Meta 2015 Community Tier List Voting

[Comet7]

@ everyone who puts Kirby above Zelda because "at least he has a bair"

You realize that Zelda's bair is miles better, and she has a similar fair which allows for more setups of a similar move, and she's a relatively heavy, floaty character that can escape many combos, and she has one of the best Dsmashes in the game, and she has a generally better recovery than Kirby, and her throws and dash attack are far better, and she has slightly better matchups in general because of these qualities, right?

Sure, they're both bad, but Zelda is no way in hell worse than Kirby.

no, that's just what the ignorant people say. kirby's better because he has a lot of other good moves, like his all his tilts and aerials (excluding nair) along with crouch.

kirby's ground game >>>> that. he can actually play the neutral game decently in some matchups whereas zelda has to pray that people run into her kicks, which inevitably happens sometimes because of how naturally good they are, but the character doesn't have many other options. zelda still be combo'd a lot since she's decently big and being floaty doesn't help (iirc this is why zelda vs falcon is nearly hopeless). everything else you said is pointless unless you want to talk about application of those moves. wait, why did you question yourself?

 

[jcx]

Just asking, why do we need to submit our full names? I, for one, wish to remain anonymous in terms of name, even though I'm fine showing my tag...

 

[jcx]

Whoops, duplicate post. My web didn't tell me that it posted, and when I refreshed th page, the text I entered in the reply box was still there.

 

[Brinzy]

I didn't question myself, I said, "You realize... right?" Full points for attempting to be cute though.

Yeah Falcon's bad for Zelda, but Falcon's also bad for Kirby. What matchup can you think of is easier for Kirby than it is for Zelda? You talk about tilts being so good, but I'm pretty sure Zelda's Dsmash comes out faster than his tilts and is a much stronger move than any of those. This ignores her Fsmash, which actually has solid priority and coverage. Yeah, most of her ground moves are terrible, but the same can be said for Kirby.

As for aerials, I'm definitely going to say that Zelda's two good aerials are better than Kirby's four decent aerials, according to you. The fact that her abilities have more range actually allows her to be play infinitely better as a defensive character than Kirby. Also, you know, aerials that reliably KO in double digits and come out pretty fast are pretty good moves. Offensively they're both weak, but I don't see what makes Kirby's offense any better.

everything else you said is pointless unless you want to talk about application of those moves.

Ok, Uthrow chaingrab on like half the top tiers? High damage throws for getting characters off stage or for potential tech chases? Kirby has throws that you can mash out of, so I don't see how you can expect to argue that his throws are better. An actual usable dash attack that can combo into her best abilities and set up more potential chases/edgeguards? Pretty sure Kirby's dash attack is vying for worst in the game.

Literally every follow-up I can think of that Kirby has on certain characters, Zelda can also followup in a similar situation, such as low % aerial chaining. Her grab is terrible, but landing a grab on, say, Falco at 60-70% can easily be death for him because of not-so-unrealistic follows on her throws with bair/fair. What does Kirby do to secure KOs again?

She has so many actual applications of her moves that I don't see how I needed to compare all of them to Kirby in detail for you.

 

[jcx]

I didn't question myself, I said, "You realize... right?" Full points for attempting to be cute though.

Yeah Falcon's bad for Zelda, but Falcon's also bad for Kirby. What matchup can you think of is easier for Kirby than it is for Zelda? You talk about tilts being so good, but I'm pretty sure Zelda's Dsmash comes out faster than his tilts and is a much stronger move than any of those. This ignores her Fsmash, which actually has solid priority and coverage. Yeah, most of her ground moves are terrible, but the same can be said for Kirby.

As for aerials, I'm definitely going to say that Zelda's two good aerials are better than Kirby's four decent aerials, according to you. The fact that her abilities have more range actually allows her to be play infinitely better as a defensive character than Kirby. Offensively they're both weak, but I don't see what makes Kirby's offense any better.

"Everything else you said is pointless unless you want to talk about the application of those moves"

Ok, Uthrow chaingrab on like half the top tiers? High damage throws for getting characters off stage or for potential tech chases? Kirby has throws that you can mash out of, so I don't see how you can expect to argue that his throws are better. An actual usable dash attack that can combo into her best abilities and set up more potential chases/edgeguards? Pretty sure Kirby's dash attack is vying for worst in the game.

Literally every follow-up I can think of that Kirby has on certain characters, Zelda can also followup in a similar situation, such as low % aerial chaining. Her grab is terrible, but landing a grab on, say, Falco at 60-70% can easily be death for him because of not-so-unrealistic follows on her throws with bair/fair. What does Kirby do to secure KOs again?

She has so many actual applications of her moves that I don't see how I needed to compare all of them to Kirby in detail for you.

Did you mention that Kirby's recovery is ridiculously easy to edgehog/edgeguard? Much easier than Zelda's, I'd say.

 

[Brinzy]

Did you mention that Kirby's recovery is ridiculously easy to edgehog/edgeguard? Much easier than Zelda's, I'd say.

Yeah, in my first post I mentioned that her recovery was infinitely better. It has problems, but at least she has real aerial mobility and a real Up B to get back to the stage. She moves through the air invincible and invisible at a decent enough distance, and on platform stages you have multiple options to get back on. You could even Nayru's to slow yourself in case anyone jumps out at you.

Kirby's recovery is not possibly better than this.

 

[Comet7]

If you didn't want me to interpret it like that, then learn how to speak english better.

Please, don't ever directly compare two moves again. Talk about how moves are useful and contribute to winning matches instead of wasting my time by saying "kirby's dash attack is useless" because everyone on the planet already knows that. Actually, there's the instant grab out of dash attack swag.

Marth, Falcon, and Sheik (probably) are better for Kirby. I don't know much about the Sheik vs Zelda MU, but it's the only one that the local Zelda main in my area won't bother with. From what little I do know, Sheik's shield pressure destroys Zelda. Jab (frame 2) should make kicks OoS not as good as they would be in other matchups.

Kirby vs Marth is not that bad. Kirby can use his duck to avoid grabs and condition Marth to d tilt. This makes approaching fairs from Kirby viable, and ge can work fron there. This is a tldr version of one of Cereal Rabbit's posts, btw.

I just know that Kirby doesn't wrecked as badly as Zelda vs Falcon. I forget how exactly the neutral should be played as Kirby.

Both recoveries are horrible so it doesn't matter. Zelda is pretty much dead if she has to recover from below and she has a enough landing lag to be punished if she doesn't go onto a platform. Kirby can make his recovery work in niche scenarios like Zelda can so w/e. I'd still gove te edge to Zelda, but since both of their recoveries are awful, it doesn't matter.

 

[Wreckarooni]

@ everyone who puts Kirby above Zelda because "at least he has a bair"

You realize that Zelda's bair is miles better, and she has a similar fair which allows for more setups of a similar move, and she's a relatively heavy, floaty character that can escape many combos, and she has one of the best Dsmashes in the game, and she has a generally better recovery than Kirby, and her throws and dash attack are far better, and she has slightly better matchups in general because of these qualities, right?

Sure, they're both bad, but Zelda is no way in hell worse than Kirby.

Well Leffen and Triple R both think Kirby is more viable than Zelda, and place him higher on their tier lists. Cereal Rabbit and Nizro do as well.

Armada has an awesome high level Kirby I'm pretty sure he'd place him above Zelda. I haven't heard those words exactly when NTSC Kirby is involved, but he has discussed Kirby being underrated in both regions. Unknown522 I've seen on the Kirby general discussion talking about Kirby being underrated as well. Mango was able to beat Lucky and Alex19's Fox using Kirby; that could be attributed to MU ignorance, but Mango's Kirby was very scrubby/basic and still won.

There are many many things you are omitting or misinformed about such as Kirby's ability to float and therefore wall you out with Bairs and Dairs off stage and he has the fastest jump squat along with Fox/Pikachu/Sheik/Samus. On FFers and even Marth/Peach Kirby can string together 4-6 FH double Bairs, and SHFFL Bair to U-tilt is a frame trap. Kirby's tilts are more useful than Zelda's Dsmash considering Dtilt allows you to stay completely crouched, his Utilt is god like, WD f-tilt and Dash cancel D-tilt are very useful (also D-tilt destroys pretty much any recovery). Swallocide canceling is a massive tool in Kirby's arsenal that is viable on a high level and something an opponent has to be aware of constantly to avoid. Zelda's hurtboxes are far more vulnerable, she's so much taller and slower, roll is far worse, her recovery is NOT better, her wave dash sucks in comparison, her grab range and grab delay sucks in comparison. I could go on and on.....it's probably kind of close but Kirby has an easier time against the top tiers except Ice Climbers since Zelda's Kicks and Dsmash make that FAR easier for her.

Not only that but go watch the tournament set of Triple R vs The Lake, Kirby wins. I'd strongly advise watching other Kirby videos - Taki, Cereal Rabbit (C. Rabbit), Triple R, Linkomac, Armada, King Kirby, Krazy Kirby Kid, Nizro, Hack. There's like 100+ Nizro vids only up on a Swedish hosting site (they are HQ 60fps), Leffen had posted them somewhere in the Kirby discussion thread.

As an example here's a pretty amazing play Cereal Rabbit made against a competent Fox:

It's supposed to start at 22:21

 

[EddyBearr]

People greatly underestimate Kirby's recovery with rising fair + good DI, alongside Kirby commanding some respect and some dynamicity with dair/swallow/uair and multiple jumps.

Kirby does way better against Falcon than any other low tier (starting with the Links), largely independent of stage. With that said, I do think Zelda is better than Kirby, and I think the more thorough history of results for Zelda aids that view.

 

[Link24a]

People greatly underestimate Kirby's recovery with rising fair + good DI

Edge guarding is practically free though

 

[Brinzy]

If you didn't want me to interpret it like that, then learn how to speak english better.

My English is fine. Commas don't end sentences. You could just admit that you misinterpreted it instead of being a smartass.

Marth, Falcon, and Sheik (probably) are better for Kirby.

Ok cool, so the other five characters, some which are more prevalent than those three, are anywhere from slightly to moderately better for Zelda.

... and how does this translate into Kirby having better matchups overall?

Both recoveries are horrible so it doesn't matter.

Zelda, stage dependent, can port to a platform or to the stage or ledge (if permitting). Zelda has actual options. Kirby does not. There are a few factors to determine whether a recovery is solid or not, and at least being able to mix up your recovery reliably and being able to actually make it back to the stage for a chance at living are a few of those things.

To say that "both recoveries are horrible so it doesn't matter" is both disingenuous and a bit annoying. You can't just pretend that Zelda having a legitimate advantage in an important part of Smash somehow "doesn't matter" just because it isn't great while acting like Kirby's tilts are god's gift to man even though they're still mediocre. Should I say they don't matter?

Given these points plus all the other ones you didn't actually attempt to refute, gonna say that Zelda is still a better character than Kirby.

Please, don't ever directly compare two moves again. Talk about how moves are useful and contribute to winning matches instead of wasting my time by saying "kirby's dash attack is useless" because everyone on the planet already knows that. Actually, there's the instant grab out of dash attack swag.

Did I not explain why Zelda's dash attack was strong or why her throws were good? Saying that Kirby has a bad dash attack means that he has one less good option for general situations. It's not a frame-by-frame, direct comparison between two moves - it's saying that Zelda's dash attack plays a decent part in her ground game because it's something you do out of a dash, which Kirby doesn't have.

If you read it as more than that, then I'm sorry, but that isn't my problem.

Well Leffen and Triple R both think Kirby is more viable than Zelda, and place him higher on their tier lists. Cereal Rabbit and Nizro do as well.

That's fair.

There are also plenty of good players who think otherwise.

Stuff about what Kirby can do.

Some of the stuff I omitted are things that make up a part of a larger thing I mentioned. For example, I'm not going to talk about WD f-tilt or anything specific, but rather I'll talk about his ground or neutral game depending. With that said, I did not consider everything that he can do, it's true. I also did not consider everything Zelda can do, I just named some general things.

Stuff about Kirby doing well in matches.

I never once said Kirby didn't have anyone doing decently on him, but if we're gonna go on that subject, I will say that Zelda's also shown relative success and has at least some form of a playerbase.

You linked good edgeguarding, and that's pretty cool and all, but I've done similar as Zelda to spacies and I'm atrocious at the game. It is honestly similar to a Sheik or Falco or Peach edgeguarding with projectiles. Yeah, it's nice, but what you're linking is just a Kirby using his tools to edgeguard. Would you be impressed if I linked you a clip of me edgeguarding with Din's -> lightning kick?

I'm not trying to talk down to this person or say what he did wasn't good. I'm simply trying to let you know that what he did was almost pure fundamentals that you'd do on any character.

If the point of linking those videos was to tell me that people can win matches as Kirby, then I can't say I care for it, because both of these characters have won multiple sets against decent players. If the point was to educate me, fair enough, I'll take it.

Edge guarding is practically free though

You're right, it is practically free. Zelda may have an underwhelming recovery, but it isn't free by any means. To say that "oh they're both bad so it doesn't matter" is just wrong.

 

[EddyBearr]

Edge guarding is practically free though

You shouldn't exclude the part of my quote pertaining to edgeguarding, then say "edgeguarding is free".

Kirby can definitely be edgeguarded, but I definitely think Zelda's recovery is just as easy to edgeguard. When you deny Zelda ledge while also not letting her up-B very close, then you can cover basically every Zelda option on reaction as long as you use a character that can cover options at least somewhat quickly.

 

[Comet7]

stuff

okay i misinterpreted that. run on sentence btw nice flames

i'm not exactly a compendium of kirby knowledge. you haven't really brought anything to suggest that the other top tiers are easier for zelda either.

they're both easy to edgeguard though. kirby does have options in specific situtations too, but i didn't bother to go over them since that didn't seem to be worth my time. i thought you would at least have some knowledge on how kirby recovers, but you don't appear to. kirby has a ton of jumps, albeit not impressive, that get the job done by putting him in positions where he can threaten with aerials or be risky to edgeguard. this won't happen in the majority of cases, but it can't be overlooked. zelda's recovery has her poof far, far away and gives her 30 frames of landing lag. if she recovers from far away, she is definitely going to be punished.

kirby's dash attack being the trash it is is no surprise to anybody. the real topic here is if kirby can pop people up in a way similar to how zelda's dash attack does. kirby's up tilt happens to be really good at that.

if their recoveries are both so bad that they should be edgeguarded most of the time in 2015's metagame, then it does not matter.

Zelda holds her own with ICs much better than most high tiers, but it's still clearly in IC's favour. Literally all they need is desync blizzard and ice blocks and Zelda loses. The reason Zelda might do well against ICs is because they don't respect her and are willing to play aggressive, but Zelda actually has great tools against ICs that aren't camping. Her fsmash on their double shield is sick, as are lightning kicks, similar to how good knees and FC fairs are. And fsmash connecting becomes a lot more useful than in other MUs because Nana will almost always get hit by the last hit. Nayru's Love is cute, but any ICs that can competently WD OoS will punish it with a grab which can mean death.

Yeah, I thought the ICs MU was pretty good before I played Fly, then I realised she can't actually do anything.

poor zelda. even if that's also awful for kirby, the two dreadful matchups negate each other. well, triple r said it's not that bad for kirby so yay for the stupid pink blob.

*goes to zelda forums and sees that an experienced zelda said the fox MU is supposed to be unwinnable*

more reading and fox vs kirby is completely unwinnable. zelda's is also awful from what i just read from credible posts but it seems slightly better.

 

[Wreckarooni]

I bring up the respectable players that think otherwise because you said it seems so ridiculous to put Kirby above Zelda. I realize others think the opposite, but I'm sure they don't think it's that obvious or "by a mile"

On recovery I'm really not sure what you guys are smoking....Zelda has one of the easiest recoveries to punish ever. She has two options sweep spot or slowly float to neutral then suffer 30 frames of land lag (the teleport has fixed distances as well). If you just grab ledge until confirmed she then only has the laggy float landing option and can easily be chased down and punished.

Any smart Kirby will recover high if possible or Fair/Bair in tricky ways back to leave out hitboxes on return (Zelda CANNOT actively attack on recovery). If you recover high you can swallow as you come down from lip, the threat of swallowcide will clear the edge few character have fast rangy enough options to cover and the inhale hitbox is no joke (it can override a lot of aerials and ground smashes). Or you can Dair as you come down and then Uair from below since it can stage poke upon ascension both hitboxes have ample coverage.

They both have equally bad recoveries, I don't think it's that black and white. And as for your question about Kirby footage and videos....just watch the people that I listed. You will learn much about Kirby's neutral, KO power, and capabilities. Also that clip I linked both kills actually started in neutral, it was 2 back to back kills on a Fox both were not only edge guarding (but it's true Kirby does excel once an opponent is offstage).

 

[ButterMeister]

I like the four tier setup that exists so far.

A = Tournament Viable
B = Sometimes Tournament Viable
C = Rarely Tournament Viable
D = Never Tournament Viable

But I think it can be further condensed into

A = Tournament Viable
B = Rarely Tournament Viable
D = Never Tournament Viable

 

[HeartShapedPuff]

Top Tier:

1.-
2.-
3.-
4.-

High Tier:

5.-
6.-
7.-
8.-
9.-

High Middle Tier:

10.-
11.-
12.-
13.-
14.-
15.-
16.-

Middle Tier:

17.-
18.-
19.-
20.-
21.-
22.-

Low/Bottom Tier:

23.-
24.-
25.-
26.-

 

[Elin]

Shouldn't this be pinned?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Tomorrow is the last day to vote! You guys should also remind your favorite players on twitter

 

[Ovenn]

Tier list stuff

I think you dropped these

 

[Dire Creeper]

I've been looking at some major tournament results. Here are some points that could be taken into a little account:

• The only non-top 8 characters that made it into CEO 2015's Top 16 were Samus and Luigi. Eikelmann got into Top 32.
• At B.E.A.S.T 5, SchlimmShady (Mario), Eagle (Doc), and VilNess (Luigi) made it into Top 32.
• At Press Start, A Rookie (Mario) got 17th.
• At "I'm Not Yelling!", HugS got 13th with Samus.
• At Paragon 2015, Plup got 5th, HugS got 13th, and Blea Gelo and Eikelmann got 17th.
• At Apex 2015, aMSa got 5th (this should already be noteworthy).

These shouldn't be anything too game-changing, but I feel these results should be noted.

 

[Brinzy]

Fox
Falco
Sheik
Marth

Peach
Puff
Falcon
ICs

Pika
Samus
Ganon
Luigi

Yoshi
Doc
Mario

Young Link
DK
GnW
Link

Roy
Zelda
Pichu

Mewtwo
Ness
Kirby
Bowser

The breaks are really just how much of a difference there is between the two adjacent characters. While I believe there are some characters with some untapped potential or really solid qualities that may get overlooked (Falcon, YL, Pichu), I also feel some characters are grossly overrated and are really down to the player (Yoshi, Doc) - and my list also factors in tourney performance. If it were pure potential, I would have Falcon over Peach, as an example.

Link and YL have a lot of similarities, but I'm of the opinion that a lot of what separates YL from Link is far more important in this game. All the strong characters are very mobile and speedy, or in the case of Peach are decently mobile with unique, strong qualities elsewhere. Being light sucks when it comes to trying to survive a Fox Usmash, but to be honest I don't think Link dying a bit later to this really matters when he's just worse overall IMO.

I feel GnW is pretty usable. His shield is bad, and he's also light, but he has some pretty godly abilities that I would argue give him a solid neutral and easy opportunities to gimp. Nothing special, but he's definitely a cut above those below him.

I think Pikachu has a lot more potential than the characters he's paired with, but those other three have solid results and rep.

Anyway, yay opinions.

 

[Ovenn]

My weirdo tier list.

Top Tiers:

1. - ech, you know the drill(shine), every matchup is even or better for him and everyone plays him.

2. - Extremely close with Marth. I firmly believe that Falco is even with Fox, which is a huge point in his favor. I think that he's also 50/50 or better with everyone below him except Peach and maybe Marth. With PPMD's Falco showing signs of slippage I believe that the best Falcos are now Mango and Westballz.

3. - Struggles a little with fox, might beat falco, even, or slim advantage with peach. Has oddly close matchups with some other characters; Falcon, Yoshi, Link. He also might lose to pikachu? (not much data). With the king of the mews slipping I think the clear best Marths are PPMD and PewPewU (not going to be confusing at all... Kevin.)

4. - Close with sheik, but ultimately I believe that peach has better matchups against the top - high tiers. Has a bad matchup with fox, but I don't believe it to be any worse than sheik's. Firmly beats falco, not just with armada-mango, but with MacD also forcing Westballz off Falco multiple times. Even or better with every other character except Jigglypuff, and maybe Marth. Armada is still the best peach with MacD making steady improvements in second.

5. - I feel that sheik is overrated on a lot of lists, she does well against some high tiers, and mid or low tier characters, but has no winning matchups against top tiers. Imo she loses solidly to fox, goes even or slightly worse against Falco/Marth, and is even with Peach and Puff. She also loses slightly to Ice Climbers (and maybe Yoshi?). Best in the world are Shroomed and Plup, with KK & Kira somewhere in behind. There's always room for the return of the king however.

6. - The character that will suffer the most in the coming 20XX, loses harshly to fox, and has only Peach downright beat among the top tiers. Hungrybox might have to start looking at a secondary...

High Tiers

7. - Another controversial pick, I think that Pikachu has earned this spot though. Loses an unknown amount to Peach, and solidly to Sheik, but has not too bad losing matchups with the other top tiers. Also loses to Ice Climbers. Wallgreens Drake 4 lyfe.

8. - This character could be considered top tier if it didn't get so destroyed by Peach, losing decently to fox isn't a plus either. Winning slightly against sheik is the one saving grace of this character. Pick Icies if you like playing bracket roulette. Fly Amanita, Dizzkidboogie, Nintendude, and a semi-retired wobbles keep this character afloat.

9. - This placement can change if 20XX finds a rival in 20GX, however I am yet to be convinced. The Captain's only true winning matchup against higher placed characters is Ice Climbers. I don't think that he wins the matchup against peach, or if he does, it's very slight. Armada has trounced every Falcon since SilentSpectre, and recently MacD has taken multiple sets off of S2J. Watch for: S2J, the 20GX crew, and n0ne.

10. - Close matchups against the space animals make this placement for samus, she loses hard to most floaties who can weave around her projectiles. Previously Plup made this character viable, but HugS has been picking up the slack in his absence.

High-Mid Tiers

11. - Has oddly close matchups with many top tiers, including marth and sheik. Not very much data yet, as unlike Axe, aMSa hasn't spent an extended time in the US playing at tournaments. Seems to lose solidly to peach.

12. - Can do well against space animals with the right reads, terrible recovery is not exploited by opponents enough. Abate, Eddie Mexico, and Vudujin are the luigi's to watch.

13. - With Shroomed gone, only a ghost of this character's success remains.

14. - Slow as balls, but hits like a truck. Somehow has a worse recovery than Captain Falcon. Bizzaro Flame, Kage, and Eikelman are the main men for this character.

Low Mid Tiers
15. - Matchups between Young Link and some floaties such as Peach, Jiggs, and Icies can be close, but I ultimately think that Young Link loses all of them. Gets destroyed by fox. A secondary for characters that lose to the floaties listed above.
16. - Some slight changes make this character much less viable than his PHD counterpart..
17. - Even with Marth but that's pretty much it...
18. - Bad shield coverage makes it hard for him to defend himself, but at least he can L-Cancel all his aerials.

Low/Bottom Tiers
19. - Bad shield AND he can't L-Cancel all his aerials.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[Shaboobie]

Not too well versed with Melee but I think I got a decent list.

S:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
A:
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
B:
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
C:
19.
20.
21.
22.
F:
23.
24.
25.
26.

 

[Shadow Light Master]

So you think that someone who sits around and just watches streams has an opinion and understanding of the game that is equal to someone who actively plays vs. high/top level players and ACTUALLY goes to events and competes? Many people in the community now are stream monsters who have very little perspective on how this game actually works

I don't think he said it's equal, just that there's nothing wrong with asking. And I agree. Even if it's an absurd placement, why not ask? You never know what you might learn. If their answer is stupid, just ignore it. No harm done.

 

[dahuterschuter]

r8 and h8, especially on divisions because I tried to stick with established tier divisions but I think there there actually should probably be a division between maybe an A and an A+ tier and a B and a B+ and an SS but didn't want to get really complicated but went for it anyway. But I also don't think SS is really the best description of the top tier because it implies super dominance which isn't really right, but I didn't feel like shifting everyone down a tier to put the S tiers here into A+ was right either.

SS

S

A+

A

B

F

 

[TheBigChew]

What ****ing low tiers does Marth not dominate?

Link, the mu is almost even

 

[Wreckarooni]

^ Yep pretty much, Link is a pain in the butt for Marth.

Also until you are familiar with the MU, Kirby is surprisingly almost even as well. Marth has superior range and speed but he can't handle two things that throw off his game when facing Kirby - Good roll and spot dodge to very fast rangy tilts/Dsmash and lowest crouch in the game (plus d-tilt or drop inv. Bair destroys Marth's recovery)

 

[Chinaux]

S
1. Falco
2. Fox
3. Marth
4. Shiek
A
5. Jigglypuff
6. Peach
7. Ice Climbers
8. Falcon
9. Dr. Mario
B
10. Pikachu
11. Samus
12. Luigi
13. Ganondorf
14. Mario
C
15. Young Link
16. Link
17. DK
18. Yoshi
D
19. Zelda
20. Roy
21. Mewtwo
22. G&W
F
23. Ness
24. Pichu
25. Bowser
26. Kirby

S+ Tier:
1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
A Tier
6:
7:
B Tier:
8:
9:
10:
11:
C Tier
12:
13:
D Tier:
14:
15:
16:
17:
18:
E Tier:
19:
20:
21:
22:
F Tier:
23:
24:
25:
26:

I'm not the most experienced player, but I think I'm knowledgeable enough to have an opinion.

not knowledgeable to know yoshi isn't b tier

 

[Comet7]

How do you even place yoshi that low after aMSa?

 

[Chinaux]

How do you even place yoshi that low after aMSa?

Because nobody else is known to play a good yoshi. That's like saying "How do you place bowser so low? DJ Nintendo rocks!"

 

[Comet7]

Because nobody else is known to play a good yoshi. That's like saying "How do you place bowser so low? DJ Nintendo rocks!"

That's understandable, but Yoshi is different. He has an absurd tech skill curve and just needed a player capable of mastering him to expose him. Stuff like parrying, egg stalls on the ledge (1 frame of vulnerability if frame perfect), a completely invincible ledge stall, good mobility, great juggling capability, etc set him apart from the other low tiers from the previous list.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Because nobody else is known to play a good yoshi. That's like saying "How do you place bowser so low? DJ Nintendo rocks!"

Bruh

 

[Chinaux]

Bruh

V3ctorman isn't even a top player, though.

 

[HeartShapedPuff]

I think you dropped these

Thanks!

I knew i forgot some characters, but I couldn't remember which characters.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

V3ctorman isn't even a top player, though.

Made top 32 at a national long before anyone heard of aMSa. Also, Leffen started as a Yoshi player, or at least had him as a secondary for a while.

 

[futilejoyrider]

SSS+++ Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik

S Tier
5. Peach
6. Jigglypuff
7. Captain Falcon

A Tier
8. Ice Climbers
9. Pikachu
10. Samus
11. Yoshi

B- Tier
12. Doc
13. Ganondorf
14. Luigi
15. Mario
16. Young Link


E Tier
17. Link
18. DK
19. G&W
20. Mewtwo


FF Tier
21. Roy
22. Zelda
23. Pichu
24. Bowser
25. Ness
26. Kirby

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

Why must people consistently underrate Roy. Yes, he is inferior to Marth, but he does have better matchups than characters like G&W for sure.

 

[Wreckarooni]

Why must people consistently underrate Roy. Yes, he is inferior to Marth, but he does have better matchups than characters like G&W for sure.

I don't think this is true. It's seems rather obvious to put G&W above Roy, hits WAY harder in the Air (almost as hard on the ground), more set ups, combos, KO set ups, throw set ups, and has less trouble with floaties. He also has a projectile that can cut off many approaches and a better recovery

Have you played G&W before? I've played both and it seems so much harder for Roy, Roy is still a fun character but in the Meta today he has a very tough time.

 

[ConquerorReborn]

SS:1.Ganondorf




No one else matters #20DX

 

[MasterIcarus7 (SHADE)]

I don't think this is true. It's seems rather obvious to put G&W above Roy, hits WAY harder in the Air (almost as hard on the ground), more set ups, combos, KO set ups, throw set ups, and has less trouble with floaties. He also has a projectile that can cut off many approaches and a better recovery

Have you played G&W before? I've played both and it seems so much harder for Roy, Roy is still a fun character but in the Meta today he has a very tough time.

I constantly win net play matches against Golds on Anther's with Roy, I think the problem is that people try to use a similar play style to Marth with him, which is what you don't do