Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[Drarky]

I don't know that much about Olimar, but one thing is for sure.

Don't. let. him. land.

Olimar has some pretty terrible landing options, and most of the time you can exploit them using aerials (Air Shooter does wonders here), he really suffers while being up there.

Aside from that I don't know a whole lot so I better shut my mouth.

 

[Greward]

How usefull is leafshield in this matchup?

Uhhh I don't think it's too good, i hardly ever use it in neutral against Mario but definitely an option to land or juggle/edgeguard. But I'm not sure, Mario isn't a common matchup in europe and I haven't tested enough at it yet

@Sorichuudo
As the guy above me said, Olimar has a pretty bad disadvantage state. I like to not play the neutral game too much against Olimar and try to get setups for a grab. Pikmin toss is hard to avoid completely and it will build up damage easily and fast.
If you play the neutral game (projectiles) I think we don't win it, Pikmin toss is better than our stuff, but it depends on his pikmin management and your anti pikmin game (which unless you are hell experienced in the MU is hard).
You have to keep track of which pikmin will go on his next attack and whether he has pikmins ready. Pressure hard when he has no pikmins or just 1. If he has 1 pikmin and uses fsmash for example he will be left with nothing for some seconds.
Pikmins have health so killing them is an option if you think that'll give you the advantage. Sometimes it's worth to kill a dangerous colour asap (white/purple/blue mostly, depends on your %).
MB works well since it goes through pikmin. You can try and shoot down any incoming pikmins but is tricky. If he's latched MM doesn't have good options to kill it. Try to stay outside of pikmin range, which changes depending on pikmin lineup, and when you see the opportunity (pikmin desynched, forced to pluck) go in. Else you can try to play rushdownish.

When going aggro respect the space in front of him since he covers it with grab/fsmash. Try to land with pellets since they can disrupt a lot of his stuff. Most attacks that clash with pikmins will cancel the pikmin's hitbox. Pellet disrupts dash grab which is his favourite landing punish.
A grab in against Olimar can mean a lot of damage since he has a poor time landing. Try to cover his options more than going for hard reads since he has to rely on some kind of mess up to regain the neutral position.

His dtilt and dsmash can hit on the ledge and are dangerous. Dair is a good spike too. Avoid blue pikmin grabs at kill % and white pikmin toss at low %. If he has multiple purple pikmin it can be very hard to rush down so keep calm and kill them or try to outcamp. His up air is very good and has to be respected too. His Usmash can kill early but is a hard read option, very punishable. He has troubles getting kills usually.
His recovery can be edgeguarded, its somewhat similar to Villager but worse. Bair is what I usually try, but I think that leaf shield might be very good here since olimar's upB has recharge time like ROB's, so if he's interrupted with the leaves he might not be able to get back. Should test it though.

 

[Funkermonster]

Uhhh I don't think it's too good, i hardly ever use it in neutral against Mario but definitely an option to land or juggle/edgeguard. But I'm not sure, Mario isn't a common matchup in europe and I haven't tested enough at it yet

@Sorichuudo
You can try and shoot down any incoming pikmins but is tricky. If he's latched MM doesn't have good options to kill it. Try to stay outside of pikmin range, which changes depending on pikmin lineup, and when you see the opportunity (pikmin desynched, forced to pluck) go in. Else you can try to play rushdownish.

See bold.

This I disagree with. A Good way to remove latched Pikmin is to use Rush, shoot an Uair as you fall back down, and then bounce off of him into the Uair to clean off the Pikmin. As long as Olimar isn't too close you should be safe and sound while doing it.

 

[ravemaster47]

Can someone enlighten me why so many people think falcon is a bad or even matchup? I fell we have the advantage.

 

[Funkermonster]

Can someone enlighten me why so many people think falcon is a bad or even matchup? I fell we have the advantage.

• 2nd fastest runner in the game and high airspeed, has mobility to get by lemons and he has generally better close range abilities than we do.
• Complimenting said speed, he has the best dash grab in the game and a dash attack that's stupid good against many of our things. His Dash Attack is disjointed beats out Top Spin, Crash Bomb, Leaf Shield, clanks with or catches Metal Blade, and I think it can also sometimes clank with lemons too. If it hits, he's gonna combo into Uairs from it and it's not pretty, and your only hopes against it are shield and lemons, but then the former's gonna make you fall victim to his godly dash grab and then you'll have to deal with this...
• His Damage output and combo game are WAY better than Mega Man's, and we are quite vulnerable to said combo game due to our physics (above average weight + fast fall speed). You can annoy him in neutral with lemons for a little bit and deal around 11%, only to have it surpassed by his down throw combos, jab, dash attack, and Bair; especially considering Mega's low damage output in general.
• Even though his recovery generally sucks, gimping Falcon with Mega Man is harder than it looks (assuming the Falcon is actually smart) since you have to hit him like 5 times before he really dies. You can Leafstool if he tries to recover low with UpB, but he can just recover high and use SideB for that instead. You do have a spike in Hard Knuckle and can z-drop metal blades, but its too hard to hit with since his air speed is so fast he can maneuver around it.
• Meanwhile, if he guesses your recovery or ledge option just once, you die.
• His amazing Jab is tough to deal with in close range and has basically everything you could ask for on a jab (except range), even clanks with or destroys almost all of MM's projectiles. Both the 3 hit jab and rapid jab are annoying.
• His approach options aren't exactly safe, but aside from his great dash grab and attack he can also Shorthop Uair or Bair and net some big punishes from those if you guess wrong on what he's gonna do.

Overall, Falcon's got his ways around Lemons, and is gonna rack up twice as much damage as you will with better kill moves. You win neutral but you have to do so much in the punishment game to keep up with him and hope lemons and gimping will take care of him (they probably won't). Other speedy characters like and can give similar problems cuz of their speed + better advantage states, but Greninja at least has terrible frame data and a lack of OoS options that MM can challenge, and Fox is easier to abuse offstage and he can't really do much to threaten shields (especially at high %).

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Maybe this would ease our troubles a bit. Now, making practical use out of it...

OneSmash : Notes on footstools
https://youtu.be/79Ofn1Gq7gQ?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h

 

[Greward]

See bold.

This I disagree with. A Good way to remove latched Pikmin is to use Rush, shoot an Uair as you fall back down, and then bounce off of him into the Uair to clean off the Pikmin. As long as Olimar isn't too close you should be safe and sound while doing it.

dude that takes super long. You will be hit two or three times by the pikmin. It's an option yeah, but it's not a good option. Some characters can just sh aerial and take them off, thats why mega man has no good options.

 

[ravemaster47]

It just doesn't feel like a hard matchup. I've lost to only a couple Falcons and teh games were super close. It could be that I've played a falcon main since the melee days, but I don't think it's a -1.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I've faced some good Falcons before (Demitus) and what has been said sure feels true. Once he gets in, Mega Man takes a lot of damage and loses good stage control.

 

[ravemaster47]

Reevaluating my experience with a friend of mine, yeah, falcon is a little harder than I thought. But still much easier to work with than a lot of the roster. I say it's even after a few hours of playing him.

 

[p1ay6ack]

have we talked about robin? the only problem i have is robin's arc fire. I know how to play the neutral well, but arc fire is shutting me down, wat should i do?

 

[ravemaster47]

I just keep at max range. If he pops fire, diagonal metal blade. The biggest problem I have with this matchup is actually Robins multi jab. Elwind can be rush coiled out of if you DI up. And Robin above us is pretty easy to air shooter.

 

[Greward]

i think mega man beats cloud

 

[Just a Random Guy]

i think mega man beats cloud

Megaman shuts down most swordfighters with maybe the exception shulk and roy if you don´t space well.

Still, didn´t see that one coming. Last time I checked Cloud's hype faded away with Brawl

 

[ravemaster47]

Have we discussed peach yet? I just played a decent one and I felt like she walled everything I coukd do and she pressured my shield hard.

 

[CopShowGuy]

Have we discussed peach yet? I just played a decent one and I felt like she walled everything I coukd do and she pressured my shield hard.

I can't say I've fought a good Peach so I don't know how the MU works. I can see her aerial approaches being a problem if we can't hit her out of it first.

 

[ravemaster47]

I could only chip damage and couldn't commit to anything. Nair and fair put in a lot of work. I'll post up some videos later, but it's a matchup I think needs discussing.

 

[meleebrawler]

It doesn't really seem hard. Floating at any remote distance is swiftly shut down by any of Rock's projectiles. She's not very mobile so it's fairly easy to keep your ideal spacing. Don't be discouraged if she swats a few shots, keep firing. When you need a safe kill, bair is your friend as it has more range than her nair and is faster than her fair.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

ScAtt's matches wee uploaded a week ago, but I still think that this is kinda important for the Shiek MU.
When Shiek grabs you, prepare yourself to DI up and away from her
It won't do much at low %, but once you get aroung the 80% range, it will let you evade the FThrow -> Bouncing Fish and the UThrow / DThrow -> UAir (it still leaves a 50-50 between FTrow & BThrow tho...).
My pick is that letting her damage you isn't that bad since more % = more knockback = less Kombos & more Rage for us. Shiek has trouble killing, so staying alive is all about keeping your head cool, keeping your composure and not caring too much about her combos (avoiding them is still a good idea).

BTW, I think moving onto Peach is a good idea. Her float can make landing trap mingames even more trickier than ever (float Fair & Dair too gud). Our Fair is usually a nice tool to fight her in the air, but sometimes you just can't guess if it's worth or not. XD

 

[Megamang]

Did scatt beat some notable shieks at to11? Im just getting into MM, some vods of that would be great. Do you guys consider the MU close to even?

 

[CopShowGuy]

We used to consider it even. Then the Sheiks got better. Safer. It's seen as not in our favor now.

 

[Drarky]

Not. Even. Close.

Probably our worst MU right there, and the reason why MM is difficult to see.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

They definitely are right. Shiek is a very, very bad MU for Mega Man. the only thing that saves us is that she has trouble when it comes to getting the kills, but she has some insane combos...
I was only telling about something I noticed upon getting grabbed over and over again. Mario is still worse through... UTilt -> UTilt ->UTilt ->UAir -> UpB really hurts. And has safer kill moves in general.

 

[CopShowGuy]

They definitely are right. Shiek is a very, very bad MU for Mega Man. the only thing that saves us is that she has trouble when it comes to getting the kills, but she has some insane combos...
I was only telling about something I noticed upon getting grabbed over and over again. Mario is still worse through... UTilt -> UTilt ->UTilt ->UAir -> UpB really hurts. And has safer kill moves in general.

That reflector of his doesn't help either...

 

[Drarky]

Mario does not have the mobility that Sheik has, I'll always feel like Mario is annoying to deal with, but his approaches are rather "okay" in the end, and MM definitely can take advantage of that.

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=OHzFOGOVeQxIFmXRTnMFZg the mario boards are discussing mega and would love ur input.

 

[Unclesatan]

Olimar

Is there a proper way to fight this guy?
Do i need to kick back and keep tossing MBs/CBs/LS at him? Are lemons useful against him? I think the purple Pikmin just plows trough everything, but do the lemons stop the other Pikmin?
His pivot grabs give me a hard time.
Does he have any laggy move that can be punished? I know fsmash is pretty much safe, don't know about the others.

pay attention to his pikmin that's just about the only advice i can give you other than lemons are practically worthless against a good olimar

chuck MBs and LS, try to get him offstage asap

 

[Greward]

Sheik is what keeps megaman out of solo viable to win tournaments tier imo.

It's a horrendous matchup at high level, having a second for her is recommended (not like she has any counters but whatever).

 

[Drarky]

Getting a second against Sheik is like getting hit by a car instead of by a truck.

The pain is still there, just slightly less powerful.

 

[ravemaster47]

pay attention to his pikmin that's just about the only advice i can give you other than lemons are practically worthless against a good olimar

chuck MBs and LS, try to get him offstage asap

Metal blade is so good in this matchup. It is our way in for sure. And off stage, he's as good as dead.

 

[xIvan321]

Crash Bomber is really good against Olimar. Consider it an answer to his Pikmin by chucking Pikmin of your own, and if he attacks as the bomb launches, it often hurts him the same way it hurts Rosalina's Luma or Villager's tree.

 

[p1ay6ack]

if anyone's having trouble with the pika matchup, up smash is super super good to use. in high lvl play, pika does quick attack on megaman alot, because usually quick attack is safe on a lot of charchters, and most charchs dont have good frame moves but megaman upsmash pulls pika in, and pika is vulnerale to this, yes upsmash can be punishable because of end lag, but pika doesnt have a one strong punish move, so we're usually safe here. pika up smash doesnt kill at low 100 perecents, so yea, we dont got too much to worry about

leaf shield, metal blade is good too. charge shot is okay when pika is using quick attack from a distance, crash bomb is not recommended but can be used, but expect it to be shielded

and also, expect pika to either quick attack to the center of the stage, or to the ledges, or after you use 2 projectiles on pika from mid range, or after use of 1 projectile on pika from close range

^this isn't always the case, but its likely and likely enough to be close to reliable

moves to not rely on: pellets (only as a mixup) cuz pika's moves can beat pellets and pika has fast frames to act out of pellets, downsmash (a really hard read),

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Haven't posted here in a while so I'll throw my thoughts in.

Olimar
Spam mb/ CB if he stays at a distance. Should be easy to gimp with his bad recovery.
Try to go to battle field since he can't throw Pikmin from far away because of the platforms.

Peach
Uair does wonders, it hits her out of all of her moves. Also bf is another good stage because of the turnips.

Hell, take anyone to bf because of double short hop uairs on shielding opponent on the platforms wrex them.

 

[Meistermayo]

Where can i find information about shulk/pacman matchups?

Having trouble getting the kill on shulk when he alternates between shield and smash seamlessly,
And im unsure where im supposed to play neutral against pacman. I think im supposed to be midrange without approaching

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Shulk is tough because his sword is almost as long as our pellet range which makes it easier for him to poke us than the rest of the cast.

He isn't very good on the ground so try and stay down below him. That way Uair can hit him out of most of his attacks and he has a pretty bad grab.

Also his sword outranges leaf shield.

Basically when he has shield on you have to keep him away from you and continue racking the damage up it is near impossible to ko him other than a gimp.

Throwing him offstage while he is in shield mode is the best option because his upb can be spiked pretty easily.

I find he is actually pretty easy to gimp because of his vulnerable upb so try and spike him.

Pac man is a match of whoever is the best with items and dodging items.

I find out fsmash against the hydrant catches him offguard sometimes.

When he is recovering try to hit him then use his trampoline to recover and that can gimp him sometimes. Also hard knuckle can hit him out of the side b (where he chases the pellet)

I think this is a favorable matchup for us.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Pac-Man is actually one heck of a tough nut to crack. His fruits are stopped by everything until they are a Melon or higher, they eat Charge Shots, and his SideB and DownB have hurtboxes... I actually found Rush to be a life saver in this MU : if you feel like a fruit is coming, you can just Rush away in a hurry and dodge whatever could come at you.
Meanwhile, we HAVE TO rely on our Metal Blades to stop Pac-Man, since nothing we do really scares him. If he gets greedy and sits on his Hydrant, you can just UTilt it away and deal a nice 12% .
I think Nu~ could help you put. If he wants to. ^^'

Edit : After messing around with customs, it looks like Plant Barrier effectively stops every fruit until they become Melons, and Hyper Bomb clashes with the Melon. Skull Barrier is useful, but windboxes... Ice Slasher does go through SideB & the Hydrant, and stops clashing at the Melon.
(Plant Barrier OP)

 

[Nu~]

Mega Man loses nuetral hard since we don't care about most of his tools to keep us out. Most of our projectiles eat his and we can heal off of his pellet wall by blocking it with side B.


Pac-Man is easily able to get in and start his trap shenanigans against mega man.

 

[Drarky]

...okay.

SideBing our pellets... what do you gain? Like a 1% heal? Mega Man can get a free MB if the Pacman goes get it right away, and if he doesn't, then Mega Man can also pick it up.

Leaf Shield can deal with Pac Man's projectiles rather easily, and Melon... really? I mean when he throws it out with some other hitboxes like the Hydrant yes, it can annoying, but if not, why don't you just jump air dodge? Now you've taken out of the way one of his main tools while you are still capable of using some of you (Projectile shenanigans, Leaf Shield).

I find the MU to be pretty evenish in the long run, both characters can beat out most of the other options at the end of the day, and it comes down to which player is capable of using his overall moveset better.

The Man fight is fair and square.

I'll post/edit later about Shulk, and I won't start one of the "well Pacman can do X, but Mega Man can do Y to stop it, but Pacman has Z to stop that strategy, but then..." because it doesn't leave to anything and just proves further my point of them being on equal grounds.

 

[Nu~]

...okay.

SideBing our pellets... what do you gain? Like a 1% heal? Mega Man can get a free MB if the Pacman goes get it right away, and if he doesn't, then Mega Man can also pick it up.

2% actually. And the pellet continues to block lemons on the ground. You don't have the frame advantage to pick it up or MB before we eat it. Do the research before you make things up. The point is that your lemons don't much matter here

Leaf Shield can deal with Pac Man's projectiles rather easily, and Melon... really? I mean when he throws it out with some other hitboxes like the Hydrant yes, it can annoying, but if not, why don't you just jump air dodge? Now you've taken out of the way one of his main tools while you are still capable of using some of you (Projectile shenanigans, Leaf Shield).

You mean that slow startup leaf shield? Good luck stopping any fruit in nuetral with that. Pacman isn't going to try and throw fruit at long range for you to beat out with leaf shield. Instead, he will use fruit in mid range to quash yours and then recatch them to start z drop shenanigans.

And I never said that pacman would try to lame you out with melons. Just that melons and stronger fruit don't care about MB. And If we item toss a melon, you can't catch it.

I find the MU to be pretty evenish in the long run, both characters can beat out most of the other options at the end of the day, and it comes down to which player is capable of using his overall moveset better.

You have weaker options to stop ours however. That's what makes the difference.

 

[Megamang]

Megas options are not unilaterally weaker than pacs. Normal to normal, mega wins each aerial. He also kills easier than pac by a significant margin.