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Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
I honesty don't think that's enough to make him not bottom tier, but I guess my bottom tier can be read in any order. I'm not really sure, I don't really watch Roy, he has no neutral outside of waiting until people get hit by his d tilt. Or he can go for a grab!, his grab game is like this

it hurts to get thrown by Roy as Fox I tell ya.
Kirby is just so broken I can't see him being not bottom except maybe bowser as he's just so laggy in all sense of the word. Tbh bowser is just a worse roy with an up b oos

You really can't underestimate his Dtilt unless you're puff or peach at which point he gets nothing off of it

Definitely agree he's bottom 4/5
 
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EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
@ Fortress | Sveet Fortress | Sveet I like option #2 as well. Two options could be "having multiple and/or decent placings on Smashboards-ranked tournaments" or "being PR-level in their region" (Adjusted for stacked regions like NorCal).

I think I'd be a good borderline player to draw a line at if you're looking for a decent chunk of votes. I've got two "top 3" placings on Smashboards ranked tournaments, have a win on a top 200 player, and was ranked 10th during the previous Minnesota PR season. Not an amazing player, but it's clear I attend tournaments and am capable of playing at a decent level.

So, basically, if you can search up their tag and see "okay, this person does pretty well in tournaments", then that should give you an amount to work with from your original 1k submissions.
 
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SPoitter

Interior Crocodile Aligator
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
111
Kirby is just so broken I can't see him being not bottom except maybe bowser as he's just so laggy in all sense of the word. Tbh bowser is just a worse roy with an up b oos

You really can't underestimate his Dtilt unless you're puff or peach at which point he gets nothing off of it

Definitely agree he's bottom 4/5
Wanna know how Roy's Dtilt is bad? Crouch Cancels
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Messages
1,202
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Roy's D-tilt is amazing, even with crouch cancelling. The IASA alongside disjoint, low startup, and decent crouch / dash hurtbox shape make Roy's d-tilt very good/safe even without the combo potential, but then alongside the combo potential, it's just amazing.
 

Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
Just tested his Dtilt on Fox. It stops ccing the sweetspot at 38, middle 50, sourspot past 100

Kinda ehhh
 

Spaghetti Sammy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 3, 2015
Messages
238
Location
Notournaments, Wisconsin
NNID
FreshBagels
3DS FC
0104-0256-0397
That tier list was made a bajillion years ago. Also Donkey is Kirby tier
:^)
Kappa, or whatever the Twitch weebs spam as apposed to "JK"
Well then Mr Meatballs, consider this:
My plumbing has worked for 7 years
Somethings are just good
If M2K would stop sitting in a corner playing Sheik and actually talk to people for 4 ****in' minutes I bet he wouldnt have much of a problem with his tier list from 7 years ago.

Also DK has a ton of untapped potential. His cargo stage spikes are sp00ky and he has kill combinations.

EDIT: OK if I actually read the ****ing thread I would see M2K's new tier list
Why the **** is Game and Watch so low
I get he can be killed at like 15% on Joshy's Peninsula but c'mooooon
Also maybe DK is worse than 7 years ago
 
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Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
Well then Mr Meatballs, consider this:
My plumbing has worked for 7 years
Somethings are just good
If M2K would stop sitting in a corner playing Sheik and actually talk to people for 4 ****in' minutes I bet he wouldnt have much of a problem with his tier list from 7 years ago.

Also DK has a ton of untapped potential. His cargo stage spikes are sp00ky and he has kill combinations.

EDIT: OK if I actually read the ****ing thread I would see M2K's new tier list
Why the **** is Game and Watch so low
I get he can be killed at like 15% on Joshy's Peninsula but c'mooooon
Also maybe DK is worse than 7 years ago
G&W is a glass canon.
More like a paper machine gun I guess :/

And yeah every low tier (including dk) has taken a dip since '08 except for yl and yoshi
 

DeepDish

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
84
Location
Southern Ontario, Canada
Ok, good news and bad news.

Good news: there were over 1000 votes in one month and in the first 24 hours alone there were over 500 votes! This completely exceeded my expectations, I am blown away by how popular this was!

Bad news: almost no top players voted. I haven't compiled statistics yet, but it seems only 1-2 MIOM top 100 players voted. Out of the Smashboards top 200, I estimate less than 10. This seriously threatens the validity of the resulting list.

There are a few options. One, pester top players to submit a tier list vote to me (despite deadline being past). Two, use the data already provided but alter the acceptance criteria for the high level list. Three, abandon having a high level list and output a single community list. Four, abandon the project entirely.

I am leaning towards option two, as I don't feel like pestering players who had plenty of notice (I assume they weren't interested, harassing them wont change their mind). The main problem with changing the criteria is acceptance becomes highly arbitrary and dependent on my own biases. Option four is preferable to option three in my opinion, or at least equally bad. I would be willing to accept votes from players for the next month or so, but eventually it must end and the votes tallied.
First of all everyone needs to stop arguing about tier placement and actually address this issue. Sveet has put a lot of effort into this so help the guy out give him some suggestions. If this issue isn't solved, there is no new tier list. All of your arguing will be in vein and will have no impact on the community.

I agree with option two being the best use of community votes, but I think we can pester some more high/higher level players to submit a tier list of some kind. The only problem is that with most of them, they either don't care or will only give you a top 9-12 characters. A lot of people here are already on their local Melee or Smash scene's Facebook page. We could ask people to survey the top players on there and explain the situation to them. I'm sure many will be indifferent, but I think we could get a few legitimate responses.

I think it'd be a good idea for people here on Smashboards to maybe submit a "resumé" of their qualifications for their vote. This might include stating which characters you main, which region you're in, other smashers that you play with often or have played with a lot in the past, how you place in tournaments, which characters you play most often in friendlies, which characters you're most unfamiliar with, etc. Probably have a requirement that states you need recorded footage if you're not a known player, and maybe give an in depth explanaition of 4-5 character matchups.

If someone submits all of these things, then it'd be a great way of weeding out people that throw their own personal tier lists up here for fun.

In summary, here is a tl;dr version of what I just said:

Step 1
Get more high-level players to submit their lists through outreach on Facebook or in person.

Step 2
Create a team dedicated to reviewing 2015 tier list applications from mid-higher level players due to most high level players inevitably not caring enough about a new tier list.
 
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DeepDish

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Messages
84
Location
Southern Ontario, Canada
@ Fortress | Sveet Fortress | Sveet I like option #2 as well. Two options could be "having multiple and/or decent placings on Smashboards-ranked tournaments" or "being PR-level in their region" (Adjusted for stacked regions like NorCal).

I think I'd be a good borderline player to draw a line at if you're looking for a decent chunk of votes. I've got two "top 3" placings on Smashboards ranked tournaments, have a win on a top 200 player, and was ranked 10th during the previous Minnesota PR season. Not an amazing player, but it's clear I attend tournaments and am capable of playing at a decent level.

So, basically, if you can search up their tag and see "okay, this person does pretty well in tournaments", then that should give you an amount to work with from your original 1k submissions.
Even with that, I still don't think it'd be enough data. Most of the votes on here are from lower level players. No offense to anyone, and I understand that everyone has an opinion, but there are only a few names I recognize on here. If we wanted to do a thorough job, we'd need to go further than just cross referencing votes with regional power rankings. It'd take some organization and some people's free time, but I think it'd be worth it.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
KirbyKaze and Unknown were two people I highly expected to vote on this list, as I recall they both voted on the last list (and I assume the MBR lists before that). Perhaps they didn't see this, or they only saw it once and forgot. I tried to get in contact with everyone in the MIOM top 100 but after contacting the first 40 or so on FB I lost a lot of motivation. If you ran it past them for me, I would really appreciate it.

I hate to say it, but I think the biggest short coming was the lack of social media representation. I did very little to promote this on twitter or FB or reddit, and because of that the reach wasn't as far as it should've been. The year is 20xx and people no longer check smashboards :138:.
 
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Link24a

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
481
KirbyKaze and Unknown were two people I highly expected to vote on this list, as I recall they both voted on the last list (and I assume the MBR lists before that). Perhaps they didn't see this, or they only saw it once and forgot. I tried to get in contact with everyone in the MIOM top 100 but after contacting the first 40 or so on FB I lost a lot of motivation. If you ran it past them for me, I would really appreciate it.

I hate to say it, but I think the biggest short coming was the lack of social media representation. I did very little to promote this on twitter or FB or reddit, and because of that the reach wasn't as far as it should've been. The year is 20xx and people no longer check smashboards :138:.
Yeah I only found out about this when I just happened to check the general melee discussion because I was wondering about my CRT
 

Wreckarooni

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
197
Location
Midwest
KirbyKaze and Unknown were two people I highly expected to vote on this list, as I recall they both voted on the last list (and I assume the MBR lists before that). Perhaps they didn't see this, or they only saw it once and forgot. I tried to get in contact with everyone in the MIOM top 100 but after contacting the first 40 or so on FB I lost a lot of motivation. If you ran it past them for me, I would really appreciate it.

I hate to say it, but I think the biggest short coming was the lack of social media representation. I did very little to promote this on twitter or FB or reddit, and because of that the reach wasn't as far as it should've been. The year is 20xx and people no longer check smashboards :138:.
Yea, all true

Perhaps after EVO 2015 would be the best time to really go full force with trying to get an official 2015 tier list. Let the results and feelings about characters soak in after such a massive culmination of high level Melee smashing.
 
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TheEpicCD56

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
10
S: (can win majors)
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
S-: (can win nationals, can compete in majors)
Peach
Jigglypuff
A+: (can win state tournaments, can compete in nationals)
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Samus
A: (can win regionals, can compete in state tournaments)
Pikachu
Luigi
Yoshi
A-: (Can win locals, can compete in regionals)
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Mario
B: (Can compete in locals, not viable in majors)
Link
Young Link
Donkey Kong
B-: (Can compete in locals if player is skilled enough, not viable in majors)
Mewtwo
Mr. Game and Watch
F: (not viable)
Ness
Roy
Zelda
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu
(Take this list with a grain of salt if you like, I'm not exactly the metagame guru, if you know what i mean.)
 

_____.

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Messages
6
Location
Centerville, Utah
SS Tier (wins top tournaments)
1. fox
2. falco/marth
4. sheik
S Tier (wins specific to top players)
5. jiggs/peach
7. ice climbers
8. captain falcon
A Tier (viable)
9. samus/pika/ganon
12. luigi/doc mario
14. young link
B Tier (viable for specific players)
15. yoshi
16. mario
17. link
18. zelda
Z Tier (bad)
19. roy
20. dk
21. bowser
22. ness
23. mewtwo
24. g&w
25. pichu
26. kirby
 
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Apple275

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
13
S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Shiek
5. Puff
6. Peach
7. Falcon
8. ICs
S: (can win majors)
Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
S-: (can win nationals, can compete in majors)
Peach
Jigglypuff
A+: (can win state tournaments, can compete in nationals)
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Samus
A: (can win regionals, can compete in state tournaments)
Pikachu
Luigi
Yoshi
A-: (Can win locals, can compete in regionals)
Dr. Mario
Ganondorf
Mario
B: (Can compete in locals, not viable in majors)
Link
Young Link
Donkey Kong
B-: (Can compete in locals if player is skilled enough, not viable in majors)
Mewtwo
Mr. Game and Watch
F: (not viable)
Ness
Roy
Zelda
Kirby
Bowser
Pichu
(Take this list with a grain of salt if you like, I'm not exactly the metagame guru, if you know what i mean.)
A Tier
9. Pika
10. Doc
11. Ganon
12. Luigi
13. Samus
14. Mario
15. Yoshi

B Tier
16. YL
17. Link
18. DK
19. Roy
20. G&W
21. Pichu
22. Zelda

F Tier
23. Mewtwo
24. Kirby
25. Ness
26. Bowser

EDIT: Added separators for tiers.

EDIT 2: Brought Pichu to 21, moved Zelda and Mewtwo down to compensate.
 

Apple275

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
13
These tier lists seem like they're more about the quantity and quality of the players rather than how good the actual character is...
 

Wreckarooni

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
197
Location
Midwest
These tier lists seem like they're more about the quantity and quality of the players rather than how good the actual character is...
Not exactly true, but if we adhere precisely to what you'd want then there would never be a need for new tier lists ever. If we just went on "how good a character is" then there should have only been one tier list made and that should have been absolutely right from the beginning. Only through usage and practical application from their mains does it become apparent that people are wrong or right about characters like Puff, Zelda, Mario, Falcon, Pikachu, Yoshi etc.

Looking at actual rankings and usage with these characters is far more reliable than using biased and perhaps inexperienced opinions about their abilities. It's nice to theory craft and play out hypotheticals but it's very likely people are naive to some important counterpoint that destroys their reasoning. Or when put into practical usage it is ineffective or detrimental. It doesn't matter how much better you think Character A might be then Character B, if not enough people use Character A or none at all then it's all hearsay or based on an outdated meta.

I think guessing a character's potential or future viability is a waste of time when considering a CURRENT tier list. The whole point of a tier list with a year attached to it is to serve as a snap shot of the viability of the characters right now (as seen by the top players). If we keep speculating about future prospects of a character then no tier list should even be solidified and we would all just keep discussing a tier list until the end of time never deciding.
 
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CAUP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
467
I think a good criteria for if a player's vote should be counted is if they have made it out of pools at a national.

I can bug drugged fox and s0ft to vote but those are the only people I have access to.
 

Dublin

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
3
I generally agree with this. Why would you put Peach and Jiggs ahead of Falcon, though?


This is the community tier list we made on r/ssbm

S TIer
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon

A Tier
8. Ice Climbers
9. Samus
10. Pikachu
11. Yoshi

B Tier
12. Luigi
13. Dr. Mario
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario
16. Young Link

C Tier
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong
19. Mr. Game & Watch

F Tier
20. Ness
21. Roy
22. Mewtwo
23. Zelda
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby
 

Dublin

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
3
I guess I'll make my own list. I'm pretty much a smash rookie, but these are my opinions as of July 12, 2015.


S Tier
(Always viable to win)

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Falcon
6. Peach
7. Jigglypuff

A Tier ( Viable to win in the right hands)

8. Ice Climbers
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Yoshi
12. Luigi
13. Doctor Mario
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario

B Tier (Barely viable, but still can plausibly win)

16. Young Link
17. Link
18. Donkey Kong

F Tier
( Never viable. Bad / Trash characters)

19. Zelda
20. Game & Watch
22. Ness
23. Roy
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

Let me know what you think of this list! The current "official" tier list from 2013 certainly needs to be updated. The biggest changes that should be made are Marth > Sheik and Yoshi needs to jump up from the 18th best to the 11th best.

-Josh Dublin
 

Wreckarooni

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2015
Messages
197
Location
Midwest
I generally agree with this. Why would you put Peach and Jiggs ahead of Falcon, though?
I think the better question to ask yourself is why you have Falcon at 5th, and why you would ever put HIM above Jiggs and Peach.
 

thegrovylekid

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 2, 2015
Messages
58
I generally agree with this. Why would you put Peach and Jiggs ahead of Falcon, though?
Because Peach and Jigglypuff have 2 of the best recoveries and edgeguarding game, Peach has among the best projectiles in the game and an incredibly potent down smash, and Jiggs has a move that KO's every viable character at around 25% that is easily comboed into.
 

Dublin

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
3
I think the better question to ask yourself is why you have Falcon at 5th, and why you would ever put HIM above Jiggs and Peach.
I would say that in a theoretical sense, Falcon only loses to the four best of the top tier characters ( Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik)

With Falcon's speed and his new tech that is being developed, I can see his top level of play just getting higher and higher. Mango recently has been experimenting with Falcon in majors and he has been doing very well. Also, people like S2J and Wizzrobe are going to continue placing extremely well at majors.

So I would say that we have developed most of what makes Jiggs and Peach so formidable, but there is still much more to be done with Falcon.

Falcon is also very rarely played perfectly, but I think if he is played extremely well, with regard to the improving Falcon meta, he is better against top tiers than Jiggs and Puff.

The tier list is supposed to represent the rank of the characters at the top level of play, and I think Falcon played at top level is slightly better than Jiggs or Peach.
 

Spoice

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
235
Location
England, Birmingham
NNID
snoopertrooper
I would say that in a theoretical sense, Falcon only loses to the four best of the top tier characters ( Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik)

With Falcon's speed and his new tech that is being developed, I can see his top level of play just getting higher and higher. Mango recently has been experimenting with Falcon in majors and he has been doing very well. Also, people like S2J and Wizzrobe are going to continue placing extremely well at majors.

So I would say that we have developed most of what makes Jiggs and Peach so formidable, but there is still much more to be done with Falcon.

Falcon is also very rarely played perfectly, but I think if he is played extremely well, with regard to the improving Falcon meta, he is better against top tiers than Jiggs and Puff.

The tier list is supposed to represent the rank of the characters at the top level of play, and I think Falcon played at top level is slightly better than Jiggs or Peach.
Fox and Falco are Falcon's only true problems imo, Sheik he can avoid her tech chases with speed (in the PAL regions it's an even matchup due to her losing her tech chasing ability imo) Jigglypuff only has the advantage of offstage I believe, she can't really survive Falcon's hits too well, but I would still say it is in her favour, just not as much as before. Marth, well there's not much to say, just go look at Scar vs Ken KoC 2 or any other matches between these two characters. Peach, pretty easy to handle with, can't deal with Falcon getting all close and ICs, Falcon's speed can just mess up their game plan real quick. One good grab and Nana is gone.
 

pizzapie7

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
531
I don't get why it would be hard for someone to just type something up in a facebook message at you but then again I can see myself stopping after like ganondorf because every other character is **** and irrelevant. really though how difficult is it to type less than 30 words. I know Tafo has talked about how much trouble he had getting people who already volunteered to do the MIOM Top 100 to actually do it, maybe something similar is happening here? Maybe wait until after EVO when people have more time to sit around and think about theory behind who's better between Roy and Ness.

I'd post by list but since I only check Smashboards like once every few months I didn't see this thread until after the deadline had past. I'm also ****ing awful though so my list shouldn't be included.
 

NastyNard

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Messages
26
Ok, good news and bad news.

Good news: there were over 1000 votes in one month and in the first 24 hours alone there were over 500 votes! This completely exceeded my expectations, I am blown away by how popular this was!

Bad news: almost no top players voted. I haven't compiled statistics yet, but it seems only 1-2 MIOM top 100 players voted. Out of the Smashboards top 200, I estimate less than 10. This seriously threatens the validity of the resulting list.

There are a few options. One, pester top players to submit a tier list vote to me (despite deadline being past). Two, use the data already provided but alter the acceptance criteria for the high level list. Three, abandon having a high level list and output a single community list. Four, abandon the project entirely.

I am leaning towards option two, as I don't feel like pestering players who had plenty of notice (I assume they weren't interested, harassing them wont change their mind). The main problem with changing the criteria is acceptance becomes highly arbitrary and dependent on my own biases. Option four is preferable to option three in my opinion, or at least equally bad. I would be willing to accept votes from players for the next month or so, but eventually it must end and the votes tallied.
Well, it's obvious from the replies and tournament results that there are some changes from 2013 that are fairly well agreed upon - the biggest ones are marth and yoshi rising, and I think the old list messed up pretty badly in regards to the A-tier so that could definitely benefit from being revamped...still, if the top players aren't even interested in this I don't see how we can justify using bad data. The situation in 2013 was pretty similar, and IMO that list did not turn out well.
 

vien

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
16
Location
Spookyville, MDVA, USA
SS Tier - [At each of these characters maximum potential, they can win Supermajors and anything below, totally viable]
1. :foxmelee:Fox
2. :marthmelee:Marth
3. :falcomelee:Falco
4. :sheikmelee:Sheik
5. :jigglypuffmelee:Jigglypuff
6. :peachmelee:Peach

A Tier - [At each of these characters maximum potential, they could win locals and friendlies, viable]
7. :falconmelee:Captain Falcon
8. :icsmelee:Ice Climbers
9. :samusmelee:Samus
10. :luigimelee:Luigi
11. :pikachumelee:Pikachu
12. :ganondorfmelee:Ganondorf
13. :yoshimelee:Yoshi
14. :drmario:Dr Mario
15. :mariomelee:Mario

F Tier - [At each of these character's maximum potential, they could maybe win friendlies, not viable]
16. :younglinkmelee:Young Link
17. :linkmelee:Link
18. :dkmelee:Donkey Kong
19. :zeldamelee:Zelda
20. :nessmelee:Ness
21. :gawmelee:Mr. Game and watch
22. :pichumelee:Pichu
23. :mewtwomelee:Mewtwo
24. :roymelee:Roy
25. :kirbymelee:Kirby
26. :bowsermelee:Bowser
 
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Lime Cultivist

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
97
Location
Long Island
3DS FC
3368-3457-2010
Seems there are still posts, might as well add what I think. Not a huge difference when compared to the official list, but here's my thoughts on it so far -

S Tier:
1. :foxmelee:
2. :falcomelee:
3. :marthmelee:
4. :sheikmelee:
5. :jigglypuffmelee:
6. :peachmelee:
7. :falconmelee:
8. :icsmelee:

A Tier:
9. :samusmelee:
10. :pikachumelee:
11. :luigimelee:
12. :drmario:
13. :yoshimelee:

B Tier:
14. :ganondorfmelee:
15. :mariomelee:
16. :younglinkmelee:
17. :linkmelee:

C Tier:
18. :dkmelee:
19. :zeldamelee:
20. :roymelee:
21. :gawmelee:
22. :nessmelee:
23. :mewtwomelee:

F Tier:
24: :pichumelee:
25. :bowsermelee:
26. :kirbymelee:
 
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