Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Spoice]

I think people generally play Falcon more merely because he is more fun to use, but IC has a better wavedash, CC, smash attacks, and wobbling.

Even then, I don't think those traits are enough to justify placing him above Captain Falcon. ICs become pretty damn weak after losing their CPU controller partner, and considering wobbling is basically every smashers fear, taking out Nana is priority, which most people have gotten pretty good at doing.
ICs do have an incredible wavedash, that's true, but that's essentially their only good movement option. Wavelanding doesn't seem to be of much benefit to them (at least from matches I've seen, it doesn't appear to be used often) and compared to falcon that's nothing. Falcon has:
dash dancing
moonwalk
wavedash
waveland
All these put together correctly can really mess with an opponent and make Falcon deadly on pretty much any of the legal stages.
Smash attacks are about the same in my eyes, ICs do have alright smash attacks, but most of the time, a Falcon player shouldn't even be using their smash attacks tbh. Let's be honest, if you wanna get anywhere with Falcon, you gotta combo into his knee, f-smash and d-smash are mostly used for reads or easy edgeguards (like a spacie using side b to get back on stage or getting a bad angle on their up b)
Honestly, the only thing I can say that ICs trumps Falcon in is CCs, but considering Falcons should mostly be comboing you, CC isn't gonna get you far in the air. Wobbling you can argue helps ICs, but considering it should be every smashers priority to take out the CPU partner, it isn't as big of a threat as it used to be, back when everybody underestimated ICs (Wobbles EVO 2013 proves this, considering he took games off of three of the five gods with ICs)

 

[EddyBearr]

The presence of legitimate hitboxes and meaningful results are probably enough to put IC's above Falcon.

They've also got a pretty good dash dance, the best wavedash (3 frame jumpsquat), and desynchs out of movement. Their vertical movement isn't the best, but it's decent alongside uair/fair sharking and their waveland.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

We are actually going to get a new tier list :O

If we ever resolve the lingering issue... Theres not enough (quality) votes to make a respectable list.

 

[Diddy Kong]

S Tier: The best characters in the game, period. Have amazing matchup spreads, and are just a league above any other character. These characters are going to dominate in the finals of every major tournament.

1)
2)
3)
4)

S- Tier: Characters who are also great, but have some certain unfavorable matchups to the S tiers which make their way into finals somewhat more lucky. Most of the noticable players of these characters, also have a S tier co-main.

5)
6)
7)

A Tier: Characters that also have a fighting chance in scoring high in tournaments, but without the significance of any other above characters due to representation. These characters could thrive tremendously if the other player has bad matchup experience against these characters.

8)
9)
10)

B Tier: Characters who are still viable, but don't really have the best chances to win a major tournament. Best suited as an extra secondary or co-main character. Haven't quite gotten good results in a while. And are starting to wane off more now that a more experienced Melee meta has established. Borderline to questionable viability, even though there are nice results of all these characters.

11)
12)
13)

C Tier: Little representation, mostly characters who are picked in certain matchups that they think they have a fighting chance against. Not solid characters overall, and likely have disadvantagous matchups against 70% of the above mentoined cast. Likely thrive mostly in Low Tier tourneys, if they are allowed there.

14)
15)
16)
17)
18)

D Tier: Characters who are simply, unviable. Only extremely skilled and dedicated players can have significant results with these. They create a lot of hype from only seeing them, everyone think they are gutsy for even chosing this character. This should only testify how bad they actually are.

19)
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25)
26)

 

[_____.]

Even then, I don't think those traits are enough to justify placing him above Captain Falcon.

Those are all good points, so I guess it's just a matter of opinion. The two characters are very different in play-style, so I guess it's like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[_____.]

Even then, I don't think those traits are enough to justify placing him above Captain Falcon.

Also, IC has one of the highest skill-caps of any character in the game, along with the spacies and yoshi.

 

[Sempai]

S Tier: The best characters in the game, period. Have amazing matchup spreads, and are just a league above any other character. These characters are going to dominate in the finals of every major tournament.

1)
2)
3)
4)

S- Tier: Characters who are also great, but have some certain unfavorable matchups to the S tiers which make their way into finals somewhat more lucky. Most of the noticable players of these characters, also have a S tier co-main.

5)
6)
7)

A Tier: Characters that also have a fighting chance in scoring high in tournaments, but without the significance of any other above characters due to representation. These characters could thrive tremendously if the other player has bad matchup experience against these characters.

8)
9)
10)

B Tier: Characters who are still viable, but don't really have the best chances to win a major tournament. Best suited as an extra secondary or co-main character. Haven't quite gotten good results in a while. And are starting to wane off more now that a more experienced Melee meta has established. Borderline to questionable viability, even though there are nice results of all these characters.

11)
12)
13)

C Tier: Little representation, mostly characters who are picked in certain matchups that they think they have a fighting chance against. Not solid characters overall, and likely have disadvantagous matchups against 70% of the above mentoined cast. Likely thrive mostly in Low Tier tourneys, if they are allowed there.

14)
15)
16)
17)
18)

D Tier: Characters who are simply, unviable. Only extremely skilled and dedicated players can have significant results with these. They create a lot of hype from only seeing them, everyone think they are gutsy for even chosing this character. This should only testify how bad they actually are.

19)
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25)
26)

This.
I agree with all of this actually, I can tell you have been playing for as long as I have

 

[MudkipUniverse]

S Tier
1.
2.
3.
4.

A Tier
5.
6.
7.

B Tier
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.

B- Tier
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.

C Tier
20.
21.
22.

D Tier
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[Masondeanm]

If we ever resolve the lingering issue... Theres not enough (quality) votes to make a respectable list.

I would like to see the results regardless of weather it would be an official tier list or not.

 

[EddyBearr]

How many times do Ice Climbers need to get top 8 or better at the hugest events with so many different players, and how many times must Ice Climbers out-perform Captain Falcon, before people stop thinking they're "mid tier"?

 

[Spak]

How many times do Ice Climbers need to get top 8 or better at the hugest events with so many different players, and how many times must Ice Climbers out-perform Captain Falcon, before people stop thinking they're "mid tier"?

Chu had an easier bracket than Darkrain, who had a chance at top 8 after getting into top 32, but then got put into losers by PP and put out of losers by Westballz (with the hardest Falcon counter i n the game). Meanwhile, Chu got a couple Samuses (that Sopo at the end of the HugS v. Chudat match wes pretty hype, tho). If Chu had to go against PP and then the hardest ICs counter in the game, he might have had more trouble.

 

[Plunder]

It's mostly just the delusional Falcon supporters who will keep talking that nonsense

I don't think Chu's performance is any indication of anything unfortunately. Spak brings up very good points, Fly who is still regarded as a better play didn't make it as far. If Chu had played a bunch of peaches and top spacies he would not have made it to top 8, if he had Fly's path he would not have made it to top 16 at all or perhaps even top 32. There were also quite a few Sheiks this EVO, and iirc Sheik is a favorable MU for ICs.

Now having said all that Both Chu and Ken really impressed me, and they have proven that they are forces to be reckoned with again (seeding is still a factor though). I'm really proud of Chu for getting to top 8, I was shocked to see Hugs lose to Chu since I consider ICs pretty damn easy for Samus (Plup's Samus destroys any ICs). Hugs was choking hard, but still I'm definitely a fan of upsets like the ones I've seen so far, it brings more passion and entertainment to Melee.

Edit: I'd say Mango - Chudat is about 99 - 1......If Chudat even takes a game off Mango I will definitely be shocked and I'll eat my words.

 

[EddyBearr]

Chu had an easier bracket than Darkrain, who had a chance at top 8 after getting into top 32, but then got put into losers by PP and put out of losers by Westballz (with the hardest Falcon counter i n the game). Meanwhile, Chu got a couple Samuses (that Sopo at the end of the HugS v. Chudat match wes pretty hype, tho). If Chu had to go against PP and then the hardest ICs counter in the game, he might have had more trouble.

I see nothing "easy" about Silent Wolf, then Westballz, then HugS compared to Darkrain's bracket. Who put them into loser's is null imo, since getting put into loser's doesn't make one lose the tournament. Likewise, Chu only got one Samus, with Samus being a quite bad matchup for IC's, so I don't see how "Chu got a couple Samuses" even comes close to saying Chu had an easy bracket.

If Chu had played a bunch of peaches and top spacies he would not have made it to top 8, if he had Fly's path he would not have made it to top 16 at all or perhaps even top 32. There were also quite a few Sheiks this EVO, and iirc Sheik is a favorable MU for ICs.

He did face top spacies (Silent Wolf, Westballz), and then played Samus, which is awful for IC's just as Peach is. I see no reason to think Fly's potential top 32 bracket was harder than Chu's, or how you can say Chu wouldn't get top 16 if he played Ice instead of Silent Wolf. Sheik-IC's is slight IC favor or even, not a huge advantage.

 

[Plunder]

I see nothing "easy" about Silent Wolf, then Westballz, then HugS compared to Darkrain's bracket. Who put them into loser's is null imo, since getting put into loser's doesn't make one lose the tournament. Likewise, Chu only got one Samus, with Samus being a quite bad matchup for IC's, so I don't see how "Chu got a couple Samuses" even comes close to saying Chu had an easy bracket.


He did face top spacies (Silent Wolf, Westballz), and then played Samus, which is awful for IC's just as Peach is. I see no reason to think Fly's potential top 32 bracket was harder than Chu's, or how you can say Chu wouldn't get top 16 if he played Ice instead of Silent Wolf. Sheik-IC's is slight IC favor or even, not a huge advantage.

Eddy I won't argue with you, I'll just say a few things here.

A lot of the top players this Evo were choking hard and not playing well: KK, WestBallz, Fly, Mango, DJN, Hugs, AmSa, etc
While a lot of underdogs and "unknowns" seemed to come out of nowhere and were having crazy upsets such as: Druggedfox, Far, Light, Ken, Chu, Zhu

- Ice had been playing better than WestBallz
- WestBallz lost to Ken 0-2 .... DOUBLE 3 STOCK
- WestBallz seems to always lose very convincingly to ICs (specifically Fly), he's bad at the MU
- As I said Samus is indeed a hard MU for ICs, but not nearly as hard as Peach, c'mon.
- Hugs choked really hard and was not playing very well. Do you think Hugs was playing even at 75% that match? That last game?
- Also I never said "huge advantage" for ICs-Sheik (most agree it's slight advantage to 60:40)
- Chu got KK early who as I said wasn't playing at 100%, is bad at the MU, and the MU is in ICs favor.

Take a look at AmSa's journey for instance....he got knocked into losers by Light, an unknown random Peach. Think about how many MUs and player one-on-ones are being lost in a non-round robin. What if AmSa never had to face Light, but instead an even better top 100 MIOM ranked player that just wasn't as good at the Yoshi MU. And AmSa won which might have set him on a path to get Chu's spot in top 8 instead. There is a bit of luck in the seeding ESPECIALLY when it comes to character MUs (crazy example - If you're a top ICs player but everyone in your pool is a Peach main)

I feel like this EVO has been amazing so far, but there have been some very unreliable situations caused by player performance and seeding that make me question any conclusions for characters.

I am not one of the crazies that think ICs are mid tier, they are fine right where they are at. In fact there is a case to be made for them to be above Falcon since there is a national win and higher placings usually for them.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Eddy I won't argue with you, I'll just say a few things here.

A lot of the top players this Evo were choking hard and not playing well: KK, WestBallz, Fly, Mango, DJN, Hugs, AmSa, etc
While a lot of underdogs and "unknowns" seemed to come out of nowhere and were having crazy upsets such as: Druggedfox, Far, Light, Ken, Chu, Zhu

- Ice had been playing better than WestBallz
- WestBallz lost to Ken 0-2 .... DOUBLE 3 STOCK
- WestBallz seems to always lose very convincingly to ICs (specifically Fly), he's bad at the MU
- As I said Samus is indeed a hard MU for ICs, but not nearly as hard as Peach, c'mon.
- Hugs chocked really hard and was not playing very well. Do you think Hugs was playing even at 75% that match? That last game?
- Also I never said "huge advantage" for ICs-Sheik (most agree it's slight advantage to 60:40)
- Chu got KK early who as I said wasn't playing at 100%, is bad at the MU, and the MU is in ICs favor.

Take a look at AmSa's journey for instance....he got knocked into losers by Light, an unknown random Peach. Think about how many MUs and player one-on-ones are being lost in a non-round robin. What if AmSa never had to face Light, but instead an even better top 100 MIOM ranked player that just wasn't as good at the Yoshi MU. And AmSa won which might have set him on a path to get Chu's spot in top 8 instead. There is a bit of luck in the seeding ESPECIALLY when it comes to character MUs (crazy example - If you're a top ICs player but everyone in your pool is a Peach main)

I feel like this EVO has been amazing so far, but there have been some very unreliable situations caused by player performance and seeding that make me question any conclusions for characters.

I am not one of the crazies that think ICs are mid tier, they are fine right where they are at. In fact there is a case to be made for them to be above Falcon since there is a national win and higher placings usually for them.

This kid probably got trolled by chudat hard so he hates him now. It's not the ICS, its chu. Respect your elders kid....

 

[Vigihes]

 

[pichuplayer]

if it counts for anything this is not a troll list
S
Falco
Fox
Shiek
Pikachu
ICs
Peach
C.Falcon
Jigglypuff
Marth
Pichu another hard character to place it might just be that i main Pichu that i put him this high but i do think he is very good
A
Yoshi
Gannon
Dr.Mario
Samus
Luigi
B
Roy he was the hardest to place he was top of B or mid A
DK
Mr. G and W
Mario
Y.Link
Link
F
Ness
Mewtwo
Bowser
Zelda
Kirby
tell me if i missed anyone

 

[Spoice]

After watching Plup toss around Leffen's Fox like a ragdoll, can we all agree Samus needs to be God tier?

 

[Plunder]

After watching Plup toss around Leffen's Fox like a ragdoll, can we all agree Samus needs to be God tier?

Samus has always been about even with Spacies, and has never really had trouble taking sets or games off top spacies.


But she has issues with almost every other top tier except ICs. That MU spread puts her where she belongs, high A tier.

Also Leffen and Westballz are both terrible at the Samus MU, so 1 or 2 people can't dictate any real changes for a character as you know.

 

[Spoice]

Samus has always been about even with Spacies, and has never really had trouble taking sets or games off top spacies.


But she has issues with almost every other top tier except ICs. That MU spread puts her where she belongs, high A tier.

Also Leffen and Westballz are both terrible at the Samus MU, so 1 or 2 people can't dictate any real changes for a character as you know.

Well it was a joke, but ok.

 

[Plunder]

Well it was a joke, but ok.

We don't have time for jokes. Tires are serious.

 

[Mervis]

if it counts for anything
S
Fox
Pikachu
Falco
Shiek
ICs
Peach
C.Falcon
Jigglypuff
Marth
A
Yoshi
Gannon
Dr.Mario
Pichu
Bowser
Samus
Luigi
B
DK
Mr. G and W
Mario
Mewtwo
Y. Link
F
Ness
Link
Zelda
Kirby
tell me if i missed anyone

Lel

 

[Spoice]

Lel

I support this lel.

 

[Spak]

if it counts for anything
S
Fox
Pikachu
Falco
Shiek
ICs
Peach
C.Falcon
Jigglypuff
Marth
A
Yoshi
Gannon
Dr.Mario
Pichu
Bowser
Samus
Luigi
B
DK
Mr. G and W
Mario
Mewtwo
Y. Link
F
Ness
Link
Zelda
Kirby
tell me if i missed anyone

You missed Our Boy.

 

[Plunder]

You missed Our Boy.

I'm kind of afraid of where he would put Roy on that list.

I'm going to have nightmares tonight about this list

 

[pichuplayer]

You missed Our Boy.

sorry He is B tier

 

[pichuplayer]

sorry He is B tier

at the top

 

[Mervis]

at the top

Thank god. Your tierlist would have been irrelevant if you didn't add in Roy.

 

[pichuplayer]

Thank god. Your tierlist would have been irrelevant if you didn't add in Roy.

yeah sorry thought i did

 

[Shadow Light Master]

legitimate hitboxes

What.

 

[EddyBearr]

What.

They come out quickly, are disjointed, and have decent priority. Very few Falcon hitboxes have these traits.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

They come out quickly, are disjointed, and have decent priority. Very few Falcon hitboxes have these traits.

What is an illegitimate hitbox?

 

[EddyBearr]

What is an illegitimate hitbox?

A hitbox that loses against the high tier characters in regards to interactions and controlling space.

The closest thing Falcon has to that is probably nair, where he boisterously sticks his foot in front of his opponents for them to chop off.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

A hitbox that loses against the high tier characters in regards to interactions and controlling space.

The closest thing Falcon has to that is probably nair, where he boisterously sticks his foot in front of his opponents for them to chop off.

Thank you for your explanation, but I was merely pointing out that all hitboxes are legitimate... Whether or not a character has good hitboxes on their moves has nothing to do with whether it's real or not, lol.

 

[EddyBearr]

Thank you for your explanation, but I was merely pointing out that all hitboxes are legitimate... Whether or not a character has good hitboxes on their moves has nothing to do with whether it's real or not, lol.

I do not consider them real.

 

[pichuplayer]

am i the only one that thinks pichu is good

 

[pichuplayer]

I'm kind of afraid of where he would put Roy on that list.

I'm going to have nightmares tonight about this list

Hey what's that supposed to mean?!

 

[Plunder]

Hey what's that supposed to mean?!

Oh man why am I about to waste time typing this....

I find it hard to believe you didn't recognize the blatant sarcasm from Mervis and the fact then 2 have laughed in reply to your list (and 5 more agreed)

if it counts for anything
S
Fox
Pikachu
Falco
Shiek
ICs
Peach
C.Falcon
Jigglypuff
Marth
A
Yoshi
Gannon
Dr.Mario
Pichu
Bowser
Samus
Luigi
B
Roy he was the hardest to place he was top of B or mid A
DK
Mr. G and W
Mario
Mewtwo
Y. Link
F
Ness
Link
Zelda
Kirby
tell me if i missed anyone

Here are the problems:

Pikachu
Pichu
Bowser
Roy
Y.Link
Link

Just putting Pichu and Bowser above Samus....I'm not even sure what insane dimension that idea came from or in what alternate universe bizarro version of Melee where that could ever be true.

Also, don't double post and no....no other competent player in their right mind would put Pichu as high as you have. If you still think Pichu is that good it's quite obvious you haven't even tried any of the other characters that are clearly above him (which would be EVERY character).

 

[pichuplayer]

Oh man why am I about to waste time typing this....

I find it hard to believe you didn't recognize the blatant sarcasm from Mervis and the fact then 2 have laughed in reply to your list (and 5 more agreed)




Here are the problems:

Pikachu
Pichu
Bowser
Roy
Y.Link
Link

Just putting Pichu and Bowser above Samus....I'm not even sure what insane dimension that idea came from or in what alternate universe bizarro version of Melee where that could ever be true.

Also, don't double post and no....no other competent player in their right mind would put Pichu as high as you have. If you still think Pichu is that good it's quite obvious you haven't even tried any of the other characters that are clearly above him (which would be EVERY character).

i do play a lot of characters like fox falco pikachu pichu Yoshi bowser and samus i didn't realize the sarcasm (sorry) and i will fix the problems to be honest this was not a troll list but looking at it now i see what your saying i will change it again sorry

 

[Plunder]

i do play a lot of characters like fox falco pikachu pichu Yoshi bowser and samus i didn't realize the sarcasm (sorry) and i will fix the problems to be honest this was not a troll list but looking at it now i see what your saying i will change it again sorry

You don't have to change it if you don't want to. If it's your opinion....it's your opinion. I'm just letting you know what the overwhelming consensus is among the top players about these characters.

I'm curious though, in what capacity do you "play" these characters? I'm bewildered how you could form such a list even if you had attended something as rudimentary as even one local tournament....