+1

[Pyronic_Star]

hmmmmmmmmmm, so we have 5 frames to whistle... and super armor starts on frame 2... and we didn't accommodate the fact that you can't do a b move immediately after being hit...

i'm doubtful you can whistle it if they do it correctly... but maybe i'm wrong... can someone verify what fino is saying

 

[DanGR]

The SA in the whistle comes out the same frame as the invincibility in his airdodge. If you could whistle you'd want to airdodge instead, which I don't at all think is possible. Frame data doesn't lie though...

Also, I just realized that a short hopped whistle out of shield is 2 frames faster than a grab, which in theory would be an awesome addition to Oli's out of shield game, methinks.

 

[Fino]

The SA in the whistle comes out the same frame as the invincibility in his airdodge. If you could whistle you'd want to airdodge instead, which I don't at all think is possible. Frame data doesn't lie though...

Also, I just realized that a short hopped whistle out of shield is 2 frames faster than a grab, which in theory would be an awesome addition to Oli's out of shield game, methinks.

Nope, if you aerial dodge, you land on a frame shoryuken hits at - aerial dodge + land = no invuln.
I tested that as well.

Pstar - using the frame by frame hack here is my result
Frame 1 - input luigi jab (in air on ground... pretty much everywhere)
Frame 2-8 - Nothing can happen - olimar gets hit by jab animation
Frame 7 and 8 - luigi starts to move back to standing position
Frame 9 - First available frame to buffer whistle
Frame 10 - First available frame to buffer shoryuken
Frame 11-18 - buffer time for each character
Frame 19 - Olimar out of hit lag - any whistle input between between frame 9 and now is input
Frame 20 - First frame of whistle - luigi brings arm low to shoryuken
Frame 21 - First frame of super armor - luigi still getting ready to shoryuken
Frame 22 - Jump sound of luig's upB
Frame 23 - Fist is literally through olimar, hitbox not out yet
Frame 24 - still coming
Frame 25 - 39 - SHORYUU-wait
Frame 40 - Luigi gravitates upwards, olimar does not
Frame 42 - Whistle beeps - luigi still going upwards
Frame 43 - first color of whistle appears
Stopped count - olimar continues to burn until just before luigi hits the ground - show that olirage by charging your c-stick on fire (hello)



~Fino

 

[RichBrown]

That's amazing. I can't wait to use that on Valdens next time I play him, we were playing friendlies at active gamers and he would get me to 45% or so, then upB me, it was terrible. The only thing luigi mains can do to counter this is to try to bait the whistle, but even then it still gives olimar a 50/50 shot of surviving what was previously considered inescapable. Nice work Fino!

 

[DanGR]

You tested out the air dodge too? Seems legit. I'll have to try this out I guess.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

does seem legit... and if it works... will be the first time i say nice work fino lmfao

 

[Fino]

Thanks ^^; I got a secret vid that's going to be loaded to youtube soon. I'll be posting it in hilts thread.
Hopefully I've finally de-bunked that nasty ghost pikmin glitch. Please dis-prove me if I'm wrong, though it looks pretty solid to me. Unfortunately I have to be a quality *****


~Fino

 

[BlackWaltzX]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=214789
Just putting this link here..

 

[Noa.]

The link's in the first post already.

Just saying...>.>

 

[BlackWaltzX]

I don't.. come on the message boards at all.

Just Saiyan.

 

[Llumys]

Quick note...

SH toss FF air dodge to grab is best done by not holding shield to air dodge, but just to tap it. Once you land, grab.

Buffer makes some stuff annoying. ):

 

[asob4]

hey guys! i just wanted to let you guys knoww that i love all the original peeps :D
hahaha


ahhh boredom how i loathe you


:3

 

[Llumys]

-sad-

):

^

 

[asob4]

eh you're original enough, i love you too llumys :D


just none of those new people >.>

 

[MASTERLINKX]

I lurk these boards 24/7

 

[Tin Man]

eh you're original enough, i love you too llumys :D


just none of those new people >.>

So I'm guessing you don't like me???

 

[Llumys]

:D!

Yay.

I'mma go write in my diary. (:

 

[asob4]

So I'm guessing you don't like me???

not at all

 

[Fino]

not at all

lma o

 

[Llumys]

I'm not sure why I laughed so hard. :X

 

[DanGR]

I'm just coming in here to confirm Fino's testing that you CAN whistle a perfect jab->upb from luigi. It's not a true combo.

 

[Pyronic_Star]

thank you fino for finding this and dan for verifying

so my next questions, is this practical? or do we have a 60th of a second to get this right type of thing?

 

[DanGR]

It's very practical. You've got exactly a 14 frame window to input the vB. Just do it right after you get hit by the jab (meaning anywhere between frame 9-23 of the jab->upb combo) and you'll whistle through it every time.

Frame 9-18 is your buffer window, and the actual whistle has to begin frame 19-23.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Awesome, good to know. The frame window looks a bit large so i may check it to make sure everything's being done right. Dan, did you test it with Big Lou? If you could, that'd be great.

 

[Noa.]

Can we just spam whistle and it'll work? Or does it take a certain timing?

 

[DanGR]

Awesome, good to know. The frame window looks a bit large so i may check it to make sure everything's being done right. Dan, did you test it with Big Lou? If you could, that'd be great.

The more testers we have, the better. xD I could have messed up. I just began using the hack yesterday. The window seemed really, really big to me too, but just keep in mind that most of it is the buffer window. Without it you'd have only a 4 frame window.

I'll test it out in some real matches next week.

Can we just spam whistle and it'll work? Or does it take a certain timing?

You can if you want, but you're leaving yourself open for other mixups.

edit: Guys, just remember that it wasn't me that initially tested this. It was Fino, and I checked my results with his to make sure I was doing everything right.

 

[Noa.]

Thanks Dan for the answer.

So with this recent development, how does the matchup change? 60:40 Luigi doesn't sound so unlikely now. Not being killed at 60 from a jab heavily affects the matchup. >.>

 

[Tin Man]

it still takes prediction and mind games, being hit by that is still very possible. Its probably easier for Luigi to land it then it is for Olimar to block it (like I said, strategy, mind games, and prediction)

 

[DanGR]

I just realized something. If Fino and I did it correctly, are we also able to whistle through jab->jab cancel-> jab?? And if that's true, that'd mean we could whistle through all of his jab mixups except a grab. ^______^

If these calculations I'm doing really quickly in my head are right, he can just punish a whistled jab after a jab cancel with an upb. :/ He can also just wait for you to whistle after a jab (in anticipation of you whistling an upb) and then upb after afterwards. That or just continuously jab->jab cancel->jab (you whistle the jab)-> jab (as a punishment) and start it all over again. It'll be hard DIing the jabs AND focusing on whistling at the right time. :/

So really, instead of a guaranteed shoryuken after a jab, he's got (very roughly- a guesstimate) about a 60-70% shot at it if he does his mixups well. :/ If he messes up about 2 times a game, that's only 2 upairs or upsmashes to punish him with. ~30% and a good chance to SDI any upair (if you choose to punish with that instead of an upsmash of course) is nothing.

If all else fails and you manage to DI out of his jabs, he's still got a **** zoning game in tornado and his awesome shield pressure game to force you to pivotgrab all the time and get you to the edge and get a jab on you then when you really have no options. Imo, realistically, I'd say the matchup didn't change much at all. Probably just 35:65 or so. It's still stupid. <_<

Well, I hope that wasn't too confusing. T___T I'm not even sure you can whistle through a jab cancelled jab. >_____>

 

[Fino]

I just realized something. If Fino and I did it correctly, are we also able to whistle through jab->jab cancel-> jab?? And if that's true, that'd mean we could whistle through all of his jab mixups except a grab. ^______^

If these calculations I'm doing really quickly in my head are right, he can just punish a whistled jab after a jab cancel with an upb. :/ He can also just wait for you to whistle after a jab (in anticipation of you whistling an upb) and then upb after afterwards. That or just continuously jab->jab cancel->jab (you whistle the jab)-> jab (as a punishment) and start it all over again. It'll be hard DIing the jabs AND focusing on whistling at the right time. :/

So really, instead of a guaranteed shoryuken after a jab, he's got (very roughly- a guesstimate) about a 60-70% shot at it if he does his mixups well. :/ If he messes up about 2 times a game, that's only 2 upairs or upsmashes to punish him with. ~30% and a good chance to SDI any upair (if you choose to punish with that instead of an upsmash of course) is nothing.

If all else fails and you manage to DI out of his jabs, he's still got a **** zoning game in tornado and his awesome shield pressure game to force you to pivotgrab all the time and get you to the edge and get a jab on you then when you really have no options. Imo, realistically, I'd say the matchup didn't change much at all. Probably just 35:65 or so. It's still stupid. <_<

Well, I hope that wasn't too confusing. T___T I'm not even sure you can whistle through a jab cancelled jab. >_____>

If he tries to anticipate the whistle and punish, he's not going to be able to punish with a shoryuken. Once you're on the ground with super armor he's going to have to shoryuken you during the 4 frame cool down of whistle (he also may have to walk forward a bit if you're in coins range). The hitbox of shoryuken comes out on frame six, so he'd actually have to input it while you're still in super armor (which isn't likely - the super armor frames on olimar's whistle is a huuuuuge anti-frame trap... they would have to analyze olimar frame data or have lots of exp in the MU.. or get lucky <.<). If he doesn't do it during this 4 frame window, your first option should be to shield, which will force him to time it in this window.
The best option for luigi at this point would be to mix-up with a c-stick or something better. The fact that shoryuken isn't guaranteed is going to make them a lot more cautious about using it (if they miss... well... lol).

I just lost my train of thought ;-;


~Fino

 

[Dyyne]

:D!

Yay.

I'mma go write in my diary. (:

You're a newcomer to me :/ Sorry.

 

[Fino]

You're a newcomer to me :/ Sorry.

Get wrecked llumys.

Dyyne knows all 8)


~Fino

 

[DanGR]

Fino, you do realize that people time things down to the frame fairly often, right? Zap jump? Sheik's boost smash? Punishing Falco's spot dodge? (2 frame window)

Also, we're assuming both players have a LOT of exp in the matchup. If they don't, they're not playing it right.

4 frames is nothing when you know it's coming, you've got a rainbow in your face telling you when to upb, and you've got practice timing it.

 

[PSIQuasi]

I've always had trouble understanding frame talk :/

 

[Tin Man]

meh its not the bad once you get more exposed to it, welcome to smash boards

 

[Llumys]

If you don't know what a frame is, read this:

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Frame

 

[TheMike]

I've always had trouble understanding frame talk :/

Frames are nice =D And welcome to SWF by the way.

 

[Fino]

Fino, you do realize that people time things down to the frame fairly often, right? Zap jump? Sheik's boost smash? Punishing Falco's spot dodge? (2 frame window)

Also, we're assuming both players have a LOT of exp in the matchup. If they don't, they're not playing it right.

4 frames is nothing when you know it's coming, you've got a rainbow in your face telling you when to upb, and you've got practice timing it.

Inputting a command and reacting to something are two different things dan <.<
So the question I ask it - how often are you punishing falco's spot dodge? (not very often)
Also, I was saying that whistle is an "anti"-frametrap as in, it looks like it lasts a lot longer than it does - thus is can be deceptive when trying to punish


~Fino

 

[Fino]

*double post*

So, I decided I'm going to go to phase 2. I think I heard tin man is going to be there, and maybe zori... anyone else? =D


~Fino

 

[RichBrown]

I got 5th yesterday outta like 40ish... didn't really beat anyone though. I can't seem to get the last hit anymore, I was super clutch with that from May-August, but now I'm faltering again. I'm getting sooooooo close to taking out so cal's elite, this is such a hard region >_<