2013 Community Tier List

[Varist]

now that i have a few tournament wins under my belt it's time to drop the knowledge on the real tier list


this was developed after heavy thought and lots of drug usage and little to no discussion with peers because i'm the only one who actually understands this stupid hard game

Fox is the best, Falco is easier but not the best
Shiek is better for certain matchups but Marth is better overall and definitely better against spacies, not even debatable
Peach is better than jigglypuff lmfao that's still the most embarassing thing on this list. So many bad peaches get artificial victories and we don't admit it, and we even have 1 amazing peach showing how broken some of her options are and people don't want to take ****ing jigglypuff down a peg. I think it's posterity and some psychosis where people don't want to admit they're wrong because jiggs is not better than peach.
ICs are better than falcon, but no one wants to admit that, not even me, honestly it hurts to say because I want falcon to be good but hes just not that good and he's so close to being better than ICs too. this is the only one i've heard people argue against me on and I totally get where they're coming from, it feels like an on point falcon can go even with the high tiers and you see **** like ICs just getting abused but right now in 2015 ICs are just really easy to win with and Falcon is really hard to win with, his tech is hard, and he has to react and read. ICs doesn't need tech tbh they just have to react, camp smart, poke at smart angles, play with shield DI and force grabs and it's just kind of an uphill battle for falcon all the time, even when he's winning, and he totally can too.

Fox, Falco < fox will continue to create distance as more foxes master shine OOS waveshine in all matchups and all his other garbage
Marth, Shiek < closest tie
Peach, Jiggs < the more you learn the jiggs matchup the easier she gets to deal with, Peach is a more fleshed out character with an actual moveset, better hitboxes, more reliable punishes.
ICs, Falcon < ICs can cheese, falcon gets cheesed, you have to be an on point ****ing falcon to win against the same calibur of opponent that an ICs can just cheese in a wobbling-on tournament. Falcon has more potential but ICs are just straight up easier and kind of broke against the majority of players, especially the dumbest ones who dash dance into a blizzard grab

that's the tier list, our current one is still in denial over jiggs and falcon mainly, accept the changing reality and new information so we can get this thing looking right

 

[the muted smasher]

My biggest thing against ics over falcon is the dd de-synces really are overrated. Even vs people who don't have a reliable projectile there are still a lot of ways to get around it and wreak ics hard. Luigi has sdi nair, Inv wd f-tilt back on stage and you can mess with their rythem or get in with really tight spacing. Just hard and people aren't really exploring the counter meta enough.

Also ics still don't wreak anyone hard enough other than puff and You really over rate them.

However they are stupid where if You drop a punishment You can often follow up anyhow.

Current meta is ics> falcon which kind of is Your reason for peach> puff.

But i think space animals are strong right now so going 40-60 is better than 30-70 but better overall spread. Why falcon is sucking

 

[G3TL05T]

Edited my post to remove Pikachu (since my justification for him was bs and I just don't think he's viable)
Edited my section on Falco, since you guys explained that his placement did not reflect my MU analysis.

I'm nowhere near pro player skill, but I'll post my tier list opinion anyway, with my reasoning. All criticism welcome of course.

Also, when I say "viable" I mean that the character has the potential to win a national against the best of the best.

S Tier: National Tournament viable with few bad matchups that can be overcome
1. Fox - Only potentially bad matchups I see are Marth and Falco. By "potentially bad" I mean that some people claim that Marth beats Fox and that Falco (with appropriate lasers) can beat Fox. Either way, Fox either wins most matchups or loses by a very small margin.

2. Marth - Overall best matchups against the Spacies, sometimes known as the Space Animal Slayer, with his only truly bad matchup against Sheik. It seems that over the years people feel that Marth vs Sheik is no longer 7-3 in Sheik's favor and closer to 6-4. From what I've seen, and from what other people say, the matchup against Jigglypuff isn't as bad as it previously seemed. In this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80QHoWe2xQY
We see in Game 3 that Marth can give Jiggs problems in the air with his longer range, and in Game 4, M2K shows that Marth can kill Jiggs pretty quickly too.
Other than that, it seems that Marth beats just about every other character in the game, whether by a lot or a little.

3. Falco - Falco has overall great matchups. Whether he wins or loses against Fox, I don't know and it may very well be stage dependent, but it's a close MU. I think Marth beats him by a decent enough amount to put the MU against Falco, but many people will disagree with me here. Falco still beats Sheik in my view, but not by all that much, and when he's off stage... Some claim that ICs beat Falco and that he doesn't deal with Jiggs as well as Fox, plus HBox's results against PPMD at Evo show that the matchup may go either way, considering that these are two top players with plenty of experience against the opposing matchup. Of course results aren't everything, but they certainly matter. I'm also in agreement with the community that Falco has a hard MU against Peach, as she can wall him off so well.

4. Jigglypuff - M2K and Hax think she's amazing, yet HBox, the best Jiggs player to pick up a GC controller, says she's overrated. She seems like such a volatile character, able to put Foxes to rest so quickly, yet die to powerful smashes and aerials just as fast.
It seems like the Fox matchup is against her, but I have no idea by how much. Some say it's 55-45, others say 6-4, some even say 7-3. When it comes to Falco though, I feel it's much more even, especially after HBox proved at Evo that he could deal with a top Falco like PPMD.
The Marth matchup is one that many Marths used to dread, however after seeing people like The Moon play against HBox, as well as M2K in the video I listed above, it's clear that Marth has tools against Jiggs as well. I still feel like Jiggs has a slight advantage, but seeing the M2K vs HBox set, I think M2K could play better next time and go for less grabs and easily predictable and crouch cancellable attacks (like that one dash attack on Game 4 )
Jiggs also beats Sheik, and I still think she has the edge on Peach. After all, Armada, the greatest Peach in the world who edgeguards Spacies in the most demoralizing ways, switched to Young Link just to deal with HBox.
Jiggs vs ICs... yeah I don't know, but Wobbles got HBox in Evo 2013 if that means anything.

A+ Tier: Barely Tournament Viable, but must deal with several harder matchups
5-6. Sheik - Years ago considered the best character in Melee and it's easy to see why. People just didn't have the same tech skill at the time, and Sheik doesn't require it like Fox or Falco. She's fast, quick aerials, great forward air, great grab game - all so far like Marth - but with the added advantage of a projectile.
In the end though, she has bad matchups against Fox and Falco (although neither of these are particularly bad matchups), and Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers.

5-6. Peach - With Peach's popularity right now, and with Armada currently ranked as the second best player after Mango, it's pretty clear that Peach has potential. It's hard for me to decided whether she belongs above or below Sheik. To me at least it seems that although both characters lose to Spacies, Sheik has the tools to perform slightly better against them (Although many people feel that Peach deals with them better than Sheik). While Peach loses to Marth, Sheik beats him harder than any other character. Sheik also beats Peach head-to-head. Peach on the other hand, deals better with Jigglypuff (although it seems that Jiggs still has the edge on both of the princesses) and of course destroys ICs.

I feel like in the end Sheik is theoretically better, but Armada is just so strong right now, which I believe is influencing many people to place Peach above Sheik. I think part of it is that there aren't really any good Marths able to defeat Armada, and since all of his brothers play Sheik, not even M2K will beat him in that matchup, despite Sheik having the advantage. This is a situation where player skill is really getting in the way, since Armada is just such a strong player right now. Sure, Mango is currently considered the best player, however, since he plays Fox and Falco, who for a long time have been considered the top 2 characters, it's not as much a problem determining placement.

A Tier: Potentially viable at a national if the player does not have to face their harder counters
7. ICs - Probably Melee's most unique character, and the only one that can charge a forward smash and up smash at the same time!
I always liked these guys, and I think they do a pretty decent job with Fox. Not that they win or anything, but they do pretty well considering he's Fox.
Against Falco, I think they do even better, some go as far as saying that they win by a little, and I think tournaments show that ICs have a lot of useful tools for Falco.
It really doesn't seem like ICs do too well against Marth, since his range, quick, long grabs, tilts, and movement allow him to safely separate the Popo and Nana.
Jigglypuff... don't know, we'll just have to see what Fly Amanita has to say about it in 2015.
Sheik is actually a good matchup for ICs.
Peach is usually considered the ICs worst matchup by far, some say 8-2 but others say it's not quite so bad. Fly performed impressively against Armada at Evo 2014, but in the end, Armada showed Peach can easily separate the two climbers and Forward Air Nana off the stage like no one else.

These are the only 7 characters I consider viable for a national, and I'm not too sure about ICs at the end, due to having several hard matchups to deal with along with pretty crippling Marth and Peach MUs, but their top competitive players have shown promise.

 

[Bones0]

S Tier: Tournament viable with few bad matchups that will be harder to overcome
2. Falco - Falco has overall great matchups. Whether he wins or loses against Fox, I don't know and it may very well be stage dependent, but it's a close MU. Same against Marth, but I think Marth beats him. Some claim that ICs beat Falco and that he doesn't deal with Jiggs as well as Fox, plus HBox's results against PPMD at Evo show that the matchup may go either way, considering that these are two top players with plenty of experience against the opposing matchup. Of course results aren't everything, but considering these are the two best of these characters, they certainly matter.

I'm confused by the clear discrepancy between your mu values and where you ranked Falco. From what you've said, it sounds like he loses to Marth and ICs, is even or worse with Fox and Puff, and has an advantage over Sheik and Pikachu (which is almost meaningless in today's meta). The only top 8 char you left out was Peach, who I think is widely regarded as one of Falco's harder mus, and then Falcon who isn't listed, but I'm assuming you consider it as Falco's favor.

So essentially, we have a character with 2 good mus, 2 iffy ones, and 3 bad ones. How does this add up to Falco not only being ranked second, but in his own tier above all 3 characters he loses to? It seems impossible if you compare him to Marth who you believe only struggles with Sheik and Puff and has solid wins over everyone else, including the two most popular characters... I'm just wondering where the disconnect is because you seem to have put a lot of thought into each mu, but then it's like you totally abandoned that when making the actual ranking.

 

[knightpraetor]

Thanks for your input. I'm surprised you think people have to play more on point against spacies than as spacies themselves. Most people would say the difficulty factor of using Fox and Falco is their main drawback because it's difficult to maintain consistency. I see tons more mistakes from spacies than floaties, and they tend to get punished way harder by any one mistake. That being said, it's obviously still Melee no matter what, so every character has situations that require insane precision.

it's not that you see tons more mistakes from spacies than floaties, it's that you can't recognize mistakes from floaties because you don't know what peach/jiggs are even trying to do. It's a lot easier to tell what tech skill mistakes are costing someone when the missed input gets the spacey crouch cancel dsmashed.

But what about a jump that is 3 frames late or a dash back that was 2 frames late but resulted in the peach getting comboed for a stock. Peach dashes in to cover the roll but gets shined. Should it have worked? are poor reactions and choices that would have worked if they had been a frame earlier or positioned 2mm to the side still considered tech skill errors? if so then i have about 200 tech skill errors a match. But if you are only counting missed L cancels and combos then the # gets a lot lower.

i mained marth for 2 years, but no one ever talked about marth players being off point even when the marth grab clearly overlapped the spacey spotdodge so that the marth was shineable after the spotdodge. marth should be spacing such that spotdodge can't do jack ****. But that is never considered "tech skill" for some reason.

i would say that losing one stock to misspaced grab is playing awful. and i would probably go practice in friendlies for another hour before i'd feel comfortable playing any decent falcos again. However, good luck finding a commentary video where the commentator mentions the ****ty marth tech skill that lets the falco get a free combo for 50% to begin with.

when i watch a marth video i always notice if the marth tried to pivot grab and gets hit by running shine because he accidentally ran back into the fox even though he planned to do it at the right spot. However, after the match all you hear is fox players talking about how running shine beats marth and don't even seem to realize that they got out with their life only because the marth player flubbed the turn around JC grab timing.

Reality is people rarely recognize the opponents errors during the match. Certainly if the opponent phantasms off stage I notice, but if the opponent is late on something, I am too busy thinking about the next move to worry about why the opponent is getting comboed. oftentimes it is not even possible just using your eyes to even see the tech skill error. if it's on the order of frames, you would have to slow down the video to notice. I remember that I once thought m2k played fine vs colbol in a video of marth vs fox that I was watching, but that colbol just played well so it was really close. Certainly that is what the audience believed based on the commentary to the video.

However, when i watched the video at 1/4 speed I suddenly realized that m2k was flubbing tech skill on marth almost 3 times every 10 sec, so stuff that should have resulted in colbol dying for free, resulted in colbol getting up 3 stocks. In the end, m2k wrecked colbol after warming up anyway, but my point is just that it is difficult to know what tech skill errors are occurring unless you

A. know the opponent's char very very well, as in you have at least 1000 hrs of practice on that character.
B. Slow down the video so that you can see everything that is happening.
C. know what the player is trying to do.

the 3rd one of course is impossible to know, but the others are the reasons why only a player who mains the same char is likely to even really know what exchanges were won from flubs and which were legit. And honestly even though I spent 5 hrs critiquing armada's 5min match vs haxx, I still know a hell of a lot more about the mistakes armada made than the one's hax made.


I beat sypher's falcon last Shell shocked, but he suicided twice. I could tell he was really disappointed to end the 2nd match with a suicide. However, he didn't even remember that i SDed once.

on the first stock, I missed my jump timing after being knocked away to touch down on my feet and ended up just standing still. This mistake cost me 70%. But from his perspective, he just got a grab and played well. on a side note, this is why you don't courtesy SD if your opponent suicides. suicides are a function of skill.

But anyway, my main point is that a person watching the video would just see me sitting still a few more frames than i should have been, and would not think of anything having been caused by a technical error. but it was actually a technical error that had an enormous impact on the course of the game.

 

[ItsChon]

I'm nowhere near pro player skill, but I'll post my tier list opinion anyway, with my reasoning. All criticism welcome of course.

Also, when I say "viable" I mean that the character has the potential to win a national against the best of the best.

SS Tier: Tournament viable with few bad matchups if any that can be overcome
1. Fox - Only potentially bad matchups I see are Marth and Falco. By "potentially bad" I mean that some people claim that Marth beats Fox and Falco, with appropriate lasers, can beat Fox. Either way, Fox either wins matchups or loses by a very small margin.

No arguments here, though I believe Fox is in the same tier as Falco, Marth, and Shiek.

S Tier: Tournament viable with few bad matchups that will be harder to overcome
2. Falco - Falco has overall great matchups. Whether he wins or loses against Fox, I don't know and it may very well be stage dependent, but it's a close MU. Same against Marth, but I think Marth beats him. Some claim that ICs beat Falco and that he doesn't deal with Jiggs as well as Fox, plus HBox's results against PPMD at Evo show that the matchup may go either way, considering that these are two top players with plenty of experience against the opposing matchup. Of course results aren't everything, but considering these are the two best of these characters, they certainly matter.

You say he's even with Fox, but Marth beats him. You later go to say Marth beats or goes even with Fox. Wouldn't this make Falco third? This isn't even taking into account his poor/even match ups (according to you) against the IC's, Jiggly, and Sheik. I agree that Falco is second, but I think your reasoning behind why he's second is faulty.

3. Marth - Overall best matchups against the Spacies, sometimes known as the Space Animal Slayer, with his only truly bad matchup against Sheik. It seems that over the years people feel that Marth vs Sheik is no longer 7-3 in Sheik's favor and closer to 6-4. From what I've seen, and from what other people say, the matchup against Jigglypuff isn't as bad as it previously seemed. In this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80QHoWe2xQY
We see in Game 3 that Marth can give Jiggs problems in the air with his longer range, and in Game 4, M2K shows that Marth can kill Jiggs pretty quickly too.
Other than that, it seems that Marth beats just about every other character in the game, whether by a lot or a little.

I agree. Marths match up against Shiek is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. It's not even close to as bad people thought it was a few years ago. It's a low 6:4 in Shieks favor as oppose to a 7:3. Despite this, I believe Marth still edges out Sheik due to his good match ups against the Spacies and Peach, as well as a fairly even match up against Jiggs.

4. Jigglypuff - M2K and Hax think she's amazing, yet HBox, the best Jiggs player to pick up a GC controller, says she's overrated. She seems like such a volatile character, able to put Foxes to rest so quickly, yet die to powerful smashes and aerials just as fast.
It seems like the Fox matchup is against her, but I have no idea by how much. Some say it's 55-45, others say 6-4, some even say 7-3. When it comes to Falco though, I feel it's much more even, especially after HBox proved at Evo that he could deal with a top Falco like PPMD.
The Marth matchup is one that many Marths used to dread, however after seeing people like The Moon play against HBox, as well as M2K in the video I listed above, it's clear that Marth has tools against Jiggs as well. I still feel like Jiggs has a slight advantage, but seeing the M2K vs HBox set, I think M2K could play better next time and go for less grabs and easily predictable and crouch cancellable attacks (like that one dash attack on Game 4 )
Jiggs also beats Sheik, and I still think she has the edge on Peach. After all, Armada, the greatest Peach in the world who edgeguards Spacies in the most demoralizing ways, switched to Young Link just to deal with HBox.
Jiggs vs ICs... yeah I don't know, but Wobbles got HBox in Evo 2013 if that means anything.

This...this.....actually makes sense. I need to reevaluate a few things about my life right now.

A+ Tier: Barely Tournament Viable, but must deal with several harder matchups
5-6. Sheik - Years ago considered the best character in Melee and it's easy to see why. People just didn't have the same tech skill at the time, and Sheik doesn't require it like Fox or Falco. She's fast, quick aerials, great forward air, great grab game - all so far like Marth - but with the added advantage of a projectile.
In the end though, she has bad matchups against Fox and Falco (although neither of these are particularly bad matchups), and Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers.

No arguments.

5-6. Peach - With Peach's popularity right now, and with Armada currently ranked as the second best player after Mango, it's pretty clear that Peach has potential. It's hard for me to decided whether she belongs above or below Sheik. To me at least it seems that although both characters lose to Spacies, Sheik has the tools to perform slightly better against them (Although many people feel that Peach deals with them better than Sheik). While Peach loses to Marth, Sheik beats him harder than any other character. Sheik also beats Peach head-to-head. Peach on the other hand, deals better with Jigglypuff (although it seems that Jiggs still has the edge on both of the princesses) and of course destroys ICs.

I feel like in the end Sheik is theoretically better, but Armada is just so strong right now, which I believe is influencing many people to place Peach above Sheik. I think part of it is that there aren't really any good Marths able to defeat Armada, and since all of his brothers play Sheik, not even M2K will beat him in that matchup, despite Sheik having the advantage. This is a situation where player skill is really getting in the way, since Armada is just such a strong player right now. Sure, Mango is currently considered the best player, however, since he plays Fox and Falco, who for a long time have been considered the top 2 characters, it's not as much a problem determining placement.

Again, no arguments. Although Sheik is better imo.

A Tier: Potentially viable at a national if the player does not have to face their harder counters
7. ICs - Probably Melee's most unique character, and the only one that can charge a forward smash and up smash at the same time!
I always liked these guys, and I think they do a pretty decent job with Fox. Not that they win or anything, but they do pretty well considering he's Fox.
Against Falco, I think they do even better, some go as far as saying that they win by a little, and I think tournaments show that ICs have a lot of useful tools for Falco.
It really doesn't seem like ICs do too well against Marth, since his range, quick, long grabs, tilts, and movement allow him to safely separate the Popo and Nana.
Jigglypuff... don't know, we'll just have to see what Fly Amanita has to say about it in 2015.
Sheik is actually a good matchup for ICs.
Peach is usually considered the ICs worst matchup by far, some say 8-2 but others say it's not quite so bad. Fly performed impressively against Armada at Evo 2014, but in the end, Armada showed Peach can easily separate the two climbers and Forward Air Nana off the stage like no one else.

No Arguments.

8. Pikachu - Sometimes referred to as a mini Fox for his speed, quick aerials and attacks, powerful up smash (actually more powerful than Foxes when not charged, and only a single frame slower if I recall correctly) and excellent gimping potential with his up air in place of Foxes shine. Yeah, Axe, you've done awesome this year!
I'm not going to make any claim that Pikachu beats Fox, just because his neutral game is lacking, but off stage, with his long and quick recovery and excellent edgeguarding potential, he can beat Fox. I feel that it's kind of like with Sheik. You may not have the neutral game advantage (although Sheik will do a lot better against Fox than Pikachu will obviously), but at the edge, you have a clear advantage. And let's remember, Fox is no slouch at the edge.
Against Falco, similar to Fox in losing neutral game but winning at edge. Of course neutral game determines a lot, so still a bad matchup.
Against Marth, I really don't think Pikachu has too much chance. Yeah, longer recovery, but Marth has so much range on him. It's longest non-tether grab in the game vs. the shortest. Similar movement speed, but Marth has more wavedash distance to work with, and his up tilt is one of the best anti-aerials in the game if Pikachu decides to hop around too much. Admittedly, there haven't been too many high level Marth vs. Pikachu games, since M2K picks Sheik and PPMD picks Falco.
Against Sheik... many people consider this a hard counter, since Sheik can chaingrab Pikachu and edguguard him better than most. Of course, let's not forget that Axe has taken games off M2K's Sheik, so Sheik doesn't have an invincible matchup, it's just strongly in her favor.
Against Jigglypuff... I really don't know. Pikachu will be harder for Jiggs to edgeguard than Fox, and Pikachu's up smash will kill even sooner. Plus, his neutral techs will be harder than most characters for Jiggs to deal with. Whoever wins, I don't see it as winning this matchup by much.
Against Peach... Yeah again I don't really have anything to comment here. Pikachu won't be edgeguarded in the demoralizing way Armada edgeguards Foxes, but I'm not sure how good he is against Peach in the neutral game.

Some pros Pikachu has as a character:
- One of the best recoveries in the game, very long, and very fast. Can also be used for a quick edgehog
- Quick and powerful up smash to rival Fox
- Excellent Nair
- Excellent Up Air for gimps, and comboing
- Tons of speed
- Amazing neutral tech
- He's Pikachu


These are the only 8 characters I consider viable for a national, and I'm not too sure about the last two due to having several hard matchups to deal with, but their top competitive players have shown promise.

Just no, just no. This....this makes no sense. I can't tell whether you're trolling or not. Not even going to list all the reasons this is not true because it's just ridiculous.

 

[EddyBearr]

I threw away most of my data for this and I can't double-check it, but in terms of replicated success, here's a list based on character usage, slightly weighed for top 40 and top 20 respectively, as an average of both the 2013 and 2014 MIOM lists.

1: Fox
2: Falco
3: Marth
4: Peach
5: Sheik
6: ICs
7: Samus
8: Falcon
9: Jigglypuff
9: Luigi
11: Ganondorf
11: Pikachu
13: Dr. Mario
14: Young Link
15: Yoshi
16: Link
Mario doesn't make an appearance, no one below Link really makes an appearance. Mewtwo and Bowser are ignored for Taj DJNintendo as clear "just having fun" characters.

Here are top 32, top 8, top 4, 2nds, and 1sts appearances at "Super nationals (400+) in the last 2 years. Multi-main is .5 to each character unless they're clearly dedicated to one
#: [Character] [(TOP32; TOP8; TOP4; 2NDs; 1STs)]
1: Fox (52.5; 13.5; 6.5; 0.5; 2.5)
2: Falco (22; 6; 4.5; 0.5; 2)
3: Marth (22; 4.5; 4; 1.5; 0.5)
4: Peach (15; 5; 5; 1; 1)
5: Sheik (21.5; 6; 2; 1; 0)
6: Jiggs (10; 6; 2; 1; 0)
7: ICs (11; 2; 1; 1; 0)
8: Falcon (14; 1; 0; 0; 0)
9: Pikachu (5.5; 2; 0; 0; 0)
10: Samus (8; 0; 0; 0; 0)
11: Luigi (5; 0; 0; 0; 0)
12: Doc (4; 2; 0; 0; 0)
13: Y.Link (2; 1.5; 1; 0.5; 0.5)
14: Yoshi (4; 0; 0; 0; 0)
15: Ganondorf (2; 0; 0; 0; 0)

-In this list, Peach, Jiggs, and ICs are "kinda" over-represented (read: unreplicated) due to Armada, Hbox, and Wobbles respectively, but do have other representatives.
-Pikachu, Doc, Yoshi, and Ganondorf are all quite over-represented (read: unreplicated) as only Axe, Shroomed, aMSa, and Kage did anything with these respectively.
-Young Link only saw use as a counterpick character by Armada and Axe.

If I were personally to rate the results, then:
1: Fox
2: Falco
3: Marth (better replicated than Peach at top-level)
4: Peach
5: Sheik
6: Jiggs
7: ICs
8: Falcon (at least 4 saw success with Falcon)
9: Samus (3 or 4 people saw success with Samus)
10: Luigi (3 players saw success with Luigi)
11: Pikachu (only Axe, but he got to top 8 twice)
12: Doc (only Shroomed, but he got to top 8 twice)
13: Yoshi (only aMSa but he made 4 appearances)
14: Ganondorf (only Kage but he made 2 appearances)
15: Young Link (no success as a main, but a use as a counterpick)

 

[ItsChon]

Ganondorf (only Kage

WHAT! You're talking about Gannon and you didn't even MENTION Bizzaro Flame.

 

[EddyBearr]

WHAT! You're talking about Gannon and you didn't even MENTION Bizzaro Flame.

Top 32 at mega nationals. Bizz hasn't done this. Pikachad is more noteworthy than Bizz for their respective characters, but he also didn't top 32 any mega nationals.

 

[ItsChon]

Top 32 at mega nationals. Bizz hasn't done this. Pikachad is more noteworthy than Bizz for their respective characters, but he also didn't top 32 any mega nationals.

'Ight, touche.

 

[G3TL05T]

I'm confused by the clear discrepancy between your mu values and where you ranked Falco. From what you've said, it sounds like he loses to Marth and ICs, is even or worse with Fox and Puff, and has an advantage over Sheik and Pikachu (which is almost meaningless in today's meta). The only top 8 char you left out was Peach, who I think is widely regarded as one of Falco's harder mus, and then Falcon who isn't listed, but I'm assuming you consider it as Falco's favor.

So essentially, we have a character with 2 good mus, 2 iffy ones, and 3 bad ones. How does this add up to Falco not only being ranked second, but in his own tier above all 3 characters he loses to? It seems impossible if you compare him to Marth who you believe only struggles with Sheik and Puff and has solid wins over everyone else, including the two most popular characters... I'm just wondering where the disconnect is because you seem to have put a lot of thought into each mu, but then it's like you totally abandoned that when making the actual ranking.

Thanks for the reply, I see I should've justified my reasoning better. I also completely neglected to include the Peach MU. I'll edit my post.

The reason I put him so far up in the tier list is that despite having several iffy matchups, none of the matchups are particularly crippling. Vs Fox, it's close enough to be stage dependent, vs Marth, I'd say he loses by a little, vs Jiggs, just about even (much like Fox), Vs. Peach I still feel that it is very close. Peach can definitely wall out Falco pretty hard though, so much like the community believes right now, I feel that it's a hard matchup for Falco, yet definitely not crippling. Vs Sheik, I think he wins by a little for sure. Against ICs, seeing how Wobbles and Fly have done, it's pretty clear that Falco can't beat them like Fox. His shine just doesn't seem as safe for separating them, so although he has the tools kill Nana, he seems to get caught in De-sync combos more easily than Fox, Marth, and Peach. And yeah, I still think he beats Pikachu and Falcon.

Seeing your post, I think I should change my post, since I can't argue that Falco is above Marth just because his bad matchups "aren't that bad," since he has more of them, especially after I made the argument that Marth's bad matchups against Sheik and Jiggs have improved over the years for him. Guess I just went against my own thinking there.

 

[G3TL05T]

No arguments here, though I believe Fox is in the same tier as Falco, Marth, and Shiek.

You say he's even with Fox, but Marth beats him. You later go to say Marth beats or goes even with Fox. Wouldn't this make Falco third? This isn't even taking into account his poor/even match ups (according to you) against the IC's, Jiggly, and Sheik. I agree that Falco is second, but I think your reasoning behind why he's second is faulty.

Yeah, my reasoning behind why he's second is faulty. Several years of the community believing him to be second made me want to place him at second. The real reason I placed him at second is that despite having more bad matchups than Marth, I felt that all of the matchups were fairly close and could be overcome. Then again, based on my MU analysis for Marth, Falco should be third.

Just no, just no. This....this makes no sense. I can't tell whether you're trolling or not. Not even going to list all the reasons this is not true because it's just ridiculous.

Yeah, to be honest I kinda just like Pikachu and I was trying to give reasons for him to bot be totally trash. I don't in any way believe that he wins against any of the characters listed above him, just that his edge game is respectable against spacies. It's just that Axe's dominance at EVO has changed a lot of people's minds about Pikachu's viability, although I should be honest in my post, and since I don't believe him to be viable to win a national, I'll remove him.

 

[anikom15]

Marth > Falco
thoughts?

 

[Oskurito]

Marth > Falco
thoughts?

Why I believe falco holds a slight advantage:

Based only on high level tournament play, I think falco does better against marth than fox, and its seen as a solid answer against marth.

No fox outside mango can beat Mew2king's marth consistently (which is by far the best in the world hands down), on the other hand, both him and ppmd have proven to give him trouble with falco, beating mew2king many times in the past, even players like westballz have taken games off him.

Falco does better (imo) mostly because of lasers, shutting marth's superior movibility is what gives him an edge. Marth, has to rely a lot solely in his punish game, via grabs, edgeguards, gimps, etc. If falco doesn't make many mistakes it should be clear that it has an slight advantage. But again, one grab combo or gimp can totally turn the tables for marth.

If you talk about both characters as a whole, I wouldn't know what to say, since my experience with marth outside top8 characters (and even then..) is very limited.

But I'm very sure about ONE thing, is waaay easier to be consistent with marth than it is with falco, and consistency is very important the higher you go on the skill ladder in melee.

 

[ItsChon]

Why I believe falco holds a slight advantage:

Based only on high level tournament play, I think falco does better against marth than fox, and its seen as a solid answer against marth.

No fox outside mango can beat Mew2king's marth consistently (which is by far the best in the world hands down), on the other hand, both him and ppmd have proven to give him trouble with falco, beating mew2king many times in the past, even players like westballz have taken games off him.

Falco does better (imo) mostly because of lasers, shutting marth's superior movibility is what gives him an edge. Marth, has to rely a lot solely in his punish game, via grabs, edgeguards, gimps, etc. If falco doesn't make many mistakes it should be clear that it has an slight advantage. But again, one grab combo or gimp can totally turn the tables for marth.

If you talk about both characters as a whole, I wouldn't know what to say, since my experience with marth outside top8 characters (and even then..) is very limited.

But I'm very sure about ONE thing, is waaay easier to be consistent with marth than it is with falco, and consistency is very important the higher you go on the skill ladder in melee.

So I think we can all agree Marth is superior to Falco as of now?

 

[Oskurito]

So I think we can all agree Marth is superior to Falco as of now?

Seems to be at lower levels of play, but the higher you go, is clear that falco holds a slight advantage, I wouldn't say the same for fox though (in the marth mu).

To be honest, I don't like speaking theory about characters and mu, because quite frankly, for the vast majority of cases, is all bull****. And no offense, but most of the times, people who talk about these on forums (I've experienced the same thing in my country) are scrubs.

That's why I base my opinion solely on tournament results and a bit of the experience that I've adquired through all these years watching people play and playing people. And I'm definitively not mango like pro, but I'm pretty good. Not sure if my opinion is valid, but this is what I think as of now.

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Peach
6. Puff
7. ICs
8. C. Falcon.
9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Doc
12. Ganon
13. Luigi
14. Mario
15. Y. Link
16. Yoshi
17. Link
...

 

[1MachGO]

Marth > Falco
thoughts?

Definitely not. While the Marth meta has vastly improved the Sheik/Marth MU, I still believe it looms over him enough to keep him out of top 2. Falco, on the other hand, definitely lacks any losing MUs with the exception of maybeee Samus (who soft counters him at worst).

This is one of the reasons why I believe Falco > Fox, because, in all likelihood, Fox gets soft countered by Marth at high level. This is especially significant since Marth is so popular whereas Samus isn't quite at that level. If #s for the Marth and Samus playerbase swapped, I'd say Fox > Falco.

As for Falco's other "bad" MUs, they're all pretty mythical or extremely exaggerated. Peach vs. Falco has generally been considered evenish but I think Westballz's platform camping is too difficult to ignore at this point. That strat is stupid good and according to Armada it can be done on both battlefield AND dreamland. So we're talking about an unbannable win for Falco in Bo3's (plus Yoshi's which is a great stage for Falco) and 2 guaranteed wins in Bo5's. I think anyone is in denial if they don't say Falco>Peach at this point. If you're a falco player, I respect your decision to not play that way in the MU, but the meta has definitely shown this MU is no longer even for Peach.

Furthermore, the above strategy might have some implications vs. Puff. Idk if there are more limitations to it than there exists vs. Peach, but Puff's vertical mobility isn't all that impressive and Falco could probably challenge her uair with his insane dair. Even if the strat can't be performed, there is zero evidence to suggest that Puff beats Falco. Its either even or somewhat in Falco's favor to boot. However, I will not deny that Fox and Marth are significantly better at the MU.

I think someone mentioned Falco losing slightly to ICs but I don't understand how this is possible. Lasers is like the bane of climber shenanigans and Falco SHOULD kill nana with one shine on Battlefield, PS, and YS. Whether or not Falco is better than Fox at the MU is up for debate but I don't see Falco not winning this MU in the current meta.

In addition to Marth, Falco is also better than Fox vs. Sheik, Falcon, and every mid tier (minus Samus).

 

[the muted smasher]

Falco lasers I ice block he eats 4% I eat 3% and he risks being frozen and really lasers make de-synces easier. And I can always down-b shield a laser and let the shield drop lag let me buffer another down-b or do something oos.

Falco has a much of legit options vs ics but can can't abuse full hop approaches which is a bane of ics.

Look at peach float high, sheik fair, gannon, falcon, watch and zedla fair. They can all do a high sh (gannon/sheik) or a full jump and come down at an near impossible angle to cover that's super safe on shield/cc and they can react to anything ics do and choose to 2nd jump or waveland if ics do something.

Falco is pretty easy for ics but it's so style based on both ends. Sometimes it's just who has the better tricks, spacing, reads or control

 

[EddyBearr]

Seems to be at lower levels of play, but the higher you go, is clear that falco holds a slight advantage, I wouldn't say the same for fox though (in the marth mu).

To be honest, I don't like speaking theory about characters and mu, because quite frankly, for the vast majority of cases, is all bull****. And no offense, but most of the times, people who talk about these on forums (I've experienced the same thing in my country) are scrubs.

That's why I base my opinion solely on tournament results and a bit of the experience that I've adquired through all these years watching people play and playing people. And I'm definitively not mango like pro, but I'm pretty good. Not sure if my opinion is valid, but this is what I think as of now.

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Sheik
5. Peach
6. Puff
7. ICs
8. C. Falcon.
9. Pika
10. Samus
11. Doc
12. Ganon
13. Luigi
14. Mario
15. Y. Link
16. Yoshi
17. Link
...

I don't think you can realistically base things "mostly" on tournament results and have Luigi #13, Samus below Pika, or Young Link above Yoshi. Axe hasn't been replicated at nationals, while Samus and Luigi both top 32 frequently and are abundantly replicated by other players. And Yoshi has usage and (player-specific) success as an actual main, while Young Link only has success as a very specific counterpick.

While I guess Samus>Pika can be argued because of Axe's top 8's, Luigi below Ganon definitely can not be and below Doc is hard to argue for.

Personally, I like to look at three things:
1. Tournament results
2. Tournament results with respect to replication (EX: is it "just Armada" or is Peach always getting top 2?)
3. Matchups, weighed more heavily for higher tiers.

 

[1MachGO]

Falco lasers I ice block he eats 4% I eat 3% and he risks being frozen and really lasers make de-synces easier. And I can always down-b shield a laser and let the shield drop lag let me buffer another down-b or do something oos.

Falco has a much of legit options vs ics but can can't abuse full hop approaches which is a bane of ics.

Look at peach float high, sheik fair, gannon, falcon, watch and zedla fair. They can all do a high sh (gannon/sheik) or a full jump and come down at an near impossible angle to cover that's super safe on shield/cc and they can react to anything ics do and choose to 2nd jump or waveland if ics do something.

Falco is pretty easy for ics but it's so style based on both ends. Sometimes it's just who has the better tricks, spacing, reads or control

I strongly disagree with pretty much all of your points. I think you misinterpreted the statement "lasers is like the bane of ice climbers shenanigans" as being equivalent to "lasers are the bane of ice climbers". These aren't the same. I'm not talking about projectile battles between ICs and Falco (though Falco would probably win that TBH since lasers are a very non-committal, fast, and transcendent priority projectile) I'm talking about Falco being able to easily disrupt a climber's desyncs or set ups from a distance.

As for Falco lacking full hop approaches... who cares? He still has cross ups and shines vs. some of the least protective shields in the whole cast and can potentially slaughter Nana off one shine confirm. Seems better than Sheik's SH or FH fair.

And the only instance where Falco is probably easy for ICs is mid to low level. At higher levels of play, I just don't see Falco giving ICs as many opportunities to devastate him as much as the other way around. Just watch Axe vs. Wobbles. He relentlessly separates them and devastates Nana. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJL6v87_PAE

 

[the muted smasher]

XD get out of here man xD I mean falco is easy in the respect ics have really good otions vs falco compared to most.

But nearly everything falco does is pretty safe but he misses or misspaceed a little and is cced or ics can beat out his moves.

Falco can't just beat ics for no reason if he had a full jump the height of fox he would crap all over ics.

 

[Oskurito]

I don't think you can realistically base things "mostly" on tournament results and have Luigi #13, Samus below Pika, or Young Link above Yoshi. Axe hasn't been replicated at nationals, while Samus and Luigi both top 32 frequently and are abundantly replicated by other players. And Yoshi has usage and (player-specific) success as an actual main, while Young Link only has success as a very specific counterpick.

While I guess Samus>Pika can be argued because of Axe's top 8's, Luigi below Ganon definitely can not be and below Doc is hard to argue for.

Personally, I like to look at three things:
1. Tournament results
2. Tournament results with respect to replication (EX: is it "just Armada" or is Peach always getting top 2?)
3. Matchups, weighed more heavily for higher tiers.

I agree in all of what you've said. To be honest, I have no right to give an opinion anything below top 8 since I rarely have played those characters or have seen (on my country, youtube videos, etc.) them perform. I apologize if what I've said is very innacurate from what you've seen.

Imho, the whole reason characters below top 8 (A tier) are up there is because they have decent mu against spacies. But when you put them against a marth or sheik, I think the disadvantage becomes clear.

I want to mention Hugs amazing performance today against kirbykaze, this and duck's performance may be things that can contribute to samus getting (finally.. lol) one spot ahead of pika. I want to see how well they do in apex, and hopefully plup can get in the mix as well.

And I can totally agree with point no. 2 that you mentioned, is it just one guy that's doing it, or is everybody else getting better with a particular character. Because maybe is just a Hugo thing being good at the sheik mu (kind of like dark rain is) and it shouldn't be a significant factor, a similar thing can be said for armada, which is notoriously good against marth and sheik.

 

[EddyBearr]

I agree in all of what you've said. To be honest, I have no right to give an opinion anything below top 8 since I rarely have played those characters or have seen (on my country, youtube videos, etc.) them perform. I apologize if what I've said is very innacurate from what you've seen.

Imho, the whole reason characters below top 8 (A tier) are up there is because they have decent mu against spacies. But when you put them against a marth or sheik, I think the disadvantage becomes clear.

I want to mention Hugs amazing performance today against kirbykaze, this and duck's performance may be things that can contribute to samus getting (finally.. lol) one spot ahead of pika. I want to see how well they do in apex, and hopefully plup can get in the mix as well.

And I can totally agree with point no. 2 that you mentioned, is it just one guy that's doing it, or is everybody else getting better with a particular character. Because maybe is just a Hugo thing being good at the sheik mu (kind of like dark rain is) and it shouldn't be a significant factor, a similar thing can be said for armada, which is notoriously good against marth and sheik.

No strong disagreements here. Some things to note:

-Pika probably does worse against Sheik than Samus does, but I'd guess it's up for debate.
-Duck beat KirbyKaze and almost beat M2K Sheik like a month and a half ago. Most good Samus mains are pretty good against Sheiks.

Although, the matchup spread is a little more variable than that. Doc is even-ish with Jiggs, Samus and Luigi beat ICs, Samus and Pika don't do too bad against Marth. Although I'd agree than Marth/Sheik tend to have an advantage on all the listed A-Tier characters.

 

[1MachGO]

XD get out of here man xD I mean falco is easy in the respect ics have really good otions vs falco compared to most.

But nearly everything falco does is pretty safe but he misses or misspaceed a little and is cced or ics can beat out his moves.

Falco can't just beat ics for no reason if he had a full jump the height of fox he would crap all over ics.

Falco's dair and shine cannot be cc'd.

Full jump isn't necessary

 

[the muted smasher]

XD You really are trying to miss the points aren't You xD

Maybe You got a good falco but I don't think You really get ics because their f-smash is very poor at hitting someone when coming from a high angle and up-tilt won't hit there nor any other move but up-smash but it hits frame 14 which is to slow normally.

Why sheik, gannon, falcon, peach, zedla and game and watch can full jump or do a high sh and just hammer them or 2nd jump away or waveland. Special note for watch if You try to shffl fairs You'll fail ics will react to the jump and either smash You out on prediction or wd back and wait to punish.

But if You full jump I can't really stop it. And maybe I can run up do a sh ac upair watch can still pull back and fair/waveland/2nd jump and will often punish me still.

Same as the rest. Falco lacks the right height and has to rely on range and hard punishment. Ics will punish lasers or use them to start something.

Yeah I can't cc dair/shine but Do You really think I was suggesting I cc dair/shine when there's every single other move falco has at low percents???

No the match-up is easy in there's no silly in Your face jump games while falcos jump is very different but isn't part of the approach game so there isn't much to the neutral outside of style of play and You guys figure out each others dumb tricks/spacing

 

[1MachGO]

Just realized you are ICG's alt. So I wouldn't accuse me of missing points. Please go watch Axe's Falco vs. Wobbles at Smash the Target or Forte 2 and tell me he hasn't figured out just how potent Falco's tools are in the MU. I never denied the full jump stuff can be good, I am simply stating that it isn't necessary for Falco since he has other means to open them up.

 

[Bones0]

Falco's dair and shine cannot be cc'd.

That isn't true at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Does anybody know when the next tier list will be posted?

Sorry for just barging into this conversation, but I'm not sure where else to ask.

 

[ItsChon]

Seems to be at lower levels of play, but the higher you go, is clear that falco holds a slight advantage, I wouldn't say the same for fox though (in the marth mu).

To be honest, I don't like speaking theory about characters and mu, because quite frankly, for the vast majority of cases, is all bull****. And no offense, but most of the times, people who talk about these on forums (I've experienced the same thing in my country) are scrubs.

Well, in theory Falco might have a small edge, but this has yet to be proven. The question is whether the edge is large enough to turn the match up into a 6:4, or whether the edge is easy enough for the majority of Falcon players to take advantage of. That's why I think Marth>Falco

If you want to look at it through tournament results, that's even easier. Just compare the amount of successful Marths to successful Falco's. I think we both know which character has seen more success.

Definitely not. While the Marth meta has vastly improved the Sheik/Marth MU, I still believe it looms over him enough to keep him out of top 2. Falco, on the other hand, definitely lacks any losing MUs with the exception of maybeee Samus (who soft counters him at worst).

Let's slow down here. Both characters have 6:4 match ups, but Marth performs better than Falco against Fox. Than there are plenty of other arguable match ups against Falco. IC's, Puff, and Peach are all capable of giving Falco a run for his money as oppose to Marth who's only poor match up is Shiek.

This is one of the reasons why I believe Falco > Fox, because, in all likelihood, Fox gets soft countered by Marth at high level. This is especially significant since Marth is so popular whereas Samus isn't quite at that level. If #s for the Marth and Samus playerbase swapped, I'd say Fox > Falco.

I'll stop you right there. Let's just get a few things out of the way.

Fox>Falco
Marth >Fox
Marth = Falco
Samus>Falco
Shiek>Marth

Falco is at a disadvantage against Fox, Samus, and arguably IC's/Puff/Peach. Marths only poor match up is Shiek. How can you put Falco above Marth?

As for Falco's other "bad" MUs, they're all pretty mythical or extremely exaggerated. Peach vs. Falco has generally been considered evenish but I think Westballz's platform camping is too difficult to ignore at this point. That strat is stupid good and according to Armada it can be done on both battlefield AND dreamland. So we're talking about an unbannable win for Falco in Bo3's (plus Yoshi's which is a great stage for Falco) and 2 guaranteed wins in Bo5's. I think anyone is in denial if they don't say Falco>Peach at this point. If you're a falco player, I respect your decision to not play that way in the MU, but the meta has definitely shown this MU is no longer even for Peach.

Speak for your self. Last year it was pretty widely accepted Peach was superior to Falco. Falco is not better than Peach, at best he's equal.

Furthermore, the above strategy might have some implications vs. Puff. Idk if there are more limitations to it than there exists vs. Peach, but Puff's vertical mobility isn't all that impressive and Falco could probably challenge her uair with his insane dair. Even if the strat can't be performed, there is zero evidence to suggest that Puff beats Falco. Its either even or somewhat in Falco's favor to boot. However, I will not deny that Fox and Marth are significantly better at the MU.

Even if Puff has an even match up with Falco, both Fox and Marth have superior MU's against him. Fox and Marth also have superior MU's against Peach. How is Falco>Fox, or even Falco>Marth?

I think someone mentioned Falco losing slightly to ICs but I don't understand how this is possible. Lasers is like the bane of climber shenanigans and Falco SHOULD kill nana with one shine on Battlefield, PS, and YS. Whether or not Falco is better than Fox at the MU is up for debate but I don't see Falco not winning this MU in the current meta.

I'll let the IC main's argue this one out with you.

In addition to Marth, Falco is also better than Fox vs. Sheik, Falcon, and every mid tier (minus Samus).

Marth's positive MU's

Peach +1
IC + 1
Doc + 2
Pikachu + 2
Sammus + 1
Luigi + 2
Mario + 2

Falco's positive mu'S

C.Falcon + 2
Doc + 1
Pikachu + 2
Gannon + 1
Luigi + 2
Mario + 1

Not only does Marth have more positive MU's, his MU's are on average even better for him than they are for Falco.

 

[the muted smasher]

Nitpick on match-ups I've heard pika beats marth at higher levels. Likly lots of axe bias but pikachu does have some down right stupid tools. Pika has the best tech in place in the game him and pichu have 24 Inv. Frames while everyone else has 20 and tech in place is 26 frames so that is a big deal when You don't have long lasting moves like marth. Also dd nair is a thing for sure. But idk if pika really wins it so much as it isn't a bad match-up



Ics match-ups really have to many factors to judge most the time. To really say ics win/lose vs falco, gannon, luigi, and etc.

The 2 factors in match-up to think about is the neutral(what can You get/how often) and the punishment game.

Nana adds a coin flip to each match-up and honestly I don't think You can take away that coin flip because it matters a lot more if sheik/puff can get the quick kill because nana does something weird. And vs falcon I'd go a far as to say that is the least damaging to be sopo just because now You can also dd to avoid the knee and Your punishment can be just as strong with tech chases and edge guards. Not that it isn't an up hill battle.

I also believe there isn't a real ics game plan book that sets the standard like how people do against them.

Sheik comes in and says I'm going to platform camp needles/fair and sometimes spaced bair and take basic combos as I get them and try to avoid grabs/upairs.

Ics can shield de-synce with normal/light shield and try to use that to make popo jump back fair while buffering a grab with nana should I fail.

I could try to wd in ruin sheiks spacing and cc/shield.

There are also a good handful of de-synces and ways to nickel and dime sheik from the other side with Your ice blocks if You try to just react to her trying to needle.

There are upairs sh/full hopped and I've seen an ics who legit used up-smash reliably even if I disagree.

I can stick to wd spacing to force a whiff on needles I can do full jump fairs as sheik is doing a sh and she'll whiff her fair and I'll smack her and and even if they sh and know they messed up and make me whiff they can't get me if I pulled back.

I really can't judge the neutral game for the match-up because i know a few gimmicks are really strong and really are worth noting like side-b. I think sheik will jump and be to far to wd under but if I side-b that's 2-25% and a follow-up if they take it bad like try to cc punish and I cc back. And it's really wierd for sheik to have ics directly overhead in front to avoid up-tilt but to low to be able to sh fair. It's just a wierd spot that gives a different reward than upairs that's harder to punish with platform drops if You use this vs a sheik on a platform.

 

[Varist]

It's annoying that there are a few people in here creating tier arguments on the foundation that Falco has an easier Marth matchup than Fox does.

 

[the muted smasher]

Falco does do better vs marth on fod but???? XD

 

[1MachGO]

...

Not gonna lie, man, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Don't say stuff like "slow down here" when literally all your points of contention are addressed shortly after (clearly you're the one that needs to slow down lol). And especially don't say stuff like "even if Puff has an even match up with Falco, both Fox and Marth have superior MU's against him" like you're telling it to me for the first time. Literally, in the section you quoted I state: "Its either even or somewhat in Falco's favor to boot. However, I will not deny that Fox and Marth are significantly better at the MU." Why are you trying to inform me on something I already stated? The list goes on in regards to other things you ignored or blatantly misinterpreted.

Now with that out of the way, I am going to tell you right off the bat that quantified MU ratios do not exist. Now I know you're new to this game (not because of your join date but as evident by you're thread asking for wavedashing tips) so its definitely forgivable to assume old as **** MU charts are empirical. With that said, the match up ratios on ssbwiki or whatever your source may be is not only outdated but misleading since many people would contend they're flawed assessments. To elaborate, the usage of numbers gives the implication that MUs can be quantified/measured. However, this is simply not true. There are too many ****ing variables in this game to assume that a MU can be measured and then used in averaging for comparison. Using broader terms such as even, counter, soft counter/hard counter, etc. are more effective because they don't make definitive quantification, keep things relative, and are easy to interpret.

Furthermore, the logic of higher MU ratio = higher tier placement is fundamentally flawed. By that way of thinking, Sheik should be the best in the game because her 4 non-winning MUs would be drowned out in averaging by her hard counter potential vs. 75% of the cast. However, since we know that not every character is of equal viability/popularity, certain MU advantages become more significant.

In regards to you're MU disagreements, I'll address them quickly here:

Samus vs. Falco
This is another instance where you didn't read anything I said. Hopefully you'll get it this time when combined with the above explanation: Marth's loss to Sheik is more SIGNIFICANT than Falco's loss to Samus because SHEIK IS MORE POPULAR THAN SAMUS. They are not 1:1.

Of course, how bad Falco's loss is to Samus is another point of debate but its irrelevant due to the above statement.

Peach vs. Falco
You... literally didn't disprove any of the points I brought up. Have you not seen Westballz vs. Armada at BH4 or Armada's interview at the same tournament? The meta has definitely changed and saying it was even a year ago is irrelevant. Sheik countered Marth harder a few years ago as well but it has little bearing on the current meta.

Fox vs. Falco
There is no evidence to suggest one beats the other. The MU is played extremely frequently at high level and it goes back and forth all the time. No idea where you got Fox >Falco.

Falco vs. Puff
Again, it comes down to MU significance. Puff isn't as popular as some of the other high/top tiers (such as Falcon who Falco has a fantastic MU against). Marth and Fox's win here. while important, isn't significant enough to definitively make them better than Falco.

 

[EddyBearr]

I actually think Falco has a slight advantage on Samus, but that it's closer to even than either's advantage. You can't really argue that for Marth-Sheik.. Not yet.

The biggest difference between Falco/Marth is that, despite otherwise comparable matchup spreads, Falco bodies Falcon and lacks things like the Ganon matchup problem.

 

[Bones0]

How can you cite Westballz camping the top plat in a single set (which he LOST) as evidence the matchup is somehow unwinnable now? Maybe if someone actually beats Armada multiple times we can consider the strategy reliable, but just based on that one set, it seems like Armada just didn't know WTF to do against it because no one near Westballz's skill level has ever camped him like that.

 

[ItsChon]

Let me just one thing straight before we continue this argument. Are you arguing Falco should have a higher spot on a tier list, or are you arguing that Falco has an advantage in the Marth Falco match up? Anyway, to answer your points.

Not gonna lie, man, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Don't say stuff like "slow down here" when literally all your points of contention are addressed shortly after (clearly you're the one that needs to slow down lol). And especially don't say stuff like "even if Puff has an even match up with Falco, both Fox and Marth have superior MU's against him" like you're telling it to me for the first time. Literally, in the section you quoted I state: "Its either even or somewhat in Falco's favor to boot. However, I will not deny that Fox and Marth are significantly better at the MU." Why are you trying to inform me on something I already stated? The list goes on in regards to other things you ignored or blatantly misinterpreted.

Not gonna lie man, you really need to learn the nuances of a how a human conversation works as opposed to, let's say an essay. When I say "slow down there", I'm not saying that you're going too fast for me to follow. It's how people speak when they are talking to other people. I'm using it so I can lead into my other points. It's just how I talk, no need to think anything of it. As for me trying to inform you about a point you already stated, I'm telling you again to show how your argument made no sense. Why are you arguing Falco should have a superior placing on a tier list because of his match up with Jigglypuff, when both Fox and Marth have better match ups?

Now with that out of the way, I am going to tell you right off the bat that quantified MU ratios do not exist. Now I know you're new to this game (not because of your join date but as evident by you're thread asking for wavedashing tips) so its definitely forgivable to assume old as **** MU charts are empirical. With that said, the match up ratios on ssbwiki or whatever your source may be is not only outdated but misleading since many people would contend they're flawed assessments. To elaborate, the usage of numbers gives the implication that MUs can be quantified/measured. However, this is simply not true. There are too many ****ing variables in this game to assume that a MU can be measured and then used in averaging for comparison. Using broader terms such as even, counter, soft counter/hard counter, etc. are more effective because they don't make definitive quantification, keep things relative, and are easy to interpret.

Alright, I can admit that you have a point here. It isn't fair to give hard numerical values to match ups when there are different factors at play.

In regards to you're MU disagreements, I'll address them quickly here:

Samus vs. Falco
This is another instance where you didn't read anything I said. Hopefully you'll get it this time when combined with the above explanation: Marth's loss to Sheik is more SIGNIFICANT than Falco's loss to Samus because SHEIK IS MORE POPULAR THAN SAMUS. They are not 1:1.

Of course, how bad Falco's loss is to Samus is another point of debate but its irrelevant due to the above statement.

Peach vs. Falco
You... literally didn't disprove any of the points I brought up. Have you not seen Westballz vs. Armada at BH4 or Armada's interview at the same tournament? The meta has definitely changed and saying it was even a year ago is irrelevant. Sheik countered Marth harder a few years ago as well but it has little bearing on the current meta.

Fox vs. Falco
There is no evidence to suggest one beats the other. The MU is played extremely frequently at high level and it goes back and forth all the time. No idea where you got Fox >Falco.

Falco vs. Puff
Again, it comes down to MU significance. Puff isn't as popular as some of the other high/top tiers (such as Falcon who Falco has a fantastic MU against). Marth and Fox's win here. while important, isn't significant enough to definitively make them better than Falco.

Samus vs. Falco
Alright fair enough, I can admit when I'm wrong.

Peach vs. Falco
I'll refer to Bones' statement above. All of his points make sense. You can't cite a tactic as full proof using only one set as your evidence. Especially when it was a set that Westballz lost.

Fox vs. Falco
Falco's primary advantage over Fox is his lasers. This match up is more stage dependent than anything. It's unfair to claim that Fox is outright superior to Falco, but he has an easier time against Falco than he does against Marth.

Falco vs. Puff
What about Marth's advantage over Peach as opposed to Falco's poor match up? Or what about Marth's match up against the IC's?

 

[1MachGO]

How can you cite Westballz camping the top plat in a single set (which he LOST) as evidence the matchup is somehow unwinnable now? Maybe if someone actually beats Armada multiple times we can consider the strategy reliable, but just based on that one set, it seems like Armada just didn't know WTF to do against it because no one near Westballz's skill level has ever camped him like that.

He won the game he camped and promptly stopped using it the rest of the set. Armada talks about how effective the top plat is and how it's a strategy he has feared since he picked up peach (claiming it works on both battlefield and dreamland). Idk why westballz didn't camp the rest of the set, but I know for a fact that the strategy worked when he tried it, looked stupid good for how simple it is, and armada seemed extremely pessimistic about peach's ability to counter it. I'll give you that Falco > peach is a rash conclusion given the small amount of data but the logic is all there.

You're a decent Falco. How about you just try it vs your local peach's and see if they can counter you.

@ ItsChon in regards to Falco vs peach, you obviously didn't watch the set either. Westballz only used the strategy once on dreamland and won that game. I elaborate on this above when addressing bones. As for Marths advantages vs puff/Ics, these are cancelled out by falco's more significant equivalents such as good mus vs falcon and sheik; both of whom are more popular(though I also believe Falco beats climbers pretty handily at top level and Falco/puff is evenish like marth/falcon)

 

[ItsChon]

@ ItsChon in regards to Falco vs peach, you obviously didn't watch the set either. Westballz only used the strategy once on dreamland and won that game. I elaborate on this above when addressing bones. As for Marths advantages vs puff/Ics, these are cancelled out by falco's more significant equivalents such as good mus vs falcon and sheik; both of whom are more popular(though I also believe Falco beats climbers pretty handily at top level and Falco/puff is evenish like marth/falcon)

You're entire argument is based off of popularity. So you're telling me that if Puff/IC's became more popular than Falcon and Shiek, you'd place Marth above Falco?

 

[john!]

^ his argument is legit since the tier list is based off of tournament viability

 

[EddyBearr]

Am I the only one who thinks Falco is effectively 50-50 against each of the top 8 (except Falcon)?

By contrast, I think Marth is about 50-50 against all top 8, with a 55-45 Peach and 45-55 Sheik.