ZENITH 2014 - Aug 2-3 - Brooklyn, NY

[Mr Bushido]

cheap shoutouts / apologies i owe to some people, im not in montreal yet so i will do this quick

shoutouts:
- first goes to revan and his family. thanks to you guys i have been able to make it to zenith after having cancelled my registration and completely giving up on even going. you are all really nice people with a soothing household (cause cats), though your grey dog is too scary. thanks for the housing, the ride and although you didn't admit it, the wait on sunday morning so I could play my top8 matches
- to rob stone for lending me his controller during top8
- to firo for somehow only getting 9th
- to clubba for the hotel
- to boom for letting me win yolo tournament
- to wizzy, i ****ing love you man. i was in a hurry sunday morning so we didnt get to hang out as much as i wished to. at least we got to play in tournament and that was cool. hope lawn chair can make it next time and all us BROS can hang together
- to jimmy joe and peach for still making it on sunday
- to bcow for s tier commentary

couple apologies
- to superboomfan. i completely forgot about teams on sunday morning, and left before we played grand finals. i feel so stupid. i swear, it wasnt even in the back of my head before we were already way back in Manhattan. at least you and javi pulled it off. if you ever want to team with me again i'll be sure im not out of time first (though we were supposed to finish them on saturday soo). playing firo/nintendude made me realize how important it is to have team chemistry, and for that reason i will start playing more teams online. again, really sorry and i promise that wont happen again
- to rob stone, for stealing his controller
- to kero, for not giving my all in our set. i wanted a fox vs pika rematch from polybash, and i could have just asked for one in friendlies. i know how good you are and i should have just tried to win from the start. when i did switch to kirby, i was being pretty gay, taunting and all that. im sincerely sorry if you felt insulted by any of that, it was pretty stupid of me and i promise that the next time we play in tournament, i will try my best from the start.

 

[Battlecow]

Shoutouts to kero and wizzy for being real real good, to Revan for being the homie, to Jimmy/Cobr/Solo for commentating with me (it was a blast from start to finish) to clubba for carrying me, to Chicago for being themselves and making the entire trip hilarious, to Firo for housing me

I felt like I actually played pretty well--everyone's just really good at this game now and my good-playing self deserves about a 13th place, give or take. Rough times but I guess that's a good thing. I'm going to try to step it up, put in more of the good hours of training that I had in the month leading up to Zenith, and hopefully play even better at apex and future tourneys.

Glad you guys enjoyed my commentary, the kind words mean a lot and I think I'll do even better at Apex.

Props to Solo for not only alting, but using my reputation to deceive people into thinking it was me. Though I'd never put my location as FL lol.

You are a hero in my book. Right behind known alter Prince.

Did his alting ruin the tourney, guys? battlecattle? Your own region alts, how does that make you feel?

Solo contacted the TO's and made sure that he was seeded properly, because he is not a chode. Come to Apex so that I can chew you out in person for being this dumb.

 

[Han Solo]

Karajan looked at the registration list and saw my name. If he hadn't, no one would have ever known I was coming...

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

- to kero, for not giving my all in our set. i wanted a fox vs pika rematch from polybash, and i could have just asked for one in friendlies. i know how good you are and i should have just tried to win from the start. when i did switch to kirby, i was being pretty gay, taunting and all that. im sincerely sorry if you felt insulted by any of that, it was pretty stupid of me and i promise that the next time we play in tournament, i will try my best from the start.

you shoulda done yoshi

 

[KeroKeroppi]

had a lot of fun this weekend

good games everybody

so i did EXACTLY what I said i wouldn't do vs boom and lost my composure lol

oh well

just one of the THOUSAND things i need to work on before apex

i just watched all of the games and noticed a LOT of things i need to fix

i'm hella sloppy lmao

don't worry tho

i'm gonna train super hard and make these next few months count

being best in the world doesn't happen over night

i'll be thrashing on you n00bs even harder soon enough

as far as shout outs go, i'll probably post some later

way too lazy now lol

thanks for all the kind words guys

it really means a lot

and z

there's really no need to apologize lmao

i was not insulted or disrespected (or whatever the **** word you used idr) at all lol

you're like my favorite smasher ever, playing you is always an honor<3

anyway

gotta go

peace out losers

oh and one more thing

maliki > cobr at commentating

 

[SheerMadness]

Solo contacted the TO's and made sure that he was seeded properly, because he is not a chode. Come to Apex so that I can chew you out in person for being this dumb.

Karajan looked at the registration list and saw my name. If he hadn't, no one would have ever known I was coming...

Pwned.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

sheer

had star king not flaked

maliki, a player who trains his ass off and loves this game, wouldn't have made it out of pools all because han solo thought it would be funny to enter as "varazers"

like i really like you dude, you're definitely one of my favorite players

but it's mind boggling to me that you can't see how alting is selfish

 

[clubbadubba]

He can see it. He just likes to continue these discussions past the point of logic because it amuses him.

 

[mixa]

america = freedom

 

[caneut]

sheer

had star king not flaked

maliki, a player who trains his *** off and loves this game, wouldn't have made it out of pools all because han solo thought it would be funny to enter as "varazers"

like i really like you dude, you're definitely one of my favorite players

but it's mind boggling to me that you can't see how alting is selfish

Solo contacted the TO's and made sure that he was seeded properly, because he is not a chode. Come to Apex so that I can chew you out in person for being this dumb.

 

[Cobrevolution]

don't be dumb on purpose cane. Scroll up

 

[Sedda]

@ mixa you and I, Apex, teams, double DK. LETS GO

 

[SheerMadness]

If being a proponent of random seeding makes me a sociopath so be it.

There are a lot of us in the gaming world. At least I have plenty of company.

 

[Cobrevolution]

i think we should definitely seed more randomly, because i really don't like tourneys to be "decided" ahead of time. there should be more opportunities for different players to face off. not really sure how to do it, though.

BUT alting doesn't introduce randomness everywhere, which is why i think it's an issue.

 

[mixa]

@ mixa you and I, Apex, teams, double DK. LETS GO

I've got 0 DK experience and -2 doubles experience.

 

[Mr Bushido]

you could make a +2 minute long compilation video of all the errors in kero vs z at zenith 2014

 

[mixa]

fㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ

 

[Mr Bushido]

ok

10oks

1ok

 

[mixa]

uㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ

 

[Mr Bushido]

ok

10oks

1ok

 

[mixa]

z ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ

 

[lord narwhal]

i think we should definitely seed more randomly, because i really don't like tourneys to be "decided" ahead of time. there should be more opportunities for different players to face off. not really sure how to do it, though.

BUT alting doesn't introduce randomness everywhere, which is why i think it's an issue.

so wouldn't that mean everyone is in the wrong EXCEPT for sheer?
I applaud you sheer and your desire to do what's right in the face of the senseless adversity from this senseless community. One day you'll be remembered as a martyr for proper brackets.

(I'm barely kidding at all. I think you're all a bunch of babies).

 

[caneut]

We don't want to watch noobs on stream get ****ing rekt. We had 5.500 top viewers during top-8? Yeah, good step in the, "We want to be taken seriously, and not get ****ty timeslots."

Maybe amatuer bracket?????????

 

[Cobrevolution]

i do not see how that would make everyone else in the wrong.

basically, i wouldn't have serpentine-seeded the pools, and as a result, there would be no predetermined 2v3 seed matchups in bracket, and no predetermined WQ.

there would just be 3 groups of people - 1 seeds, 2 seeds and 3 seeds. give the top 8 seeds byes and place the 2 seeds and 3 seeds in the first round.

 

[Fireblaster]

there would just be 3 groups of people - 1 seeds, 2 seeds and 3 seeds. give the top 8 seeds byes and place the 2 seeds and 3 seeds in the first round.

Isn't that exactly how zenith's bracket was made

 

[Cobrevolution]

Isn't that exactly how zenith's bracket was made

no, it was serpentine seeding.

Pool 1 - Highest 1 Seed, Lowest 2 Seed, Highest 3 Seed
Pool 2 - 2nd highest 1 seed, 2nd lowest 2 seed, 2nd highest 3 seed
Pool 3 so on and so forth...pool 8 featured lowest 1 seed vs highest 2 seed vs lowest 3 seed.

as a result, the bracket was built with those parameters in mind. so boom, being 1st overall by SEEDING, was going to be placed in the i position in bracket. wizzy, being 2nd overall, was going to be placed in the M position.

yes, the zenith bracket did have an 8 man 1st seed bye round with all the 2s and 3s playing - but it was already determined who was going where based on where you were seeded in pools ahead of time. aka: this specific pool seed was DEFINITELY going to play this other specific pool seed. someone in pool 2 was gonna play someone in pool 3 in that top position.

why not randomize it so that any 2 seed can play any 3 seed?

 

[Olikus]

I've got 0 DK experience and -2 doubles experience.

Then you are teaming with me instead.

 

[clubbadubba]

no, it was serpentine seeding.

Pool 1 - Highest 1 Seed, Lowest 2 Seed, Highest 3 Seed
Pool 2 - 2nd highest 1 seed, 2nd lowest 2 seed, 2nd highest 3 seed
Pool 3 so on and so forth...pool 8 featured lowest 1 seed vs highest 2 seed vs lowest 3 seed.

as a result, the bracket was built with those parameters in mind. so boom, being 1st overall by SEEDING, was going to be placed in the i position in bracket. wizzy, being 2nd overall, was going to be placed in the M position.

yes, the zenith bracket did have an 8 man 1st seed bye round with all the 2s and 3s playing - but it was already determined who was going where based on where you were seeded in pools ahead of time. aka: this specific pool seed was DEFINITELY going to play this other specific pool seed. someone in pool 2 was gonna play someone in pool 3 in that top position.

why not randomize it so that any 2 seed can play any 3 seed?

I think this is a pretty inconsequential change. Was your only issue that we knew what the potential bracket match-ups were going to be? That is pretty avoidable by not releasing the bracket ahead of time. Randomizing doesn't really do much except keep us guessing longer. If that's the only concern then isn't it just as easy to not look at the bracket?

What you might be trying to get at is that its not fair that certain 2 seeds play impossible match-ups (like boom), while other 2 seeds play more reasonable early match-ups based entirely on their initial seeding. But then again, the match-ups are only more "impossible" or "reasonable" if the seeding is more or less right to begin with, and if the seeding is right then that is how it should be done. Seed 1 should always be set up to play Seed 16 in a round of 16.

 

[SheerMadness]

Completely random brackets. No seeding.

Remove all potential for human bias.

Best 2 players still end up in Grand Finals.

Sheer won't have to alt. Thank you.

 

[clubbadubba]

and that's about all that can be guaranteed. With seeding the best 2 players still end up in gf, and the rest of the placings will be more accurate as well. even poor seeding gives more accurate placings than random seeding.

 

[Annex]

shoutouts:
- first off, shoutouts to SK taking care of that real ****. Good luck + come back soon
- SECOND OFF, shoutouts to athens... You were supposedly coming to zenith, right? but nobody saw you there and "@AthensHorseParty was last seen: Friday at 11:18 PM". That's a long drive. Huge scary. Let us know man

...

- shoutouts to komo firo and bloodpeach for housing my ungrateful ass and stinking up your pads (with that dairy though)
- shoutouts to EVERYONE I got to play
- but especially you koroshiyo guys. the love for the game and the fun you have playing it is infectious. you're all a blast to play, even when you 5-stock me every match
- shoutouts to trashbags being used like street cones and subway rats eating ketchup packets. I<3NY. being able to park is for scrubs. ex dee.
- shoutouts to the buzzed yolo and studstill teams yolo
- shoutouts to battlecattle for putting up with my sass and offering to buy me cocaine. what a sweetheart. huge fan
- obvious shoutouts to those mexicans and knite
- and of course shoutouts to my sponsors baby pickles and cheese. you guys rock my world

 

[Shears]

@AthensHorseParty was there for pools, I played him, but idk what happened afterwards. The last I saw him he was on his computer.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

@ S SheerMadness doesnt realize that he isn't really following in his idol's footsteps.

There are 2 kinds of tournaments in Japan: Amateur and professional.

Prince does not alt in professional tournaments.

Because it is impossible to do so. Random names don't get invited.

We should make Apex an invitational, say 64 ppl, and then have an amateur bracket on the side for everyone else. People who do well in the amateur bracket get invites into the pro bracket next year.

If you feel like alting in an amateur bracket, go right ahead.

 

[Fireblaster]

no, it was serpentine seeding.

Pool 1 - Highest 1 Seed, Lowest 2 Seed, Highest 3 Seed
Pool 2 - 2nd highest 1 seed, 2nd lowest 2 seed, 2nd highest 3 seed
Pool 3 so on and so forth...pool 8 featured lowest 1 seed vs highest 2 seed vs lowest 3 seed.

as a result, the bracket was built with those parameters in mind. so boom, being 1st overall by SEEDING, was going to be placed in the i position in bracket. wizzy, being 2nd overall, was going to be placed in the M position.

yes, the zenith bracket did have an 8 man 1st seed bye round with all the 2s and 3s playing - but it was already determined who was going where based on where you were seeded in pools ahead of time. aka: this specific pool seed was DEFINITELY going to play this other specific pool seed. someone in pool 2 was gonna play someone in pool 3 in that top position.

why not randomize it so that any 2 seed can play any 3 seed?

Like clubba said, all that means is that the bracket shouldn't be released ahead of time, which I agree with. Then the order of pools could also be randomized so nobody except the TO knows which seed is which and that's functionally the same as what you're asking without having to resort to actual random seeding.

The thing about the pool seeding used at zenith is that it's probably the best way to avoid a "predetermined" bracket like you actually want. Remember Karajan's post about case A and case B? Case A is what was used for zenith. Case B is the worse form of seeding because then there is a consistent and signifcant jump between all seeds in a pool and almost zero chances for upsets.

Since case A and case B are opposite cases and you want to lean towards the least "predetermined" bracket, then case A is what you want the most and case B you want the least. Therefore, any sort of more "randomized" seeding is closer to case B than case A will ever be.

Q.E.D. Case A seeding is better than randomized seeding

 

[Nintendude]

why not randomize it so that any 2 seed can play any 3 seed?

Because one of the constraints of transitioning from pools to bracket is that every pod of players should have no two players from the same pool.

 

[Sedda]

I've got 0 DK experience and -2 doubles experience.

thatll make things more fun

 

[Cobrevolution]

Was your only issue that we knew what the potential bracket match-ups were going to be?

nah, the knowledge wasn't what bothered me, it's more limiting the potential group of people you can play. that's also the issue i have with bracket pools.

you had a potential 7 people playing another potential 7, but it was more like, a more than likely two playing a likely two. does that make sense?

in the first spot, it could've been anyone in pool 2 vs anyone in pool 3. the likelihood was either of the two lower seeds in 2 playing either of the two lower seeds in 3. my preference would be any 3 seed playing any 2 seed.

Seed 1 should always be set up to play Seed 16 in a round of 16.

i completely agree, but we don't have a system of seeding people past a certain position. a ridiculous amount of 2 and 3 seeds could take sets off each other. my initial grouping was just 1 seeds, 2 seeds and 3 seeds, not numbered all the way down. look at seeds 10 through 16 (javi, you, tommy, revan, bcow, ceasar, combo) - that's a pretty rough decision to list them in order. realistically, tommy could beat everyone there - but so could javi. so could revan. etcetc.

i think this is a good kind of variance. it comes down to - why is this specific 16 seed 16? it makes sense if you have records, but it's unfair to judge and it's terribly difficult to separate like that. in my opinion, anyway.

The thing about the pool seeding used at zenith is that it's probably the best way to avoid a "predetermined" bracket like you actually want.

well, the best way to avoid a predetermined bracket is to not split by pool seeding and randomize the placement of the 1 seeds in the second round as well as the 2 and 3 seeds in the first round, isn't it? then there's no predetermination at all, except whether or not you will have a first round match (which is based off your performance in pools).

why not randomize it so that any 2 seed can play any 3 seed?

and i feel like this can be done without pre-seeding pools in the manner it was done and plugging names in.


i'm not proposing a change in seeding for all future events or anything, i just don't really agree with the amount of interaction and separation that occurs. but if everyone thinks it's best, hey, what can you do, right?

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

nah, the knowledge wasn't what bothered me, it's more limiting the potential group of people you can play. that's also the issue i have with bracket pools.

you had a potential 7 people playing another potential 7, but it was more like, a more than likely two playing a likely two. does that make sense?

in the first spot, it could've been anyone in pool 2 vs anyone in pool 3. the likelihood was either of the two lower seeds in 2 playing either of the two lower seeds in 3. my preference would be any 3 seed playing any 2 seed.


i completely agree, but we don't have a system of seeding people past a certain position. a ridiculous amount of 2 and 3 seeds could take sets off each other. my initial grouping was just 1 seeds, 2 seeds and 3 seeds, not numbered all the way down. look at seeds 10 through 16 (javi, you, tommy, revan, bcow, ceasar, combo) - that's a pretty rough decision to list them in order. realistically, tommy could beat everyone there - but so could javi. so could revan. etcetc.

i think this is a good kind of variance. it comes down to - why is this specific 16 seed 16? it makes sense if you have records, but it's unfair to judge and it's terribly difficult to separate like that. in my opinion, anyway.


well, the best way to avoid a predetermined bracket is to not split by pool seeding and randomize the placement of the 1 seeds in the second round as well as the 2 and 3 seeds in the first round, isn't it? then there's no predetermination at all, except whether or not you will have a first round match (which is based off your performance in pools).


and i feel like this can be done without pre-seeding pools in the manner it was done and plugging names in.


i'm not proposing a change in seeding for all future events or anything, i just don't really agree with the amount of interaction and separation that occurs. but if everyone thinks it's best, hey, what can you do, right?

pls use math

 

[Cobrevolution]

i can't math that well

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

ok i will edit math into this post

This is the process I think should be used for a tournament that uses round-robin pools.

Get members of the community to submit their seedings for all the entrants. Average the seedings out to get the seeded list of entrants to be used.

Pool Seeding Rules:

The number of pools, P, should be a power of 2.
Top X players in each pool come out => 2^X entrants ( = N )

1) How to build a Perfect Pool: N players make it out of pools, then the player who isn't seeded in top N that should be given the best chance to make top N should be the player seeded N+1. This is why we use the case A that fireblaster is referring to. In order to accomplish this, if there are P pools, then the top P players go into separate pools, and player P+1 goes into the same pool as P. This also minimizes the differences in the total value of the seedings of each pool.

You end up with
POOL 1: 1, 2P, 2P+1, ...
POOL 2: 2, 2P-1, 2P+2, ...
POOL 3: 3, 2P-2, 2P+3, ...
POOL ..: ..., ..., ...
POOL P: P, P+1, 3P, ...
​

2A) Forget perfect seeding: If any of the top N + P seeded players from the same crew / region are playing each other then they can swap places with adjacent seeds.

​

2B) The players seeded worse than N+P may be rearranged as much as needed in order to avoid region / crew seeding.​

Seeding the bracket from the pool results:

Just use the way the pools were seeded. Seed 1 is who got first in pool 1. Seed P is who got first in pool P. Seed P+1 is who got 2nd in pool P. etc.

Now take that bracket, and adjust according to these rules:

No more region / crew adjustments.
Do not move any players that get a bye.
Move players so that in a perfectly played out bracket, the number of people from the same pool playing each other is minimized.
When making adjustments to satisfy the above, minimize the distance that people move away from their original bracket seeds.
​

Thats how it is done. Now which part do you have a problem with?

​