1.0.4/1.05. Patch Notes w/ KO Percentages

[Uffe]

ATTENTION!!

Ness received a few buffs as well as nerfs. Here is what has been changed for the better and for worse:

Red = pre-Patch
Green = Buff
Yellow = Nerf

Dash Attack - 208% 207%
Up Smash Behind – 125% 115% CH
Down Smash – 158% 160% UC; 112% 113% CH
Down Smash Front – 127% 128% CH
Down Throw – 340% 338%

PK Thunder - 340% 341%
PK Thunder 2 – 44% 45% SwS; 107% 108% SrS (Because a gimmicky attack needed to be nerfed, am I right?)
PK Flash – 58% 56% SrS

This was created in mind to compare Ness of today to tomorrows updated Ness, if he's given any buffs or nerfs. Keep in mind that this was all done without the opponent DIing and without rage being in effect. Two reasons: I have nobody to help me, and I don't find it all that necessary because this is specifically for patch notes and not match ups against other characters to see how early they die in a match. If you're truly worried about Ness after the update, then you shouldn't overlook this. The areas where it's N/A, that's either because they don't kill or because I had nobody to help me figure out that information. I should mention that this was all done on Mario on Final Destination at center stage.

Spoiler: Key

CH – Charged
UC – Uncharged
CHT – Charged Tipper
UCHT – Uncharged Tipper
SwS – Sweetspot
SrS - Sourspot
◄► - Normal Hit
▲ - Upward Hit
▼ - Downward Hit
> - From and to percent
- - Added percent
N/A – Not Applicable

Spoiler: Total Percent Damage

Dash Attack - 4-2-4% = 10 % / 4 > 6 > 10%
Jab - 2-2-4%

Up Tilt - 7%
Forward Tilt - 9% ◄►, 10% ▲▼
Down Tilt - 4% SwS, 2% SrS

Up Smash - 9% UC; 12% CH
Up Smash Behind - 13% UC; 18% CH
Forward Smash - 18% UC; 25% CH, 22% UCHT; 30% CHT
Down Smash - 12% UC; 16% CH
Down Smash Front - 12% UC; 16% CH

Up Air - 13%
Forward Air - 7%
Back Air - 15% SwS; 8% SrS
Neutral Air - 11% SwS; 7% SrS
Down Air - 12% SwS; 10% SrS

Up Throw - 10%
Forward Throw - 11%
Back Throw - 11%
Down Throw - 7%

PK Thunder - 8%
PK Thunder Tail - +1%
PK Thunder 2 - 25% Close; 21% Far
PK Fire - +2%
PK Flash - 37% CH

Spoiler: KO Percent Damage

Dash Attack - 208% 207%
Jab – N/A
Up Tilt – 155%
Forward Tilt – 215% ◄►, 196% ▲▼
Down Tilt – N/A

Up Smash – 193% UC; 140% CH
Up Smash Near Behind – 192% UC;140% CH
Up Smash Behind – 166% UC; 125% CH
Forward Smash – 111% UC; 86% UCHT, 70% CH; 48% CHT
Down Smash – 158% UC; 112% CH
Down Smash Front – 178% UC; 127% CH

Up Air – 127%
Forward Air - 230%
Back Air – 127% SwS; 256% SrS
Neutral Air - 170%
Down Air – 291% SwS; 277% SrS, Off Stage N/A

Up Throw – 216%
Forward Throw – 941%
Back Throw – 127%
Down Throw – 340%

PK Thunder - 340%
PK Thunder Tail – N/A
PK Thunder 2 – 44% SwS; 107% SrS
PK Fire – N/A
PK Flash – 56% SwS; 58% SrS

 

[PKBeam]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-smash-4-3ds-1-0-4-frame-and-hitbox-data.383724/
for more accurate damage %
eg. Dash attack is 4 -> 2 -> 4, and 7 -> 2 -> 4 on aerial targets

 

[Uffe]

My gosh! That's really complex. I'm not taking standalone damage into account, just total damage as that's the final connection with specific attacks. I'm currently working on another for a few Samus mains. Not as complex as yours, but still.

 

[PKBeam]

wii u and 3ds have different kill%s right?

 

[XCounter]

Ness's percentages are exactly the same for all of his moves.

As far as knockback goes, you guys can test that lol

 

[Meccs]

thank you for that. I'll see what I can test of our KO moves before work.

edit: I could be wrong but did they make Dair quicker? Probably just placebo it's still got a bad hitbox and end lag but it felt like it had a little bit less startup.

and it doesn't say who these were tested on, Mario at the middle of FD?

It seems like PK Fire doesn't get people in the middle of it as much so it's really easy to get out of. Like it hits with the outside of it instead of the middle now.

 

[Tikao]

Ness' damage output is the same for every move (haven't tested custom specials)
pkt2 seems to KO at the same percentages

bthrow kill percentages (tested on a lvl9 CPU on fd in training mode without rage) :
92% (near the edge) 119% (middle) 143% (over the entire stage)
i haven't tested this before the update and the bthrow KO-% thread used DI, so you can't compare them

uair (same cpu, trainingsmode no rage, fd)
117% (middle of the stage, on the ground)

bair (same stuff + on the ground)
86% (near the edge) 118% (middle) 144% (over the entire stage)

fair (and nair?) seem to have more landing lag, but that might be just my imagination
dair seems the same to me

fsmash reflection makes the projectile deal twice the damage (not sure how it was before) and makes the "smash" sound (the one you hear when you hit characters with)

down-b healing
pika neutral b deals 4% (far way), 6% (next to pika) , always heals 8%
samus fully charged neutral-b deals 25%, heals 30%
lucario fully charged neutral-b (with lucario having 0%) deals 11%, heals 18%
heal% unchanged?
still able to cancel down-b into spotdodge/jump, if you absorb something

up-b double recovery (right after crashing into a wall) still in the game

 

[XCounter]

I'm not a frame guy so I don't know the specifics, but by eye it doesn't look faster to me.

 

[Meccs]

yeah probably just placebo. PK Fire is definitely worse tho

 

[Tikao]

it deals the same damage as before, and testing its reliability against CPUs is not the best

 

[Meccs]

Well damage wise yeah. But before when it would get people pretty much in the 'middle' of the flame pillar regardless of how close they were, it seems to not work as well on grounded opponents who are farther away.

If I'm wrong that's great, I hope I am, but I really think it's worse in that regard. I tried it on DK and it he got trapped no matter the distance, which is the same as pre patch, but on Mario, Kirby, and then Ike for size, they just sort of got hit with the outside of it for 2-3 weak next-to-no hitstun hits.
Its like the move was only giving 2-3 light hits which pushed them away instead of trapping them. This just when they were grounded at not close range. Like if they fall onto the bolt or it's aerialed at them it still traps as usual.

 

[Tikao]

maybe the first hit of the bolt (that creates the fire pillar) got increased knockback, maybe the pillar hitboxes ot increased kb, but all hitboxes are still there

 

[Meccs]

Can we confirm backthow was not nerfed? It didn't seem any different to me but there are also people saying otherwise. I didn't have enough time to test it that much this morning.

It was killing Mario (Ness at 0%) from the middle of FD at 131% like the OP says, but I just assumed those (Mario, middle of FD) were the parameters.

I killed a user-controlled Kirby off the top-left at 114% on Omega Pac-Man while standing at the right-side ledge, which seems about right.

 

[Earthbound360]

Well damage wise yeah. But before when it would get people pretty much in the 'middle' of the flame pillar regardless of how close they were, it seems to not work as well on grounded opponents who are farther away.

If I'm wrong that's great, I hope I am, but I really think it's worse in that regard. I tried it on DK and it he got trapped no matter the distance, which is the same as pre patch, but on Mario, Kirby, and then Ike for size, they just sort of got hit with the outside of it for 2-3 weak next-to-no hitstun hits.
Its like the move was only giving 2-3 light hits which pushed them away instead of trapping them. This just when they were grounded at not close range. Like if they fall onto the bolt or it's aerialed at them it still traps as usual.

It's always done this. PK Fire's trapping ability usually puts people on the side, and only centers them if you got them doing something like dashing into it or spot dodging into it.

I haven't tested it yet, but I'll try to tonight.

 

[Meccs]

Huh guess I'm just dumb and never noticed that somehow. That's good then.

 

[Earthbound360]

It's also character dependent. Wario and Jigglypuff seem to always gravitate towards the edge of the fire on the first hit.
Other characters, usually bigger ones, have a harder time getting out.

 

[Tikao]

if somebody still hasn't updated their ssb4, could he/she test Ness' bthrow kill percentages with these parameters? :

on a lvl9 cpu (in 'stop' mode), on fd (once on the edge, once exactly at the middle and once over the entire stage)
as there is no rage in trainings mode, you don't have to heal yourself everytime you set the enemy %

those are the percentages after the patch (using these paramters) :
92% (near the edge) 119% (middle) 143% (over the entire stage)

 

[Meccs]

http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/#post-18589081
Noa made a huge table of every character in each spot on FD in 1.05 so somebody can just test a couple characters the same way he did to see if it adds up.

 

[Tikao]

yep, but this includes DI, so you need a 2. player for that

 

[Uffe]

My game isn't updated. I'm really hoping Ness wasn't touched. It was posted earlier that Ness' nair and fair have more landing lag, as if that was necessary. PKF better be the same as it was, because that attack was already bad from the get go. No point changing that. How about his d-throw > fair? Does that still work or was that nerfed as well?

 

[Uffe]

if somebody still hasn't updated their ssb4, could he/she test Ness' bthrow kill percentages with these parameters? :

on a lvl9 cpu (in 'stop' mode), on fd (once on the edge, once exactly at the middle and once over the entire stage)
as there is no rage in trainings mode, you don't have to heal yourself everytime you set the enemy %

those are the percentages after the patch (using these paramters) :
92% (near the edge) 119% (middle) 143% (over the entire stage)

Who did you kill here? Because none of those percents killed without the opponent using DI. So if you used someone with DI and those percents killed, then Ness got a buff in his b-throw. Even with rage, no kills. Which is weird. Does rage not work in Training Mode?

 

[Furil]

I only managed to play for an hour this morning, but I didn't really notice any standout changes.
I think that's good, because if the change was so minimal that it's barley noticeable when playing then it shouldn't make a big deal.

There are a few things I feel "might" be different, but it's probably just because I never paid much attention before.
Back throw may be slightly weaker. My friend and I play Robin vs Ness all the time, and I noticed it took me until %150+ to kill from center of Smashville now.. I don't remember what it took before, so that's not really helpful information...
I also feel dair may be different, because I have never managed to spike a person before, but I took 3 stocks from it today. (It could be because I never really used it before, though)

I'm hoping Ness made it through this update okay

 

[Funen1]

Yes @ Uffe , Training Mode does not incude Rage or move staling in its damage/knockback calculations - the "base" numbers, if you will.

@ Tikao , I'm curious actually, are we certain that CPUs are able to DI a given move optimally? I always preferred to stick with setting the CPU to "Control" (using the Gamepad as my second controller) because I wasn't sure if they could.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah PK Fire has not always easily trapped opponents in it. Idk if it's changed in the patch.

The closer you land PK Fire, the more centered it'll be on oppoenents. At farther lengths it's more likely to ignite on the edge of the hurtbox and they have an easier time escaping.

Also if a character extends their hurtbox with a move and you hit them with pk fire, they can usually get out more easily. For example, if marth whiffs an fsmash and you hit his hand with pk Fire, he will have an easier time getting out.

How easy it is for characters to get out is character Dependent Haha.

And if you want to use the bthrow Data it's very easy to test it by yourself. You just need two controllers. I outline in the beginning how to correctly DI the throw.

However keep in mind that DI might have changed in the patch.

 

[Meccs]

I think the most important takeaway is:
Ness is still a great, viable character. If there are changes I doubt it's anything major as people most likely would have noticed them by now. I didnt test Fair and Nair's landing lag but it didnt stick out to me when I used them and Fair strings seemed to be business as usual at least.

 

[Tikao]

i don't know if and how good CPUs DI, but they always DI the same, so it is constant (never killed 1% earlier and always killed at the listed kill percentages), therefore you should be able to compare both versions with that.
I used CPU Ness for these tests.

i posted nair and fair MIGHT have slightly more landing lag, but it just felt like that for me, might be my imagination

 

[Uffe]

Yes @ Uffe , Training Mode does not incude Rage or move staling in its damage/knockback calculations - the "base" numbers, if you will.

@ Tikao , I'm curious actually, are we certain that CPUs are able to DI a given move optimally? I always preferred to stick with setting the CPU to "Control" (using the Gamepad as my second controller) because I wasn't sure if they could.

It's effecting mine. I went to Final Destination with Mario, center stage, at 126% and back threw him. He didn't die. I then made both Ness and Mario have 126% and did the exact same thing, except Mario died. So if you're using the Wii U, then maybe rage has no effect, but on the 3DS it sure does.

 

[Luco]

Okay so after reading this I tested Nair and Fair. Nair is just plainly untrue, if there's a change there it's very minimal. Fair is weird. If you land on the ground during and after it then it's exactly the same. If you land right as Fair ends then you seem to get a bit of endlag. Not sure if this was present pre-patch.

 

[Uffe]

Okay so after reading this I tested Nair and Fair. Nair is just plainly untrue, if there's a change there it's very minimal. Fair is weird. If you land on the ground during and after it then it's exactly the same. If you land right as Fair ends then you seem to get a bit of endlag. Not sure if this was present pre-patch.

I haven't updated my game yet, so I will say that it doesn't sound like Ness' fair changed. The animation of his fair ends with him doing a front flip. When this happens, no lag is present. However, if you do a SH > fair and land on the ground with him flipping into the ground, then there is ending lag.

 

[blazegoat]

i don't know if its just me but something seems kinda off on his dthrow. is this the right place to put this? i know the thread is ko percentages but idk

 

[Tikao]

the screen is shaking while you perform dthrow, makes it look stronger, but dthrow is unchanged

 

[blazegoat]

the screen is shaking while you perform dthrow, makes it look stronger, but dthrow is unchanged

ohhhh

 

[an1bal]

I just killed with an utilt, I dont think ive seen that one happen before like this.

 

[Tikao]

So at the end of the day we got no big nerfs, while a lot of other good characters got nerfed.
I'm waiting for the data mining now, but we still live regardless.

Today was a good day to be a Ness main.

 

[Uffe]

I feel like Ness didn't really need any nerfs, but unless you were Mewtwo, no one character was safe. I'm hoping when Lucas comes out, that we don't get nerfed any further. A lot of things for Ness today seems almost unnoticeable and I was still able to destroy some people with him.

 

[ReturningFall]

First off, There seems to be three 1.0.6 boards, which one is the 'official' one?

I think PK fire has had a range nerf. And maybe a travel speed nerf. I've been practicing spacing with it and suddenly can't get it to connect like it used to.

 

[Uffe]

First off, There seems to be three 1.0.6 boards, which one is the 'official' one?

I think PK fire has had a range nerf. And maybe a travel speed nerf. I've been practicing spacing with it and suddenly can't get it to connect like it used to.

This one was created yesterday and has the most replies, so this is probably the one you want to go to. As for PKF, I haven't seen any difference. Could be placebo.

 

[milesg2g]

Can anyone confirm if PSI Magnet was buffed? As far as starting frames? It feels way faster is all.

 

[Meccs]

Okay so if anyone is here just looking for a tl;dr on Ness in 1.0.6:

Ness didn't get nerfed, Sakurai is a mercyful god.
He has now been a viable character for a record 8 months!

 

[ReturningFall]

This one was created yesterday and has the most replies, so this is probably the one you want to go to. As for PKF, I haven't seen any difference. Could be placebo.

Fingers crossed! Is anyone testing ranges/has tested ranges?