1.10 Wii Fit Changes: First Buffs Ever?!

[Wicks]

Do you guys think Header's health increase is a buff?

For me it feels like a nerf. The move is less spammable now because it takes longer for the ball to respawn. I noticed this immediately.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Why would anyone want to spam Header?
It's good because you can actually hit the ball like it was intended, instead of just being hit by it.

 

[Macchiato]

HEADER CANCELS HEADER CANCELS

 

[Wicks]

Pre-patch it was really easy to fire Header from the ledge, regrab, and then fire another one. It was pretty safe if the opponent was at a distance. Now that the ball lasts longer it's not as easy.

 

[Chez G.]

Oh yeah, I used to love using Header from the ledge repeatedly sometimes. Keeps my opponent on their toes.

 

[lRasha]

Do we know exactly how big the Nair hitbox is now? It would be really good to have a before and after for comparison. I personally haven't noticed a change so I'm assuming the "new" hitbox isn't that much larger then the original.

Question (may be dumb, sorry!!) What will this larger hitbox on Nair help with? What does this change mean?

I'm assuming it'll make it better to approach with, like not having to be as close as before since the hitbox is larger (still probably have to be close but not AS close). Justy my guess. I know AceStarThe3rd approaches with Nair. Others might not be comfortable doing it.

 

[⑨ball]

Do you guys think Header's health increase is a buff?

For me it feels like a nerf. The move is less spammable now because it takes longer for the ball to respawn. I noticed this immediately.

Health is a double edged sword for sure, but it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more of a buff because we have reasonable access to cancel options now which means that WFT can exert herself on HER terms now without playing for 50/50s.

I don't know if any tried this yet with the ball lasting longer you can create a high damaging grab if you leave the ball in black and pummeled them with the ball near the active hitbox.
Which could be great if your opponent love doing normal get up on ledges

It's in the header guide under the fakeouts since you can also hit it and prompt a shield for a hitbox that doesn't become active until you hit it again.

For ledge getups try the stuff in the ledge coverage thread. Timing for all the header stuff is so easy now, you can guarantee coverage on reaction, not to mention dsmash coverage is REAL.


Oh, just so everyone knows buffs for header, breathing and sun seem to have been applied across the customs as well. Volatile breathing kills now and someone reported it having more super armor, I also see three changes in that section so steady might have got a slight weight increase(lol). More importantly weighted header had it's life expanded too and can now cancel fast enough to be hit if need be.

No new tech for it yet, but I'll definitely be in the lab.

 

[Mark The Page]

That's why you alternate. Header, SS, Header. I usually go full time on the first Header and then fire it right away the second time. Condition your opponent so they don't know when you'll actually release your projectiles, and get them all paranoid.

I've been playing For Glory nonstop these past two days, and these buffs are very, VERY noticeable. Like, damn. Healing is actually relevant. The Warrior is actually hitting like a real forward smash. Down smash is not only worth using, but racking up tons of kills... She's finally playing like she was supposed to, and I'm so glad.

No more playing against short characters with nothing but a dash attack and down attacks.

(As a side note, I could've sworn her forward and back throws did 10% each, but are now 11 and 9 respectively. Is it just me? Did I never notice that before?)

 

[⑨ball]

Fthrow does 10 and Bthrow does 9 but in real matches the first hit you use of any stock will always be something 105% strength because of weird scaling.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I always thought it was an intended "fresh bonus".

 

[⑨ball]

It might be. I mean you can never get that extra percent again no matter how unscaled your moves are. It also sounds better than reverse scaling or something.

 

[lRasha]

AceStarThe3rd made a video of pre-patch Wii Fit and post-patch Wii Fit. Just wanted to share.

 

[Chez G.]

AceStarThe3rd made a video of pre-patch Wii Fit and post-patch Wii Fit. Just wanted to share.

You know Ace must be ecstatic about Wii Fit's buffs!

About Header, you can use the back end of F-tilt to launch the ball real high after cancelling Header. Probably everyone knows this by now, but it's a neat trick I found.

 

[DRU192]

Whilst messing around in training mode I found some interesting stuff which I though you guys might like to hear:

Header ball + Nair does 22dmg consistently!

Getting this to work may not sound all that practical BUT when you factor in stages with platforms this becomes a legitimate way of racking up damage. When you shield cancel a header you can pass through platforms but the ball will not. This means you can leave it as a trap for later use. I've been using it a lot and its really been serving me well.

Buffed header ball has opened up so many cool new applications! hype!

 

[Linkshot]

Hey, do you folx know any of the specifics on the Deep Breathing changes? I've been trying to decipher what all of WFTs changed parameters are and I'm suspicious that all the [13]s might relate to Header or Deep Breathing. The [19] subset in particular is also interesting because [19][28] has a drastic change (32.0 -> 7.7~), but what seems to be one of its custom counterparts [19][106] got a very slight change (35.0 -> 34.9~)

And so that you don't have to scroll back to the OP, here's the param dump http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_wiifit.bin.txt

 

[⑨ball]

Hey, do you folx know any of the specifics on the Deep Breathing changes? I've been trying to decipher what all of WFTs changed parameters are and I'm suspicious that all the [13]s might relate to Header or Deep Breathing. The [19] subset in particular is also interesting because [19][28] has a drastic change (32.0 -> 7.7~), but what seems to be one of its custom counterparts [19][106] got a very slight change (35.0 -> 34.9~)

And so that you don't have to scroll back to the OP, here's the param dump http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/raw/param-diff-128-144/fighter_param_vl_wiifit.bin.txt

The only easily identifiable change on DB was the damage multiplier increase which is something around .30
However DB affects a number of other parameters like walk speed/acceleration, damage reduction, healing and comes with a penalty system and reuse system more accurately detailed insight into this is located in the human anatomy thread linked in the OP.

The 19 subset may actually be Deep Breathing as it seems all of them were seemingly affected and with the numbers as they are I'd imagine the 32.0 ->7.7 is in relation to Volatile Breathing which has a much more concentrated center blast radius being capable of kills at reasonable percents now. While 35.0 -> 34.9 might be Steady Breathing which seems unchanged.

Again, these are just guesses based on what's been noted.

Iirc you were the person who claimed header had a recovery reduction(not the cancel)? Can you verify?

 

[Linkshot]

I don't recall claiming that Header has reduced recovery frames, but I say a lot of things in a lot of places.

Anyway, I'm taking a much closer look at the numbers and comparing it to the thread you mentioned (honestly thought that was a joke post that linked to human anatomy wiki and a place to buy jeans, oops), and the only thing I can see that matches up is Deep Breathing's x1.16 damage modifier, expressed as [15][15] from 1.15999996662 to 1.20000004768. Would you consider that a safe confirmation?

 

[⑨ball]

Sounds good to me.

So I suppose [15] would be DB then if we're correct?

 

[Linkshot]

Yep, looks like that's at least part of DB

Slightly offtopic, I think 153 in the Unknown of the Human Anatomy chart is Ore Club Charge and 154 is Ore Club Swing. I don't wanna bump a 2-month old thread, haha.

 

[Lakuto]

⑨ball Could you give the link to the Header Guide you were talking about? I discovered some kinda glitch with the ball and I wanted to know all the things that have been found so far first :D.

 

[⑨ball]

A Strong Body is the Base of a Strong Mind: An Extensive Header Special Guide

There's also this thread :
That's Not A Chin Up: Ledge Option Data and Coverage

which while not header specific talks about some header tech so that you can do things like extend the hitbox of attacks. Pretty much everything's either better or easier now due to hitbox size increases, damage buffs, and KBG buffs all around.

The only thing I think that isn't listed in those two is the weird RCO lag WFT gets when sliding off ledges after using header. Haven't found a use for it yet.


edit: It's a little lengthy and certainly outdated now, so I'll probably be overhauling it soon.

 

[Lakuto]

Thanks! An update would be great since the Header Cancel is not that popular but SHOULD BE!

 

[⑨ball]

I will, but It'll get more popular regardless now that it's much easier to use.

SH Autocancel header was the same way.

Speaking of which I just mixed that and the tech you just discovered together. It's pretty fantastic.

For everyone else, Lakuto discovered that once you cancel and hit the canceled ball with header again it goes in whatever direction it was canceled. It's pretty neat as a mixup.

Even further canceling at height you can strike it with a SH header will give you a fast, downward angled shot that autocancels.

 

[Lakuto]

We definitely need a video to cover all that. It's quite hard to see/describe what is happening because the setup can be really complexe now with the ball and all that. Hopefully someone will someday.

And to talk about the 'glitch', I don't they will fix it. It was still there in 1.0.9, surely it was there from the beginning lol.

 

[lRasha]

Just a thought. Since Full Sun Salutation heals 2% now, it might make the opponent approach more knowing that you can just stand and throw out Full SS for healing. I want to say this is a good thing.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Was using her in doubles yesterday. I FREAKING LOVE HER.

 

[Rakurai]

Did the Deep Breathing slide glitch get fixed in this patch or an earlier one?

I only recently tested and noticed that it doesn't work anymore. I'm going to miss it in any case, since I liked using it as an alternative taunt.

 

[Linkshot]

Was goofing around in friendlies last night and oh my god??? she killed ZSS at 70% w/ Deep Breathing active? and it charges so much faster??? this is nuts, what a character she is now.

 

[Mark The Page]

Just a thought. Since Full Sun Salutation heals 2% now, it might make the opponent approach more knowing that you can just stand and throw out Full SS for healing. I want to say this is a good thing.

People on For Glory like to just sit at the opposite end of the stage while they get smacked with projectiles. They could approach. But they want to see if they can dodge them all instead. I don't understand, but now I get even more healing out of it.

 

[Kikaioh]

I'm a bit on the fence about the header ball lasting longer. After quite a bit of playing the past few days, there are some drawbacks I've been noticing. If the ball goes offscreen, it can be difficult to gauge how much time you have until you can generate a new ball. And since the ball is out longer, there are instances when I might want to use the ball but can't, because it's still out. The timing also makes it such that if you've hit a header from the ledge and try to follow with a sun salutation, the ball might actually get in the way, which makes giving pressure from the ledge more difficult.

It's nice that the changes open up more options for header cancels, but I've not been much a fan of them tbh (it feels like they take a bit too long to set up for my taste), though I guess I'll have to see if it's just a matter of getting better accustomed to the changes .

 

[⑨ball]

Did the Deep Breathing slide glitch get fixed in this patch or an earlier one?

I only recently tested and noticed that it doesn't work anymore. I'm going to miss it in any case, since I liked using it as an alternative taunt.

Earlier. Pretty much removed the utility of volatile breathing with that one, though it might have been slightly renewed with buffs.

 

[Mark The Page]

It's nice that the changes open up more options for header cancels, but I've not been much a fan of them tbh (it feels like they take a bit too long to set up for my taste), though I guess I'll have to see if it's just a matter of getting better accustomed to the changes .

Completely agree--especially with ledge games, the increased lifespan is causing big problems for me. Header cancelling seems like just another one of those advanced techniques that don't actually end up doing anything useful.

It'd be nice if you could, for example, launch the ball straight forward once your opponent realizes they were faked out and starts approaching, but you can't. Every tilt just sends it at some awkward upward angle. Her jab can make it bounce a bit, but it prevents WFT from launching any follow-up projectiles behind it and is way too slow to catch anyone off-guard. Not a useless technique, but her other, non-approaching options are all so much better.

 

[⑨ball]

Completely agree--especially with ledge games, the increased lifespan is causing big problems for me. Header cancelling seems like just another one of those advanced techniques that don't actually end up doing anything useful.

It'd be nice if you could, for example, launch the ball straight forward once your opponent realizes they were faked out and starts approaching, but you can't. Every tilt just sends it at some awkward upward angle. Her jab can make it bounce a bit, but it prevents WFT from launching any follow-up projectiles behind it and is way too slow to catch anyone off-guard. Not a useless technique, but her other, non-approaching options are all so much better.

Ledge play for WFT has a lot of weakspots and the "loss" of header spamming from the ledge is hardly even comparable to what we gain in neutral from health extension. Relying on it any heavier than recovery mixups and return coverage will get you punished by any competent opponent in the 20 frames you're forced to hold the ledge afterwards.

Both dsmash and the new tech Lakuto discovered launch the ball towards your opponent with the latter capable of mixups and autocanceling. Jab header does absolutely nothing to prevent follow-up projectiles as they have to deal with it no matter what. Jab header moving slow is what actually makes it amazing because you can follow behind it. Think Mario fast fireballs v Mario default fireballs. One hits you lightly and walls you out, the other sets up for follow ups.

 

[Kikaioh]

Huh, I actually felt like WFT's ledge play was really strong, because she had so many options to work with there (like header either from the edge or from a small distance away and above the edge if you timed out the header, SS, fair and uair), also because her excellent recovery made it so that mistakes at the edge weren't a huge issue (it's easier for her to recover from off-stage spikes than other characters I've played at least), also because her long roll from the edge and ability to grab/jab quickly on get-up gave her lots of quick mix-up options for fighting and maneuvering at the edge, and also because opponents seemed to be at a disadvantage if they tried to challenge her offstage, what with her 3 spikes, aerial range and recovery. With the header getting more health now though, the off-ledge game seems a bit more clunky I feel, what with the ball not being as quick to access and also potentially getting in the way of SS shots. TBH, it sort of feels like this update might be trying to discourage ledge play for WFT, which for me at least changes how I liked using her (the ledge doesn't seem quite as strong an option as it used to). Also, the header moving in a more horizontal direction when timed out feels like it takes away an option for lower-angled attacks that I liked to use in the past for mixup.

Again regarding the header cancel options, they still feel a bit slow and particular to pull off, which I guess makes it feel like they're a bit easier to read and less reliable than the previous ledge-play style that relied on the shorter-lived header, which I think was maybe a bit quicker and more variable for opponents to read as easily. I'll try more header cancels online though and see if it's just a matter of integrating them more into the game through practice, maybe I'm just feeling withdrawal from some of the mechanics having changed.

 

[Mark The Page]

I didn't catch the cancel -> down smash option. Now all I can think about is the lag between releasing a charged down smash and when it actually comes out.

YOU COULDN'T FIX THAT, SAKURAI? I'm sitting here trying to punish a roll, and Jigglypuff wakes up after a shield break and a misfired Timer before that smash connects.

 

[AncientCode42]

I like these buffs a lot. I would often get punished when trying to fight smaller characters. Not anymore. I also love the extra 2% healing factor Sun Salutation provides, this will make for a really good camping game. She seems smoother now and the kill potential feels much sooner than before. Overall it feels like a great buff and should help out quite a bit. We can also grab now. lol Now Wii Fit has consistent hitboxes.

Now DB also last long enough for some smash kills and other kills too. Before I could only get benefit out of killing with SS, now I have more options when going into DB. As someone who uses Header a lot, the fact it cancel lasting longer, we can now go for bare Header spikes. This is going to be great for offstage pressure and play for Header users.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Holy.....****. These buffs.

Time to stretch my calves again.

 

[⑨ball]

Holy.....****. These buffs.

Time to stretch my calves again.

Been thinking for a long time now that MK/WFT would make a good combination in singles since they cover each others bad MUs so well (aside from need camping Sheik). Somebody should probably look into their doubles synergy.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

What are WFT's most problematic MUs? Ours are ZSS and Yoshi. Some of top tier is annoying but doable such as Sheik, Luigi and Sonic. But we have one of the best Mus against Rosa and we beat Ness and so well vs Fox.

 

[Macchiato]

What are WFT's most problematic MUs? Ours are ZSS and Yoshi. Some of top tier is annoying but doable such as Sheik, Luigi and Sonic. But we have one of the best Mus against Rosa and we beat Ness and so well vs Fox.

WFT has no problem against ZSS at all due to her crouch. Yoshi is p doable imo. We struggle with Fox, Kirby, and Villager the most imo.