ZGD: Livin by a thread.

[KayLo!]

New MU chart? (I clearly never travel beyond the social.)

 

[Fluttershy]

-4:
-3:
-2:
-1:
0:
2:

yeah fox should be -3

 

[Rizen]

Would Fox be -3 in a box? Would he be -3 wearing socks? ( <3 Dr.Suess)

I don't see how Zelda has a +2 on Ganon but Link only has +1 vs him :/

 

[Tesh]

zelda looks like the closest thing ganon has to an even matchup imo, who knows what they were thinking

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I dunno, I made life hard for DLA and Verm when we played a bunch at Apex. They were the friendliest of friendlies but I WHHHAAARRRRGAAARRRBBBBLLLED then each.

May have rubbed off lol.

Also, I don't see the fox -3.......but no one brought it up in the discussions so it honestly got left alone.

 

[Death Arcana]

dude you're scaring me

 

[Fluttershy]

scary what do you think marth is?

 

[Vermanubis]

We played at the last Apex, Ed?

Also, yeah, Zelda's not easy for Ganon. She's not awful, but if he had an even MU, it'd be against Mario, Luigi, Bowser or Falcon.

 

[Alacion]

Wolf should be -2 and isn't even in the same league as the other -3s. Fox I am not sure about.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

In spirit Verm.....missed ya buddy. We had fun at Apex 2010 & 2012 though......so long ago

@zeldamaster_1: I personally think it is -2. Marth has to get tippers to kill. Its hard but I never saw it as overwhelming.

@Aleate: I agree but was thoroughly outvoted on that one. He is much harder than Fox IMO.

@deathkingsuarez: do I scare you?

 

[Fluttershy]

I'd have to agree with you with -2 it just doesn't feel like he can really overwhelm Zelda as much as others can. i felt more relaxed fighting against him (not a CPU btw, js) then fox. Probably because i second Marth but not Fox...

 

[Vermanubis]

Will you be at 2014, Ed?

 

[ぱみゅ]

The thing with the Marth Matchup is that, I can't think of a safe way Zelda can approach him, whenever he gets a lead, I don't think Zelda can do much granted the Marth keeps himself at a proper distance and waits for Zelda to commit into something.

Kinda like Snake in the sense he's absurdly safe, with the difference of Snake killing better and being weaker offstage, while Marth excels waaaaay much more in the safety section.
[/Marth "main"]


Wolf's kill options are much more real than Fox's with his mobility alone (plus he can get a lot of reward from a Dthrow); that guy is scary. Killpower is pretty much the main reason I voted him -3 other than his
Blaster seriously crippling Zelda's recovery.

Now, I think Fox is somewhere between -2 and -3, but Fox's kill options aren't as effective as you always know when to expect them (it still sucks to die to an Usmash at 80% though). Also, SDI his obvious Dair/Utilt approaches, it works wonders.


***The entirety of this post was my personal opinion, read with a grain of salt***

 

[Rizen]

Wolf is great at poking Zelda. His spacing options and air speed make him extremely hard to deal with. IDK if I consider him -3 for Zelda. Wolf's at least a -2 but -3s are really bad MUs :/

 

[Mocha]

When you play people like Kain and McPee, you will feel like you cannot touch them. Call me crazy, but I find Wolf more difficult than Falco. But this is just from personal experience. If I fight almost any other Wolf, I don't have near as much trouble fighting them, as I did with Kain and McPee. Wolf is a MU that hardly anyone knows, though I wonder how big of a difference it would make if the Zelda player knew the MU.

 

[Alacion]

Have you played a top Falco?

 

[Mocha]

Dark Falco was probably the best one I played offline, and he gave me a really hard time. The MU sucks for Zelda, I already know this - I've seen what he can do to Zelda, and not just to my Zelda, but other Zeldas as well. He still has some weaknesses that Zelda can abuse though, such as a linear recovery that Zelda can punish, with prediction. Now I'd say the same for Wolf's recovery, except that I had a hard enough time even hitting him, let alone sending him off stage enough to understand effective ways in edgeguarding him. You have to realize that I'm not talking about a generic pocket Wolf, or someone obscure who no one ever hears of. I'm talking about Wolf mains/Poweranked who understand the character, and can space seemingly flawlessly with him.

Have you played a top Wolf?

 

[Alacion]

Nope but I was just wondering.

 

[Mocha]

Falco still sucks for Zelda, regardless of what I think about Wolf. I just think most of us don't even realize how stupid Wolf can be for Zelda, because most of us have never played a decent Wolf. And this could be said for a lot of MUs really.

I used to think ICs wasn't too bad for Zelda, not until I played potent ICs that could chaingrab. It's really one of those things where you'll never really know until you experience it, and get destroyed. Like I'm sure you didn't think Donkey Kong was all that bad for Zelda, till you experienced the nasty things he could do. Marth is another character I used to underrate, until I found out how awful it was once he gained momentum, and the ridiculous pressure he could keep on us.

Thoughts on MUs can change over time, especially when you finally experience the MU against a decent player using the character. I'm sure your initial thoughts on Zelda's MUs weren't the same as they are now. Mine sure aren't.

 

[Rizen]

I don't think Zelda has ANY safe options vs Wolf and Wolf has several vs Zelda. Wolf can be edge guarded but Zelda doesn't have good tools for that. I'd Din's then if he's closer to the ledge spam Dtilt. If he tries to get off the ledge, Nayru's (vs blaster) or Usmash with a read.

I've played almost every American Wolf online, more using Link though, and good Wolfs can give Zelda hell. With that said, it does seem like a border -2/-3. IDK if I'd call it -3 but that's not unreasonable.

 

[Mocha]

Can we upsmash out of shield his back air approaches? I tried this several times in my matches, but it never seemed to work. Some of his moves can really poke. Whenever I think I've shielded everything, I get hit by more. It's like trying to shield a multi-hit moves from Zelda, but with strange duration.

 

[DeLux]

Assuming perfect frame advantage spacing from wolf, they'd be able to PS the first hit of Usmash

It's close enough that it would probably be worth a try, but probably not anywhere close to reliable especially since it doesn't take into account the spacing/disjoint of the move.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've had only one friendly against Ed at Apex with Ganondorf and it was a 2 stock for him. While I had tiredness johns, I could still understand why Ganon has trouble in the matchup. Zelda's large hitbubbles tend to beat those of Ganondorf in a lot of situations and can cover mutiple options at once. Her mobility might be poor but it's often enough to catch Ganon's landings anyway. Calling it an advantage for Zelda is justified imo, whether it's +1 or +2 is a different matter.

Verm is right about Ganon's even matchups. Imo the order is Luigi > Bowser > Mario > Falcon, in terms of how close they are to even.

 

[Rizen]

vs Wolf, Zelda is forced to be aggressive to get him and she loses that game but it can disrupt his spacing. My best success was not from being timid.

IMO Zelda vs Ganon is +1. I don't think Zelda does better than Link overall. Zelda is better at GTFO options but Link can wall Ganon off from the side and camp him better. Link needs to stay to the side and not be above or below Ganon. On large stages Link has more advantage but it's a +1 for him overall. Link gets juggled less by Ganon's Uairs.
All three characters get murdered offstage. Ganon has the best intercepting game, then Link with projectiles/edge hogging etc.

 

[DLA]

Ehhhh I still feel Zelda vs Ganon is even. Though if it's in anyone's favor, it's Zelda's. Ed's the first Zelda I ever fought who beat me more than I beat him, though I suspect part of it is because just being AROUND Ed makes me act like a total goon. He's just that kind of guy. Let's put some money up next time and see what happens!

Also... just picturing the Wolf vs Zelda matchup in my head makes me cringe. I've seen Kain fight a few Zeldas and it wasn't pretty.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

GOON STATUS ACHEIVED!!!!!

Yes!

I gotcha for the $5 next time DLA.

 

[DEFCON]

Falco still sucks for Zelda, regardless of what I think about Wolf. I just think most of us don't even realize how stupid Wolf can be for Zelda, because most of us have never played a decent Wolf. And this could be said for a lot of MUs really.

I used to think ICs wasn't too bad for Zelda, not until I played potent ICs that could chaingrab. It's really one of those things where you'll never really know until you experience it, and get destroyed. Like I'm sure you didn't think Donkey Kong was all that bad for Zelda, till you experienced the nasty things he could do. Marth is another character I used to underrate, until I found out how awful it was once he gained momentum, and the ridiculous pressure he could keep on us.

Thoughts on MUs can change over time, especially when you finally experience the MU against a decent player using the character. I'm sure your initial thoughts on Zelda's MUs weren't the same as they are now. Mine sure aren't.

Mocha, once again proving herself to be the most logical Zelda on the boards.

Take notes Ed.

I've had only one friendly against Ed at Apex with Ganondorf and it was a 2 stock for him. While I had tiredness johns, I could still understand why Ganon has trouble in the matchup. Zelda's large hitbubbles tend to beat those of Ganondorf in a lot of situations and can cover mutiple options at once. Her mobility might be poor but it's often enough to catch Ganon's landings anyway. Calling it an advantage for Zelda is justified imo, whether it's +1 or +2 is a different matter.

Verm is right about Ganon's even matchups. Imo the order is Luigi > Bowser > Mario > Falcon, in terms of how close they are to even.

>>Plays one friendly against a Zelda.
>>Thinks he has has enough knowledge to make a valid opinion of the match up.
>>Ganon's thinking Zelda has any match ups better than Luigi


Coming to the realization that Ed was the leader and only active Zelda user on the Zelda panel makes the outcome of the chart a lot more understandable.

 

[Rizen]

Those gifs...
That aside, ^do you play Zelda?

 

[KayLo!]

Those gifs...

That's all you needed to post. ;;

 

[ぱみゅ]

My modness is in conflict right now, I'll just pretend I didn't see that.

 

[Rizen]

My modness is in conflict right now,

Maybe you're too 'modest'.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hi Fuujin! ^_^

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Fuujin, iirc we made a thread looking for our fifth panelist. I believe you were banned at the time and even so you still manage to get your word out to others so I'm sure you probably could have volunteered if you chose to. Hindsight will always be 20/20.

Besides, I didn't try to force any changes except one or two. The chart would've looked super crazy if I decided to go nuts lol. I gave a few opinions and them deferred to everyone on the panel.

 

[BJN39]

Fuujin alt no.3 since sumo ban?

Hi Zeldas! <3

 

[Mocha]

Also... just picturing the Wolf vs Zelda matchup in my head makes me cringe. I've seen Kain fight a few Zeldas and it wasn't pretty.

Kain's Wolf eats Zelda for breakfast.

Assuming perfect frame advantage spacing from wolf, they'd be able to PS the first hit of Usmash

It's close enough that it would probably be worth a try, but probably not anywhere close to reliable especially since it doesn't take into account the spacing/disjoint of the move.

Meh, it's discouraging. Makes me think of trying to OoS Kirby's spaced back air, or Peach's dair cancels.

 

[Rizen]

Wolf's Bair doesn't have very much disjoint because his legs keep their hurtboxes. It's fast with good reach and little lag so it's a safe spacing move. If Wolf Bair-ed his foot into a hitbubble that out prioritized it he would take a hit. That's dumb though.

Spaced right, with Wolf's great air movement, Bair should be safe on Zelda's shield.

 

[Tesh]

Bair is safe on any shield though. The only way for anyone to get around it is to preemptively strike him or read his next move.

 

[Rizen]

Further confirmation from the wolf boards:

Bair, spaced right is safe on any shield?

Not like I say this all the time.

He says it all the time to put the quote in context.

 

[Seagull Joe]

sucks. destroys her.

Kain's Wolf eats Zelda for breakfast.

Meh, it's discouraging. Makes me think of trying to OoS Kirby's spaced back air, or Peach's dair cancels.

Just 's Dthrow alone puts in the worst positions possible (When she needs to recover).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

http://smashboards.com/threads/low-tier-competition-at-apex.339197/