Meta Zero's Advice: General Matchup Q&A

[Diamond Octobot]

Since nobody's going to remember that I tried to get an early MU Input, I'm just going to copy/paste it here, then I'll add some stuff.

Mewtwo 's most notable feature in this MU is his weight and air speed IMO. He is light (dies to rageless Utilt around 85 % I think) and is really floaty, so we can just Uair all day long while he is above us. Since he is quite tall, lemons are more annoying than anything else for him.
On the other side, Mewtwo has a chargeable Shadow Ball and a Palutena' ish reflector that actually allow him to get combo setups if he gets close enough, and his regular attacks have quite a good range. (His smashes are still really slow to come out tho)

The little things to add :

• Avoid getting hit by Disable. It is obvious, but if you get too greedy... Bam, instant Stock loss. Never forget it. Stay at max Jab range and keep jumping. JUST DON'T LET HIM BLINK
• Use Rush when he hits with Confusion. You can also jump, but loosing your 2nd jump is already a bad idea when you can easily get comboed.
  
• Keep shooting. You can interrupt his Shadow Ball animations if you hit him during them somehow.
• Crash Bomb is fun, but if you can grab your opponnent, then he can do the same. Be careful and don't let him Fthrow you while you got stickied.
• Mewtwo has a good amount of attacks that go through Leaf Shield and Confusion is a Command Grab. 'Nuff said. Don't overuse it.
• Mewtwo's tail has a really good range, so don't even try to challenge it. If you fail, you'll get comboed by UTilts, Dtilts, Bairs & Uairs (Some even link into kill moves)
• Mewtwo being both light AND a floaty, you don't have to go in too hard to get the kills. Just rack up damage through attack strings and throws, then just kill him with a Uthrow or a Bthrow or whatever else that works. Utilt & Usmash are still risky moves, so be careful.

 

[Sorichuudo]

If you don't have much percent and are feeling brave, you can go for fair if he manages to hit you with confusion*. Fought one on my online tournament, and one thing he tried was approach with SHAD + an aerial, but i either hit him with SH pellets, uair, or just ran away and resumed zoning.

Honestly, biggest threat here seems to be shadow ball, cause like Samus charge shot and Lucario's aura sphere, a half charge one goes through everything we have except the LS, but a LS for a half charged shadow ball is not a trade we want to make.

Still wont give a ratio since i lack MU experience, i will say that it feels like we have the advantage here, but not by much.

EDIT: I meant confusion, not disable lol i'm an idiot

 

[Just a Random Guy]

If you don't have much percent and are feeling brave, you can go for fair if he manages to hit you with confusion.

How is it possible? From what I know confusion sends you straight down, with leaves teching as the only safe option, since doing a getup option runs the risk of being jab locked. Are you able to double jump out of it?

 

[Sorichuudo]

How is it possible? From what I know confusion sends you straight down, with leaves teching as the only safe option, since doing a getup option runs the risk of being jab locked. Are you able to double jump out of it?

https://youtu.be/d2k6BecbzBY?t=859 skip to 14:19 if it's not there when you open the link. When Mewtwo hits the WFT the second time, you can clearly see him doing an aerial before Mewtwo's animation ends, and thus he lands, shields and rolls away to escape.

 

[Funkermonster]

Since nobody's going to remember that I tried to get an early MU Input, I'm just going to copy/paste it here, then I'll add some stuff.

Mewtwo 's most notable feature in this MU is his weight and air speed IMO. He is light (dies to rageless Utilt around 85 % I think) and is really floaty, so we can just Uair all day long while he is above us. Since he is quite tall, lemons are more annoying than anything else for him.
On the other side, Mewtwo has a chargeable Shadow Ball and a Palutena' ish reflector that actually allow him to get combo setups if he gets close enough, and his regular attacks have quite a good range. (His smashes are still really slow to come out tho)

The little things to add :

• Avoid getting hit by Disable. It is obvious, but if you get too greedy... Bam, instant Stock loss. Never forget it. Stay at max Jab range and keep jumping. JUST DON'T LET HIM BLINK
• Use Rush when he hits with Confusion. You can also jump, but loosing your 2nd jump is already a bad idea when you can easily get comboed.
  
• Keep shooting. You can interrupt his Shadow Ball animations if you hit him during them somehow.
• Crash Bomb is fun, but if you can grab your opponnent, then he can do the same. Be careful and don't let him Fthrow you while you got stickied.
• Mewtwo has a good amount of attacks that go through Leaf Shield and Confusion is a Command Grab. 'Nuff said. Don't overuse it.
• Mewtwo's tail has a really good range, so don't even try to challenge it. If you fail, you'll get comboed by UTilts, Dtilts, Bairs & Uairs (Some even link into kill moves)
• Mewtwo being both light AND a floaty, you don't have to go in too hard to get the kills. Just rack up damage through attack strings and throws, then just kill him with a Uthrow or a Bthrow or whatever else that works. Utilt & Usmash are still risky moves, so be careful.

Pretty decent analysis, but some things I disagree with or feel are missing some other important info.

• You really shouldn't be getting hit with Disable like, ever. This move is crazy hard for Mewtwo to land and is almost a useless move in general. It counts as a projectile and can be reflected (with Skull Barrier at least), shielded or crouched under, and it isn't particularly ranged for a projectile either. It also cannot stun you while Airborne, and it will not work if you are facing away from Mewtwo. As long as you keep moving and don't recklessly throw out punishable moves, disable is pretty much a non-issue, whether you're playing Mega Man or any other character.
• Use Rush if you get caught in Confusion... I have a better idea than that : If you're hit by Disable , simply DI towards Mewtwo and cut him with Flame Sword/Fair. Despite what training mode might tell you (word of advice, don't trust the combo detecting system in training mode, its not very accurate in determining whether a combo is realistic or not), Confusion does not combo into anything ever, it's actually unsafe on hit and you can act right out of it if you get hit by it, either by jumping away or counter-attacking. Don't attempt this below 40% tho, as Fair lacks knockback and has too much landing lag to be safe on hit, and it leaves Mewtwo right in front of you. Haven't tested but Falling Uair might work as a substitute, though I think Confusion might last a little too long for it to work and just reflect it back at you and leave Mewtwo unharmed. I dunno if it works (if it does, always do it instead of fair since it'd be both safer and more rewarding), but I doubt I will because of that. Can someone test this, please?
• Mewtwo's tail does have range, but its not disjointed and he still has hurtboxes on his tail. Challenging them isn't really as bad is it may seem.
• If you can use it, Uair is amazing against Mewtwo and kills him earlier than most others, being the 2nd lightest and one of the game's floatier fallers. He might try to reflect it when airborne, but you can bait it and cut him with Slash Claw if he does, potentially killing him due to his weight.
• Mewtwo's combo game is somewhat lacking and these are his cookie cutter combos. Jab > Grab/Utilt, Dtilt > DJ Aerial, Dtilt > Utilt, Utilt> Utilt/Uair. Beyond these there's not a whole lot he can do,

 

[meleebrawler]

Pretty decent analysis, but some things I disagree with or feel are missing some other important info.

• You really shouldn't be getting hit with Disable like, ever. This move is crazy hard for Mewtwo to land and is almost a useless move in general. It counts as a projectile and can be reflected (with Skull Barrier at least), shielded or crouched under, and it isn't particularly ranged for a projectile either. It also cannot stun you while Airborne, and it will not work if you are facing away from Mewtwo. As long as you keep moving and don't recklessly throw out punishable moves, disable is pretty much a non-issue, whether you're playing Mega Man or any other character.
• Use Rush if you get caught in Confusion... I have a better idea than that : If you're hit by Disable , simply DI towards Mewtwo and cut him with Flame Sword/Fair. Despite what training mode might tell you (word of advice, don't trust the combo detecting system in training mode, its not very accurate in determining whether a combo is realistic or not), Confusion does not combo into anything ever, it's actually unsafe on hit and you can act right out of it if you get hit by it, either by jumping away or counter-attacking. Don't attempt this below 40% tho, as Fair lacks knockback and has too much landing lag to be safe on hit, and it leaves Mewtwo right in front of you. Haven't tested but Falling Uair might work as a substitute, though I think Confusion might last a little too long for it to work and just reflect it back at you and leave Mewtwo unharmed. I dunno if it works (if it does, always do it instead of fair since it'd be both safer and more rewarding), but I doubt I will because of that. Can someone test this, please?
• Mewtwo's tail does have range, but its not disjointed and he still has hurtboxes on his tail. Challenging them isn't really as bad is it may seem.
• If you can use it, Uair is amazing against Mewtwo and kills him earlier than most others, being the 2nd lightest and one of the game's floatier fallers. He might try to reflect it when airborne, but you can bait it and cut him with Slash Claw if he does, potentially killing him due to his weight.
• Mewtwo's combo game is somewhat lacking and these are his cookie cutter combos. Jab > Grab/Utilt, Dtilt > DJ Aerial, Dtilt > Utilt, Utilt> Utilt/Uair. Beyond these there's not a whole lot he can do,

First of all, you're mixing up Confusion and Disable.

Second of all, Confusion is not unsafe on hit to the point where he'll always get hit for landing it like in Melee, he'll always have time to shield your Flame Sword and punish you for it. The safest thing for Rock to do is always jump or DI away thanks to his great air acceleration.

It's true that his tail moves aren't fully disjointed but they still exist.

It's a lot harder than you might think to land clean hits with Air Shooter; Mewtwo has fairly good airspeed and a faster than normal airdodge, on top of his confusion and teleport. A smart Mewtwo won't try to challenge moves when landing.

Mewtwo may not have the best combos but unless Rock has mastered his footstools his aren't that long either, and Mewtwo hits harder on average.

It's true that an optimal Megaman will leave little to no opening to land a disable, but it's range is not to underestimated nonetheless.

On a another note, Skull Barrier is less effective than it initially seems; since it can only reflect projectiles up to 25% it will almost always lose if Mewtwo rereflects the ball, and in fact can lose outright to a fresh fully charged. And as many of you have noticed with Samus, charged shots can easily blow through most of Megaman's moves.

Megaman is a slippery target for Mewtwo and will land more hits usually, but they aren't as strong as Mewtwo's. Expect a long, drawn out fight whenever these two meet.

 

[Browny]

It's true that his tail moves aren't fully disjointed but they still exist.

... I'm disappointed that you, a Mewtwo main, have got this wrong.

Does no one read all the threads I make on the Mewtwo boards proving his hurtbox locations and the size of his disjoints ;_;

Fun fact (for Megaman mains); Mewtwo's disjoint on his tail moves is larger than all of Marth's disjoints so please... don't use 'lack of disjoints' as a counter to any claim made in this matchup.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

After fightimg the MU a while it is hard fighting the shadow ball spam and freaking usmash

 

[Diamond Octobot]

... I'm disappointed that you, a Mewtwo main, have got this wrong.

Does no one read all the threads I make on the Mewtwo boards proving his hurtbox locations and the size of his disjoints ;_;

Fun fact (for Megaman mains); Mewtwo's disjoint on his tail moves is larger than all of Marth's disjoints so please... don't use 'lack of disjoints' as a counter to any claim made in this matchup.

Did you even read my post ? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
(Do you mind linking that thread/post of yours btw ?)

 

[Browny]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/

A few pics down I show the disjoint on dtilt to the correct pixel and ftilt/bair is off by like, 1-2 pixels at most.

 

[meleebrawler]

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-misconceptions-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-end-here.416127/

A few pics down I show the disjoint on dtilt to the correct pixel and ftilt/bair is off by like, 1-2 pixels at most.

I never said Mewtwo had no disjoint at all, or even that they weren't very good. But the definition of disjointed is a hitbox that does not overlap with a character's hurtbox. The trunk of his tail is a part of his hurtbox but hides in the Z-axis most of the time, and the rest is not. Whenever Mewtwo attacks with the tail that trunk does move into the active plane, and hitting it can damage Mewtwo even though it is part of the attack's hitbox. It's most easily noticed with bair, which doesn't clank. Even though Mewtwo can hit with the trunk, and is in fact the sweetspot, Mewtwo can get hit or trade if he's hit there, which means that part of the move is not disjointed. The rest of the tail is though, and with the great range on those moves they can still be put to good use.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I don't have a lot of experience when it comes to the Mega Man v Mewtwo match up. From the Mewtwo's I've played, he does have some good stuff like his F-Throw if we fail to get a Crash Bomber on him, and his U-Throw, but beyond that, Mewtwo was never one to give me a lot of trouble when facing him. The Shadow Ball is the main threat since it eats up all our projectiles like Samus's Charge Shot. It also helps that since Mewtwo is so light and floaty, juggling him with Air Shooter can help rack up damage and our kill moves kill him pretty early so that gives us the upper hand. I'd probably put it to slightly favorable.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Forgive me for the double posting, but maybe we should update the beginning page since it feels like it's been ignored for a while.
Speaking of the next match up, I was thinking of covering a difficult match up for us. I'm thinking the Pits or Wario.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't have a lot of experience when it comes to the Mega Man v Mewtwo match up. From the Mewtwo's I've played, he does have some good stuff like his F-Throw if we fail to get a Crash Bomber on him, and his U-Throw, but beyond that, Mewtwo was never one to give me a lot of trouble when facing him. The Shadow Ball is the main threat since it eats up all our projectiles like Samus's Charge Shot. It also helps that since Mewtwo is so light and floaty, juggling him with Air Shooter can help rack up damage and our kill moves kill him pretty early so that gives us the upper hand. I'd probably put it to slightly favorable.

Mewtwo is not easily hit by Air Shooter. Not with that airdodge and confusion.

It's kind of a strange match where both characters kind of specialize in the mid-range game. Pellets give Rock the edge there but in turn Mewtwo is a bit better up close and from afar. Confusion is fairly good at reflecting things other than pellets so he's not too concerned at a distance.

It's an even fight really but also very drawn out. Megaman lives longer (but can be gimped, or at least take significant damage against nair) and will land more hits in footsie situations, but Mewtwo hits harder on almost everything with good range of his own. Both can punish the other severely for mistakes, so there likely won't be many risks taken on either side.

 

[Just a Random Guy]

Well, I think since nobody's talking about mewtwo that much, it may be appopriate to change to another char.
How about we talk about a top tier due to latest patch?

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

Well, I think since nobody's talking about mewtwo that much, it may be appopriate to change to another char.
How about we talk about a top tier due to latest patch?

I think now would be a better time than ever to discuss Pikachu, if it hasn't been done already.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Ill rather choose Yoshi or Sonic

 

[Just a Random Guy]

Alright, let's go for Yoshi (Since he benefits a lot from the patch) for the time being unless the majority or Locke06 says otherwise.

When I face yoshi most of the time I put leafshield up and see what hapens. When they eggspam, I'd likely throw the shield and approach, if not I'll just stay there trying to punish so I can see how he likes to approach.

EDIT: On a side note: Does anybody know if they have setups to get the dair?

 

[Drarky]

Played a Yoshi player some time ago... the character is seriously just so straight forward I don't see how'd you lose to him after getting use to his moves.

Things like the eggspam can be outranged, SHAD shenanigans are beaten by lemons, Slash Claw outranges everything Yoshi has, and while the Yoshi Bomb can be dangerous to our shield, it's pretty easy to see when it's coming.

The MU comes down mostly to experience IMO, once you realize the bag of tricks Yoshi has, it becomes a pretty simple MU.

6-4

 

[Just a Random Guy]

Played a Yoshi player some time ago... the character is seriously just so straight forward I don't see how'd you lose to him after getting use to his moves.

Things like the eggspam can be outranged, SHAD shenanigans are beaten by lemons, Slash Claw outranges everything Yoshi has, and while the Yoshi Bomb can be dangerous to our shield, it's pretty easy to see when it's coming.

The MU comes down mostly to experience IMO, once you realize the bag of tricks Yoshi has, it becomes a pretty simple MU.

6-4

Really? Haven´t played a yoshi for a while now.Most of the time it still gave me trouble getting it out of me once it got right on my face, but I guess that was because of bad spacing. but it definetely seems people complain it gives us a bad time.
I remembered this guy was disscused around may so it doesn't seem he changed that much.
Is it alright to disscuss this guy or do we change the topic?

 

[Pressio]

I know its right now not the main topic but i need to know your opinion about the bad MU (Cpt.f).
Today i found a very interesting vid on youtube and i am wondering why everyone says that MM has a bad matchup vs cptfalcon? I saw the best american Cptf player vs scatt..and its not so bad as people say! And if we can stop cptfs we should stop other rush down characters too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi3HGSe1epA - Scatt vs fatality

 

[CopShowGuy]

It kind of is as bad as people say. Mega Man has to work twice as hard to rack up damage compared to C. Falcon. One slip up and your lead is probably gone. C. Falcon just gets in and converts off his grabs and aerials so well.

 

[SSGuy]

I don't mean to go off topic, but do you think it would be possible to have links that direct to where each character MU is discussed? I am specifically looking for Fox and Link advice.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I don't mean to go off topic, but do you think it would be possible to have links that direct to where each character MU is discussed? I am specifically looking for Fox and Link advice.

I have some experience with both match ups.
: This is a slight disadvantageous match up because Fox is fast, has a reflector, and can combo very well. However, the reasons as to why this isn't completely out of our favor is because our off stage game is better and Fox is incredibly light, so in the hands of a good Mega Man player, these facts are exploited. The main thing Fox and Mega Man share is that their kill moves have a lot of commitment to execute. The main thing with Fox is to be patient and don't get thirsty for kills. I often kill Foxes by getting a Slash Claw or Back Super Arm throw on them. It's not impossible to win this match up, but remember that it's not an easy one to win.
: At a glance, Link seems to have complete dominance over Mega Man. For one, Link has his Hylian Shield, which already negates our Forward Smash. He also has good spacing properties like Mega Man, and Link's kill moves are safer than Mega Man's. However, there's one major downfall to Link: His air game. This is where Mega Man dominates Link and this is where you want to be in this match up. Link can't really do much in the air, so what you need to do is get him up there and never let him get down. The main thing Mega Man and Link share is that they aren't that fast on the ground and their F-Smashes aren't safe and can be punished if shielded. This is an even match up since Link controls the ground, but Mega Man dominates the air.

I'm not a big time player, so hopefully you learned something. ^_^;

 

[Locke 06]

I don't mean to go off topic, but do you think it would be possible to have links that direct to where each character MU is discussed? I am specifically looking for Fox and Link advice.

Fixed up the OP to be easier to navigate. Hope it helps.

I kinda feel bad for letting this thread semi-die, but at the same time I'm kinda meh about it. I've been doing my own thing for the most part.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Fixed up the OP to be easier to navigate. Hope it helps.

I kinda feel bad for letting this thread semi-die, but at the same time I'm kinda meh about it. I've been doing my own thing for the most part.

How about letting someone else run this thread? If you aren't committed to this thread, maybe it's best to let others participate in this. I'd love to participate in talking about Mega Man's match ups, especially since I have a lot to say about certain match ups, mainly the Fox match up since my sparring partner is a Fox player.

 

[Drarky]

Yeah, having a spar partner tends to show you a lot of some specific MUs. (In my case is Pit/Lucas)

 

[Rocket52]

Any frame traps or shield breaking combos?

 

[Just a Random Guy]

Any frame traps or shield breaking combos?

That kind of question is better suited for this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/cons...man-question-answer-thread-check-here.369339/

On a side note, my favorite setup is crash bomb<Fsmash or item metal blade, if they decide to shield. Gives them a fair amount of pressure and often leads to a grab

 

[Rocket52]

That kind of question is better suited for this thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/cons...man-question-answer-thread-check-here.369339/

On a side note, my favorite setup is crash bomb<Fsmash or item metal blade, if they decide to shield. Gives them a fair amount of pressure and often leads to a grab

Yeah. MB. I hadn't realized I wasn't in that thread when I posted ;-;.
Those methods are the ones I know.. But was wondering if there were more witht the shield stun Mechanics. Thanks thouggh!

 

[Just a Random Guy]

Yeah. MB. I hadn't realized I wasn't in that thread when I posted ;-;.
Those methods are the ones I know.. But was wondering if there were more witht the shield stun Mechanics. Thanks thouggh!

Maybe you can glide toss< ftilt, or autocancel dair and lemon drop. I think Chopper Dave has a tecnique called "lag replacement" or something between those lines when using rush coil. Basically when you time and aerial or a special when using rush coil's second jump (I´m not sure, needs to be checked out) you replace the landing lag for that of the other move. Works best for lemon drop and leaf shield.
I don´t think megaman's frame trap meta is advancing that much though.

 

[Jaysonfire]

Hi guys, I'm unsure if it has already been discussed but any sort of advice vs would be appreciated. I have trouble approaching him especially when he eats everything (that quickly builds up his whaf). The only thing I can think of is punishing his eating animation but is there other stuff that MM can exploit ?

 

[meleebrawler]

Hi guys, I'm unsure if it has already been discussed but any sort of advice vs would be appreciated. I have trouble approaching him especially when he eats everything (that quickly builds up his whaf). The only thing I can think of is punishing his eating animation but is there other stuff that MM can exploit ?

The only thing that actually helps charge the waft is metal blade, since it is an item.

 

[Jaysonfire]

The only thing that actually helps charge the waft is metal blade, since it is an item.

So Wario only builds up his whaf if what he swallows heals him?

 

[Just a Random Guy]

So Wario only builds up his whaf if what he swallows heals him?

I think diagonal saw blade can hit wario, trying to grab him on the end lag is also an option

 

[Greward]

So Wario only builds up his whaf if what he swallows heals him?

Yep he only charges waft if he eats an item (and items heal him for 1% unless its a bomb or the likes). I think he charges it for 1 or 2 seconds so its not that big of a deal. From Mega Man's moveset, just metal blades. He can also eat the bike or the bike's wheels for this.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Hey guys, how do you deal with Mario?

 

[Greward]

Hey guys, how do you deal with Mario?

Hard keep away and a lots of faith. Move around a lot, don't stay in shield.
Fair is surprisingly good in the matchup.
Try to abuse his lack of range as best as you can and a very pellet heavy game. Pivot grab is quite good too. Offstage is the place where you want him to be, although it's hard to gimp him. You need a lot of space to run away from him so play the space game very smartly.

 

[Just a Random Guy]

Hard keep away and a lots of faith. Move around a lot, don't stay in shield.
Fair is surprisingly good in the matchup.
Try to abuse his lack of range as best as you can and a very pellet heavy game. Pivot grab is quite good too. Offstage is the place where you want him to be, although it's hard to gimp him. You need a lot of space to run away from him so play the space game very smartly.

How usefull is leafshield in this matchup?

 

[Sorichuudo]

Olimar

Is there a proper way to fight this guy?
Do i need to kick back and keep tossing MBs/CBs/LS at him? Are lemons useful against him? I think the purple Pikmin just plows trough everything, but do the lemons stop the other Pikmin?
His pivot grabs give me a hard time.
Does he have any laggy move that can be punished? I know fsmash is pretty much safe, don't know about the others.