationals) and s0ft placed 7th at Apex 2014.

Wrong. Armada is a dual main. He uses both Fox and Peach in tournaments, just like DrPeePee. Just recently he won a major tournament (I'm Not Yelling) going pretty much only Peach in his GF matches. As for MacD, he got Top 8 at INY and Sandstorm, both of which are considered to be Nationals. Mango taking first if not top 5 in nationals with Puff? I lol'ed. That comment alone highlights either your ignorance, or your blatant fanboyism towards Mango. If not both. Mango hasn't played Puff competitively in 5 years, and he is barely getting into Top 8 with his FOX Main at national tournaments. Winning one with Puff? You're delusional buddy. @ Stratocaster made some decent arguments to why Peach players have had more sucessess in the competitive scene then Jigglypuff's so that's another thing that counters your ridiculous argument.

Spacies aren't a worse MU for Puff than they are for Peach, and the Marth MU is not "a rapidly degenerating one" (???). In fact it's the opposite as evidenced by pretty much every single recent set with high level Marth users (grab? Crouch > rest. Jab or miss a smash / tilt? Crouch or jump in > rest.).

Spacies aren't a worse MU? Then please explain to me why HBox has been losing matches to Foxes/Falcos far below the top level? This includes dropping sets against SFAT, Colbolt, Westballz, and others. As for the Marth MU, I when I said rapidly degenrating, I meant that the MU used to be in Puff's favor. Pretty much everyone agreed on it. But now we got PewPewU, who isn't even the bestMarth around right now. Taking sets of Hbox at Apex? As the Marth meta improves, the matchup will only get worse and worse for Jigglypuff. Even the Shiek MU is worse for Puff then it is for Peach. Plup has taken off three consecutive sets against HBox on the GamingNight1 stream. (I might be getting the name wrong, it's something like that.)

You make it sound like Peach is hand of fist above Puff, truly that's a ridiculous thing to say. "I think anyone placing Jigglypuff above Peach must be out of their ****ing mind"......such an odd statement to make.

Peach isn't head over heels better then Jigglypuff, but she is better. Let's look at the criteria for placing one character above another on a tier list.

- Competitive Record with said character
- Match up's
- Representation

Peach players have pretty much always done better then Puff players when it comes to Major tournaments. This isundeniable. Let's look at match ups.

Jiggly Puff is countered by Fox, soft-countered by Falco, even with Marth, soft-countered by Shiek, even with Peach, and even with Falcon.

Peach is soft-countered by Fox, soft-counters Falco, soft-countered by Marth, soft-countered by Shiek, even with jigglpuff, and even with Falcon.

As you can see, the advantage lies with peach. Yes, Peach is Soft-Countered by three characters, but these match ups are a lot easier to win then what Jigglpuff is up against. Her match up against Fox is pretty bad, and she really doesn't hold advantages over any of the characters in the top 8 now that the Marth match up has evolved a little bit more.

The final area is representation. And all you have to do is look at the amount of Peach players compared to the Puff players, and compare their successes. Peach wins out in the end, which was highlighted in Strato's post.

I said in my post that those players are co-mains. I explicitly stated it.

I saw that, but then you kept saying "peach mains", "these peach mains" "more peach mains than Puff mains". I just was thinking "why use them then? It's contradictory and one doesn't even use Peach as ranked" I might be a bit lopsided on this but I still think the fact that 2 separate all Puff mains getting 7th at large nationals is equivalent if not more impressive than one singular Peach main getting 7th twice, both at smaller nationals. Those other ranked Peach players had placings ranging from 47th to 25th - 49th and one 9th....as we all know the higher up you go especially in the top 10 it get exponentially more difficult. I think it's close but I would call it about even considering the representation difference and character usage difference. I think Puff and Peach are extremely close in how they perform.

Holy ****. A Puff player makes it to Apex top 8, proceeds to immediately get dunked on, which means that Peach and Puff have had comparable success? No, get out of here. I hadn't even hard of that Jigglypuff player before you mentioned him. Since Apex 2014, has this S0ft person done anything of note in a national tournament? I didn't think so. Meanwhile, we have MacD who has been consistently placing Top 8 or close to Top 8 in national tournaments. We're not even talking about Armada yet, whose won so many tournaments with Peach it's ridiculous. Other then HBox, no other Puff players are relevant in the current meta. Look at the CEO tournament that went on today. Not a single Puff made it into the round of 32 except for HBox. Face it, Puff is underrepresented.

I guess we disagree on this too, since Puff has the ability to rest after grab release, and rest off team combos, or just rest set up herself and then have no punishment since your partner can reset you afterwards (it's like a guilt free 1 frame, 26 frame invincible 28% move in doubles). Also the ability to go so deep and help you partner recover multiple times to ledge, offensively she can be anywhere on the screen awaiting a confirm on a combo. I also feel there is so much precision to Puff and her hitboxes are generous but very focused, helping to keep FF minimal. Mew2King and Hbox pretty much dominate any doubles national they enter, it's usually never even close. If I'm not mistaken they are pretty much undefeated in the 7-8 nationals they teamed up for, and Hbox seems to almost always win doubles no matter who he teams with.

It's teams, who gives a ****??????????

 

[Wreckarooni]

Wrong. Armada is a dual main. He uses both Fox and Peach in tournaments, just like DrPeePee. Just recently he won a major tournament (I'm Not Yelling) going pretty much only Peach in his GF matches. As for MacD, he got Top 8 at INY and Sandstorm, both of which are considered to be Nationals. Mango taking first if not top 5 in nationals with Puff? I lol'ed. That comment alone highlights either your ignorance, or your blatant fanboyism towards Mango. If not both. Mango hasn't played Puff competitively in 5 years, and he is barely getting into Top 8 with his FOX Main at national tournaments. Winning one with Puff? You're delusional buddy. @ Stratocaster made some decent arguments to why Peach players have had more sucessess in the competitive scene then Jigglypuff's so that's another thing that counters your ridiculous argument.


Spacies aren't a worse MU? Then please explain to me why HBox has been losing matches to Foxes/Falcos far below the top level? This includes dropping sets against SFAT, Colbolt, Westballz, and others. As for the Marth MU, I when I said rapidly degenrating, I meant that the MU used to be in Puff's favor. Pretty much everyone agreed on it. But now we got PewPewU, who isn't even the bestMarth around right now. Taking sets of Hbox at Apex? As the Marth meta improves, the matchup will only get worse and worse for Jigglypuff. Even the Shiek MU is worse for Puff then it is for Peach. Plup has taken off three consecutive sets against HBox on the GamingNight1 stream. (I might be getting the name wrong, it's something like that.)

Peach isn't head over heels better then Jigglypuff, but she is better. Let's look at the criteria for placing one character above another on a tier list.

- Competitive Record with said character
- Match up's
- Representation

Peach players have pretty much always done better then Puff players when it comes to Major tournaments. This isundeniable. Let's look at match ups.

Jiggly Puff is countered by Fox, soft-countered by Falco, even with Marth, soft-countered by Shiek, even with Peach, and even with Falcon.

Peach is soft-countered by Fox, soft-counters Falco, soft-countered by Marth, soft-countered by Shiek, even with jigglpuff, and even with Falcon.

As you can see, the advantage lies with peach. Yes, Peach is Soft-Countered by three characters, but these match ups are a lot easier to win then what Jigglpuff is up against. Her match up against Fox is pretty bad, and she really doesn't hold advantages over any of the characters in the top 8 now that the Marth match up has evolved a little bit more.

The final area is representation. And all you have to do is look at the amount of Peach players compared to the Puff players, and compare their successes. Peach wins out in the end, which was highlighted in Strato's post.

Holy ****. A Puff player makes it to Apex top 8, proceeds to immediately get dunked on, which means that Peach and Puff have had comparable success? No, get out of here. I hadn't even hard of that Jigglypuff player before you mentioned him. Since Apex 2014, has this S0ft person done anything of note in a national tournament? I didn't think so. Meanwhile, we have MacD who has been consistently placing Top 8 or close to Top 8 in national tournaments. We're not even talking about Armada yet, whose won so many tournaments with Peach it's ridiculous. Other then HBox, no other Puff players are relevant in the current meta. Look at the CEO tournament that went on today. Not a single Puff made it into the round of 32 except for HBox. Face it, Puff is underrepresented.


It's teams, who gives a ****??????????

"Other then HBox, no other Puff players are relevant in the current meta. Look at the CEO tournament that went on today. Not a single Puff made it into the round of 32 except for HBox. Face it, Puff is underrepresented."

SS | S0ft placed 17th today at CEO 2015....another thing you got incorrect. It would seem you are absolutely clueless about Jigglypuff outside of some casual knowledge of Hbox. I mean If you didn't know who EMG | Idea or SS | S0ft were and you had no idea about their top 8 placings (especially considering both are crew sponsored)...there's also Prince Abu who's taken sets off Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth's considered above his level including Shroomed's Sheik.

So if it's clear you don't know about Jigglypuff, the character's mains, and you seem to make stuff up (showing extreme bias)....then it's clear any arguing with you would definitely be time wasted. I'd recommend calming down a bit as well, you seem rather angry.

 

[protato]

xxxxxxxxxx

 

[Wreckarooni]

fox has shorter tech rolls than falcon
in fact, falcon has the longest tech roll in of the top 8 :[]
probably not gonna post in this thread anymore

People seem to forget just how terrible Falcon's slow tech rolls are.

Falcon's slow tech rolls are.

SLOW

 

[ItsChon]

"Other then HBox, no other Puff players are relevant in the current meta. Look at the CEO tournament that went on today. Not a single Puff made it into the round of 32 except for HBox. Face it, Puff is underrepresented."

SS | S0ft placed 17th today at CEO 2015....another thing you got incorrect. It would seem you are absolutely clueless about Jigglypuff outside of some casual knowledge of Hbox. I mean If you didn't know who EMG | Idea or SS | S0ft were and you had no idea about their top 8 placings (especially considering both are crew sponsored)...there's also Prince Abu who's taken sets off Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth's considered above his level including Shroomed's Sheik.

So if it's clear you don't know about Jigglypuff, the character's mains, and you seem to make stuff up (showing extreme bias)....then it's clear any arguing with you would definitely be time wasted. I'd recommend calming down a bit as well, you seem rather angry.

That's nice. Just ignore everything else about my post and claim in making stuff up. So one Jigglypuff player placed 17. MacD placed 9th. I fail to see the relevancy in that comment. And I never claimed that Puffs can't take freak sets/games off superior players or better characters. Westballz took a set off Mang0's fox. Does that mean either Westballz is better then Mang0 or that Falco is better than Fox? Didn't think so. Same logic applies to your Jigglypuff example. Instead of brushing off my perfectly valid arguments and claiming I'm mad, how about you actually refute some of my points.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

People seem to forget just how terrible Falcon's slow tech rolls are.

Falcon's slow tech rolls are.

SLOW

Marth
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

Falcon
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

Fox
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

Falco
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

These are some of the more popular characters I did a debug mode on. The duration of tech rolls is the same. I believe I came across some source in the past that dictated that all characters had the same tech roll frame data except for like two or three outliers. Anyway, the point is that I am not certain 'slow' is the best descriptor.

Since tech rolls cover different distances in the same amount of frames this means the translation per frame is different for each character. I guess in that case Falcon is slow. But, I am thinking people usually think of duration.

 

[Fortress]

Just out of curiosity, even though it probably won't ever happen, who does everyone think is the top contender to knock Fox down from his God tier status?

Fox.

 

[Sleepy Driz]

Marth
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

Falcon
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

Fox
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

Falco
Tech Froll 39
Tech Broll 39

These are some of the more popular characters I did a debug mode on. The duration of tech rolls is the same. I believe I came across some source in the past that dictated that all characters had the same tech roll frame data except for like two or three outliers. Anyway, the point is that I am not certain 'slow' is the best descriptor.

Since tech rolls cover different distances in the same amount of frames this means the translation per frame is different for each character. I guess in that case Falcon is slow. But, I am thinking people usually think of duration.

I think slow is being used in reference to Falcon's travel speed, where speed is defined as distance traveled divided by time. The tech roll frama data only suggests a similarity in the time, i.e the number of frames the roll animation lasts. If the time is fixed, then the speed of a tech roll can still vary as long as the roll distance is different as well, in the same way that a slow car will travel less distance than a faster car in a given, identical time interval. Slow seems like a perfectly fine descriptor to me because it's not describing the speed of the animation, but the speed of the character himself.

 

[Brinzy]

@ everyone who puts Kirby above Zelda because "at least he has a bair"

You realize that Zelda's bair is miles better, and she has a similar fair which allows for more setups of a similar move, and she's a relatively heavy, floaty character that can escape many combos, and she has one of the best Dsmashes in the game, and she has a generally better recovery than Kirby, and her throws and dash attack are far better, and she has slightly better matchups in general because of these qualities, right?

Sure, they're both bad, but Zelda is no way in hell worse than Kirby.