Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Wreckarooni]

I constantly win net play matches against Golds on Anther's with Roy, I think the problem is that people try to use a similar play style to Marth with him, which is what you don't do

I don't think that is the problem for the high level players that HAVE tried with Roy. Most of them know he's more ground based and utilize his movement, sweeptspots, and fall speed better.

I've seen this argued both ways, but by far more people favor G&W and give legitimate reasons. As far as objective reasoning there have actually been less G&W mains and they have produced far better results both in the old school era and the new era (Qerb taking out The Moon and always almost beating Hungry box <- taking him to last stock last game usually), and just having the throw set ups and KO set ups on floaties AND FFers (and a projectile). Roy objectively is FAR worse against any floaties, especially those in the top tier.

Subjectively both have debilitating weakness, but it seems to me G&W has less crippling ones: His bad shield and bad roll aren't nearly as flawed as the fact that Roy can be comboed and CG to death by nearly the entire cast and his recovery is far worse. Aside from Nair and strong Uair Roy's aerials are pretty unsafe until higher percents and all of his sourspots allow retaliation even at insanely high percents.

I like playing Roy more than G&W, but I think G&W just simply has more viability against almost every other MU. If you've actually tried G&W and still think Roy is better then I guess it just comes down to opinion.

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

I don't think that is the problem for the high level players that HAVE tried with Roy. Most of them know he's more ground based and utilize his movement, sweeptspots, and fall speed better.

I've seen this argued both ways, but by far more people favor G&W and give legitimate reasons. As far as objective reasoning there have actually been less G&W mains and they have produced far better results both in the old school era and the new era (Qerb taking out The Moon and always almost beating Hungry box <- taking him to last stock last game usually), and just having the throw set ups and KO set ups on floaties AND FFers (and a projectile). Roy objectively is FAR worse against any floaties, especially those in the top tier.

Subjectively both have debilitating weakness, but it seems to me G&W has less crippling ones: His bad shield and bad roll aren't nearly as flawed as the fact that Roy can be comboed and CG to death by nearly the entire cast and his recovery is far worse. Aside from Nair and strong Uair Roy's aerials are pretty unsafe until higher percents and all of his sourspots allow retaliation even at insanely high percents.

I like playing Roy more than G&W, but I think G&W just simply has more viability against almost every other MU. If you've actually tried G&W and still think Roy is better then I guess it just comes down to opinion.

Actually, Roy has the better aerial game, with a great shffl, g&w cannot l cancel 3 of his aerials. Roy does have an effective recovery, to a degree, and he is much harder to kill than g&w. He has superior killpower and mobility, not to mention grab range.


Also, nice Mako avatar

 

[Fortress]

He (Roy) has superior killpower

I'm going to just stop you right there.

 

[Comet7]

roy's aerial game is awful. his shffl would be okay if cc didn't exist. who cares if g&w can't l cancel some of his aerials? fair and dair get the job done. roy's recovery--sorry, i can't talk about something that doesn't exist. g&w has setups for kill moves. g&w has good mobility too.

 

[Dire Creeper]

I'm going to just stop you right there.

Agreed. Roy only has one KO move (his F smash). But it doesn't help much due to the fact that it's his only good one, which makes it pretty predictable and countered by smart players. Roys only good aspects are his decent mobility, really good grab game and transcendent priority in Flare Blade.

Also, it doesn't hurt G&W too much that he has some aerials you can't l-cancel. His back air isn't really an aerial you want to SHFFL or use near the ground in general because the forward air is the better aerial. His neutral aerial only has 15 frames of landing lag, which is shorter compared to other aerials. I'm also pretty sure G&W can throw out a short hop up air without suffering landing lag (as long as you're quick). Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Wreckarooni]

Nah G&W doesn't have auto cancel on Up Air, but Bair actually has it's uses - even from 0% it has a strong upward low scaling knockback on it's air and ground hitboxes that can pop up an opponent (even with land lang it has enough hitstun to set up grabs or follow ups for wide percentage ranges) that and it's got great disjoint.

Really though only 15 frames of land lag un-cancelled on Nair is pretty awesome considering how massive and powerful the hitbox is (almost as powerful as Roy's Fsmash). His Fair and Dair only have 12 and 10 frames l-cancelled and they are significantly more useful and powerful than Roy's.

 

[Dire Creeper]

Nah G&W doesn't have auto cancel on Up Air, but Bair actually has it's uses - even from 0% it has a strong upward low scaling knockback on it's air and ground hitboxes that can pop up an opponent (even with land lang it has enough hitstun to set up grabs or follow ups for wide percentage ranges) that and it's got great disjoint.

Really though only 15 frames of land lag un-cancelled on Nair is pretty awesome considering how massive and powerful the hitbox is (almost as powerful as Roy's Fsmash). His Fair and Dair only have 12 and 10 frames l-cancelled and they are significantly more useful and powerful than Roy's.

Ok thanks, I wasn't too sure. I don't use G&W so I wouldn't know too much.

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

So, would anyone consider changing their declaration with a demonstration in a Bo3

 

[Wreckarooni]

So, would anyone consider changing their declaration with a demonstration in a Bo3

A one on one might only prove the MU and nothing else. But if you were face Qerb I'm sure he'd beat you even though the MU is seen as slightly in Roy's favor, so even that would kinda skew the results. I mean if he can take down a top ten Marth like The Moon, a Roy would be cheesecake I would think.

What would prove it for me is if you were to face off against a top representative for each of the 8 top tier characters and then a G&W of similar skill faced off against the same players and see who does better. All 8 of course should actually know the MU for both.

I would actually pay money to see that showdown, do you have any current footage of your Roy by chance? Are you better than Neo/Ripple/Sethlon/Pyro? Active Roy mains are very rare, definitely not enough of them right now.

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

A one on one might only prove the MU and nothing else. But if you were face Qerb I'm sure he'd beat you even though the MU is seen as slightly in Roy's favor, so even that would kinda skew the results. I mean if he can take down a top ten Marth like The Moon, a Roy would be cheesecake I would think.

What would prove it for me is if you were to face off against a top representative for each of the 8 top tier characters and then a G&W of similar skill faced off against the same players and see who does better. All 8 of course should actually know the MU for both.

I would actually pay money to see that showdown, do you have any current footage of your Roy by chance? Are you better than Neo/Ripple/Sethlon/Pyro? Active Roy mains are very rare, definitely not enough of them right now.

I'll be attending a tourney on the 11th, the matches should be on YouTube hopefully

 

[Wreckarooni]

I'll be attending a tourney on the 11th, the matches should be on YouTube hopefully

Oh awesome good luck! I'm always rooting for under-repped mid-low tiers no matter who it is. Post it in the Roy Forums if you can I'm sure Ripple and Pyro would give their input if you wanted that kind of thing (and they'd be excited to see another Roy user)

Will it be streamed by chance?

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

Oh awesome good luck! I'm always rooting for under-repped mid-low tiers no matter who it is. Post it in the Roy Forums if you can I'm sure Ripple and Pyro would give their input if you wanted that kind of thing (and they'd be excited to see another Roy user)

Will it be streamed by chance?

Most likely, yes, it will be streamed. I'll post it on the Roy boards.

 

[Sir Tundra]

He has superior killpower

Dude you'd be right about that. If you were talking about . Not lol

Also good luck with your stream breh

 

[Woohoo982]

My weirdo tier list.

Top Tiers:

1. - ech, you know the drill(shine), every matchup is even or better for him and everyone plays him.

2. - Extremely close with Marth. I firmly believe that Falco is even with Fox, which is a huge point in his favor. I think that he's also 50/50 or better with everyone below him except Peach and maybe Marth. With PPMD's Falco showing signs of slippage I believe that the best Falcos are now Mango and Westballz.

3. - Struggles a little with fox, might beat falco, even, or slim advantage with peach. Has oddly close matchups with some other characters; Falcon, Yoshi, Link. He also might lose to pikachu? (not much data). With the king of the mews slipping I think the clear best Marths are PPMD and PewPewU (not going to be confusing at all... Kevin.)

4. - Close with sheik, but ultimately I believe that peach has better matchups against the top - high tiers. Has a bad matchup with fox, but I don't believe it to be any worse than sheik's. Firmly beats falco, not just with armada-mango, but with MacD also forcing Westballz off Falco multiple times. Even or better with every other character except Jigglypuff, and maybe Marth. Armada is still the best peach with MacD making steady improvements in second.

5. - I feel that sheik is overrated on a lot of lists, she does well against some high tiers, and mid or low tier characters, but has no winning matchups against top tiers. Imo she loses solidly to fox, goes even or slightly worse against Falco/Marth, and is even with Peach and Puff. She also loses slightly to Ice Climbers (and maybe Yoshi?). Best in the world are Shroomed and Plup, with KK & Kira somewhere in behind. There's always room for the return of the king however.

6. - The character that will suffer the most in the coming 20XX, loses harshly to fox, and has only Peach downright beat among the top tiers. Hungrybox might have to start looking at a secondary...

High Tiers

7. - Another controversial pick, I think that Pikachu has earned this spot though. Loses an unknown amount to Peach, and solidly to Sheik, but has not too bad losing matchups with the other top tiers. Also loses to Ice Climbers. Wallgreens Drake 4 lyfe.

8. - This character could be considered top tier if it didn't get so destroyed by Peach, losing decently to fox isn't a plus either. Winning slightly against sheik is the one saving grace of this character. Pick Icies if you like playing bracket roulette. Fly Amanita, Dizzkidboogie, Nintendude, and a semi-retired wobbles keep this character afloat.

9. - This placement can change if 20XX finds a rival in 20GX, however I am yet to be convinced. The Captain's only true winning matchup against higher placed characters is Ice Climbers. I don't think that he wins the matchup against peach, or if he does, it's very slight. Armada has trounced every Falcon since SilentSpectre, and recently MacD has taken multiple sets off of S2J. Watch for: S2J, the 20GX crew, and n0ne.

10. - Close matchups against the space animals make this placement for samus, she loses hard to most floaties who can weave around her projectiles. Previously Plup made this character viable, but HugS has been picking up the slack in his absence.

High-Mid Tiers

11. - Has oddly close matchups with many top tiers, including marth and sheik. Not very much data yet, as unlike Axe, aMSa hasn't spent an extended time in the US playing at tournaments. Seems to lose solidly to peach.

12. - Can do well against space animals with the right reads, terrible recovery is not exploited by opponents enough. Abate, Eddie Mexico, and Vudujin are the luigi's to watch.

13. - With Shroomed gone, only a ghost of this character's success remains.

14. - Slow as balls, but hits like a truck. Somehow has a worse recovery than Captain Falcon. Bizzaro Flame, Kage, and Eikelman are the main men for this character.

Low Mid Tiers
15. - Matchups between Young Link and some floaties such as Peach, Jiggs, and Icies can be close, but I ultimately think that Young Link loses all of them. Gets destroyed by fox. A secondary for characters that lose to the floaties listed above.
16. - Some slight changes make this character much less viable than his PHD counterpart..
17. - Even with Marth but that's pretty much it...
18. - Bad shield coverage makes it hard for him to defend himself, but at least he can L-Cancel all his aerials.

Low/Bottom Tiers
19. - Bad shield AND he can't L-Cancel all his aerials.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

Kirby in last again? At least he has ADVANTAGEOUS MATCHUPS. Bowser (and Pichu) don't. Also Kirby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zelda.
I don't think that Doc being near the top was because of Shroomed, I think he reminded us how good a good Doc Mario can be. Not something like Brawl,TheReflexWonder and Pokemon Trainer.
Also, you give no explanation as to why anyone below G&W is there. I know they're bad, but give some reasons as to why they're in the spots you put them in.
Mew two above Roy and Ness? Really?
Also, Mario can beat the living **** out of Young Link.
And jigglypuff is quite good. I'd switch around Peach and C.Falcon if i was making this list. Armada might have to find a secondary...

 

[MarthZ]

S
1. Marth
2. Fox
3. Falco
4. Sheik
A
5. Peach
6. Puff
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers
9. Yoshi
B
10. Samus
11. Pikachu
12. Mario
13. Luigi
14. Doc
C
15. Young Link
16. Ganondorf
17. DK
18. Link
D
19. Mr. Game & Watch
20. Pichu
21. Zelda
22. Mewtwo
F
23. Ness
24. Roy
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

what!? marth the best what the heck

 

[thegrovylekid]

Kirby in last again? At least he has ADVANTAGEOUS MATCHUPS

While Kirby may have advantageous Matchups, he's still a worse character than Bowser or Pichu, both of who can actually get stuff done.

Also, Armada has a secondary: Fox.

 

[Comet7]

*armada has a main: fox

don't sleep on kirby.

 

[thegrovylekid]

don't sleep on kirby.

No, that's Jigglypuff who sleeps on people.

I've been looking at some major tournament results. Here are some points that could be taken into a little account:

• The only non-top 8 characters that made it into CEO 2015's Top 16 were Samus and Luigi. Eikelmann got into Top 32.
• At B.E.A.S.T 5, SchlimmShady (Mario), Eagle (Doc), and VilNess (Luigi) made it into Top 32.
• At Press Start, A Rookie (Mario) got 17th.
• At "I'm Not Yelling!", HugS got 13th with Samus.
• At Paragon 2015, Plup got 5th, HugS got 13th, and Blea Gelo and Eikelmann got 17th.
• At Apex 2015, aMSa got 5th (this should already be noteworthy).

These shouldn't be anything too game-changing, but I feel these results should be noted.

I still think that having 1 good player [aMSa] doesn't compare that much to the 9,001 Foxes/Falcos. But that's just me, most likely. Eikelmann also used Pichu for a few matches at CEO 2015.

 

[EddyBearr]

Also, you give no explanation as to why anyone below G&W is there. I know they're bad, but give some reasons as to why they're in the spots you put them in.
Mew two above Roy and Ness? Really?
Also, Mario can beat the living **** out of Young Link.

I don't think G&W needs an explanation at this point for being above the other bottom tiers. G&W has a workable combo game, decent movement, good killpower, and decent zoning. There is no equivalent to QERB at this point.
Mewtwo has results which Ness and Roy could never dream of, though I do think Roy is better than Mewtwo. Ness, however, is pretty much just atrocious.
Mario has a very hard time dealing with Young Link's camping. It can be argued that Young Link wins that particular matchup.

While Kirby may have advantageous Matchups, he's still a worse character than Bowser or Pichu, both of who can actually get stuff done.

I think it's quite clear at this point that Kirby gets stuff done better than Bowser or Pichu do. Kirby has better results, better matchups, and a better gameplan in a game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So when's the new list coming out?

 

[Tedbear24]

This is gonna be good

 

[ShortcutButton]

Question Time: Luigi or Doc? Alot of people say Luigi now simply because of there being loads more players of Luigi (Vudujin, Abate, Vist, etc) but we can't just get rid of Doc's viability because Shroomed left. I want to hear your more experienced opinions.

 

[Comet7]

read the thread

 

[ShortcutButton]

anything in particular?

 

[futilejoyrider]

I think it's quite clear at this point that Kirby gets stuff done better than Bowser or Pichu do. Kirby has better results, better matchups, and a better gameplan in a game.

I have to agree with you but Kirby might even be better than the whole tier list actually. C. Rabbit, legendary Kirby main, defeated the great beast from Sweden, Armada, and if Kirby doesn't deserve at least SSS++++ tier from that, well C.Rabbit and fellow Kirby user Mooninite also managed to defeat Prime Blur's red Marth, showing Kirby's true potential to be able to defeat any number of the true Melee gods.

 

[Grass]

Question Time: Luigi or Doc? Alot of people say Luigi now simply because of there being loads more players of Luigi (Vudujin, Abate, Vist, etc) but we can't just get rid of Doc's viability because Shroomed left. I want to hear your more experienced opinions.

Kid, no one's played Doc seriously since Shroomed quit.

I have to agree with you but Kirby might even be better than the whole tier list actually. C. Rabbit, legendary Kirby main, defeated the great beast from Sweden, Armada, and if Kirby doesn't deserve at least SSS++++ tier from that, well C.Rabbit and fellow Kirby user Mooninite also managed to defeat Prime Blur's red Marth, showing Kirby's true potential to be able to defeat any number of the true Melee gods.

If KirbyKaze subbed kirby and won a tourney does that mean Kirbs is top tier? lol

There are people with skill but even skilled players have limitations and those limitations come in the form of the low tier character(s). Just look at HugS.

 

[JRad]

S Tier
Fox Falco Sheik Marth

A Tier
Falcon Ice Climbers Peach Puff

B Tier
Samus Luigi Yoshi Pikachu Doc Ganon

C Tier
Mario Young Link+Link Donkey Kong

D Tier
Roy GnW Zelda Mewtwo

E Tier
Kirby Bowser Pichu Ness

I don't think Marth is really all that more gifted against the spacies than Sheik, and Sheik does not have to work as hard/struggles less against Mid tiers characters that Marth does such as Link, Yoshi, Ganon, and Mario bros. With shroomed and plup pushing sheik even further, I feel confident about this.

Falcon is more adept to the metagame know that movement and platform games are becoming more and more advanced. Its a lot harder for Puff and Peach to deal with shield dropping while not having strong shield drop games of their own. Falcon's punish game is also much better in more matchups than Peach and arguably puff.

Based off players and results I believe that Samus should be the highest in B. Given that Doctor Marios platform game is really bad and gets walled out easy, I think he can't keep up as well in this meta. Luigi Yoshi and Pikachu are all the same in my opinion but I do believe Luigi has more potential.

I personally believe Ness is the worst character.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Kid, no one's played Doc seriously since Shroomed quit.




If KirbyKaze subbed kirby and won a tourney does that mean Kirbs is top tier? lol

There are people with skill but even skilled players have limitations and those limitations come in the form of the low tier character(s). Just look at HugS.

I'm going to take a guess and say that that whole "Kirby = SSS+++ God tier" was Sarcasm.

 

[Grass]

I'm going to take a guess and say that that whole "Kirby = SSS+++ God tier" was Sarcasm.

or trolling.

Hey Hugs, I see you.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Question Time: Luigi or Doc? Alot of people say Luigi now simply because of there being loads more players of Luigi (Vudujin, Abate, Vist, etc) but we can't just get rid of Doc's viability because Shroomed left. I want to hear your more experienced opinions.

Ehh... I'd say Luigi at this point (Especially since OTG basically says Luigi is better and he mained Doc for an eternity.) Everybody seems to think so too so I guess it's true. They're pretty close IMO but it just seems Luigi has a better neutral/combo/KO game. I'm definitely not a threat at my region right now, therefore I really don't have a say in the matter. I'll just be the ignorant mid-tier hero wannabe trying tapping out as much potential into the character when it's obviously a lost cause, lol.

 

[Woohoo982]

Who do you think should be last on the list, bowser zelda or pichu
edit: spellcheck hates me

 

[keymanb]

what!? marth the best what the heck

That's valid

 

[thegrovylekid]

Who do you think should be last on the list, bowser zelda or pichu
edit: spellcheck hates me

or

 

[keymanb]

Who do you think should be last on the list, bowser zelda or pichu
edit: spellcheck hates me

How can anyone put Zelda as last?

The only possible answers are Bowser or Kirby, more likely bowser.

 

[Captain JOHN]

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Sheik
3. Falco / Marth

A Tier
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach / Falcon
8. Ice Climbers / Pikachu

B Tier
10. Luigi
11. Samus
12. Mario / Doctor Mario
14. Ganondorf

C Tier
15. Yoshi
16. Link / Young Link
18. Roy
19. Mr. Game And Watch
20. DK

D Tier
21. Zelda
22. Ness
23. Mewtwo

F Tier (why are they even in the game)
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

S Tier explanation - Fox is fox, and he's not moving from the top of that list.
I'm not a personal fan of johns, so by Sheik's recent tournament placings/upsets i firmly believe that Sheik earns its place above falco/marth
/ Falco and Marth are tied because Marth has worse matchups with lower tier characters, so even with his performance against his fellow s tiers, he still has a negative MU with Falcon, and even with Jiggles. Falco is just inferior to fox or sheik, and he hasn't defined himself in the Marth MU, forcing me to believe they are tied.

A Tier explanation - Jigglypuff is almost there, but is overall too light and has too predictable of a recovery to be placed any higher.
/ Peach and Falcon are tied, because (contrary to the community's belief) the Peach v. Falcon MU is very, very close to even. Falcon, depending on his opponents' playstyles, can perform very well against spacies and Marth, but only if the playstyles allow. A defensive/conservative playstyle from any of Marth, Fox, or Falco can result in the generally seen as **** MU against Falcon (bar Marth). The almost exact same goes for Peach, however, Peach must be the defensive playstyle, and marth is included.
/ Pikachu has proven his skill in tournament (pretty much just Axe here, but hey, you guys all say Yoshi is 9 cause of aMSa) against Fox/Sheik eliminating those barriers. His semi-even MU with Falcon also places Pika here. The Icies are not that strong, you have to take ISAI's advice and dont get hit (grabbed actually). The Ice Climbers have recently been shown to suck against Falcon, Fox, Falco, Jigglypuff, Peach (duh), and even the likes of Pikachu. however, they still have potential to do great things, forcing them to spot 9 on my tier list.

B Tier explanation - Luigi has shown his potential in tournament since the last tier list creation. Luigi actually has a good combo game against Fox, Falco, Falcon, but can also be ***** by these characters.
Samus' consistently rated even MU against Fox places her at 11, but she is poo-poo against the likes of Falcon and Sheik. So, be happy she's even this high.
/ Mario and Doctor Mario are almost the exact same. Differences in tilts, side b's, and projectiles define their play. Mario's cape grants greater aerial mobility, boosting his recovery. Doc's cape, however, is more useful for denying recoveries, like a snobby adolescent white girl. The fireball is clearly inferior to the pill. Duh. But mario has a slightly better combo game thanks to his meteor-spiking fair. So, we'll call it even.
Ganon has proven to be trash at the past few national/international events. Bizzaro Flame plays for the love of style, so can you really count his results? Either way, Ganon is combo bait to almost every character in the game for God's sake. Ganon performs well against Peach, however, placing him above those who don't (bar ic's).

C Tier explanation - I will admit, I used 1 player to propel a character's ranking, but I do not see the love for Yoshi. Yoshi is just clunky, has little killpower, and is inaccesible to the average player. However, when mastered, Yoshi looks smoother than ice, can kill with almost every move, and is amazingly underrated. But, until everyone performs at aMSa level, Yoshi will stay in C Tier.
/ Young Link and his future, pubescent self, Link, are almost equal. Young Link's combo game is superior, his mobility is better and his projectiles are almost exactly the same. Link, however has higher killpower, and more options for edgeguarding. Overall, it is the same situation as Doc/Mario. Same, but different.
Roy has potential to do great things, but his abysmal recovery and ways to get the opponent into the air hinder the accessibility of his potential. Roy can do amazing things against the likes of Fox, Falco, Falcon, Ganon, DK, and Bowser, but, then again, almost all characters can if given the chance. Roy has unlimited potential as a clone of the S tier, Marth, but he just can't follow up.
Mr. Game & Watch is highly underrated. His amazing chainthrow/grab game is only held back by his horrid grab range (honestly why do that to him Sakurai? WHY?), and his auto-combo's out of throws work on every character. His amazing vertical recovery allows for risky edgeguards, completed with a lucky dair spike or a gimp from his fair. also, he has a very good Up smash. Like Pikachu good up-smash. however his inability to recover horizontally (bar up-b DI [ew]) and his floatiness hold him back so much. He literally dies at 50% to most forward smashes in the game. Its bullsh*t. So, his terrible grab range and recovery options and floatiness keep him near the bottom of the tier list.
DK is just combo bait, so don't main him unless you have very high self-esteem to begin with, because HurtBox's faults and shortcomings will quickly take your confidence away. First of all, he is one of the biggest characters in the game, and his weight allows for lengthy combos on him. His nickname is HurtBox for a reason. (HIS F*CK*NG TIE HAS A HURTBOX WTF SAKURAI) and his vertical recovery is just terrible. His inability to approach leaves him stranded, on FD especially, and most of the time, you'd rather drink 6 gallons of Clorox Bleach than main DK. But what I can say about DK is, he has a great Up-Air combo into other aerials or just up-air. His grab range is great, but difficult to do without the opponent seeing it coming. His horizontal recovery is that of a god, however it is very predictable, leaving you edgeguarded 90 times out of 100. Overall, DK's cons outweigh his pros, leaving him at the embarrasing 20th spot.

D Tier explanation - I really didnt feel that Ness/M2/Zelda deserved being slumped in with the not viable characters. Mostly because Zelda has the best down-b in the game (lol that was a troll), and she has fair/bair kill moves, a great grab+throw game, and a bewildering recovery (if she doesnt have a tag).
Ness is very stylish, and he also has other things going for him. A consistent floorblaster can win a match through this gimmick alone, but Ness' aerials are outstanding. His nair is a less strong Peach nair, good for combos, his fair can set up for combos or edgeguard, his bair is a good kill move, and his dair is your run of the mill meteor spike. But his lack of ledge options and easily edgeguarded recovery keep him from doing anything cool. HIs forward smash is too laggy, and his Up/Down Smash is just terrible. PK Fire is also too laggy, and is predictable, and his neutral b only works on FD (f*ckin platforms). Overall, Ness' shortcomings override his potential.
Mewtwo is kinda viable, I guess. Mewtwo has an incredible range on tilts and some aerials due to his long a$$ tail (even though tails dont start in the front). Mewtwo can recover (if he has a jump) from close to everywhere, and he can tech chase like a muthaf*cka with his nair. But, his bad grab game holds him back. His lack of good special moves also does this. What good is a long wavedash + moonwalk if you can't put it to use. Mewtwo was given so much, but he fails to put it all to use, making him barely tournament viable.

F Tier explanation - Pichu is actually the best of the 3 here. Her damaging attacks aren't even that useful for her, and the do at max 5% to her. No big deal, right? It wouldn't be if she wasn't so light and floaty! She dies to almost everything. Her edgeguarding game is almost kinda good, but really isnt. Pichu has a lack of kill moves, and her good throw game is hindered by her terrible grab range. terrible OoS options, and just being a terrible character puts her here.
Bowser at least has some kill potential. God damn but do all of his moves have to be laggy? Honestly! You better hope your opponent a) doesn't know how to DI, b) doesnt know how to recover, and c) is a complete and total dumb*ss that walks into every single move that you do. Bowser is the most predictable character in the game. Its almost like your opponent is watching your controller, not your character. Bowser also has huge hurtboxes, allowing for every character in the game to anally destroy him. He doesn't have one MU in his favor, either. How about you do yourself a favor and not ever pick this character in competitive play.
Kirby. Oh, Kirby. How much could you get nerfed from one smash game to the next? Cause i think you set a world record, there buddy! you went from second on the tier list, a viable character, to the worst. THE WORST. Everyone can break out of your throws, your range sucks, you have no kill moves, why are you even in the game? You die at 46% to every move. Even Fox's jab. The only thing you have going for you is your 5-hop + up b. thats it. youre trash.


Anyway, that's my spin on the Tier List! If your vote and my list have any discrepancies, please, feel free to message me!
JAMESTOWN, NY SMASH FOR LIFE

 

[Papa Swamp]

1.) Fox 2.) Falco/Sheik 3.)Marth
If sheik gets the grab on Falco it's over, but falco can **** sheik up as well so putting him below sheik isn't right.

 

[MarthZ]

1.) Fox 2.) Falco/Sheik 3.)Marth
If sheik gets the grab on Falco it's over, but falco can **** sheik up as well so putting him below sheik isn't right.

agreed. putting marth below shiek isn't right either

 

[Grass]

Ganon has proven to be trash at the past few national/international events. Bizzaro Flame plays for the love of style, so can you really count his results? Either way, Ganon is combo bait to almost every character in the game for God's sake. Ganon performs well against Peach, however, placing him above those who don't (bar ic's).

Don't diss Bizz. Besides, there's still Brandondorf and Kage and even Eikelman. We still have our Ganons.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Ganon has proven to be trash at the past few national/international events. Bizzaro Flame plays for the love of style, so can you really count his results? Either way, Ganon is combo bait to almost every character in the game for God's sake. Ganon performs well against Peach, however, placing him above those who don't (bar ic's).

He's Bizzarro Flame. He's still one of the best Ganondorf players around. Why do you say that style =/= a good smasher? Actually, the fact that he can style on you and win should prove something. And for that matter, the whole "Combo Bait" part is nullified by the fact that his attacks do so much damage to you that he doesn't need to combo.

Also, your whole

Bizzaro Flame plays for the love of style, so can you really count his results?

seems to not apply to ness.

Ness is very stylish

Please make up your mind.

/ Mario and Doctor Mario are almost the exact same. Differences in tilts, side b's, and projectiles define their play. Mario's cape grants greater aerial mobility, boosting his recovery. Doc's cape, however, is more useful for denying recoveries, like a snobby adolescent white girl. The fireball is clearly inferior to the pill. Duh. But mario has a slightly better combo game thanks to his meteor-spiking fair. So, we'll call it even.

You got something wrong here. Dr. Mario's attacks have the exact same speed as marios, BUT they do more damage. Also, Mario's biggest recovery edge is his ability to Wall-Jump, NOT his cape. Also, Doc's cape has more range and deals more damage. And what does a spiking FAir have to do with combo ability if it's useless outside of a situational finisher? Docs, while unable to meteor, has more power and doesn't need to rely on a sweetspot to finish a stock.

/ Young Link and his future, pubescent self, Link, are almost equal. Young Link's combo game is superior, his mobility is better and his projectiles are almost exactly the same. Link, however has higher killpower, and more options for edgeguarding. Overall, it is the same situation as Doc/Mario. Same, but different.

um, no. Young Link has the comboes and the mobility, he's faster, his bombs have more combo potential because they trap in multiple hits, YL also has a better NAir, with a lot more killpower. Also, Link is sort of heavy and has a higher falling speed, meaning he is vulnerable to comboes and Chain Throws, something that if you mention it for one character, you have to mention it for every other character with this problem.

Oh, you also forgot to mention the Space animals and Falcon's vulnearability to chain throws.

EDIT:

Mewtwo is kinda viable, I guess. Mewtwo has an incredible range on tilts and some aerials due to his long a$$ tail (even though tails dont start in the front). Mewtwo can recover (if he has a jump) from close to everywhere, and he can tech chase like a muthaf*cka with his nair. But, his bad grab game holds him back. His lack of good special moves also does this. What good is a long wavedash + moonwalk if you can't put it to use. Mewtwo was given so much, but he fails to put it all to use, making him barely tournament viable.

Um, Mewtwo has some of the strongest throws in the game, his Up throw is the strongest kill throw in the game AND can chain throw fastfallers. Mewtwo's back throw also is one of the stronger throws in the game.

Also seconding what @ Fortress has said below me about Yoshi.

 

[Fortress]

^^^ Perfect.

As a Link main I can confirm that Y. Link and Link couldn't be farther apart from one another. Y Link is the Ken to Link's Ryu. Except against Puff when he turns into the anti-zoner...

And to repeat what's been said, Bizz being such a hard styler doesn't mean his wins 'don't count' or some other crap like that. I don't know why anybody would even say or imply that. He gets wins. The game doesn't care how.

@ Captain JOHN Don't propel Yoshi on the merits of one player, and dock another character points when they have more than one dedicated main making waves.