Don't use EU as examples for match-ups unless it's perfectly agreed by everybody that the match-up displayed is played accurately. The match-up is in DDDs favor at lower levels, considerably. Competent Snakes are really freaking tough.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
2012 King Dedede Matchup Export #2 - Snake
- Thread starter KuroganeHammer
- Start date
Let's assume a higher level of play (since that's what MU threads should be based on), would even, or 0 be relatively fair?
Xubble
Smash Ace
I think the +1 is right really. The MU requires Snake to make absolutely no mistakes in his camping, and that's a lot of pressure from Dedede who knows what he's doing and who only needs a single grab to lay down some serious hurt. Not to mention that Dedede has a CP or two that give him good advantages (I'm looking at you, Delfino. You with your high platforms for approach and your walk offs and your walls and your changing and your billcosby.png) while Snake really doesn't get much from CPs against Dedede (larger area for camping or smaller stage for better control, it's one or the other.)
Like I said before, Snake will have no problems if the Dedede doesn't know what the hell he's doing. But assuming he DOES (which the MU chart should), then he's put under a lot of pressure.
Like I said before, Snake will have no problems if the Dedede doesn't know what the hell he's doing. But assuming he DOES (which the MU chart should), then he's put under a lot of pressure.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I'm guessing EU = European Union? Well, what's wrong w/ Europe? Don't they have the same version of Brawl that we do?Don't use EU as examples for match-ups unless it's perfectly agreed by everybody that the match-up displayed is played accurately. The match-up is in DDDs favor at lower levels, considerably. Competent Snakes are really freaking tough.
Yeah, if Snake CP's any stage, it only serves to try and make the MU more neutral. He suffers terribly from Siege (walk-offs), Delfino (walk-offs and walls), PS 1 & 2 (walls and ridiculous transformations), and Frigate (wall and stage flips); he definitely doesn't want to bring D3 to Brinstar or RC. That leaves the other neutrals and Halberd, so now, it's pick your poison. Does Snake give himself a larger stage for better camping but more brutal CG punishes if he screws up (Final D and Smashville), a smaller stage for better control but more frequent punishes (BF and Yoshi's), or a stage with gimmicks that can potentially hurt or help him (Lylat and Halberd)?
Most of us aren't good enough to be taken into consideration. That video you provided shows high-mid levels of play, like the majority of EU videos do. Most of us just aren't that good.
That's how the match-up plays out between good players:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOSPZmfgbqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5au5habhrk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsSZHKfUZMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4GJXuYXsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAnLaDihIlI
Match-up is def. even.
That's how the match-up plays out between good players:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOSPZmfgbqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5au5habhrk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsSZHKfUZMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4GJXuYXsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAnLaDihIlI
Match-up is def. even.
Xubble
Smash Ace
Some of those videos are from 2010. Anything before late 2011 is really not relevant anymore. And what does most of our skill level have to do with it? The MU chart depicts the highest level of play, not what the majority of Smashers play.
Xubble
Smash Ace
Ooooh. Well, maybe EU has a more even MU with Snake, but given the conditions here in NA where most top level D3/Snake players are, I think the MU is more along the lines of +1 D3. I'd still love some input from actual top D3 players though so they can tell me I'm right/wrong.
Seibrik, Coney, Zekey, Atomsk, 4GOD, Tech_Chase... I SUMMON THEE!!
Seibrik, Coney, Zekey, Atomsk, 4GOD, Tech_Chase... I SUMMON THEE!!
Coney
Smash Master
It's like a lot of DDD's matchups, honestly:
At low-level play, DDD wins SOLIDLY. At mid-level, it's a pretty solid advantage. But at the tippy-tippy-top of the metagame, I honestly think Snake wins the matchup. It's pretty slight, probably just a +1, but it's there.
I mean ****, if ****ing 9B, our God who art in Japan, can lose that matchup, it CAN'T be advantageous.
At low-level play, DDD wins SOLIDLY. At mid-level, it's a pretty solid advantage. But at the tippy-tippy-top of the metagame, I honestly think Snake wins the matchup. It's pretty slight, probably just a +1, but it's there.
I mean ****, if ****ing 9B, our God who art in Japan, can lose that matchup, it CAN'T be advantageous.
Glad to see I'm not the only 9B worshiper
although he doesn't play d3 at all anymore? XD
MU vs snake is even at best imo (high level). It helps when snakes are willing to defy your uptilt at kill %.
If not, kill at 200% with dthrow dtilt herpderp. If youre lucky you can actually hit him in the air, cuz d3's mobility is *** even compared to snake's >.>
Also Gheb youre a bit too strict. EU is good enough. Finland isnt
although he doesn't play d3 at all anymore? XD
MU vs snake is even at best imo (high level). It helps when snakes are willing to defy your uptilt at kill %.
If not, kill at 200% with dthrow dtilt herpderp. If youre lucky you can actually hit him in the air, cuz d3's mobility is *** even compared to snake's >.>
Also Gheb youre a bit too strict. EU is good enough. Finland isnt
I remember hearing Se1br1k talking about the MU at a tourny awhile ago saying it was even, Coney says DDD loses, Atomsk says even/DDD loses, I THINK 4GOD said he can easily believe it's an even MU.
R@zer thinks DDD gets ***** (AFAIK), I think Hav0k believes Snake wins, 9B loses/lost the MU at times, not sure what @lly thinks, MVD believes it's even last I heard.
4GOD (JJV)
Smash Apprentice
I think +1 D3 (stages), but I've only ever played MVD and Bizkit...
Can't say much about a matchup I haven't played at the tippy top. When MVD and I play it's usually close and he'll beat me like 2-1. I think that's b/c he's the better player, not the better character.
If you shield mortar slide, you can shield-grab Snake pretty easily 'cause of shield stun.
And what Zekey said in his first post on the thread.
Im really feeling it's an advantageous matchup. As the game goes on, we should be racking on more percent than he is with chaingrabs and offstage aerial mixups (not to mention the potential gimp). The majority of his percentage racking on us are should be from what? Nades? Cmon...
Most of the time, killing him just takes reading, with a kill move, what he'll do as he falls to the ground (or gimping him)
Killing us may be just as easy, but still we should be getting him to kill % much sooner.
And we shouldnt be giving much about grenades...just rambo through that jank
Tbh, maybe Im just being real naive, but hey, Xubble wanted to hear what I think. I did this for you...all for you...mi amor.
Forgot to mention, I'm 1-1 with Ally (friendlies) :D :D :D :D :D
Now...if you guys wanna talk Wario or PT...heh heh, jk
Also...why am I posting like Seibrik? Freaking one line and break, one line and break lol
Can't say much about a matchup I haven't played at the tippy top. When MVD and I play it's usually close and he'll beat me like 2-1. I think that's b/c he's the better player, not the better character.
If you shield mortar slide, you can shield-grab Snake pretty easily 'cause of shield stun.
And what Zekey said in his first post on the thread.
Im really feeling it's an advantageous matchup. As the game goes on, we should be racking on more percent than he is with chaingrabs and offstage aerial mixups (not to mention the potential gimp). The majority of his percentage racking on us are should be from what? Nades? Cmon...
Most of the time, killing him just takes reading, with a kill move, what he'll do as he falls to the ground (or gimping him)
Killing us may be just as easy, but still we should be getting him to kill % much sooner.
And we shouldnt be giving much about grenades...just rambo through that jank
Tbh, maybe Im just being real naive, but hey, Xubble wanted to hear what I think. I did this for you...all for you...mi amor.
Forgot to mention, I'm 1-1 with Ally (friendlies) :D :D :D :D :D
Now...if you guys wanna talk Wario or PT...heh heh, jk
Also...why am I posting like Seibrik? Freaking one line and break, one line and break lol
bubbaking
Smash Hero
4God has spoken....
Zekeishere
Smash Ace
Yeah, Like I said, this is my most played MU besides DDD MK.
Its really easy to auto pilot low/mid level snakes I'd say its like a 60/40. But top Snakes are a lot harder. The snakes that do the 'nade-pull-slide-forward-grab cause it outranges our grab and the like. At that level the MU is definitely equal, and I can see how is in snakes favor. While playing Snakes like Havok, Fatal, and Razer. Just remember to spot dodge nades, and roll back when they dacus.
and idk who sneakytako plays, but against TOP snakes rolling back is definitely better than pivot grab in that aspect. Since its VERY hard to react to a good snakes dacus. And besides, unless they are stupid or overconfident, they are not going to take any of the ground that you give them by rolling back. Hurrr
You gotta get your gimps down out of D throw cause that's one of the rests WHY its still even.
Its really easy to auto pilot low/mid level snakes I'd say its like a 60/40. But top Snakes are a lot harder. The snakes that do the 'nade-pull-slide-forward-grab cause it outranges our grab and the like. At that level the MU is definitely equal, and I can see how is in snakes favor. While playing Snakes like Havok, Fatal, and Razer. Just remember to spot dodge nades, and roll back when they dacus.
and idk who sneakytako plays, but against TOP snakes rolling back is definitely better than pivot grab in that aspect. Since its VERY hard to react to a good snakes dacus. And besides, unless they are stupid or overconfident, they are not going to take any of the ground that you give them by rolling back. Hurrr
You gotta get your gimps down out of D throw cause that's one of the rests WHY its still even.
Xubble
Smash Ace
I'm loved by the great 4GOD! I am truly blessed! <34GOD said:
But for reals, I don't avoid nades like they're the plague. 4% on hit > Avoiding any possible damage and making the MU harder than it really is. I mean, yeah, avoid nades that WILL explode when they reach you, but a Snake that's cooking a grenade is leaving you with an opportunity to approach. A shield dropped nade in hand will limit his ground options (no jab or tilts, and can Snake DACUS with a nade in hand? I don't think he can), and his air options aren't very helpful against an approaching D3, especially while he has a nade still in hand.
tl;dr: Nades aren't unbeatable. Abuse the cons of nade pulls, and you'll be in the clear.
Grenades are pretty ****.
I used to think they were a great and OMGamazing projectile until about 1.5 years ago.
At this point I'm still seeing the MU as even at higher levels of play. I also think it's the fairest number to give the matchup seeing how everyone has a different opinion on what the number should be.
I used to think they were a great and OMGamazing projectile until about 1.5 years ago.
At this point I'm still seeing the MU as even at higher levels of play. I also think it's the fairest number to give the matchup seeing how everyone has a different opinion on what the number should be.
**Havok**
Smash Lord
I think its even or snake wins barelyyyyyy. Snake has too many answers and options to D3... he's kinda 2 dimensional. But yea it depends on the snake pilot, style of play, and a low error count.
Pros for snake:
-He can camp hardcore, bait d3 to camp which is a losing situation.
-can juggle d3 leading to a down throw
-down throw is easy to react to, can lead to ftilt which = offstage.
- keeping d3 off the stage is easy as long as you're careful of the grab from one end of the stage
And more stuff.
Cons:
-snake landing on the wrong side = a million percent.
-easy to start approaching and open yourself to more errors.
-d3 has guaranteed dmg outlet
And other stuff.
Edit: rolling backwards is really good vs a dash attack happy snake. It gives you room for a decent chain grab.
Pros for snake:
-He can camp hardcore, bait d3 to camp which is a losing situation.
-can juggle d3 leading to a down throw
-down throw is easy to react to, can lead to ftilt which = offstage.
- keeping d3 off the stage is easy as long as you're careful of the grab from one end of the stage
And more stuff.
Cons:
-snake landing on the wrong side = a million percent.
-easy to start approaching and open yourself to more errors.
-d3 has guaranteed dmg outlet
And other stuff.
Edit: rolling backwards is really good vs a dash attack happy snake. It gives you room for a decent chain grab.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I'm honestly fine with calling this matchup even now, the more I play it. It's incredibly difficult to get in on Snake in a position where you can actually chain grab him. It's about keeping the momentum and getting that CG, getting him off the stage and pressuring him effectively. And even if he gets back on the stage, you should have tacked on a good amount of damage and you still have the option to cover his landing and reset the situation. Its simply a matter of getting a read off his reaction to your Down Throw off the stage and following up.
D3 gets more of a simple read/punish in this matchup but Snake is really good at limiting the opportunities for D3 to get in that optimal position...all while tacking on damage.
D3 gets more of a simple read/punish in this matchup but Snake is really good at limiting the opportunities for D3 to get in that optimal position...all while tacking on damage.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Even with all this, I still feel like the +1 is accurate. Also, D3s have to make sure they get that port priority; it could always help.
I have to agree with a lot of people that the match-up is +1 and only advantageous to Dedede because of the counterpick stages. We can take more advantage of these than Snake can. But I have two questions:
#1: How can we deal with a Snake who is in the air above us and is constantly using a Grenade Wavebounce to land safely on the ground?
#2: What is this whole Inhale Release to Happy Ending shenanigan about? I heard it was the best thing since the d-throw chaingrab.
Thank you and GO MY FELLOW DEDEDEs!
#1: How can we deal with a Snake who is in the air above us and is constantly using a Grenade Wavebounce to land safely on the ground?
#2: What is this whole Inhale Release to Happy Ending shenanigan about? I heard it was the best thing since the d-throw chaingrab.
Thank you and GO MY FELLOW DEDEDEs!
bubbaking
Smash Hero
No, I think there's a shred of truth to what Lion said. We do probably get more perks out of all the CPs than Snake does. This includes CPs that we don't normally enjoy, like Brinstar.That's just flat-out not true.
1. Well, I'm not exactly sure what a "Grenade Wavebounce" is, but I think our uair can hit through pretty much anything Snake has in the air. We can also usmash hard reads and our utilt has a speck of invincibility and good reach, so we can hit through a surprising number of things with that as well.
2. I'm not sure what this is, but I have a hunch that you're referring to D3 inhaling Snake off of his cipher. If so, then here's how it works: hopefully, you're aware of the fact that if Snake is grabbed off of his cipher and then released without pummeling or throwing him, he does not regain the use of his upB. This goes for any grab. Luckily for us, Dedede has two grabs: his regular one and his inhale. Both will do the same thing to Snake. However, when D3 inhales Snake off of his cipher, due to the proximity of his body to the cipher, he often ends up getting hit by it. This causes an immediate and automatic release which leaves Snake crippled and without a recovery. This is awesome, because while D3's regular grab requires him to be onstage, his swallow can be performed ANYWHERE. D3 can jump offstage and swallow Snake in order to gimp him at pretty much ANY percent.
Let's see ...
- Delphino: The hazards help him to camp, stage transformations break him free of CGs, the bigger stage makes it even harder to catch him. The stage hardly affects the match-up and it doesn't really help us much at all
- Siege / Halberd: Virtually the same as any neutral and I think Snake even CPs Halberd vs us [though I'm not sure if it's actually the best choice].
- Frigate / Stadium 1 & 2: Lots of opportunities for Snake to camp and break free of CGs; VERY hard for us to land safely anywhere on these stages
- RC: Snake is broken here and DDD has a hard time catching up to him. IDK though almost all good tourneys ban this stage but I doubt it helps us more than it helps Snake
- Brinstar: dunno how it's anywhere near our favor there. We gain NOTHING on Brinstar that Snake doesn't gain while losing almost every chance to CG him. It's also hard as **** to land against Snake here.
We definitely don't have a better selection of CPs than Snake does. I think people GREATLY overrate how much CPs influence the outcome of this match-up ... it changes the way the match-up should be played but on virtually all CPs the MU never goes beyond 0 from our point of view.
Brinstar is bad.
Simply by sticking a C4 on the top platform, Snake now has control of the entire stage. lol
Simply by sticking a C4 on the top platform, Snake now has control of the entire stage. lol
Ralph Cecil
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2010
- Messages
- 2,416
- Location
- Somewhere in KY QQQQQQQQQQ
- NNID
- RalphCecil
- 3DS FC
- 4098-4850-8033
^^^This lol. <3 Brinstar
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Stage transformations add walls and walk-offs for CG infinites and easy kills. This doesn't really matter much, but water allows for janky upB spikes w/ D3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeOfE-a4uRA#t=0m40s XD
Sure Halberd may help Snake more than us, but Siege adds walk-offs on one transformation and during each stage transition for easy CG kills. Statues also get in the way of grenades and Nikita missiles.
Frigate might help Snake more than us, sure. PS1 and PS2 bring in walls for CG infinites. PS2's flying form makes killing Snake in the air easier cus D3 gets enhanced aerial mobility and his aerial game ***** Snake. Killing with uair and such becomes much more viable on that transformation. The electric and ice forms bring in dthrow>usmash combos. The electric form also gets rid of his C4 if it lands on the treadmill.
At least four walls for CG infinites. Also being forced to take to the air can help D3 take him down with his superior gimping ability. For a time, there are also walk-offs for easy CG kills.
Having Snake offstage everytime we grab him isn't really such a bad trade for less CGs. More gimps, Happy Endings, etc. Yes, Snake exerts incredible stage control, but we can exert some form of control as well.
Absolutely wrong. If no CP made the MU greater than 0, than the total MU wouldn't be 0 in the first place, and that net MU value is what most of us have agreed on. I'm not saying all those stuff I listed will automatically make the MU easy. Sure, it's gonna be hard to grab Snake to capitalize on all those walls and walk-offs, but such is the life of King Dedede! It's not gonna come free!We definitely don't have a better selection of CPs than Snake does. I think people GREATLY overrate how much CPs influence the outcome of this match-up ... it changes the way the match-up should be played but on virtually all CPs the MU never goes beyond 0 from our point of view.
Hey Bubbaking. Good information on that grab release after a Snake uses his cypher. What I mean by a grenade wavebounce is that when you're traveling in a certain direction in the air, you can change your momentum to quickly bounce back in the opposite direction and mindgame someone. This is done by pressing the B button (while traveling, say, to the right) and quickly tilting the control stick to the left AFTER it is pressed. It has a lot of names. B-Reversal, B-Reversal wavebounce, Wavebounce, etc. From what I have read, I think Seibrik found out about the Inhale Release to Happy Ending or IRHE. The way it works is when you use Inhale on your opponent, as long as they are struggling to get out, you can buffer an up-tilt as they go into the release animation. I have no clue how it's done but I've seen a video on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yfMoegHvcY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yfMoegHvcY
allshort17
Smash Ace
They have to mash out of the inhale. Then, the second they come out on top of you, you have to utilt. It's terribly hard just to get someone to mash out inhale if they know about this, let alone actually know when they will come out to do the utilt.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Ohhhhh, that! Well, if I remember correctly, D3 can just hold up so that he can utilt as soon as possible. Also, for some reason, whenever I see D3's do this, they always turn around multiple times before the release happens. Any ideas why?
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
That if cause you can't buffer the up tilt with out your a button input causing you to spit them out unless you are buffering turn arounds.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Can't you just press the A button as soon as they pop out while holding up on the C-stick?
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
The timing is super sensitive. It basically requires buffering but you can't buffer unless you are mashing while spinning. Also you need to spin by holding diagonal up to the sides. Play around with it. It isn't that easy and only works if they mash. If they don't mash you just spit them out after a while.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Does D3 suffer damage if the opponent breaks out of Inhale?
Edit: And does the opponent for that matter?
Edit: And does the opponent for that matter?
No, the spinning is so you can mash the a button without spitting them out. I think.
Doesn't pressing the c-stick spit your opponent out? lol
I dunno, I never use the move unless I'm in teams and I'm spitting my teammate at people. looooooool
I dunno, I never use the move unless I'm in teams and I'm spitting my teammate at people. looooooool
The Inhale is a really handy move. It's a grab in the air. Just be sure to time it correctly because the lag is ridiculous! I don't have a wii right now so I cant test wether pressing up on the c-stick will spit them out. But back to Snake...