Social Zelda Social - Still the queen of Smash...and maybe queen of low tier for a decade, too. Shall we make it two?

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Me, a non-switch owner reading the in-depth discussion of one character in one game for one console

 

[Mad Duck]

Yesterday I played a lot of Ultimate (I don't own a Switch yet) and I can't believe how comfortable I feel with this Zelda,my friends now say that with the buffs and the new Phantom my playstyle turned 100% more obnoxious and annoying and now they hate me

 

[DDRC]

I mained zelda for the first few days and i think shes pretty fun, redesign is great and sdi being nerfed makes her feel much more viable (coming from melee). I just hope that someday, somehow zelda can land on a higher spot on the tier list

 

[Rickster]

I personally feel like Zelda is like 10x more cancerous now. Now that she can actually play neutral people have to deal with all her bs lmao

I rarely have people in quickplay stay for more than one match now. And if they win once they usually teabag then leave

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Don't worry about not performing as well as you'd hoped to. When you get really nervous you will always second guess your decision making which leads to poor play.
I don't really know how you feel towards the game competitively, but for me I am not taking this game 100% seriously. If I was I'd have likely switched to someone like Lucina or Inkling by now. Almost all pressure you feel during a match is ultimately being put on yourself by yourself. It's easier said that done, but try to ditch made-up expectations of yourself. It can affect your play by:
a) underestimating an opponent ("this guy just spams dash attack and smashes, if I don't win this I'm bad" or "I've rarely lost this matchup so I should win") which leads you to making careless misplays
and b) Because you believe you should win, you can also end up focusing too hard and putting wayyy too much pressure on yourself. This often happens when you're playing with the first mindset but then realise you're in risk of losing. You immediately switch gears because you strongly believe you should be winning the game, and the fear of losing pressures you.

Take each game as it comes. Ultimate is young, and there's a TON of things to learn. You already have the right mindset for improving and getting better which is honestly the hardest part to fix when it comes to trying to get better at something.

Absolutely. Everything you just said, has been all me. I've struggled a lot with ego issues in 2016, and it was one of my worst year in Smash in spite of my best success (won my first tournament). I used to take things very personally. Couldn't even play For Glory, since I would take anything personally. I got the bad habit of getting hit by things that "shouldn't" be, so I got frustrated and played worse. Didn't help people could put the little pseudo text box-like messages via tags (something I'm glad Free Play/Elite don't have).

The other day, after the tournament, I deleted my usual "Oz" tag and switched to "NO EGO". It's ridiculous how much better you can be when you're cold and don't have any emotion and or intruding thoughts.

 

[ScottTape]

I personally feel like Zelda is like 10x more cancerous now. Now that she can actually play neutral people have to deal with all her bs lmao

I rarely have people in quickplay stay for more than one match now. And if they win once they usually teabag then leave

I have this same problem which can be really frustrating when I’m playing a matchup I want to work on, like Chrom or something.

I try to not zone with specials constantly, but even so I get why Zelda is probably annoying to play against.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I personally feel like Zelda is like 10x more cancerous now. Now that she can actually play neutral people have to deal with all her bs lmao

I rarely have people in quickplay stay for more than one match now. And if they win once they usually teabag then leave

I play a little different than other Zeldas. I'm far more aggressive, and literally ever use Phantom. That said, I think I'm fairly decent and beat most of my matches, so I don't know why a lot of these people don't stick around for the rematch.

 

[ScottTape]

I play a little different than other Zeldas. I'm far more aggressive, and literally ever use Phantom. That said, I think I'm fairly decent and beat most of my matches, so I don't know why a lot of these people don't stick around for the rematch.

What are your main tools for approach in neutral? Also what’s your most used edge guard?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

What are your main tools for approach in neutral? Also what’s your most used edge guard?

I do a lot of dash dances and try to bait attack whiffs, which means I tend to go for Dash Attack punishes 90% of the time. It's an amazing tool, as it does decent damage, it's one of our quickest moves and even catches under a few hitboxes deceptively (given the timing). I should work on my juggling better, but I also try to mix these in to stuff out aerial approaches. Our juggle game is no short of amazing with tools like U-Tilt, N-air and U-air. I don't find myself relying on grabs, very much. They feel short-ranged, and people can throw out attacks soon after landing an aerial (which you can't grab armour through).

I also use a lot of N-air, but I don't always use it right. The idea is to catch certain jumps and blindspots, but it won't beat many attacks head-on. It's something I do wrong.

As for edgeguarding, I'd ideally only use Phantom in that situation. I personally just try to D-air them. And when they're trying to get back up on the ledge, it's a mix of reading a getup option with F-Smash, jumps with U-Smash and ocassionally reading a jump and getting a Kick (kind of suck at it, though).

 

[Codebox]

I personally feel it's much easier for Zelda to do things now. There are still struggles for sure (looking at you Megaman, ROB, Speedies etc), but she's not a walking sandbag and can at least do something, it's all about having the space to do it. I'm no expert by any means and I'm still learning the ropes (technical skill, mechanics etc) but based on playing Zelda since Melee it feels nice to at least do something. (Except when landing, Zelda still can't land) Also it's nice to have a pesudo-Melee kick (now all she needs is two LK SH and she's set for trapping)

What personal buffs do you guys think would complete Zelda? You think our girl has a chance this time if the right buffs are applied?

 

[Codebox]

Speaking of which does anyone still find Dins Fire hard to land? It could be just me, but I think Dins should activate much faster and end sooner (or at least act the moment it's casted) I also wish it had the large radius of Brawl Dins, but eh it's still the only good non PM iteration of this move. lol

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Yesterday I played a lot of Ultimate (I don't own a Switch yet) and I can't believe how comfortable I feel with this Zelda,my friends now say that with the buffs and the new Phantom my playstyle turned 100% more obnoxious and annoying and now they hate me

Fuiste al torneo.

 

[Mad Duck]

Fuiste al torneo.

No,no pude ir jajaja. Seguramente al de la semana que viene sí.

 

[BJN39]

Speaking of which does anyone still find Dins Fire hard to land? It could be just me, but I think Dins should activate much faster and end sooner (or at least act the moment it's casted) I also wish it had the large radius of Brawl Dins, but eh it's still the only good non PM iteration of this move. lol

No yeah it’s still hard to land. The hitbox actually did get a base size increase that I’m sure most people have felt, but the set distance you’re forced to cast at minimum and the release startup make it pretty underwhelming. We keep saying it’ll be an airdodge force/trap but I struggle to see how it’ll be effective when the hitbox just...misses...Mind you it STILL can be clanked by aerials...It doesn’t have freefall now, but it’s not good enough at hitting people that using offstage can be a liability.

I’m always surprised at people trying to use this move so often as though it’s suddenly buffed and useable. It’s really still not good. I suppose that people are still getting a feel for playing her optimally, and I think Din’s will fade out of use more outside of well-spotted times.

Fun fact: people in comp commonly rated Din’s Fire as one of the worst projectiles in Brawl. And we’re talking about its best iteration. I’d probably give back no freefall to have Brawl’s Din’s tbh. We know better how to use it and can avoid falling offstage tbh

 

[Codebox]

No yeah it’s still hard to land. The hitbox actually did get a base size increase that I’m sure most people have felt, but the set distance you’re forced to cast at minimum and the release startup make it pretty underwhelming. We keep saying it’ll be an airdodge force/trap but I struggle to see how it’ll be effective when the hitbox just...misses...Mind you it STILL can be clanked by aerials...It doesn’t have freefall now, but it’s not good enough at hitting people that using offstage can be a liability.

I’m always surprised at people trying to use this move so often as though it’s suddenly buffed and useable. It’s really still not good. I suppose that people are still getting a feel for playing her optimally, and I think Din’s will fade out of use more outside of well-spotted times.

Fun fact: people in comp commonly rated Din’s Fire as one of the worst projectiles in Brawl. And we’re talking about its best iteration. I’d probably give back no freefall to have Brawl’s Din’s tbh. We know better how to use it and can avoid falling offstage tbh

I had a general feeling there. All the more reason to scream for Dins buffs, if the startup on casting were much faster and ended the moment before it exploded (as well as having the short distance last in front rather than a great deal away) it'll be much more effective. imagine falling off the stage and dins right infront of you to catch recoveries while retaining the overall sourspot with decreased lag it'd be great for edge guarding instead of just guessing.

Brawl Dins wasn't good, but with Ultimate's mechanics and having the ability to air dodge once with the radius size and speed I feel like it could work for this engine. Oh yeah and make it immune from being clanked by Aeriels.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

also am I the only one not seeing Zelda's pivot grab range. It just looks average. If anything moderately janky happens, it's because your opponent is likely extending their hurtbox.

 

[StoicPhantom]

What would you guys say are MUs Zelda has an overall okay or decent time with? I've seen her struggle helplessly against Megaman, that MU is just a big no for Zelda. lol What do you guys think about actually having kicks that work this time?

I think anyone that lacks range or event horizon levels of speed. She probably does well against the majority of the cast, just has issues with top tiers like everybody else. I think she goes even with a lot of sword characters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't call it a "decent" MU. There hasn't been a MU that I have thought "This is impossible" but Shulk, Marth/Lucina, Chrom, Inkling, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Meta Knight, Pit, Isabelle, and possibly Megaman(not sure yet) are all her definitively bad MUs I feel. Anyone outside those is a good or ok MU, I think.

Having a move that can KO at 40 at the ledge and 80 center stage is pretty good. It's not as difficult as Marth's, but still retains the same power and with the added benefit of no one watching for it. LK being fairly quick this time, means any mistake the opponent makes is going to be a stock or at least an edgeguard situation.

Online I've had a decent time against K Rool. Most heavies except Ganon and DK to be honest. I can't beat them, but it's probably because of my skill more than anything. Yet, even then I still get close to beating both of them. I've also had a decent time against Snake.

The character I'm struggling most against is Ike. His attacks are so fast and strong I have such a hard time creating space. I feel like it's 0-100 in just seconds.

Ganon can be completely walled and juggled with Phantom and he is very easily edgeguarded. DK is really good in this game, but does lack disjoints and is one of the only heavys that still have traditional heavy weaknesses. Carefully space your disjoints and watch for dash attack, Dair, Fair, and Side-B and you should be fine. Phantom works well on the ground and Up-Tilt and Up-air will keep him pressured in the air. He's bad at landing, so if he's recovering, try heading to where he is going instead(top platform usually). His DI is really good, but lacks real landing options, so just keep out of Dair and Fair range and you can easily juggle him. Up-B is much better than before, so watch for surprise Up-Bs in neutral. When edgeguarding you need to be directly above him, since his DI allows him some vertical climb, otherwise he will hit you.

Ike has long lasting hitboxs, so you can often punish OoS. The trick is to figure which aerial he is using and try to space around that. You can duck under most of his aerials, so long as they aren't Nair and Dair. Since his aerials swing from side to side, simply attack when it is going to the other side. Make sure to punish any recovery attempts and edgeguard him. If you time and space it right(hit his back) Nayru's Love can stage spike his Up-B recovery and I think if you hit him right, you can spin him around and ruin his recovery.

So for example Ike's Fair starts at the top and swings down. Ike seems to want to start it up beforehand, then DI into you. If you dash under him and Up-Tilt, Zelda's Up-Tilt starts in front of her and swings back. You can hit his legs and setup a juggle situation. Apply that principle to his other aerials and you should be able to slip in some attacks, even with that wall of hitboxs.

I have heard Snake is decent for Zelda since he's also defensive. Just be wary of C4's and Grenades though, as it can limit Phantom usage. Not sure how much is true though. Especially considering Snake's excellent trapping abilities. I have heard Zelda is good against K Rool, again not for sure on that.

Snake's projectiles aren't much of a problem when it comes to Phantom usage. They're too slow and you will likely have it released before they can actually hit. If he holds the grenades, that's just asking for an Up-B punish. It's his normals that are the problem and dash attack can go through even an active Phantom and hit you. Snake can go toe-to-toe with Zelda on his normals alone and his weight and the ability to blow himself up, if he is about to get hit, means he can win through a war of attrition alone.

K. Rool is a good MU for Zelda, but his projectile can make things a little difficult in neutral and he has enough cheese to sometimes end things in his favor. He is powerful and Zelda is light, so jank can sometimes swing things in his favor.

I personally feel like Zelda is like 10x more cancerous now. Now that she can actually play neutral people have to deal with all her bs lmao

I rarely have people in quickplay stay for more than one match now. And if they win once they usually teabag then leave

In the last two weeks I have run into over 10 lag switchers, 3 cord pullers, numerous rage quitters, and few rematches and we are approaching FG Little Mac status, I feel.

Speaking of which does anyone still find Dins Fire hard to land?

You may need a little more practice with it. It's very good for edgeguarding and forcing air-dodges. Try to aim where your opponent is going to be, not where they are currently at. Try to place it where your opponent is going to need to jump or Up-B to successfully recover. If you knock your opponent off stage without any jumps, they can only DI or Up-B to recover. Even if they successfully air-dodge it and that is actually incredibly difficult to do safely, the endlag is low enough that you can punish the air-dodge. With characters with bad recoveries, even the sour-spot is enough to finish the job.

A lot of it is reading DI and understanding character options and recovery habits. Pay close attention to how your opponent likes to recover and learn what each character needs to do to recover. My Phantom video in the video thread, primarily deals with Phantom, but there is quite a lot of examples of me exploiting recoveries with Din's Fire, so check that out if you are interested in some visual examples.

also am I the only one not seeing Zelda's pivot grab range. It just looks average. If anything moderately janky happens, it's because your opponent is likely extending their hurtbox.

I think her grab is wonky in general and range has nothing to do with it. I've been standing right next to my opponent watching her hands go into them and the game just goes lolno and I get punished.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think her grab is wonky in general and range has nothing to do with it. I've been standing right next to my opponent watching her hands go into them and the game just goes lolno and I get punished.

Grab and Pivot Grab aren't exactly the same, though. But what you mention, is another reason as to why I don't just come up to someone and grab them unless they actually just sit in shield all day. This is a reason why I would start throwing in tomohawks.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Grab and Pivot Grab aren't exactly the same, though. But what you mention, is another reason as to why I don't just come up to someone and grab them unless they actually just sit in shield all day. This is a reason why I would start throwing in tomohawks.

I know, I just meant that it doesn't matter how long or short of range or what kind of grab, if it refuses to register you're screwed. And yeah, that is why I don't grab, unless they're in shield. The way and situations it fails in, lead me to believe there is something more than just lag or jank at work here and I'm wondering if her grab is actually bugged.

 

[Codebox]

I think anyone that lacks range or event horizon levels of speed. She probably does well against the majority of the cast, just has issues with top tiers like everybody else. I think she goes even with a lot of sword characters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't call it a "decent" MU. There hasn't been a MU that I have thought "This is impossible" but Shulk, Marth/Lucina, Chrom, Inkling, Mewtwo, Yoshi, Meta Knight, Pit, Isabelle, and possibly Megaman(not sure yet) are all her definitively bad MUs I feel. Anyone outside those is a good or ok MU, I think.

Having a move that can KO at 40 at the ledge and 80 center stage is pretty good. It's not as difficult as Marth's, but still retains the same power and with the added benefit of no one watching for it. LK being fairly quick this time, means any mistake the opponent makes is going to be a stock or at least an edgeguard situation.

Ganon can be completely walled and juggled with Phantom and he is very easily edgeguarded. DK is really good in this game, but does lack disjoints and is one of the only heavys that still have traditional heavy weaknesses. Carefully space your disjoints and watch for dash attack, Dair, Fair, and Side-B and you should be fine. Phantom works well on the ground and Up-Tilt and Up-air will keep him pressured in the air. He's bad at landing, so if he's recovering, try heading to where he is going instead(top platform usually). His DI is really good, but lacks real landing options, so just keep out of Dair and Fair range and you can easily juggle him. Up-B is much better than before, so watch for surprise Up-Bs in neutral. When edgeguarding you need to be directly above him, since his DI allows him some vertical climb, otherwise he will hit you.

Ike has long lasting hitboxs, so you can often punish OoS. The trick is to figure which aerial he is using and try to space around that. You can duck under most of his aerials, so long as they aren't Nair and Dair. Since his aerials swing from side to side, simply attack when it is going to the other side. Make sure to punish any recovery attempts and edgeguard him. If you time and space it right(hit his back) Nayru's Love can stage spike his Up-B recovery and I think if you hit him right, you can spin him around and ruin his recovery.

So for example Ike's Fair starts at the top and swings down. Ike seems to want to start it up beforehand, then DI into you. If you dash under him and Up-Tilt, Zelda's Up-Tilt starts in front of her and swings back. You can hit his legs and setup a juggle situation. Apply that principle to his other aerials and you should be able to slip in some attacks, even with that wall of hitboxs.

Snake's projectiles aren't much of a problem when it comes to Phantom usage. They're too slow and you will likely have it released before they can actually hit. If he holds the grenades, that's just asking for an Up-B punish. It's his normals that are the problem and dash attack can go through even an active Phantom and hit you. Snake can go toe-to-toe with Zelda on his normals alone and his weight and the ability to blow himself up, if he is about to get hit, means he can win through a war of attrition alone.

K. Rool is a good MU for Zelda, but his projectile can make things a little difficult in neutral and he has enough cheese to sometimes end things in his favor. He is powerful and Zelda is light, so jank can sometimes swing things in his favor.

In the last two weeks I have run into over 10 lag switchers, 3 cord pullers, numerous rage quitters, and few rematches and we are approaching FG Little Mac status, I feel.

You may need a little more practice with it. It's very good for edgeguarding and forcing air-dodges. Try to aim where your opponent is going to be, not where they are currently at. Try to place it where your opponent is going to need to jump or Up-B to successfully recover. If you knock your opponent off stage without any jumps, they can only DI or Up-B to recover. Even if they successfully air-dodge it and that is actually incredibly difficult to do safely, the endlag is low enough that you can punish the air-dodge. With characters with bad recoveries, even the sour-spot is enough to finish the job.

A lot of it is reading DI and understanding character options and recovery habits. Pay close attention to how your opponent likes to recover and learn what each character needs to do to recover. My Phantom video in the video thread, primarily deals with Phantom, but there is quite a lot of examples of me exploiting recoveries with Din's Fire, so check that out if you are interested in some visual examples.


I think her grab is wonky in general and range has nothing to do with it. I've been standing right next to my opponent watching her hands go into them and the game just goes lolno and I get punished.

I question if Zelda will fall off in usage as the game progresses. It seems the same thing will still happen. Considering she had no MUs in any previous game aside from Melee. Pika/Pichu, Peach/Daisy and ROB would also be a nightmare. We need more options to stop speed or aggressors. Zelda's grabs are inconsistent with me too, more range would be nice. lol Ganon is a good MU? Zelda loses the up close combat to him.

 

[Aussie1024]

Ganon can be completely walled and juggled with Phantom and he is very easily edgeguarded. DK is really good in this game, but does lack disjoints and is one of the only heavys that still have traditional heavy weaknesses. Carefully space your disjoints and watch for dash attack, Dair, Fair, and Side-B and you should be fine. Phantom works well on the ground and Up-Tilt and Up-air will keep him pressured in the air. He's bad at landing, so if he's recovering, try heading to where he is going instead(top platform usually). His DI is really good, but lacks real landing options, so just keep out of Dair and Fair range and you can easily juggle him. Up-B is much better than before, so watch for surprise Up-Bs in neutral. When edgeguarding you need to be directly above him, since his DI allows him some vertical climb, otherwise he will hit you.

Ike has long lasting hitboxs, so you can often punish OoS. The trick is to figure which aerial he is using and try to space around that. You can duck under most of his aerials, so long as they aren't Nair and Dair. Since his aerials swing from side to side, simply attack when it is going to the other side. Make sure to punish any recovery attempts and edgeguard him. If you time and space it right(hit his back) Nayru's Love can stage spike his Up-B recovery and I think if you hit him right, you can spin him around and ruin his recovery.

So for example Ike's Fair starts at the top and swings down. Ike seems to want to start it up beforehand, then DI into you. If you dash under him and Up-Tilt, Zelda's Up-Tilt starts in front of her and swings back. You can hit his legs and setup a juggle situation. Apply that principle to his other aerials and you should be able to slip in some attacks, even with that wall of hitboxs.

I struggle with Ganon so much because he comes at me so quickly. I have so much trouble avoiding his attacks. I have a lot of trouble setting up Phantom because he's always coming at me so hard. Am I doing something wrong?

I'm always too aggressive against DK. I always underestimate what he can do. I always leave myself open to him attacking me. I don't know why but landing tilts, especially up are difficult for me against humans. I can never get it to hit without being punished. I gotta work on that.

Ike acts so fast with his attacks and movement it's so hard for me to react to it tbh. It aggravates me so much.

I deeply appreciate the advice, don't get me wrong, but I have so much trouble processing all these things so fast in the heat of battle. I've had this difficulty my whole time with the series (and with life in general). Sometimes I feel many steps behind this community that way since I have this trouble. Sorry if I'm bringing a bit of negativity to this. It's just how I have felt lately because I've struggled online with Zelda each time I reach 2.4 million GSP. I still wanna try to get better, but it feels like I always get hindered by a disability of processing stimuli and recognizing them on a repeated basis. Please excuse me for that.

Speaking of which does anyone still find Dins Fire hard to land?

It might just be you tbh. Like others before me have stated, it takes a while to learn to use it effectively. Its hitbox is kinda strange.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I know, I just meant that it doesn't matter how long or short of range or what kind of grab, if it refuses to register you're screwed. And yeah, that is why I don't grab, unless they're in shield. The way and situations it fails in, lead me to believe there is something more than just lag or jank at work here and I'm wondering if her grab is actually bugged.

You mentioned in my first days that you also don't rely on grab as much, because of the same reasons. It's hard to grab people that are throwning out aerials. Catching their landing just outside of the hitbox range can be pretty strict, even with Pivot Grab. Tomohawks would be a fine addition for me, because I find myself landing on people's shields with attacks, a lot. As we all know, Zelda doesn't have the best attacks on shield, and even Kick on shield can be punished by a lot of OoS options.

 

[Codebox]

No yeah it’s still hard to land. The hitbox actually did get a base size increase that I’m sure most people have felt, but the set distance you’re forced to cast at minimum and the release startup make it pretty underwhelming. We keep saying it’ll be an airdodge force/trap but I struggle to see how it’ll be effective when the hitbox just...misses...Mind you it STILL can be clanked by aerials...It doesn’t have freefall now, but it’s not good enough at hitting people that using offstage can be a liability.

I’m always surprised at people trying to use this move so often as though it’s suddenly buffed and useable. It’s really still not good. I suppose that people are still getting a feel for playing her optimally, and I think Din’s will fade out of use more outside of well-spotted times.

Fun fact: people in comp commonly rated Din’s Fire as one of the worst projectiles in Brawl. And we’re talking about its best iteration. I’d probably give back no freefall to have Brawl’s Din’s tbh. We know better how to use it and can avoid falling offstage tbh

Is Zelda's framedata better than previous entries?

 

[BJN39]

Is Zelda's framedata better than previous entries?

Well, yes, kind of. It’s probably close to the “best it's ever been,” but not exactly. Some moves are distinctly better now than they used to be. Dtilt/Utilt/Dash Attack/Ftilt all have less endlag than SSB4 and Brawl, and her landing lag has almost never been lower on aerials. But her frame data will never compare to Melee.

All of zelda’s smashes in Melee (and somewhat Brawl) used to be built on a slighlty different framework. Her Up/Down smash hit sooner and ended faster. Her fsmash ended considerably faster and was infamous in Melee/Brawl compared to many other smash attacks (it was comparable to MK’s Fsmash). Not to mention LKs. The design for them was drastically nerfed in SSB4, but before that they both were hit 8/5 FAF 36/33 in Melee and FAF 40/36 in Brawl, which was incredibly fast. Another design that now, would be quite useable.

On the other hand, her specials have pretty much never been better. nayru’s never really changed that much, but it is technically the fastest to hit now, and has intangibility lasting thru the first hit, which makes it solid. Dins Frame Data was better in Brawl (no other game compares for Frame Data there), Phantom obviously didn’t exist until SSB4, but it’s still quite a bit better compared (the release FAF is 7F sooner, release hits are quicker, charge is probably near 2x as fast), and FW seems to get better and better every game. (Used to take nearly a whole second to disappear, then in SSB4 it was like 24F, now it’s only 17F to disappear. Speed of travel is faster too.)

Grabs are obviously a bit better but also worse. Since SSB4, her Grab grabs is a tiny bit sooner, but the endlag was badly nerfed.

In conclusion it’s kind of a mix. Over time many of her moves were redesigned or retooled, leading to alterations in their frame data:
- Her smashes had endlag nerfs in SSB4 to follow a trend of “smashes, especially high KB ones, are slow”
- Up tilt followed the SSB4 trend of combo up tilts and was altered from a slow kill move to a fast move.
- LKs were nerfed because sweetspot moves were treated overall harshly in SSB4. (Zelda seemingly worst of all, but CF Knee was hit badly too.)
- Common sense buffs were given to specials each game.
- Tbh her tilts were really pointless moves in Melee and they’ve been given mew life in other iterations (but dtilt is once again pointless lmao)

I honestly think her overall shift in frame data is motherboard for the better or worse. Some of it is great, but other things are just so unforgivable and we’re teally uncalled for on a character that was consistently bad in every smash game at the time. Personal preference is that most of her newer-Game frame data buffs were not relevant enough while the old moves that got nerfed were more detrimental. Zelda honestly needs faster aerials, landing viable and SH viable aerials.

Edit: I realized just now this may have been a question solely on Din’s and I apologize if I made an essay answer to you about her frame data as a whole and not just dins ^^’

 

[StoicPhantom]

I question if Zelda will fall off in usage as the game progresses. It seems the same thing will still happen. Considering she had no MUs in any previous game aside from Melee. Pika/Pichu, Peach/Daisy and ROB would also be a nightmare. We need more options to stop speed or aggressors. Zelda's grabs are inconsistent with me too, more range would be nice. lol Ganon is a good MU? Zelda loses the up close combat to him.

Does she even have any usage in the first place?

Seriously though, I think Zelda will be for diehards and people who just really like her moveset or franchise. Not because she's bad(she's not) but because her learning curve is steep and you can do well with other characters with less effort. Why waste time losing a lot learning her neutral, when you can pick a sword character and Nair. Why would top players with a major on the line, pick a character with as much risk as her, when they could just pick Inkling or Chrom and blitz around, spamming hitboxs. I didn't expect people using her much going in and I definitely don't expect them using her much, now that I have a much better understanding of her. There are just better characters to pick up, in terms of immediately understanding them and doing well quickly.

Regarding stopping speed characters, I think that will come in the form of nerfs to them, rather than buffs for Zelda. They have a level of DI that lets them escape many of her traps and their disadvantage, in ways that the rest of the cast do not. Chrom's DI lets him get away with that recovery and actually makes it an asset instead. There are many situations that I have come across, where these characters got around things or did things solely on DI, that made it feel rather unfair. I don't think there is really any buffs or options, that Zelda can have, that will stop these guys from avoiding everything and still managing to DI back in for a hit. At least not anything reasonable.

I get the feeling it wasn't intentional and that Sakurai and crew didn't anticipate the level of DI shenanigans that are happening. Not just the ability to DI away from combo throws, think of how long that lets them live in terms of high percent and avoiding blast zones. I'm not going to be surprised if that mobility is first on the chopping block for those characters.

Gannon is definitely a good MU. Because he wins close combat, Phantom is essential for this MU. He doesn't have any real answers for it, other than his specials, and his aerial mobility is poor, so he can't just hop over it. So long as you properly space it, to avoid those specials, you can just sit back until he is in disadvantage. Gannon has no landing options, outside Dair and Wizard's Foot, and Up-air is disjointed and can beat them. He gets gimped hard off stage and his slow aerial mobility makes him fodder for Din's Fire and Phantom. He can spiked as is customary to do so on characters like him. Just don't mess up your timing or be ready to tech any potential stage spikes.

I struggle

If you haven't already, try playing those characters for a while yourself. Sometimes unsafe or laggy options aren't immediately noticeable to the naked eye. I used to feel the same way in the Ike MU, until I played as him and realized he has trouble safely approaching and dealing with campers. His aerials aren't lagless and properly timed OoS options can really shut them down.

I went a bit into Ganon in the last paragraph in my response to Codebox above. Learn the distance and spacing with his specials and charge Phantom outside that. Wizard's Foot starts up quick, but peters out a bit toward the end. Try to keep Phantom around there and if he starts it before you have a chance to release, release Phantom, which should slow him down long enough for you to move and punish. Ganondorf has lagless moves, but only some of them are, so learn those and be ready to avoid them. Ultimately, you just keep a healthy distance between the two of you and you can take to the air if you run out of ground. He's laggy in the air, so give yourself plenty of space and escape to the platforms/other side of the stage. Ultimately you just need to put in disadvantage a few times, so perfect Zelda's advantage state as much as possible.

Don't treat DK as a heavy anymore. He is way too fast for that now. Rather, put him in the same category as the other fast characters like Fox or Falcon. Use spacing of your disjoints to beat out his range and speed, instead of trying to aggro him yourself. Dash attack is something you need to watch for, when he is charging you or wants to approach. Otherwise, learn the range of his attacks and always have an Fsmash or Tilt waiting for them. Disjoints are key whether he is approaching or camping, otherwise you will be beaten by his range or frame data.

Are you using the right stick as a Tilt stick or a Smash stick? If you are using it as a Smash stick, try changing it to Tilts in the controller preferences. I find Smash attacks much easier to pull of in the heat of battle, than the subtlety required of Tilts. You might find it easier to do Tilts that way. Otherwise, be sure you are spacing Up-Tilt in a way that hits your opponent, before their attack hits you or before any disjoints reach yours. Up-Tilt is a little laggy and starts from front to back. Try to insure that your opponent is on the side it is starting up on, unless their attacks have disjoints.

Don't worry, you're not alone in regards to the overall speed of the game. I and I'm sure many others, took a long time to get used to the speed and flow of the game. I also personally have complex health problems and one of those is autonomic dysfunction. My hand-eye coordination is messed up because of it and my input and reaction time are really bad compared to the average. I can't mash out of things like others can, my SDI is very poor, I can't play characters that require fast inputs and reaction time very well, and it might possibly be a cap that stops me from truly becoming a top player.

What I do to get around that, is to rely on prediction and intuition. It is faster to act than to react, so if I know what my opponent is going to do, I can setup a plan and act a little beforehand. I do this by getting an idea of how my opponents character plays and my habits and playstyle. Grinding through matches online, is my main form of practice and I try to gather as much info on the various characters I can. If you now the optimal options a character can take at anytime, then you can limit those options and force some bad ones, as well as make prediction easier. Then comes the player and watching for their habits and any flaws they have.

Eventually, that all becomes "feelings" and I just sort of "know" what my opponent is going to do and can be a step or two ahead. I find Zelda's frame buffs to her big punishes like Farore's Wind or LK, works wonders for such a style and I land FW quite often. I can't beat people head on, so needing to be a step ahead and relying on traps and trickery is important for me.

All of that isn't really unique to me and are things you need to have, in order to truly be a good player, but I especially need them, to get around my other deficiencies. So maybe try doing those things and see if you improve. Otherwise, lots of practice and the daily grind, is just something you can't get around. If you played Zelda in other games like I have, you won't have too much trouble with the spacing and timing, but if you are relatively new to her, it is essential that you get very familiar with all her moves spacing, range, and timing. Put lots of extra practice in, to try to counter act any input issues.

You mentioned in my first days that you also don't rely on grab as much, because of the same reasons. It's hard to grab people that are throwning out aerials. Catching their landing just outside of the hitbox range can be pretty strict, even with Pivot Grab. Tomohawks would be a fine addition for me, because I find myself landing on people's shields with attacks, a lot. As we all know, Zelda doesn't have the best attacks on shield, and even Kick on shield can be punished by a lot of OoS options.

Pretty much. I play at distance with Phantom and am more spacing oriented, so tomahawks aren't too useful for me, but judging from your playstyle might be useful for you. I tend to approach with Phantom, so don't have too much problems with shields. Sweet-spot LK does a ton of shield damage, though. So if maybe try learning how to combo that with Phantom, for a shield break.


All of that Ganon talk, reminds me I have replays of comboing him across the entire stage with Phantom and Din's Fire and didn't put them in that video. I guess there is always the possibility of future videos for that.

 

[Codebox]

Well, yes, kind of. It’s probably close to the “best it's ever been,” but not exactly. Some moves are distinctly better now than they used to be. Dtilt/Utilt/Dash Attack/Ftilt all have less endlag than SSB4 and Brawl, and her landing lag has almost never been lower on aerials. But her frame data will never compare to Melee.

All of zelda’s smashes in Melee (and somewhat Brawl) used to be built on a slighlty different framework. Her Up/Down smash hit sooner and ended faster. Her fsmash ended considerably faster and was infamous in Melee/Brawl compared to many other smash attacks (it was comparable to MK’s Fsmash). Not to mention LKs. The design for them was drastically nerfed in SSB4, but before that they both were hit 8/5 FAF 36/33 in Melee and FAF 40/36 in Brawl, which was incredibly fast. Another design that now, would be quite useable.

On the other hand, her specials have pretty much never been better. nayru’s never really changed that much, but it is technically the fastest to hit now, and has intangibility lasting thru the first hit, which makes it solid. Dins Frame Data was better in Brawl (no other game compares for Frame Data there), Phantom obviously didn’t exist until SSB4, but it’s still quite a bit better compared (the release FAF is 7F sooner, release hits are quicker, charge is probably near 2x as fast), and FW seems to get better and better every game. (Used to take nearly a whole second to disappear, then in SSB4 it was like 24F, now it’s only 17F to disappear. Speed of travel is faster too.)

Grabs are obviously a bit better but also worse. Since SSB4, her Grab grabs is a tiny bit sooner, but the endlag was badly nerfed.

In conclusion it’s kind of a mix. Over time many of her moves were redesigned or retooled, leading to alterations in their frame data:
- Her smashes had endlag nerfs in SSB4 to follow a trend of “smashes, especially high KB ones, are slow”
- Up tilt followed the SSB4 trend of combo up tilts and was altered from a slow kill move to a fast move.
- LKs were nerfed because sweetspot moves were treated overall harshly in SSB4. (Zelda seemingly worst of all, but CF Knee was hit badly too.)
- Common sense buffs were given to specials each game.
- Tbh her tilts were really pointless moves in Melee and they’ve been given mew life in other iterations (but dtilt is once again pointless lmao)

I honestly think her overall shift in frame data is motherboard for the better or worse. Some of it is great, but other things are just so unforgivable and we’re teally uncalled for on a character that was consistently bad in every smash game at the time. Personal preference is that most of her newer-Game frame data buffs were not relevant enough while the old moves that got nerfed were more detrimental. Zelda honestly needs faster aerials, landing viable and SH viable aerials.

Edit: I realized just now this may have been a question solely on Din’s and I apologize if I made an essay answer to you about her frame data as a whole and not just dins ^^’

Actually you just answered my question, it was for her framedata as a whole. I have noticed it's better comparatively to Smash 4 and Brawl, but still needs more. Her LK should be Melee SH LK (I think her aeriels would be much better) her D-tilt is unforgivable in Ultimate and in Melee what tilts did she have? lol

I think her U-Air is the best it's ever been, I mean it's considerably faster and seems to KO better.. Fair and Bair need a bit more rework. So I take it Zelda will be bad in Ultimate as well? lol

I agree her Specials got the most love they feel like specials, like edguarding with Nayru's didn't think that would ever be a thing. lol And Farore's has been perfected imo (I would love for it to be cancelable on shield though) I consider Brawl's iteration the absolute worst in terms of Farore's. What do you think would perfect Zelda's kit as a whole? With the moveset she has now?

 

[Rion]

Ahh, to have a Switch to play Smash... soon.

I’m hoping the Zelda discourse hasn’t been too silly during the past month Smash has been out. I’m still feeling pretty excited to try her out!

 

[EODM07]

How's it going DYKG Extra fans?

I got myself Tales of Vesperia: Definitive Edition, and I experienced my first game crash on it.

Spoiler

During a boss fight against an Eggbear, my game crashed when Estelle used one of her Magic Artes, just as she casted it; the game crashed. Thankfully I didn't have that far to go to fight the boss again.

And now since I mentioned Did You Know Gaming?, might as well make a list of some Fire Emblem related bits of trivia.

Spoiler: DYKG Extra inspired text

Spoiler: FE Trivia #1

The Fire Emblem series is often seen as one of Nintendo's more successful franchises now ever since the release of Awakening on the 3DS, and despite its huge success, the game isn't one to avoid controversy.

In Fire Emblem Fates, one of the recruitable units Soleli is often seen as lesbian in the game but cannot S Support any of the female units. When translating text from the original Japanese version, Fire Emblem if. Fans and members of the LGBT community cried out to Nintendo to change her support dialog with the Avatar character Corrin, more specifically the Male version.

As the support dialog has Soleli take a drink which allows her to see men as women instead, due to the fact that she grew up around women and eventually fell in love with Corrin's female side. However, the LGBT community saw this as an Anti-Homosexual act; due to this, in the localized version the whole support dialog with Corrin and Soleli was completely changed to remove all mentions of it, and make Soleli Bisexual instead.

Spoiler: FE Trivia #2

One other character that had their Support dialog completely changed during localization was Tharja's previous incarnation, Rhajat. When accessing Support dialog with her as either Corrins, fans took a notice when their Support dialog was the exact same and compared it to the Japanese version.

In the Japanese version, Rhajat is seen as more shy and lonely when talking with Female Corrin, with Corrin herself helping Rhajat open up and make friends with the other units by inviting her to tea parties, to which at the end of the normal Support Dialog; it is revealed that Corrin and Rhajat are previous incarnations of the Avatar character Robin and one of the recruitable units Tharja in Awakening. It's unknown whether this was removed due to an oversight or if it was hastily translated. One theory could be that due to making obvious hints about Fates being a prequel to Awakening, the translation team Nintendo Treehouse wanted to avoid these and make Fates a seperate title from its Japanese counterpart.

Spoiler: FE Trivia #3

Fire Emblem is also not without loss of extra content, sexual fanservice or subject to regional differences outside of Support dialog. In the Wii U title: Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE, Nintendo and ATLUS' crossover RPG between Fire Emblem and Shin Megami Tensei; several costumes for the characters were altered during localization and even had one piece of DLC removed from the International release.

All party members in the game and one NPC had Swimsuit costumes they could wear in the Japanese version of the game. However, due to the Age of Consent; most of these costumes were removed, whereas Tsubasa, Maiko and Eleonora's were changed to more Street themed costumes. One other bit of DLC that was removed was the Hot Springs DLC, making it a Japanese Only piece of DLC for the game where the cast would get together in their Swimwear and enjoy time in a Hot Spring. Animated cutscenes and other costumes were altered as well during International releases, such as covering the cleavage of Tsubasa Oribe in some of her Music Videos.

Spoiler: FE Trivia #4

Despite the differences of Tokyo Mirage Sessions and its censorship, the game Fire Emblem Warriors actually used fanservice as a driving force to add one character as a playable unit. The character Linde from Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light was added into the game because according to one of the developers: "I think Linde’s selling point is that she has sexy feet, so we designed her with careful consideration to what she wears under her robe based on reflection points we had in the main story. (...)"

Spoiler: Random Trivia

And it's time for today's random piece of trivia, today we're looking at Project X Zone 2 for the Nintendo 3DS. During development of the game, Bandai Namco approached Shinji Makami and asked if they could add in Bayonetta to the game as a Unit herself, he ultimately turned down the offer. Makami revealed he regrets not allowing her in the game as he would've loved to see dialog between Bayonetta and his previous creation Dante from Devil May Cry. He revealed that if there ever is a Project X Zone 3, he would be more then happy to have Bayonetta join the game so he can see her talk with Dante.

Spoiler: Yuri pic of the day~

 

[Arwon]

What would you guys say are MUs Zelda has an overall okay or decent time with? I've seen her struggle helplessly against Megaman, that MU is just a big no for Zelda. lol What do you guys think about actually having kicks that work this time? Any sourspot setups that actually work?

It's probably because he is bad overall, but I've found DeDeDe hilariously favourable

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Girls we cant have brawl Dins in this game. While aerials still clank with it that big invisible bubble was much easier to clank with in brawl compared to this game and smash 4. It would be really busted that way for this game lol.

 

[Aussie1024]

If you haven't already, try playing those characters for a while yourself. Sometimes unsafe or laggy options aren't immediately noticeable to the naked eye. I used to feel the same way in the Ike MU, until I played as him and realized he has trouble safely approaching and dealing with campers. His aerials aren't lagless and properly timed OoS options can really shut them down.

I went a bit into Ganon in the last paragraph in my response to Codebox above. Learn the distance and spacing with his specials and charge Phantom outside that. Wizard's Foot starts up quick, but peters out a bit toward the end. Try to keep Phantom around there and if he starts it before you have a chance to release, release Phantom, which should slow him down long enough for you to move and punish. Ganondorf has lagless moves, but only some of them are, so learn those and be ready to avoid them. Ultimately, you just keep a healthy distance between the two of you and you can take to the air if you run out of ground. He's laggy in the air, so give yourself plenty of space and escape to the platforms/other side of the stage. Ultimately you just need to put in disadvantage a few times, so perfect Zelda's advantage state as much as possible.

Don't treat DK as a heavy anymore. He is way too fast for that now. Rather, put him in the same category as the other fast characters like Fox or Falcon. Use spacing of your disjoints to beat out his range and speed, instead of trying to aggro him yourself. Dash attack is something you need to watch for, when he is charging you or wants to approach. Otherwise, learn the range of his attacks and always have an Fsmash or Tilt waiting for them. Disjoints are key whether he is approaching or camping, otherwise you will be beaten by his range or frame data.

Are you using the right stick as a Tilt stick or a Smash stick? If you are using it as a Smash stick, try changing it to Tilts in the controller preferences. I find Smash attacks much easier to pull of in the heat of battle, than the subtlety required of Tilts. You might find it easier to do Tilts that way. Otherwise, be sure you are spacing Up-Tilt in a way that hits your opponent, before their attack hits you or before any disjoints reach yours. Up-Tilt is a little laggy and starts from front to back. Try to insure that your opponent is on the side it is starting up on, unless their attacks have disjoints.

Don't worry, you're not alone in regards to the overall speed of the game. I and I'm sure many others, took a long time to get used to the speed and flow of the game. I also personally have complex health problems and one of those is autonomic dysfunction. My hand-eye coordination is messed up because of it and my input and reaction time are really bad compared to the average. I can't mash out of things like others can, my SDI is very poor, I can't play characters that require fast inputs and reaction time very well, and it might possibly be a cap that stops me from truly becoming a top player.

What I do to get around that, is to rely on prediction and intuition. It is faster to act than to react, so if I know what my opponent is going to do, I can setup a plan and act a little beforehand. I do this by getting an idea of how my opponents character plays and my habits and playstyle. Grinding through matches online, is my main form of practice and I try to gather as much info on the various characters I can. If you now the optimal options a character can take at anytime, then you can limit those options and force some bad ones, as well as make prediction easier. Then comes the player and watching for their habits and any flaws they have.

Eventually, that all becomes "feelings" and I just sort of "know" what my opponent is going to do and can be a step or two ahead. I find Zelda's frame buffs to her big punishes like Farore's Wind or LK, works wonders for such a style and I land FW quite often. I can't beat people head on, so needing to be a step ahead and relying on traps and trickery is important for me.

All of that isn't really unique to me and are things you need to have, in order to truly be a good player, but I especially need them, to get around my other deficiencies. So maybe try doing those things and see if you improve. Otherwise, lots of practice and the daily grind, is just something you can't get around. If you played Zelda in other games like I have, you won't have too much trouble with the spacing and timing, but if you are relatively new to her, it is essential that you get very familiar with all her moves spacing, range, and timing. Put lots of extra practice in, to try to counter act any input issues.

Thanks for the suggestions. Rarely (If ever) do I take the time to play as my opponents' characters and get a feel for what they're dealing with in their respective kit to pickup on potential weaknesses I can take advantage of.

I find myself too often doing close combat with both Ganon and DK, which is an absolute no-no for two reasons - 1) Zelda gets pummeled easily that way and 2) they're very punishing overall when you do that. I feel like I still have a lot to learn with Phantom and setting it strategically instead of just spamming it. Just to clarify, what is a disjoint? May seem like a noobish question but I've seen it all over SB and never asked what it is because it seemed stupid to do so.

I use a Tilt stick with them. It's usually two problems when I'm landing them. The main thing is the precise button input. There's also trying to safely distance myself in landing tilts (especially U-tilt is difficult. D-tilt is also hard but that move has very little use, which is unfortunate. That's a good suggestion though. I use the tilt stick and A often when I use my Smash attacks and never the Smash stick. The Smash stick seems much better to fit the two issues I'm struggling with.

That's a shame you have that shortcoming. But it's admirable that you can overcome that with learning a player's habits and taking advantage of them with an overall healthy intuition. I just struggle with reading my opponent overall. I'm now just starting to learn how to watch my opponent more and try to react out of that, but I already have trouble processing things which makes it harder on my mind. Since things happen so fast, it can be incredibly difficult to accurately read a players' moves and habits and take advantage of them. I'm not trying to make excuses because I still wanna improve in any way I can with every match I play. I feel like there's such a hindrance with my inability to read and react to stimuli consistently. I always feel like my mind is a step behind in reading my opponent. Maybe it'll come as I learn to read them more and know how to react accordingly?

I am actually still relatively new to Zelda. I've been using her overall in the series for two months now. Although she's my main in this game, she has an archetype that I am not too familiar with. I like to use fast characters that can get around easily, have quick combos and can play a rushdown / hit-and-run style. I've mainly used Sonic and Pikachu all my life, and Zero Suit Samus starting last summer. I think those habits can still come out when I'm playing Zelda, especially against online players when I lose my composure. It'll probably just take time and practice to learn how to stick to her archetype on a more consistent basis.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Is there something up with Ledge Trump, in this game? It's far, far harder than it is in Smash 4. In Smash 4, it was basically the same timing than in Brawl. I only get it like 3/10 times, here...

 

[Gay Ginger]

That said, I think I'm fairly decent and beat most of my matches, so I don't know why a lot of these people don't stick around for the rematch.

I think too many players are way too serious about their GSP, and since you lose way more points when you lose a match than you gain when you win, they probably don't want to risk it.

I got myself Tales of Vesperia: Definitive Edition, and I experienced my first game crash on it.

I've had my game crash twice. Both during boss fights. Thankfully I had saved before each boss fight so I didn't lose any progress - other than having to restart the fight - but I'm annoyed that I have to worry about it.

 

[Aussie1024]

I think too many players are way too serious about their GSP, and since you lose way more points when you lose a match than you gain when you win, they probably don't want to risk it.

Yup this is definitely me. I care more about a six-to-seven digit number (that is flawed in a number of ways) than how I can improve as a player. That's a terrible mindset to have, at least for me. I need to knock some sense into myself. I need to use online as a tool for improving, not for seeing how high of a GSP I can get with a certain fighter.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I think too many players are way too serious about their GSP, and since you lose way more points when you lose a match than you gain when you win, they probably don't want to risk it.

That's stupid. At that point, you're not even focusing on improving. You're pretty much just caring about the rank and numbers, which won't necessarily make you a better player.

The only thing that motivates me to keep my rank up is the potential to play better players.

 

[Aussie1024]

That's stupid. At that point, you're not even focusing on improving. You're pretty much just caring about the rank and numbers, which won't necessarily make you a better player.

Exactly. Focusing on a number doesn't make you better. So long as what you can see in your game to improve at for future matches, win or lose. That mindset is what will help your game in the long run. I'm gonna start applying this ASAP whenever I get back online. It'll make the game a lot more fun, and also relieve me of the unnecessary stress of my GSP number.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I don't know if it was you, or Nintendan, but one of you mentioned you're clearly not 100% serious about the competitive aspect because you use Zelda. I've always mained characters on the lower end of the spectrum, and that's never stopped me from being pretty serious about it. I don't expect to be the best, but that doesn't mean I want to be a nobody...

Maybe one of you were just speaking for yourselves, and I'm reading more into it than I should.

Nintendan

 

[StoicPhantom]

Thanks for the suggestions. Rarely (If ever) do I take the time to play as my opponents' characters and get a feel for what they're dealing with in their respective kit to pickup on potential weaknesses I can take advantage of.

You might need to focus on Zelda first, before you play others, but it is a good thing to do. What I like to do though, is play other characters as a warm up before I actually play Zelda. That way I can get some playtime with other characters.

A disjoint is an attack that has no hurtbox(registers a hit). A characters hurtbox is primarily around their model, so characters that attack with their body(Mario) lack disjoints. Characters with weapons, projectiles, or magic(FE chars, Zelda) have disjoints, since those aren't part of their character model. That means when a disjointed attack collides with a non disjoint, the disjoint will usually win, so long as the non disjointed attack doesn't extend past the disjointed attack. So a properly spaced Zelda Up-air, will beat a Ganon Dair. If you mistime it, the Ganon Dair might go through and force a trade. Zelda will win that trade, but it's better to not take the damage.

Just to clarify, since I worded it a little vague, when I said Tilt stick, I meant changing the right analog stick from Smash to Tilt. And when I said it is easier for me to smash attack, I meant the default way of flicking the stick and pressing A at the same time, rather than tilting the stick and pressing A to do a tilt. Since tilts are harder for me to do than smashes, I set my right stick to tilt and just smash attack the default way.

If you are new to Zelda and especially if you played her almost polar opposites, then you definitely have a steep learning curve ahead of you. Learn Zelda's moves to the point you don't really have to think or look at them. Once you can stop looking at her and start looking at your opponent, then you will be better able to study their habits. Once you understand your character, the opponents character, the opponents habits and playstyle, the new game mechanics, DI, and how the various states work(neutral, advantage, disadvantage) you will then understand what is optimal for either player at any given time and that is when reads and other more advanced stuff will start happening.

I'm going to link a match of mine against DK in the video thread in a bit, to better explain what I mean by spacing. I deliberately chose a slower and less complex one, to make it easier to see the spacing. The same principles should still apply to a faster and better DK. There are a lot of do's and don'ts in there, so pay attention to both. Don't try to copy everything you see there, rather get an idea of how certain tools can be used. I also have a Ganon one on my channel. My stick was malfunctioning, so it's more of a joke video, but you can still glean some ideas, if you are interested.

Is there something up with Ledge Trump, in this game? It's far, far harder than it is in Smash 4. In Smash 4, it was basically the same timing than in Brawl. I only get it like 3/10 times, here...

I tried it for about ten minutes or so in training, then just gave up. I don't if it is a clunky Zelda thing or if it is much more difficult than 4, but that is way too much of an investment, for too little gain for me.

That's stupid. At that point, you're not even focusing on improving. You're pretty much just caring about the rank and numbers, which won't necessarily make you a better player.

The only thing that motivates me to keep my rank up is the potential to play better players.

Exactly. Focusing on a number doesn't make you better. So long as what you can see in your game to improve at for future matches, win or lose. That mindset is what will help your game in the long run. I'm gonna start applying this ASAP whenever I get back online. It'll make the game a lot more fun, and also relieve me of the unnecessary stress of my GSP number.

Pretty much. I don't think it is very accurate in terms of measuring rank. I lose like 50-100,00 GSP with each loss and gain maybe 3-15,000 with each win. I need to go on crazy high win streaks to get anywhere significant. That can unfortunately lead to lots of tedium in beating on weaker players, until I make it back in Elite. So yeah, just worry about improving and not rank.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I tried it for about ten minutes or so in training, then just gave up. I don't if it is a clunky Zelda thing or if it is much more difficult than 4, but that is way too much of an investment, for too little gain

I'd argue it's a pretty big deal. Shouldn't a trump lead right into a Kick? If not, there's likely a lot to gain from simply disabling ledge invincibility.

for me.

oh

 

[ScottTape]

Yup this is definitely me. I care more about a six-to-seven digit number (that is flawed in a number of ways) than how I can improve as a player. That's a terrible mindset to have, at least for me. I need to knock some sense into myself. I need to use online as a tool for improving, not for seeing how high of a GSP I can get with a certain fighter.

Honestly I was the same way until one day when I was playing poorly I just decided to go on a big losing streak. It took a few sessions but I got back a pretty good score where I’m playing people at my rough level. It’s totally worth it if you need to crack a MU.