Official 1.1.6 Patch Notes/Patch Discussion

[Brickbuild101]

Me at the moment.

 

[Charoite]

You know what is funny, playing against bayo would be more boring , because they would fish for witch time kills, and because witch time cannot be spammed, they would camp until the move refresh, considering that her kill confirms got hit too.

 

[LancerStaff]

Bayonetta has the best counter in the game, no ifs, ands or buts. Consistent and high reward on top of less risk is more valuable then anything any other counter can offer. Any other counter needs to activate on something powerful for it to be worth anything, and if you get read you're eating that powerful attack you ment to counter to begin with.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

Prove to me post patch that aside from Corrin's early kills, the reward bayonetta can get off most witch times is less then the majority of the counter's in this game.

Bayo doesn't need to hit a powerful move to get high damage, neutral moves will suffice.\

In theory, a fresh Witch Time will usually net you slightly more reward than other counters, but only for a fresh Witch Time.
Not only do other character's counter (cut Shulk) not stale at all, their counters are automatic where Bayonetta has to perform her counter manually.
If Bayonetta mess up her counter, it will do 0%. And it is really easy mess up with less time to act.
Other character as long as they are in range, they only have to predict the move.

 

[Aife]

In theory, a fresh Witch Time will usually net you slightly more reward than other counters, but only for a fresh Witch Time.
Not only do other character's counter (cut Shulk) not stale at all, their counters are automatic where Bayonetta has to perform her counter manually.
If Bayonetta mess up her counter, it will do 0%. And it is really easy mess up with less time to act.
Other character as long as they are in range, they only have to predict the move.

So is your argument that her counter isn't as good as we think

Or that it isn't the best?
I think I asked you to clarify your argument earlier, this is what i meant.

Also while I understand mess ups happen, I don't think its so hard that its inconsistent to manage these things. The worst thing that could happen is accidental clanking.

Also is a -1 witch time really so bad you get no follow ups off it?

 

[DairunCates]

She will most likely be in the lower high tier spectrum at WORST now AKA still a good character. People seem to forget that a huge chunk of people who play this game have their character be a measly mid/low tier and still put in the work... I wonder how they feel when they see people complain about their character no longer being TOP top tier? put in the work mang, if you love Bayo you should just do your best to keep pushing her forwards.

As someone who mains a character that's been classified as low tier for most of the game and was even considered one of the bottom 5 at one point? I actually do think this is a bit excessive. There's no way every character is gonna get much closer in power than what we currently have without removing some of what makes them unique, and this patch seems to have genuinely removed (not muted) some of what made her character different. Could just be an overestimation, but the general gifs that have been posted don't look terribly good. Things don't seem to properly link at all. If that really is true, I think this patch was over-reactionary. Actually, if anything, it kinda annoys me that when the low tiers were complaining about sheik invalidating entire movesets with how good some of her moves were, the community didn't rally behind it at all and told everyone that the patches merely need to "buff everyone to her level" (which is, in my honest opinion, completely impossible). It feels like it genuinely matters more when the high tier players are inconvenienced over the low tier ones.

Mind you, like stated, this could all be way worse in theory than it actually is, but even with the "ridiculous sheik nerf" she was still able to link her combos, just not at every percent. This seems to legitimately remove her combo links. You could argue that diddy got the worst nerf, but at the same time, the pre-nerf diddy could essentially confirm a kill off a throw at 20%, had the banana peel tool to essentially guarantee that throw, had a strong neutral, and all this was safe on top of that. I think people tend to forget how bad vanilla diddy was that he got nerfed early and sheik got to spend nearly a year as powerful as she was.

Also, I kinda find this argument kinda weird anyway, because Bayonetta's worst MUs were legitimately some of the low tier cast who sometimes have a strong defensive gameplay. So, if anything, nerfing the character too hard also, in an indrect way, nerfs them as well. Keeping a character in the top end of the roster that has trouble dealing with low end characters actually potentially forces good players to have to pick up a secondary.

Just my two cents on the matter though. Doesn't particularly affect me directly, since I didn't even have Bayonetta as like a tertiary character (WFT kinda takes all my attention, honestly, and I'm not dropping that character until they just flat-out REMOVE her goofy hitboxes). I just genuinely find it weird that bayo gets a treatment this seemingly bad without the tourney domination diddy or sheik had, and was allowed to keep it for even less time.

Still... If people discover she still has an incredibly strong true combo game and kept some 02D's after all this, though. Ignore this post. It mostly just looks like she doesn't.

 

[cong]

It was a good day

 

[SoccerStar9001]

So is your argument that her counter isn't as good as we think

Or that it isn't the best?
I think I asked you to clarify your argument earlier, this is what i meant.

Also while I understand mess ups happen, I don't think its so hard that its inconsistent to manage these things. The worst thing that could happen is accidental clanking.

Also is a -1 witch time really so bad you get no follow ups off it?

I should take your offer and change it to her counter isn't as good as you think. Easier time for me.

 

[N0J0HN5]

The ride never ends, does it? Welcome to the official thread for version 1.1.6. This thread not only contains the patch notes, but also the discussion for it.

Because the only changes made in this patch are to Bayonetta, we do not feel it is necessary to have a separate thread for patch notes and patch discussion. The changes to Bayonetta will be catalogued here.

Previous Patch Notes:
1.1.5 - March Update
1.1.4 - February Update
1.1.3 - December Update

Character | Last (CDT) | Changes | Progress
Bayonetta | 02:00|

• Dtilt:
  • Hitbox Size: 3.5 -> 2.8
  • FAF: 36F -> 38F
• Fair:
  • First Hit Damage: 3.8 -> 3
  • Second Hit Damage: 2.8% -> 2.2%
  • Third Hit:
    • KBG: 82 -> 68
    • Autocancel Frame: 32> -> 33>
    • FAF: 36 -> 37
• Dair Landing Hit KBG: 140 -> 135
• After Burner Kick:
  • Upwards Kick:
    • All Hitboxes SDI Multiplier: 1 -> 2
    • Early Hit KBG: 40 -> 50
    • Normal Hit KBG: 30 -> 38
    • Late Hit KBG: 100 -> 112
  • Divekick:
    • Damage: 8% -> 6.5%
    • Angle: 80° -> 60°
    • Hitbox Size: 6.5 -> 4.5
    • SDI Multiplier: 1 -> 2
• Witch Twist:
  • All Hitboxes SDI Multiplier: 1 -> 2
  • Early Middle Hit:
    • Upper Hitbox:
      • KBG: 100 -> 97
      • WKB: 160 -> 140
      • Hitbox Y Position: 24 -> 21
    • Both Hitbox Sizes: 8 -> 7
  • Middle Middle Hit:
    • Upper Hitbox Y Position: 24 -> 21
    • Both Hitbox Sizes: 8 -> 7
  • Late Middle Hit:
    • Upper Hitbox Y Position: 24 -> 21
    • Lower Hitbox WKB: 160 -> 135
    • Both Hitbox Sizes: 8 -> 7
  • Last Hit (First Use):
    • KBG: 105 -> 80
    • BKB: 50 -> 55
    • Hitbox Size: 9 -> 8.5
    • Hitbox Y Position: 20 -> 19
  • Last Hit (Second Use):
    • KBG: 30 -> 50
    • Hitbox Size: 9 -> 8.5
    • Hitbox Y Position: 20 -> 19

| 90%

ONLY ****ING BAYONETTA?

 

[blackghost]

Agreed, it all breaks down to these questions. Both Sheik and Diddy have proven to still be viable characters, despite the nerfs they received. Whether the same will be applied to Bayonetta, we'll know soon enough.

but what is one thing those character have in common?
extremely good frame data and a killer almost sufficating neutrual game.
bayo has neither.

 

[PeeDeeZee]

If Bayonetta mess up her counter, it will do 0%. And it is really easy mess up with less time to act.

This statement is laughably ridiculous. If you can't hit a character that's in slow-mo stun, it's definitely not the move's fault. Virtually every other kill confirm in the game requires much much much tighter reaction time.

Bayonetta has (and retains) the best counter in the game.

 

[Ulk]

https://vid.me/Sxk9

this is how the UpB looks like with SDi set to 2

... Maybe not that bad. It looks like this move may still leave room for an additional ABK after a short jump. Maybe even a DABK after a short jump, though I doubt it would be hard to dodge. On the other hand, it doesn't look too good for the double Witch Twist (I'm talking about one Witch Twists immediately after another Witch Twist). That one is probably dead, but that was to be expected. That's just guessing work, though. Time will tell.

 

[Stylo Ren]

This whole thread has become really cancerous and destructive. Why are we letting this happen. One page of actual patch notes, 7 pages of arguing

 

[Pancracio17]

People forget witch time was stupid good because it was paired with a character that could 0-death you with the proper setup. She cant do that anymore plus its been nerfrd since release. Its still really good, maybe even the best, but its reward was neutered a ton.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I also want to point out that that video of DK SDI'ing Witch Twist is somewhat misleading. Yes, you can SDI it like that, but that's assuming you start SDI'ing right as the move starts, like in the video. In a real game, you'll not be able to react until at least 13 frames after the move has started (13 frames is standard human reaction time), by which point you are already 2 or 3 loops into the move. This video shows you that you can SDI Witch Twist in this way, but only if you are expecting it.

That said, I still think mashing random SDI will get you out of any of her aerial specials, so yeah.

 

[conTAgi0n]

For those of you that are so sure that Bayonetta will still be a top/high tier character, I think that confidence is unwarranted.

Her neutral game was never exactly great, and arguably it wasn't even particularly good. The main thing that made her neutral work was the extreme threat of her advantage state. As we can see from both theory and the successful counterplay that has been practiced against her, Bayonetta is already weak in neutral against shields and extremely patient play. This is one possible explanation for why Bayonetta's dominance seemed to drop off at the top level.

To oversimplify things somewhat, the primary determinant of Bayonetta's competitive viability will be the degree to which her neutral is propped up by her advantage state. In 1.1.5 her advantage state was insane, which made her neutral very threatening, and also meant she only needed to win in neutral 1-3 times per stock in the hands of a competent Bayonetta.

What is obvious is that Bayonetta's advantage state will be much worse post patch. 0 death combos at least seem to be history. The big increase to SDI multipliers on witch twist, the increased KBG on ABK, and the much less handy angle on dABK could easily add up to Bayonetta losing either the strength or the reliability of her damage output off combos, or both even.

(As an aside, I am highly skeptical when people say, oh yeah you can technically SDI out of witch twist now but it's not practical in a real match. Unless it is an extreme technical requirement or something, which I don't see how it could be, good players will learn to do this.)

Her ability to convert from neutral to advantage state was also nerfed directly in three important moves. dtilt got a nerf in range and FAF, dABK got a really important reduction in hitbox size, and witch twist lost some range.

So what we have is a character whose neutral relied on the threat of an overwhelming advantage state, who got moderate nerfs directly to her neutral, and big nerfs to the advantage state that made her neutral work in the first place. Her moves are good enough that she won't become a totally dysfunctional character. But if she struggles against shield, isn't terrific in neutral, AND turns out not to have a totally dominant advantage state anymore, then it is conceivable that she won't be a solid high tier. Sure, she will still have some great strengths and some top tier moves, but the same can be said about many characters floating around the high-mid to low-high tier range.



It is true that so far the balance team has shown a lot of restraint and good decision making (at least when it comes to nerfing top tiers). Mostly they did this by making changes incrementally and waiting. However the outcry over Bayonetta was unprecedented, and it is very possible that the team is disbanding soon (if they haven't already). For both of these reasons, waiting and watching and making changes incrementally may not have been an option for them this time around. If they only had one last patch to fix Bayonetta with, they may have erred on the side of over-nerfing to make sure that she wasn't still creating problems.


I want to reiterate that I am absolutely not claiming Bayonetta is definitely going to be relegated to mid tier hell. But based on what we do and don't know about the changes, I don't see how anyone can be so confident that Bayonetta is going to remain a high/top tier metagame threat.

 

[CaP_Omega]

I should take your offer and change it to her counter isn't as good as you think. Easier time for me.

So your original argument was that it's not the best in the game. Are you saying that it must be ore else? Because that's very telling. If she still has combos (which she does, there's proof all over this thread), and if she still has the best counter in the game, what's to argue about? She also has a way better neutral and edge guarding game than people think. All you have to do is transfer whatever amount of effort it takes into comboing your opponent to keeping them in the air. If you can do that with any other character you shouldn't have much trouble doing it with Bayonetta at all. And if you do, you can just punish them with Witch Time and, viola, downward ABK -> D-air.

 

[Tocaraca2]

I had no idea that this patch was this soon, and I'm glad that they nerfed her, because as ZeRo said, she is toxic.

 

[Charoite]

I also want to point out that that video of DK SDI'ing Witch Twist is somewhat misleading. Yes, you can SDI it like that, but that's assuming you start SDI'ing right as the move starts, like in the video. In a real game, you'll not be able to react until at least 13 frames after the move has started (13 frames is standard human reaction time), by which point you are already 2 or 3 loops into the move. This video shows you that you can SDI Witch Twist in this way, but only if you are expecting it.

That said, I still think mashing random SDI will get you out of any of her aerial specials, so yeah.

The move is bayo only Oos option, which makes the move really predictable because now dive kick is useless as a combo starter so she at close quarters only has Up B as a combo starter and because the range was nerfed too, SDI the move would more common because the move itself will be used more.

 

[GeneralLedge]

RE: Twist: Even worst-case scenario with Witch Twist, I don't see DK capable of doing anything after having broken out of the move. He's in the air now, and Bayo has a chance (albeit short) to punish the landing, or predict how and follow-up before landing herself. Bayo has to think now, meaning we'll see more creative combos. Meaning hype play in the time to come.

Additionally, having flown so far away at 0 (well, 3)%, this sort of break-out would be pretty unreliable at later percents (unless you like playin' yourself), or higher up the screen. We need more hands-on examples of every direction an opponent can SDI out of the move, and even if there's a "safe" one that everyone uses, a Bayo player could, again, -think- about how to follow this up, or use Witch Twist closer to the edge of the stage where SDIing away means still being in disadvantage.

RE: Boost Kick, if your opponent needs to air dodge to avoid a follow-up, that's still a good thing. Think and watch and respond to whether your opponent airdodges or not, and follow-up accordingly.

I don't see a broken character at all, I see one where the player has to start using their head and reading their opponents options. Like a fighting game or something.

 

[Charoite]

RE: Twist: Even worst-case scenario with Witch Twist, I don't see DK capable of doing anything after having broken out of the move. He's in the air now, and Bayo has a chance (albeit short) to punish the landing, or predict how and follow-up before landing herself. Bayo has to think now, meaning we'll see more creative combos. Meaning hype play in the time to come.

Additionally, having flown so far away at 0 (well, 3)%, this sort of break-out would be pretty unreliable at later percents (unless you like playin' yourself), or higher up the screen. We need more hands-on examples of every direction an opponent can SDI out of the move, and even if there's a "safe" one that everyone uses, a Bayo player could, again, -think- about how to follow this up, or use Witch Twist closer to the edge of the stage where SDIing away means still being in disadvantage.

RE: Boost Kick, if your opponent needs to air dodge to avoid a follow-up, that's still a good thing. Think and watch and respond to whether your opponent airdodges or not, and follow-up accordingly.

I don't see a broken character at all, I see one where the player has to start using their head and reading their opponents options. Like a fighting game or something.

This is DK, now what about fast characters like , with good aerials with good combo breaking moves, the bayo wouldnt go to extend the cobo because dive kick and 2 up-B are more DI able, and she would still get the landing lag of her specials, is simply not worth.

 

[Stylo Ren]

This thread is seriously awful how are we still letting this happen

 

[UberMadman]

I had no idea that this patch was this soon, and I'm glad that they nerfed her, because as ZeRo said, she is toxic.

No, she wasn't toxic, she was just questionably unbalanced. The real toxicity came from immediate attempted bans, player shaming, and insults that were flung both ways in debate. Thankfully that should all be over so we can all go back to complaining about Mewtwo's fair or something dumb like that.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

WHat change to any of those characters fundamentally destroyed thier playstyle? shes a combo character with no combos. even when luigi was nerfed he received compensation.

Omg we can't say she has no combos with the patch not out yet

 

[Charoite]

https://vid.me/UBoA lol now this is a gutted move, what is the point of the move now

 

[UberMadman]

https://vid.me/UBoA lol now this is a gutted move, what is the point of the move now

Yes, truly in the 1/4 speed, training-mode only meta, this move will now be rendered completely useless.

 

[GeneralLedge]

This is DK, now what about fast characters like , with good aerials with good combo breaking moves, the bayo wouldnt go to extend the cobo because dive kick and 2 up-B are more DI able, and she would still get the landing lag of her specials, is simply not worth.

Idk, let's wait and see. If an opponent wants to immediately fast-fall into a follow-up, they put themself in the position for a boost-kick to the face. That's one read by Bayo. If they fast-fall away to the ground and follow-up with a dash, Bayo can shield or spot-dodge or boost-kick from the floor. That's two reads by Bayo. If they want to fall onto her from above and follow up with a Nair or spike, Bayo may or may not have time to air dodge, or quickly jump 2 into WT2. That's three reads by Bayo.

If Bayo cannot follow-up in scenario 2, she can opt to boost-kick away and try to avoid getting hit. If Bayo cannot follow-up in scenario 3, idk. Hope that isn't the case.


Either way, are you implying she shouldn't have to deal with the landing lag unique to her, the one that only she has when she uses too many consecutive aerials in a row? The thing she never had to worry about before, but the devs specifically put in the game and had some intent that it took a part of the game as a whole?

 

[Xermo]

This thread is seriously awful how are we still letting this happen

You're not contributing anything of worth yourself.

It'll be interesting to see all the bad players drop the character and how the good/dedicated players will push her meta forward tbh.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Yes, truly in the 1/4 speed, training-mode only meta, this move will now be rendered completely useless.

That's insinuating people won't be SDIing like crazy after the initial Witch Twist in the familiar string in order to replicate this exact happenstance.

If they're not getting the SDI in the first WT, they're certainly getting it there.

 

[blackghost]

Omg we can't say she has no combos with the patch not out yet

bayo mains can be fairly certain. cant name a single bayo combo that doesnt use dabk, WT, or Fair1. because all of those moves were nerfed. heavily nerfed. everything that used to work now doesnt. no other patch did that to a character. i'm open to being proved wrong.

 

[Vipermoon]

Not that it matters but Marth's Counter Attack sword trail implies a very wide arc of hitboxes but you actually only get them on frames 5-7 (down from the 5-11 it has always been before). Like Marth's entire moveset, it's just a bunch of sword trail pizzazz...no meat to it.

 

[S_B]

Getting a fresh Witch Time near the ledge is significantly harder than you think.

I'd say that this is actually the easiest, safest place to land witch time, depending upon your opponent.

Most characters, when off the ledge, can be safely WTed as their recoveries produce a hitbox. Then, you can either Dair spike them or land that Dsmash to spike them.

You'll see players using counters on any character with a hitbox on recovery (Ness is a classic example). In Bayo's case, it may not work against characters with multihit recoveries, but even then, chasing someone off the ledge and baiting them into attacking you as they try to return is still a great way to land a WT.

That said, I'm fine with it being the best counter in the game if Bayo loses the ability to 0-death people. Her shtick should be to try to rack damage before baiting out the WT for the KO.

 

[CaP_Omega]

This thread is seriously awful how are we still letting this happen

Better let people say what they want to say than censor opinions, I say. No doubt, there is a more suited place to discuss some aforementioned topics, but it's probably promoting discussion more than anything at this point (considering we are on a patch board and there is a common link between lack of censorship and order).

https://vid.me/UBoA lol now this is a gutted move, what is the point of the move now

I don't think you're going to find yourself in this situation very much if at all anyway. This kinda just looks like a funny gag.

 

[probationsmack]

Question about other potential changes. Usually landing lag reductions had to be manually checked in the past as they were stored outside of character parameter files. Can we still potentially see landing lag changes for other characters or are we sure its a 60 mb patch for one character and a few stage elements?

 

[UberMadman]

That's insinuating people won't be SDIing like crazy after the initial Witch Twist in the familiar string in order to replicate this exact happenstance.

If they're not getting the SDI in the first WT, they're certainly getting it there.

Yeah but this video is still showing levels of SDI that are essentially impossible in real time. Technically at frame perfect levels SDI like this is possible in other Smash games, but you don't see people exactly applying it on a regular basis.

 

[Charoite]

Idk,

Either way, are you implying she shouldn't have to deal with the landing lag unique to her, the one that only she has when she uses too many consecutive aerials in a row? The thing she never had to worry about before, but the devs specifically put in the game and had some intent that it took a part of the game as a whole?

Why the bayo would go for that if the move is easily SDI able, and does poor damage, and she would need to use Witch time to cut her landing lag which does makes WT itself worse, because she needs the move fresh to kill outside of a read, is better to play the bait and punish game, that go for a combo, but that what is not bayo design, is like if you nerfed prepatch kill confirms and 50/50 but actually nerf her frame data too.

 

[Oatha]

https://vid.me/UBoA lol now this is a gutted move, what is the point of the move now

I'm going to need the name of that song, so I can add it to my game later.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

bayo mains can be fairly certain. cant name a single bayo combo that doesnt use dabk, WT, or Fair1. because all of those moves were nerfed. heavily nerfed. everything that used to work now doesnt. no other patch did that to a character. i'm open to being proved wrong.

Bayonetta probably has some of the greatest potential, so there are probabanly more combos. Don't say she has none when top players can't play the patch

 

[Mr. Johan]

Yeah but this video is still showing levels of SDI that are essentially impossible in real time. Technically at frame perfect levels SDI like this is possible in other Smash games, but you don't see people exactly applying it on a regular basis.

With the SDI multiplier increase, there's incentive to start toggling that control stick now. Before, SDI was so weak that unless your fingers can keep up, it was just better to DI regularly and get ready for what comes after.

Now, there's a chance people can SDI through the subsequent string hits, and meet Bayonetta on the way down. SDIing Witch Twist might be risking landing traps because of how high it sends you up, but there's no risk here with upwards ABK. People are going to learn how to cleave through the kick like that.

 

[Nathanael Solomon]

Actually very impressed. Proud of ya big N, you done good.