- ZSS Matchup thread.

[Ayoub]

Hi, I really got a lot of problems vs ZSS, because I don't know the matchup.
I only know a few good and bad points in this match up.

Could you guys help me out, making this a good matchup thread for others who have problems vs her?

ZSS good points:

• Is fast on the ground.
• Is fast in the air.
• She has pretty good KO power, (uair, bair, forward b).
• Pretty good in setting up combo's to rank up damage.
• Her power suit returns into 3 powerfull items wich she can use good.
• Has great range.
• She has a projectile.
• She can spike.

ZSS bad points:

• Is not that hard to gimp.
• Is very light.
• Doesn't have a good vertical recovery, (well she does, but it is easy to stop).
• Can't do anything when using her power suit against her.
• If her grab miss, it has a lot of lag.

If you know any more, tell me and I'll add it to the list.


Pits good points:

• Pit is a good gimper, so it shouldn't be that hard to gimp her.
• Pit has a better projectile.
• Lacks KO power, but that doesn't matter in this matchup since ZSS is very light.
• Pit can dtilt spike ZSS while she's hanging on the edge.
• Stun shot can be canceld by WoI, (how usefull, xD).
• He can reflect her items.

Pits bad points:

• Pit is pretty light too, so he dies early.
• Pit is slower then ZSS in the air and on the ground.
• ZSS can gimp pit out of his WoI pretty good due to her fast aerials.
• Pit can't approach good in this match up.

Pit's projectile is better, like I said. He can outcamp ZSS, and she doesn't have a reflecor or anything like that, so she can't do anything about spamming arrows. Except for powersheilding (online, lol), and crouching (angle arrows down to hit her anway). And like I said before, pit can't approach very good in this match up. < I'm not sure about this, but this is how I think about it. (Thats why I need ur help! =P) So you should force her to approach by using arrows. Watch out for her annoying dsmash, she can combo a lot out of it. (Dsmash, dsmash to uair/bair/up-b) And believe me, it does a lot of damage. And don't even try to get above her. You'll get up-b'd (stupid battlefeild) or uaired anyway.

ZSS has more priority that pit. And ZSS down b has invicibility frames. She isn't that to gimp, but ZSS mains who can time their frames good, are hard to gimp.

Oké guys, I don't know very much. So please help me out!

Info of the ZSS-side:

First off as is already mentioned ZSS is one of the harder characters in the game to gimp. What hasn't been mentioned is that ZSS can use her Down B to bounce off your head even while you're on the ledge trying to edgehog her.

ZSS' Dsmash is really good and something you should watch out for. One hit with Dsmash means about 40% damage so thats another thing to look out for. Dsmash at high percentages means you're going to be Baired to death. If you get hit with Dsmash she can Down B and spike you with it.

Pits arrows can be trouble if you're on a stage like FD which gives you room to spam them. They're a little tough for ZSS to get around. They won't shut her down or anything but its worth using.

When ZSS uses the armor be aware that she may glidetoss, throw the armor down or up and then Dsmash you or grab if you telegraph using your shield she can grab you too. Oh and if you get her armor by all means use it.

Overall its a tough matchup to call considering the lack of ZSS and Pits out there. Pit can somewhat camp in this match given the right stage and may have an edge on the ground game. ZSS' jab is fast but you can DI down and powershield it. Make sure you do this or the matchup is a little bit harder.

In the air ZSS is better than Pit. Pit's aerials can't really match ZSS' in speed. ZSS' Uair is amazing. Very fast (I think like 3 frames) has a large disjointed hitback, and can combo. It can KO but typically it will be too diminished too unless you are high up on the screen. Bair is as powerful as your sweetspotted one I think and is also very quick and disjointed. Fair can also KO (not as well as bair) and has decent speed and priority.

ZSS is vulnerable from below so use Uair to juggle. Just watch out for Dair and Down B. If she uses down b chase but watch out for the kick.

Meh thats all I got. Pit can camp somewhat and probably has a better up close game but is outdone in the air. Both should be able to avoid getting gimped. Both may have trouble landing their finishers. (ZSS may have a slight advantage in killing). There is nothing I can really see her that would make the matchup better than even for either side.

Thanks!

 

[mountain_tiger]

ZSS bad points:

• Is not hard to gimp.
• Is very light.
• Doesn't have a good recovery.
• Can't do anything when using her power suit against her.

If you know any more, tell me and I'll add it to the list.

Now, I don't know much about the matchup, but I'd just like to say that the bolded parts are completely wrong. ZSS' second jump goes almost as far as Yoshi's (test it for yourself), and if you press up B straight after it goes even further upwards. After that, she can Flip Jump, and most of the time that's sufficient to return her to the stage.

She's also one of the harder characters to gimp because Flip Jump has invincibility frames, and if you try to attack her she can potentially meteor smash you to death.

 

[Ayoub]

Oh oké, but I mean when she's low, she cant come back without using her up'b. And if you just hang on the edge (time ur invicibility frames or not, if you don't time it, you have a chance to go with her, XD) she can't come back on stage.

Her horizontal recovery is good yes. But thanks a lot, Imma change that. =P

 

[Lucarito]

I'm a ZSS player, and I'd like to point out that saying she had bad recovery is your first mistake. Her recovery is pretty good, she had 3 jumps plus 2 tethers. If you try and attack her offstage ZSS has 3 different spikes (only one is really useful in this situation, but it'll still spike you), and if you edge hog to abuse her tether her tether is also a spike, pulling you, with her, to your death.

Being able to reflect her stun shot isn't great, it won't be used very much anyway.

I wouldn't use her armour against her. ZSS players will have much more experience with it than you do (and we can glide toss! =] )

Another bad point for pit is that ZSS aerials will almost always out prioritise you. They're nuts!

And don't ever, ever, ever, get predictable. One mistake will lead into an easy combo (which later becomes a pressure string) of up to 50% damage.

Also, iirc, you don't auto ledge sweet spot? Well, be careful on that, if you get close enough to the ledge we will Dsmash you, which will lead to a risk free downB spike off the edge.

ZSS is all about pressure. If you screw up against her, she's gunna rip you a new one. But by the same token, she is very vulnerable to being punished, and will die way early if she makes a stupid mistake. Play smart, play calm, and you'll be fine =)

hope this helped

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ayoub steals bikes.

Zss has bad oos shield options, so get her shield.
Zss has a bad downwards hitbox in the air, so you can try to juggle her if you time your nair and uair correctly.
Zss has no backwards hitboxes (safe for fsmash, which isn't used) so try to use cross-ups.

I'll play you with my zero sometime, I need revenge for playing like a scrub anyway :D

 

[Phaigne]

I wouldn't use her armour against her. ZSS players will have much more experience with it than you do (and we can glide toss! =] )

This is not true. Use her armor against her. One, if you have it, she doesn't. Two, if I remember correctly, the armor pieces have a separate refresh list for each character, so you could potentially be holding a devastating weapon. And Three, we can glide toss better than her.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Our Glide Toss is crazy.

Pit doesn't auto-ledge-sweet-spot naturally, but if they're doin' it right we will anyways. Thanks, WoI!

 

[Ayoub]

Yah, wanted to say that too. Our glidetoss is better.

Xonar, hey! <3 Hahaha, revenge. =P My pit sucks, so that won't be hard.

And what 3 spikes? Up-B, Down-B and? I heard Nair, but never seen that. xP
And thanks for the info, it helped a lot.

 

[Lucarito]

lol, thay'd be dair. I wouldn't suggest it off a ledge though =P and yeah, never really played a good Pit. Just a ZSS players point of view.

 

[Ayoub]

lol, thay'd be dair. I wouldn't suggest it off a ledge though =P and yeah, never really played a good Pit. Just a ZSS players point of view.

Can ZSS dair spike? o.O

 

[Doctor X]

Pit's midweight. If he dies anywhere near as early as ZSS he's doing it wrong.

I don't know much about the matchup except that glide attack murders her provided you can land it. Y.b.M. recently picked her up, I think. I'll try to learn what I can next time I play him.

Edit: Yay. 1,000th post. Not bad for more than 5 years of being here. >.<

 

[Ayoub]

Pit's midweight. If he dies anywhere near as early as ZSS he's doing it wrong.

I don't know much about the matchup except that glide attack murders her provided you can land it. Y.b.M. recently picked her up, I think. I'll try to learn what I can next time I play him.

Edit: Yay. 1,000th post. Not bad for more than 5 years of being here. >.<

Oké, goodluck with your ZSS!

Lol, XD.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Pit's midweight. If he dies anywhere near as early as ZSS he's doing it wrong.

ZSS backair kills midweight at 120 midstage.

 

[Smashragde]

i think pit has a good adventage vs zss - mirror shield can turned back completly when she uses side+b she dont has moves wit consecutive atacks so is weak her accuracy and pits n-air and up-air is very good vs her pit really has all wat he needs to beat zss

 

[Ayoub]

i think pit has a good adventage vs zss - mirror shield can turned back completly when she uses side+b she dont has moves wit consecutive atacks so is weak her accuracy and pits n-air and up-air is very good vs her pit really has all wat he needs to beat zss

Uhm, he doesn't. ZSS is still much faster and stronger then pit.

 

[321BOOM]

Uhm, he doesn't. ZSS is still much faster and stronger then pit.

imo, 55-45.
he shouldnt be hit with armor (MS, AR, and arrows block it)
and although zamus beats him in the air, pit can easily keep her at a distance and punish approaches.

 

[Admiral Pit]

ZSS will be a difficult matchup for Pit. To me, it's pretty much her range that's more threatening than her speed. With Pit having a bad melee-based range as it is, he will have difficult times trying to approach. Her speed also contributes to giving Pit a hard time.
Use arrows sparingly, don't shoot too much or you may not have enough time to react if a ZSS comes after you.

At the beginning, a ZSS may use their armor pieces, and actually all of them should. Keep an eye on how the ZSS used the pieces differently. Her glidetoss doesn't send her too far, but with her own range, you still should be careful, even with our reflectors. Predicting is the best you can do at this part.

 

[Tien2500]

I don't have that much experience fighting Pit so this will be mostly theorycraft but I'll try to help out. Let me know if I get anything wrong about Pit.

First off as is already mentioned ZSS is one of the harder characters in the game to gimp. What hasn't been mentioned is that ZSS can use her Down B to bounce off your head even while you're on the ledge trying to edgehog her.

ZSS' Dsmash is really good and something you should watch out for. One hit with Dsmash means about 40% damage so thats another thing to look out for. Dsmash at high percentages means you're going to be Baired to death. If you get hit with Dsmash she can Down B and spike you with it.

Pits arrows can be trouble if you're on a stage like FD which gives you room to spam them. They're a little tough for ZSS to get around. They won't shut her down or anything but its worth using.

When ZSS uses the armor be aware that she may glidetoss, throw the armor down or up and then Dsmash you or grab if you telegraph using your shield she can grab you too. Oh and if you get her armor by all means use it.

Overall its a tough matchup to call considering the lack of ZSS and Pits out there. Pit can somewhat camp in this match given the right stage and may have an edge on the ground game. ZSS' jab is fast but you can DI down and powershield it. Make sure you do this or the matchup is a little bit harder.

In the air ZSS is better than Pit. Pit's aerials can't really match ZSS' in speed. ZSS' Uair is amazing. Very fast (I think like 3 frames) has a large disjointed hitback, and can combo. It can KO but typically it will be too diminished too unless you are high up on the screen. Bair is as powerful as your sweetspotted one I think and is also very quick and disjointed. Fair can also KO (not as well as bair) and has decent speed and priority.

ZSS is vulnerable from below so use Uair to juggle. Just watch out for Dair and Down B. If she uses down b chase but watch out for the kick.

Meh thats all I got. Pit can camp somewhat and probably has a better up close game but is outdone in the air. Both should be able to avoid getting gimped. Both may have trouble landing their finishers. (ZSS may have a slight advantage in killing). There is nothing I can really see her that would make the matchup better than even for either side.

 

[Smashragde]

well i really dont have problems wit her :/ i fought awesome zss and i can 2 stok them but idk why u have probles is easy :/ if zss is stronger in the air well just try to get save in the ground but seriously zss cant do anything vs u-air :/ and f-smash destroy her completly

 

[Phaigne]

So, I totally have a bunch of videos of me against a ZSS but have no way of getting them from my Wii to Youtube.

I'll put some wisdom in later.

 

[Nefarious B]

One thing that I should mention, a good zero suit will do a downward glidetoss and bait your reflector, and it's an easy 40% to start off the match.

Zero suit has the advantage in killing.

Pit won't be gimping her easily, IMO try to shoot her out of her second then you may have a decent chance.

Pit is totally out ranged and out mobilized in the air and on the ground.

IMO, what it comes down to is the Zero suit's ability to PS. Shielding the arrows well will lessen the effect of Pit's most dangerous tool against her, the camping. Once she's in mid range, she can easily move in and out or simply out space you at range, while being close enough that arrows aren't viable.

It's definitely even, it could go anywhere from 55-45 to 45-55.

 

[Admiral Pit]

At the beginning you want to try to control the armor pieces, and try glidetossing if you get one. Try using Pit's far-ranged glidetossing towards her and try to create some quick pressure, but it may not last long with her speed and range. The armor Pieces do have some nice knockback, so try to pick off ZSS quickly. It wont be easy fighting ZSS with her range and speed though.
Use the reflectors sparingly at the beginning against armor pieces so that you don't leave yourself open.

 

[Ayoub]

Thanks people.

 

[dextasmurf]

6-4 pits favor...Watch out for her one frame jab beats urz...a good zero suit will probably throw away all her pieces except one and throw it in the air and use it as flying projectile so to say....arrows are gonna help u a lot so use them....off stage punish Zero suit a lot.. THey say a good ZSS will not get gimped but i believe this is a lie...her kill moves are up air bair down b and over B which are all very easy to seee coming and her over B has certain dead zones...her grab is terrible so0o punish it everytime... when in the air watch out for her up B it drags u down into a combo....also her ahh neutral B i think should be mirror shielded always...ZSS plays like diddy plays with naners they use it and dash at u....but that would be predicting so not too much to deal with the matchup but still should b noted...

 

[Salem]

She can use jab to stop his F-smash...
So she should be owning him...

But I need to check more on the matchup before giving a rating... >_>

 

[Admiral Pit]

And how to suppress her speed and range? As far as gimping goes, I know that her Side-B can be an alternate tether recovery, like Up-B, then the Down-B, which is sometimes predictable, leaves her vulnerable at times.
We need to know the real way to get through the pressuring strategy of a ZSS, for Pit, being outranged, weaker, slower, will have difficulties.

Where ZSS is stronger, she definately is lighter, and tall, so that should level Pit's poor KO power, and she should be somewhat easy to hit with her size, but keep in mind of her speed.

EDIT: We need some Pit v ZSS vids somewhere.

 

[Phaigne]

In all honesty, I don't think she is that much faster than a Pit played properly, with the exception being her U-air.

edit: Oh and her jab, but you should be able to shield-grab/DI out.

Pit lives way longer in this matchup.

 

[Nefarious B]

Pit lives way longer in this matchup.

This is absolutely wrong. Unless you're landing your sweetspotted bair it's just not true.
Edit: See 1:11 and 1:54 of the first vid. ZS's DI and momentum cancel > Pit's fsmash

Here are some vids of Snakeee vs Ninjalink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwAScU2dS28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX4Z3xrw0QU&feature=related

Also tell me how many times you see ZS get gimped.

You guys should know that ZS's jab can stop a flying suit piece, so don't just go blindly glidetossing it or you'll just get jabbed and give it back to her.

In all honesty, I don't think she is that much faster than a Pit played properly, with the exception being her U-air.

Faster on the ground and in the air, frame 1 jab, frame 3 utilt, frame 4 uair that autocancels and combos into itself and can kill, frame 5 dtilt, frame 6 fair that kills slightly worse than our bair, frame 6 DA, frame 6 nair (which autocancels) frame 8 bair that is her primary killing move that autocancels and kills you earlier than anything you have (which also outranges everything you have)...

I really don't see how you can say that unless you're just uninformed.

You guys better be spamming **** tons of arrows in this matchup, because it's really all you have over us.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I wouldn't spam arrows due to the speed of hers being able to help her get in close on us fast and apply pressure. Don't underestimate her. Playing Teevee at times really did prove to be beneficial.

Now, here's how it works.
Power: ZSS has more KO power (Side-B is a big example), being able to KO Pit quite a bit, where ZSS is light, just about leveling the KO'ing portion, even though I think ZSS still does better.

Speed: ZSS takes this obviously, faster running speed, good string of some fast moves (F-smash not included)and overall mobility, though not that much in the air with Pit's multiple jumps.

Range: Even though Pit's projectile has the greater range with a good shooting rate and versatility, ZSS still has the better melee-based range. GL approaching, Pit

Recovery: This varies. Pit has more recovery options, but can still be opposed thanks to the range ZSS has. Getting hit by a Dsmash would most likely get you B-aired to death. Certain stages limit Pit's recovery options more, like YI, keeping Pit from gliding to the other side.
ZSS has 2 moves that allow her to tether grab the ledge: Side-B and obviously Up-B. She can also use Down-B for a slightly better elevation. While some ppl just think shooting arrows and edgehogging her tether recovery option makes it easy, it's not as easy as some think. Also, pursuing her may be rough with her good-ranged F-air.
Oh, and if we are holding the ledge when she uses Side-B, it will just function like normal, as an attack, so be careful not to get hit.
I kinda think Pit is better at this category with all the options, but he's still vulnerable, and against her speed, you may have a hard time thinking about what to do.

We're still going to need more data.

 

[Phaigne]

Faster on the ground and in the air, frame 1 jab, frame 3 utilt, frame 4 uair that autocancels and combos into itself and can kill, frame 5 dtilt, frame 6 fair that kills slightly worse than our bair, frame 6 DA, frame 6 nair (which autocancels) frame 8 bair that is her primary killing move that autocancels and kills you earlier than anything you have (which also outranges everything you have)...

I really don't see how you can say that unless you're just uninformed.

Well, I did a speed-comparison chart awhile ago, I just double checked the information on it, and well, we are actually, on average, 1 frame faster than you. This doesn't include Specials, and of course you have your slow F-smash and D-smash pulling your average down, but the numbers don't lie. We are on average, at 7.4 frames coming out, and you are at 8.6.

Don't call people uninformed without checking the facts

And also, for killing moves, we have F-smash, D-Smash, B-Air, U-Air, F-Air, D-Air, Dash attack, and Glide Attack. I think we are a little better off than you guys. And I have killed a ZSS with all of these. I have videos.

Also, I'm pretty sure ZSS has something like a dead zone where she can't hit and we can with D-smash, D-tilt, and F-tilt, on the ground at least.

 

[dextasmurf]

This is absolutely wrong. Unless you're landing your sweetspotted bair it's just not true.
Edit: See 1:11 and 1:54 of the first vid. ZS's DI and momentum cancel > Pit's fsmash

Here are some vids of Snakeee vs Ninjalink:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwAScU2dS28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX4Z3xrw0QU&feature=related

Also tell me how many times you see ZS get gimped.

You guys should know that ZS's jab can stop a flying suit piece, so don't just go blindly glidetossing it or you'll just get jabbed and give it back to her.


Faster on the ground and in the air, frame 1 jab, frame 3 utilt, frame 4 uair that autocancels and combos into itself and can kill, frame 5 dtilt, frame 6 fair that kills slightly worse than our bair, frame 6 DA, frame 6 nair (which autocancels) frame 8 bair that is her primary killing move that autocancels and kills you earlier than anything you have (which also outranges everything you have)...

I really don't see how you can say that unless you're just uninformed.

You guys better be spamming **** tons of arrows in this matchup, because it's really all you have over us.

pit has frame 2 uptilt....and to say that thats all we have isnt correct... Also i highly doubt she has enough time to jab our fsmash there iz too much hit stun and i believe she is lifted off her feet when it connects not sure gotta test it...

 

[Phaigne]

Our Dair isn't a frame 2... is it?

 

[Nefarious B]

Copied from your guide:

Dair:
Total: 38
Earliest possible hit on frame 10
Latest possible Hit on frame 17
Landing lag: 31
Shield hit lag:
Shield stun:
Advantage:
Hit Lag:

I wouldn't use dair much against ZSS because A: it's slow and easily baitable and punishable B: our uair outspeeds and outspaces it.

You are right about the utilt though, that's actually a very good move to compete with ZS's jab and utilt for close range combat.

 

[Phaigne]

Yeah, I thought Dair was a bit slower, but still, your moves really don't come out much faster than ours.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'm just gonna quote myself because it's easier this way:

frame 1 jab
frame 3 utilt
frame 4 uair that autocancels and combos into itself and can kill
frame 5 dtilt (our grounded spacing tool)
frame 6 fair that kills slightly worse than our bair
frame 6 DA
frame 6 nair (which autocancels)
frame 8 bair that is her primary killing move that autocancels and kills you earlier than anything you have (which also outranges everything you have)...

Your only moves that will really compete with her speed wise are your jab, utilt, nair, uair, and bair. Now that's not bad persay, but in all reality the only ones in that list that have enough range to hit a properly spaced ZS with any consistency are jab uair and bair.

If it's a question of overall speed, ZSS wins by a landslide. However, I'm not saying that's the only thing that matters in a matchup, but it is a very significant thing to consider, especially when speed is what is going to get around your projectile spam.

 

[Phaigne]

Jab: You got us, still easily shield grab-able.
Utilt: Ours is faster, yours does have some reach, though.
Uair: Your's is faster, but ours will tear you up more with your bad Dair and good spacing.
Dtilt: Ours is only slightly slower (1 frame) and reaches longer and spikes.
Fair: Yours is faster, but more often than not, ZSS and Pit will trade hits, at least for me.
DA: Again, ours is 1 frame slower and has great killing potential in this matchup.
Nair: Ours is faster and great for ledge games. You have some reach on us.
Bair: Again slightly slower, and serves the same function.

You forgot both D-tilt and D-smash for us, which are both very important in this match up, Frame 6 and 5 respectively, plus good range.

This is why I hate matchup discussion, you can bend the matchup in your direction very easily. And I still insist we win in killing power. Zamus is very light.

I'm calling even, but I don't really believe in these ratios.

Edit: Also, I have a different number for your nair. I got all my frame data from awhile ago, so I don't know if someone figured out it's faster or what. I have it written down as coming out on frame 11. Everything else is dead-on, though.

2nd Edit: Just checked myself, your Nair does NOT come out on frame six. It comes out on 11. Where the hell did you guys get 6?

 

[Nefarious B]

What hitbox are you looking at? You can autocancel to have just the first side of it hit, and this is how its used to combo.

 

[Phaigne]

No dude, I mean there is no hitbox at frame 6, her whip isn't even out on frame 6.

 

[Nefarious B]

Well thanks for testing it then, it feels really fast to me lol so I never suspected it of being wrong. It doesn't really change this matchup much though.

IMO, it's probly 55-45 Pit's advantage but put w/e the hell you want, it's really the info not the number that matters

 

[Phaigne]

Yep, I agree, Sounds about right, though.