Q&A Zero Suit Samus- Quick Question, Quick Answer Thread

[FEAR977]

Is there any point in learning the roll cancel grab with ZSS? Does she actually gain noticeable distance or range for her grab?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Is there any point in learning the roll cancel grab with ZSS? Does she actually gain noticeable distance or range for her grab?

Nope, as far as my experience goes.

 

[FEAR977]

Nope, as far as my experience goes.

I figured, thanks. It's annoying to do it consistently anyway.

 

[Fidyyuan]

Regarding her kill moves, does anyone know some general guidelines for kill percents? For example, Down+B, Up+b, Fair? I wanna say for Uair, it's about 140% or so.

 

[DeLux]

Regarding her kill moves, does anyone know some general guidelines for kill percents? For example, Down+B, Up+b, Fair? I wanna say for Uair, it's about 140% or so.

I think a lot of that is character, rage, and positioning dependent unfortunately.

 

[Kradzilla]

How do you control the direction you go when using down b? I try to use it a lot for horizontal recovery but a lot of times I flip away from the stage even when I'm holding the stick towards the stage. Does it not matter which way you hold the stick? Does it depend on your momentum or which direction your facing? Do I just suck?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

but a lot of times I flip away from the stage even when I'm holding the stick towards the stage

No you're not.

Sorry but it's that simple. If your stick positioning is correct you will always jump in the direction you want.
Are you playing with pro or gc?

 

[Kradzilla]

pro. can't find gc adapters anywhere.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

pro. can't find gc adapters anywhere.

Damn. Hope you get lucky in the near future.
The octagonal gate on the gc controller really helps with those issues.

 

[BluB]

Can anyone tell me if there is a sure way to get out of zss upB?
Sometimes I get above or behind her before the hits connect but it seems kinda random.
Like do I have to DI a certain direction before the first hits connects or something?

 

[sonti]

Can anyone tell me if there is a sure way to get out of zss upB?
Sometimes I get above or behind her before the hits connect but it seems kinda random.
Like do I have to DI a certain direction before the first hits connects or something?

dont quote me on it but im pretty sure once the first hit connects you cant get out of it

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Can anyone tell me if there is a sure way to get out of zss upB?
Sometimes I get above or behind her before the hits connect but it seems kinda random.
Like do I have to DI a certain direction before the first hits connects or something?

You have to DI in the opposite direction as ZSSamus tilts her up b.
If ZSSamus responds fast enough to your DI you can not get out though.

 

[Neclord]

I had an Ike player at 146% earlier today and couldn't kill him with up air. =(
Is Ike a heavy weight character? =D

What are her best kill moves in general? I tend to use up air after a down grab a lot.

 

[DeLux]

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

 

[Neclord]

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

Ok that makes sense, Ike is pretty heavy.
Thanks. =)

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Is there any framedata available anywhere?

 

[Remzi]

Is there any framedata available anywhere?

I haven't seen any unfortunately.

Anyone know the best way to get pikmin off of you?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Is there any general framedata for this game at all? How quick airdodges are, how much vulnerability getsups from the ledge have, etc etc?
how exactly the buffer works?
so much technical info i want to know about this game that i cant find anywhere

 

[TeaTwoTime]

@ DeLux - In your Landing with ZSS video, at one point you showed that you could reverse her side-B in a similar fashion to her lazers (I believe that's what happened, anyway). I'm interested in testing out its uses; can I ask what the input is? I spent about a minute trying to figure it out but couldn't get anything to happen.

 

[DeLux]

OK let's talk about specials and directions.

Let's say you are facing left.
> , neutral special - Turn Around Special, Paralyzer shoots Right
Neutral Special, > - Special Reversal, Paralyzer shoots right with momentum shifting the opposite direction of drift
>, neutral Special, < - Wave Bounce Special, Paralyzer shoots left (you turn around once with the right input, but reverse once with the left input), momentum shifting in opposite direction.


Side Special Left, > - Special Reversal, Plasma Whip zones to the right with momentum shifting in opposite direction of drift
Side Special Right, < - Special Reversal, Plasma whip zones to the left with moment shifting in opposite direction of drift.

Functionally the side special reversal acts like a wave bounce, since you establish the direction you're facing intuitively based on the nature of inputting side special, followed by reversing the control stick and direction after the special input. So the initial direction faced doesn't matter, just the reversing part. However, side special seems limited in comparison to paralyzer based on how much "bounce" / momentum preservation one receives for inputting it.

I think side special in general is a bad move so good luck with using it and let me know what you get!

 

[smashkng]

Is there any general framedata for this game at all? How quick airdodges are, how much vulnerability getsups from the ledge have, etc etc?
how exactly the buffer works?
so much technical info i want to know about this game that i cant find anywhere

There is only this unfortunately: http://smashboards.com/threads/beginnings-of-frame-data.378840/

Which is incomplete but still very useful.

There is also this 1.0 landing lag frame data: http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/
A few characters like Ganon got the landing lag changed on some moves. ZSS air dodge landing lag is 22 frames in 1.0.4 . But otherwise ZSS' landing lag one her moves haven't changed. Also, while I don't know if anyone has the exact frame data on ledge climbs, regular ledge climb into shield only has 1 frame gap without invincibility. It makes things like regular ledge climb to shield and ledge climb to jab (especially with someone who has a frame 1 jab like ZSS) a good strategy, since they have to meaty you with near frame perfection to hit you. And this applies to every character in the game. Of course, like almost everything else, you should still mix up in order not to become too predictable with it. The ledge climb frame data doesn't feel much different from the Brawl <100% ledge climb data, which had a total of 34 frames on average. So either that is 34 frames, or somewhere very close to it. And ledge invincibility doesn't carry in ANY way. The frame you drop from the ledge, all your invincibility instantly disappears. During ledge climb attacks, there is no invincibility during the frames the ledge attack hitbox is active and you can't extend the invincibility with any tricks. You can't extend the invincibility of ledge jumps or ledge rolls either with edge grab invincibility.

As for buffering, it should have around 7-10 frames, but you can only buffer 1 thing a time. So for performing a turn around jab, you can buffer the turn-around but the jab has to be timed precisely in order to do it fast. Same with a FH Fair into double jump Fair. The double jump is bufferable but the Fair has to be timed precisely in order to do it as quickly as possible.

Another, completely different thing. Don't know if anyone is aware of this, but I've found a reliable way of running of the edge and grabbing it as quickly as possible. With ZSS doing it normally isn't very consistent. But there is a way around this. What I do is run to fall down, hold down to fast fall for a very short period of time and then back + Up b (up b has to be reversed). Up b autosweetspots the ledge extremely early (may be from as early frame 1 that's what it looked like in 1/4 speed in training mode). It autograbs from pretty high too (but you still have to fall for a few frames before it starts autograbbing the ledge). If done correctly you won't see any up b animation at all, just ZSS grabbing the ledge.Can take some (not that much) practice to become consistent at it, but once mastered, no risk of missing your attempts to steal the edge from your opponent! Whether it's faster, slower or as fast as doing it normally was hard for me to tell, but if there is any difference then it's minimal and most importantly, it's consistent.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Good **** SK. More people like you are needed in this game so far.
Look forward to playing you, shame you weren't at beauty.

Only being able to buffer 1 thing at a time is something I've noticed. From what I've heard this was not the case in Brawl though, right?
Also, how fast is letting go of shield? And is there any difference if you perfect shield?
And how fast are ZSS's grabs?

 

[smashkng]

Good **** SK. More people like you are needed in this game so far.
Look forward to playing you, shame you weren't at beauty.

Only being able to buffer 1 thing at a time is something I've noticed. From what I've heard this was not the case in Brawl though, right?
Also, how fast is letting go of shield? And is there any difference if you perfect shield?
And how fast are ZSS's grabs?

Sure, once I get a Wii U we can start playing online! Or we can play offline at the next tourney we meet. I don't think I can come to BEAST however, unfortunately, because I have an exam Monday morning after BEAST so its schedule interferes with my life.

But yeah in Brawl you could buffer 2, 3, or even more things at the same time. This is not possible in Smash 4. And yes, when you power shield cancel you can do actions while ignoring the shield release frames (pretty much any attack works. I've used PS Utilt or jab to for example punish a landing Sheik Fair which is otherwise frame safe. On PS, jab is like a frame 1 OoS punish move and Utilt a frame 3 one). You gotta be quick with the shield confirming however. And I don't think you can PS cancel into dashing. Not with walking either. So no dash grab or dash attack with the frames skipped. But you can smash, tilt, special, any other attack you want. So be prepared with he reactions when you plan on doing that. And buffering out of powershielding is possible to do.

When it comes to shield release, I think you're forced to hold the shield for at least around 15 frames until you can shield release at first unless something touches your shield (but you can cancel shield anything else that is cancelable like jump, grab, sidestepping and rolls). Shield release frames feel about the same in Smash 4 as in Brawl. I've tested with my 3DS and Brawl with both in 1/4 speed at the same time and can't find a difference in frames. It was 7 frames in Brawl so in Smash 4 shield release frames should either be 7 frames or somewhere very close to that. Again I've no frame data to prove to 100% certainty, but when comparing both games at the same time, her standing grab apparently just barely faster than her frame 16 grab in Brawl. So from my tests it appears to be either 14 or 15 frames from close range. It takes longer for her to grab further away though further away has a grab box which lasts for quite a while so sometimes it can cover rolls away from you when you dash grab someone. Her dash grab and pivot grab probably have the same start-up as her standing grab. Very hard to tell the difference between them in start-up. They may actually all be the same in start-up.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

It seems alot faster then 7 frames to me, but maybe the games overall slower speed compared to Melee throws me off.
MOAR QUESTIONS: How fast is ZSS up-b and does it have any invincibility?

 

[smashkng]

According to Japanese guy's frame data up b seems to be frame 4. And it seems to have 0 invincibility frames according to all 1/4 the speed tests I've done in training mode unfortunately. But the first hit is a bit disjointed. And it hits hard so it's a good tradeoff.

 

[DeLux]

According to Japanese guy's frame data up b seems to be frame 4. And it seems to have 0 invincibility frames according to all 1/4 the speed tests I've done in training mode unfortunately. But the first hit is a bit disjointed. And it hits hard so it's a good tradeoff.

link please

 

[smashkng]

link please

I meant from this link http://smashboards.com/threads/beginnings-of-frame-data.378840/

@ 0x236. That data is very likely from Boost Kick, which from my training mode slowdowns seems very likely to be frame 4. And it says it deals 5% damage, which is also the damage this moves actually deals. This is not 100% certainty, but if it's not frame 4 then it should be either that or frame 5. But it seems more like frame 4 to me it from the 1/4 speed tests feel like it's the same speed as Robin's jab, which is confirmed to be frame 4. It's a tiny bit slower than the frame 3 Utilt I can confirm and faster than Ftilt, which is frame 6.

This data from that thread was taken from some Japanese player originally I meant, but I forgot that link for the rest of the characters.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Side Special Left, > - Special Reversal, Plasma Whip zones to the right with momentum shifting in opposite direction of drift
Side Special Right, < - Special Reversal, Plasma whip zones to the left with moment shifting in opposite direction of drift.

Functionally the side special reversal acts like a wave bounce, since you establish the direction you're facing intuitively based on the nature of inputting side special, followed by reversing the control stick and direction after the special input. So the initial direction faced doesn't matter, just the reversing part. However, side special seems limited in comparison to paralyzer based on how much "bounce" / momentum preservation one receives for inputting it.

I think side special in general is a bad move so good luck with using it and let me know what you get!

Gotcha - so just like a standard B-reversal, but you hold down the side direction for a tiny bit longer so that plasma whip is registered instead of paralyzer. Thanks. I expect its uses will be limited mainly to mix-ups so that reversed paralyzers don't become too predictable.

 

[DeLux]

I meant from this link http://smashboards.com/threads/beginnings-of-frame-data.378840/

@ 0x236. That data is very likely from Boost Kick, which from my training mode slowdowns seems very likely to be frame 4. And it says it deals 5% damage, which is also the damage this moves actually deals. This is not 100% certainty, but if it's not frame 4 then it should be either that or frame 5. But it seems more like frame 4 to me it from the 1/4 speed tests feel like it's the same speed as Robin's jab, which is confirmed to be frame 4. It's a tiny bit slower than the frame 3 Utilt I can confirm and faster than Ftilt, which is frame 6.

This data from that thread was taken from some Japanese player originally I meant, but I forgot that link for the rest of the characters.

That day was ripped from Dantarion's work though. Haven't heard teh japanese player thing before, so I was curious on that part the most!

Gotcha - so just like a standard B-reversal, but you hold down the side direction for a tiny bit longer so that plasma whip is registered instead of paralyzer. Thanks. I expect its uses will be limited mainly to mix-ups so that reversed paralyzers don't become too predictable.

Paralyzer is beaten by shield
Plasma whip is beaten by shield

Not seeing the mixup potential on a cursory glance. Especially since the lack of inherent reward for landing plasma whip in comparison to paralyzer.

 

[David Viran]

Wait is side b punishable if you hit with the end of it on sheild because it seems to far away to get a reliable punish.

 

[iVoltage]

What are Zero suits horrible mu's? I have a bit of trouble with projectile characters but It might just be my lack of experience fighting them.

 

[DeLux]

What are Zero suits horrible mu's? I have a bit of trouble with projectile characters but It might just be my lack of experience fighting them.

I think ZSS has the Marth syndrome for this game where she gives a bunch of characters the business, but slightly loses to quite a few characters. Fast characters and characters with good OOS games are hard.

Tough MU's being - Diddy, Sheik, Pika for sure imo. There are quite a few hard even MU's that I'm not sure to label them as tough as well, but I'm more going to attribute it to my shortcomings as a player rather than the MU.

 

[Jaxas]

I think ZSS has the Marth syndrome for this game where she gives a bunch of characters the business, but slightly loses to quite a few characters. Fast characters and characters with good OOS games are hard.

Tough MU's being - Diddy, Sheik, Pika for sure imo. There are quite a few hard even MU's that I'm not sure to label them as tough as well, but I'm more going to attribute it to my shortcomings as a player rather than the MU.

Adding to this, Pikachu/Kirby/other short characters can be a pain because a decent amount of ZSS' moves (like Jab1, Ftilt [not angled down]) go straight over them...

 

[iVoltage]

Adding to this, Pikachu/Kirby/other short characters can be a pain because a decent amount of ZSS' moves (like Jab1, Ftilt [not angled down]) go straight over them...

Yeah I've encountered this and its safe to say its very annoying haha. I'm newer at this character so I'm glad to see some of these are universal problems and that I'm not just horrible.

 

[DeLux]

Yeah I've encountered this and its safe to say its very annoying haha. I'm newer at this character so I'm glad to see some of these are universal problems and that I'm not just horrible.

It could be we are all horrible though

 

[pichuthedk]

No its the rage factor zss wants to kick those small characters like a soccer ball but the heels make it awkward, So we all inadvertantly get mad when tilting...error wait maybe I'm just talking about my self again xD.

 

[DSkro]

I'm looking for recommendations on a secondary character to cover ZSS's more annoying matchups (small characters typically). I'm kinda partial to Robin and/or Pikachu but Robin feels too slow for most of those matchups and Pika just feels like a ZSS replacement instead of a "compliment".

Anybody got any ideas?

 

[pichuthedk]

What about like shulk or shiek?
Shulk is somewhat versitile with his different modes, while shiek has that 0-60 agression coupled with the ability to almost always be up in your opponents grill is something certain people will have difficulties dealing with.

 

[DSkro]

What about like shulk or shiek?
Shulk is somewhat versitile with his different modes, while shiek has that 0-60 agression coupled with the ability to almost always be up in your opponents grill is something certain people will have difficulties dealing with.

Both are solid suggestions. That said, Shiek kinda feels like Pikachu where I'm more replacing ZSS than I am complimenting her. Its like having a pocket Sagat for when your Ryu gets blown up.

Shulk is an excellent choice and hits the points I need. He has large hitboxes, hits hard and isn't slow as hell but has one glaring (and kinda stupid) problem. My "rival" is a Shulk specialist so I want to stay away from him...matchup diversity and all that.

Bowser might fill the same niche as Shulk though.

 

[Jaxas]

Both are solid suggestions. That said, Shiek kinda feels like Pikachu where I'm more replacing ZSS than I am complimenting her. Its like having a pocket Sagat for when your Ryu gets blown up.

Shulk is an excellent choice and hits the points I need. He has large hitboxes, hits hard and isn't slow as hell but has one glaring (and kinda stupid) problem. My "rival" is a Shulk specialist so I want to stay away from him...matchup diversity and all that.

Bowser might fill the same niche as Shulk though.

Ike might too, and he's considered better than Bowser post-patch. I'm actually probably going to be dropping Shulk for Ike, mostly because Shulk is very commitment-heavy in all of his moves, while Ike has some things that are actually safe.

Up to you though, of course