#HBC | Red Ryu

lol I got too caught up in SMG2. =P

Give me about 10 minutes, then I'll get online, ok?

Yeah, we can. Can you give me about 30 minutes?

I'm guessing your Ready. I'm heading online. Good luck to you.

Ok, we're set, are you ready? Do you understand the rules?

I have your Friend Code, are you ready?

And if you didn't see my last message, Hot Arms just logged off, so you're next. The rules were changed recently, it's just ONE set of 3/5.

Hot Arms just logged off -_-.... So your next. I just need your Friend Code. You have mine, right? The rules were changed recently, it's just ONE set of 3/5.

lol Gum battle .

Well, Hot Arms just challenged me. So, unless he answers back in 5 minutes, you'll have to wait a little while . I'm sorry for the inconveniance, but please be patient. Thank you ^__^.

Ok, I'm available now. I just need to get you're friend code. Do you know the rules?

Yet on my end, I see my dad for the first time in 2 months, and to celebrate, he's having us work on the yard until dark.

And then we'll bomb the house with insecticide, so I'll be away for another few hours.

Chances are I won't be able to play today unless it's late at night.

yes I can actually ^_^

I can do it now till 5 then I can't brawl till after 10. if you can go here. http://cubonesbrawlladder.webs.com/chat.htm

if not we can do it here.

I'm good for the afternoon. What say you?

Hey Red Ryu, I'm sorry for taking over your threads just to move discussion along. I hope you don't mind.

sure thing!

Anyday but tonight because tonight because I am super busy.

Plus I have seen you around the boards/tier list discussion so I want to see you charries :3

Hey, I know this is a little random, but would you be willing to chat on AIM about match-ups?

Yep.

10yeps

hgy76ytggn holy jebus

your post count is WAYYY higher than it was.

You play Melee now?

What a coincidence, I think the IL PR has been updated haha.

Oh ho? Didn't see it, thanks.

lol no problem.

I guess just tell that to the boards as a disclaimer if they ask why there's so little.

Happy Birthday!!!!!!

The meeting will begin in approximately two hours in the LBR Xat. Try your best to be prompt!

You could call it a guilty pleasure.

Yes, I am.

DanGr (old olimar main, not sure who he mains now, but he's on the sheik boards too on occasion), he's got a pretty good list, though it's only assuming smashville.

I've been well. Busy... But well.

Not much Smash lately.

How about yourself?

Yeah no thats fine, that was hardly a rant by any stretch. Heres some food for thought that you can really call a text wall lol: Yeah I can see where you're coming from with the planking data now. It was never an issue for the most part because of MAS's ledge grab limit, but in other areas where there is not a limit (or even here if you can do it intelligently) its a major problem. Considering the ease that MK can poke it isn't a stretch to say I could create a 30% lead and plank for 5 minutes even with a limit on edge grabs. Overall I still support my idea of a two bracket system, let the M2Ks of the community deal with what they have created if they so choose, but I'd gladly enter a bracket where people can't pull out an MK trump card (though personally I'm not good enough for it to be a major issue yet).

Let me take the last MAS as an example: Me and YoshQ were both in the same pool with Wafles. As you probably know my Luigi isn't something to scoff at, but YoshQ's is a monster, comparable to Boss. Wafles has a fairly good Falco, not Arty good, but good. I mention this as it makes for an interesting study on the nature of MK in the current metagame, though I'm not sure what point it exactly makes, thats sort of up to the observer to decide. (all of these matches are available for veiwing on Ankoku's Youtube channel) Me and Wafles have our pools matches, he uses his main Falco while I use Luigi for both matches. We go fairly even, with me gaining an early lead and losing on the last stock in both matches. Though it's safe to say I'm not experienced at fighting Falcos as I've fought very few, we can safely say I did well but Wafles did better. Now the pools matches with YoshQ come up. It can be reasonably assumed by my previous results that it would take only a slight increase in skill level for Luigi to overtake his Falco (if the matches had unfolded that way I may have been able to say this more concretely but they didn't) Instead of attempting to use his Falco against YoshQ Wafles switches to MK from the get go. Now logically theres only one reason he would attempt this: He thinks he has a legitimately better chance at a win against YoshQ with MK. As I watched I could tell Wafles's Meta was not up to par with his Falco on skill level, but it managed to stay roughly even with YoshQ for game 1 and nearly beat him game 2, both games ending at high percents on the last stock. Can I for sure say that his Falco would have fared worse? No. But his motives for choosing MK are quite clear. In my matches he used Falco because he likes Falco (thus he mains him) and knew he had an acceptable chance of winning against me as he didn't know my skill level prior to the first match. When YoshQ, a competitor he knew was above his skill level despite using the same character as me (thus not a character factor), came up for his matches it was MK all the way. Clearly Wafles used MK as a fall-back to attempt and secure wins that otherwise wouldn't have been his. It's safe to say that If I had taken the first match instead of whiffed it, MK would have been present in match 2. I noticed Wafles using the same logic against ChuDat and BMX when the time for their matches came.

Though technically I'm only speaking of Wafles in this example the mentality of "If I can't beat em MK" is present for other individuals and frankly disturbs me. Lain has exhibited this trend recently, as well as Ally to some extent. An example more close to home can also be found in Kenni. How many times has he lost round 1 and decided "F it lets throw MK at em and see what happens". Though usually when this strategy is used the MK is a bit subpar it's not a difficult mental leap for any one of these competitors to decide that if they just spent as much time on MK as they have with their respective mains they would win the matches they were throwing MK at before. Fatboy for instance, does he even have a main? Not that I've ever seen, but I'll bet I could beat him if he had one. This game really has three separate tiers of competitors already:

1. Those that don't use MK on any level and excel with a character to moderate success against the members of the same group.

2. Those that have tried this, hit a wall, and decided that MK could be used to trump players that are better than them in the first group.

3. And players who have dropped their other characters entirely to raise their MK above those of the second group and compete with others of group 3.

In reality nothing is stopping any random person from being an MK pro then their own sense of enjoyment of the game / metal objection to using MK. At higher levels of play it comes down to who has the least shame to win the MK pissing contest. The individuals who are the most willing to throw away game enjoyment or sense of dignity gain an edge on those who feel fine using the characters they like to. You could make the argument that if they want the wins more they deserve them more, and should be able to use whatever means they wish to gain those wins. But do I personally want to play a game where skill can be trumped by pure desire and ruthlessness? This is like playing a game of Stratego where it's perfectly acceptable for a person to bludgeon the other competitor with a ball peen hammer mid-game. Sure I COULD just use the hammer as well, but I don't really WANT to play a game where all you have to do is be more cold-blooded than the opponent if I don't have to. I like to play Stratego, not hammer wars, but if such a game did exist I guarantee the Grand Finals would be two guys throwing the board to one side, grabbing two hammers and whaling on each other. Same goes for Brawl. Though you could just say "Tough, deal with it. Other people seem to deal with the bludgeoning just fine and still win." I don't think I should have to. I came to play and see others play a thinking game, not be the biggest b*****d they can be.

In summary: Hammer free bracket please? I'm tired of the threat of brain damage.

I also recently became Pro Ban, and after seeing this ongoing discussion with DMG I realized I should probably join in on the conversation. I think he has enough of an argument to make an impact. Though I can't say that I truly understand enough of the specifics to make frame data arguments, I believe that in general people would be more satisfied with a metagame that didn't include MK. As a trial I suggest persuading a legitimate tourney to create two separate brackets. One for those who wish to play as MK (as they have invested a considerable amount of time using him it would be unfair to leave them optionless, it was only natural they wished to use MK to try and win), and one for all other characters. I believe this would be a great temporary solution and would help clear up some grey areas on the MK ban issue without leaving MK players in the lurch. I'm fairly certain you'd have alot of people gravitate towards the second option. In all honesty if you are considering putting restrictions on a character its already a clear indicator that something is vastly wrong. I definitely feel that Brawl would be more enjoyable without him, justified or not, though I like to believe there is substance to the ban motion.

I'm just being honest though. Like seriously, with no restrictions on MK's gameplay, IMO he's the best character by a margin wide enough to warrant a ban. On paper, if you look at the frame data/hitbox info and do comparisons, he wins hands down. In people terms/views, on paper he beats every character in the game at least 6:4. Technically, he's not supposed to lose to anyone (since in theory if you have a matchup advantage rated at least 6:4, why are you losing those 4 games if you just always exploit your advantages that lead to the 6 wins) but of course people are not perfect, and a matchup ratio of at least 6:4 on everyone sounds more realistic for players in the human realm.

Soon I will write up a very large post concerning edge play data (frame data for both opposing characters, invulnerability granted from the edge, other useful frame data that should be known to people widespread that isn't). I've already gone over it, and while this should be obvious, MK EXTREMELY blows everyone out of the water concerning edge play. People complain about planking from other characters, but there are so many legitimate holes to exploit even realistically for people that it is stoppable besides MK. It will take me awhile, I might make an entire thread covering it. Not sure yet.

Lol, no worries dude.

Pretty much, a dead appendage should be cut off so it don't prevent future growth and kenni is just like that to the Sheik community. He also said sheik was low tier and wouldn't take it back >_<

Sorry about the late response, I generally prefer 80-20, but I think that should be debated honestly.

lol, same. It's ridiculous.

I didn't get the renamed replays. Since I'm getting a capture device soon you don't need to worry about it. They're an my wii.

60:40 to 65:35 Wario's favor.

His strong point really isn't about killing earlier than usual, or having a pretty good edgeguard game, but that he has so many safe moves against Link. He has no reliable way to punish even sloppy attacks on his shield.

Sounds interesting.

Take it up with the LBR or hell, even a thread would be good.

M v?

Just a wee bit.

I prefer the replays to not be public because in a few I do some really dumb stuff from sleep deprivation. It doesn't matter that much, go with what works best.

Hey man, I'm trying to get all my smashboard buddies back ever since I closed down my website, if you remember it lol. Since I made it not too long ago, there will only be a few ppl It'd be cool if you could spread it around to your friends on smashboards too! XD Here it is buddy http://xat.com/AeonsBrawl

Lol hey man yeah we haven't talked for awhile. Most of the time is in AIB right now haha