Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Trieste SP]

Next he'll be Super Saiyan Fabulous and have rainbow hair.

Heh...

 

[|ven|]

Next he'll be Super Saiyan Fabulous and have rainbow hair.

 

[EODM07]

The new DBZ looks awesome. :3

 

[|ven|]

The new DBZ looks awesome. :3

Agreed​

 

[EODM07]

View attachment 46943
Agreed​

Nice of you to CUT in.

Also, his @SBphiloz4, @ OmegaSorin . :D

 

[Rizen]

@Nammy12 GGs, those were fun

 

[Berserker.]

Alright. I'm back from doing random things in training mode. Went Shulk, Mario and Fox and did random stuff. Found out nothing new, so eh... :|

Boring session is boring. I'm still thinking if I should pick green or purple Mario.

 

[EODM07]

Alright. I'm back from doing random things in training mode. Went Shulk, Mario and Fox and did random stuff. Found out nothing new, so eh... :|

Boring session is boring. I'm still thinking if I should pick green or purple Mario.

What about Fat Mario or American Mario?

 

[Berserker.]

What about Fat Mario or American Mario?

Fat Mario?

 

[EODM07]

Fat Mario?

Yellow Mario/Wario.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't go American Mario.

 

[Berserker.]

Don't go American Mario.

I'm not a huge fan of the color. I still don't know why it's in the game

I like Green Mario because it reminds me of Monado jump. I like purple because it reminds me of buster. Hmm.... I think I'll stick with green Mario. It fits Mario because he is "jump" man anyway.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Don't go American Mario.

I'm not a huge fan of the color. I still don't know why it's in the game

B-but...FREEDOM! DREAMS! MESSING WITH OTHER COUNTRIES BUSINESSES! WARS!

 

[Rizen]

Isn't Mario Italian? Maybe he was part of an Italian family living in America before moving to the Mushroom Kingdom when his deadbeat brother had a nervous breakdown.

 

[Trieste SP]

Isn't Mario Italian? Maybe he was part of an Italian family living in America before moving to the Mushroom Kingdom when his deadbeat brother had a nervous breakdown.

Mario is actually part of an Italian mob based in New York.

 

[Alphatron]

Isn't "American Mario" just his pallete from NES Open tournament golf? That's what he was wearing on that game iirc.

 

[OmegaSorin]

Isn't "American Mario" just his pallete from NES Open tournament golf? That's what he was wearing on that game iirc.

People like to think of him as US-of-A Mario cause he's red and white (People forget the blue)

 

[Lavani]

I'm actually not sure which Gen I'd say has the best starter trio now that you mention it. Probably Gen 1 (because bias) or Gen 3. Gen 3 is funny because none of the starters stick out to me but they're all good enough and I like all their designs. Gen 2 is really good, too, though meganium is mediocre, Feraligatr's name is messed up (though it'd be weird if they changed it now), and Typhlosion has the same base stats as Charizard (lol). Gen 4 has Infernape and screwy typing, Gen 5 has another Fire/Fighting and lost potential in Samurott, and Gen 6 is mediocre.

Gens 2 and 3 were the only two gens where I liked all the starters, so I'm inclined to pick one of those. For favoritism, Chikorita is mad adorbs, but gen 3's legendaries are likely more useful pokes.

Don't care for or any of the gen 4 or 6 starters (Chesnaught's cool but not super memorable), gen 5 only had Serperior of interest.

I'm not a huge fan of the color. I still don't know why it's in the game

People like to think of him as US-of-A Mario cause he's red and white (People forget the blue)

 

[Berserker.]

So in the Shulk boards' patch discussion, we've came up with our wish lists. What do you guys think?

I made a list of changes that I would like to see for Shulk but aren't entirely necessary. The character is in a good place as he is, but would need a few things here and there to become a top tier threat while retaining the key elements of his design:

+ Jab 1 has lowered and larger hitboxes, adjusted angle and adjusted knockback to hit smaller characters and jab reset grounded foes
Jab and grab are Shulk's only quick attacks so the fact that they can whiff vs certain characters at certain points really serves to hurt this character quite a bit in certain matchups. The ability to jab reset conveniently would also help his ground level tech chase game, allowing for a quick and effective punish against missed techs.

+ Jab 1 made two frames faster (frame 5 to 3)
Despite the fact that Shulk's jab is his fastest move it's still not particularly fast for a jab especially considering its mediocre range. Making it two frames faster may not seem like much of an improvement, but alongside hitbox buffs it would serve to improve the move a fair bit.

+ Jab 2 has adjusted knockback so that Jab 3 can hit floatier characters properly (currently whiffs vs Kirby, Jiggs, Peach, Rosalina and Zelda)
This isn't really too big of a deal to be honest considering against all of these characters barring Kirby (who can either throw out a hard to punish aerial or Down B and break your shield) it's safe to just shield after Jab 2. Nonetheless it would be nice to have while still retaining the potential mix-ups after Jab 2 vs these characters.

+ Dash Attack to come out 5 frames faster (frame 15 to frame 10) and hit at a lower angle
Currently Shulk's dash attack is by far his worst normal. It's essentially a bad version of FSmash that hits at a worse angle. Startup is far too slow for how unrewarding it is, and it's incredibly unsafe both on block and on whiff making it completely unviable as an approach option compared to most dash attacks in the game. Lowering the angle of the attack and making it come out a little faster would improve this move's viability as both an approach and a mid range punish.

+ Angleable FTilt
Another flavour thing for the most part, though it would genuinely help as another grounded anti-air to cover angles that UTilt can't as well as a tool for hitting opponents on the ledge, improving Shulk's overall zoning capability.

+ Slightly less endlag on FSmash to make spaced FSmash safer on block
Thankfully FSmash for the most part is a pretty good move but horribly unsafe regardless of how well it's spaced. I personally feel that an FSmash that's spaced at maximum/near maximum range should at least allow you to get a shield in after. For the most part though the move should remain unsafe due to it's relatively fast startup and power.

+ Adjusted priority on FSmash and USmash to make them not clank with jabs
This honestly drives me nuts. These attacks are both strong yet they trade with everything. The fact that a character like Captain Falcon can hold jab, trade with my smash and then punish me while I'm in rebound animation because none of my moves are fast enough to contest him is silly. Maybe give the first hits of FSmash and USmash the same sort of priority Mac's ground normals have so they're able to beat out weaker moves.

+ Adjusted timings and knockback of first hits of FSmash and USmash to make them connect more reliably
This is more cleanup than a proper buff. They were cleaned up in the 1.0.4 patch but still aren't entirely reliable, with down angled FSmash being the largest offender.

+ NAir, FAir and BAir all made 3 frames faster (frames 13, 14 and 18 to 10, 11 and 15 respectively)
This is a pretty huge buff and one that I'd be cautious about. On one hand it would help to alleviate some of the issues he has dealing with pressure in the air and would improve his OoS game (it would still be a weakness which is a good thing). On the other hand this would also improve his combo and neutral game quite a bit, possibly more than necessary.

+ Adjusted autocancel windows for BAir, UAir and DAir such that they can autocancel on full hop
This serves as both a buff and a polish. Currently the autocancel timings for these moves is absurdly late to the point where they don't make sense visual or practical. BAir is the worst offender. He literally already has the sword back on his back again before placing it down to suffer 21 frames of landing lag even though he was already super vulnerable in the air. In terms of buffs this would improve his aerial spacing with BAir, his anti air capability with UAir and his ability to cross up with DAir.

+ Added lingering sourspot hitboxes for UAir and DAir that last for 5 frames
Again both a buff and a polish. The beam for the Monado lingers out for a while, yet the hitboxes are out for pretty much a frame or two each which again doesn't make visual sense. This would give these moves utility somewhat more like Link's UAir and DAir but with less linger and greater range/disjoint as UAir and DAir are currently his least useful aerials by a significant margin due to skewed risk/reward ratio.

+ Back Slash damage buffed from 9/10 sourspot 14/16 sweetspot to 13/14 sourspot 22/24 sweetspot
Back Slash is Shulk's signature offensive Art in Xenoblade Chronicles and remains one his best arts all the way up until the endgame. The fact that it's arguably one of his worst moves in Smash is rather sad. I still believe it's utility should remain the same, serving as a rare punish off of a good read but I believe the damage should be increased to allow for a better risk/reward ratio. Currently the move is incredibly unsafe but also still weaker than his FSmash and USmash even when sweetspotted when imo it should be his strongest attack.

+ Vision adjusted to come out slightly faster and hit more reliably in the air
Shulk's counter is a weirdly polarised one. It's either the most absurd counter ever created or it simply doesn't work. This serves as an attempt to normalise it somewhat, bringing it more in line with other counters in the game.

- Vision knockback reduced significantly
The only nerf of the group for the same reason as above. The fact that this can kill at 80-90 from countering a jab is pretty absurd. It should be a powerful punish off of getting a good read (which is why I feel the damage should remain the same), but I feel it's too rewarding considering how little precision it requires to use.

This is all for default Shulk. Not sure what to say about customs, though the adjustments made for Vision above would also apply to its customs at least. And again, most of this is more "nice" than truly necessary. I'd like it to happen but it's not too big of a deal if it doesn't and to be honest I don't expect it to. I expect Shulk won't receive many changes realistically speaking.

Jump
What it did in Xenoblade: Ay lmoa
What it does in Smash: Increases jump height, air slash height, and air mobility, at the cost of increased damage received

Assumed design
- For recovering
- For off-stage edgeguarding

Current stance on Jump
My favorite art. You can land some insane combos with this art. One n-air > f-air > f-air can KO your opponents fairly easily off the edge. My main gripe with jump art is that Shulk's air acceleration is still abysmal. It is called "jump art" right? Why not make it at least decent?

Suggested changes
- Increase aerial acceleration

Speed

What it did in Xenoblade: Increase evade rate
What it does in Smash: Increase dash speed and air mobility, at the cost of decreased damage output and decreased jump height

Assumed design
- To bypass zoning
- To keep up with faster opponents

Current stance on Speed
It's godlike. I don't think it needs any changes. It's fine as is. Boost pivot grabs and SHFF N-airs are our BnB's with this art. It would be hilarious if they actually sped up Shulk's roll/spot dodge animation but they aren't gonna do that. Lol

Suggested changes
- None

Shield

What it did in Xenoblade: Blocks one talent art
What it does in Smash: Decreases damage received, increases weight, increases shield health, at the cost of decreased damage output, decreased dash/walk speed, and decreased aerial mobility

Assumed design
- To survive

Current stance on Shield
Ugh. I'm not a huge fan of this art. Sometimes, I feel like I'm simply delaying the inevitable with shield art. Hell, I found myself preferring to risk it with speed or buster than camping in shield. I feel like Shulk lacks too much options in shield. YEAH, he can survive but he can't do much while he's using the art

Suggested changes
- Damage dealt reduced by 10% (from 30%)
- Remove the nerf to walk/dash speed

Buster

What it did in Xenoblade: Deals high amount of damage to anyone at range (double to mechon)
What it does in Smash: Increase damage output, at the cost of increased damage received, and reduced knockback

Assumed design
- Combos (he did that 2 hit "combo" in the trailer)
- Racking up damage

Current stance on Buster
I love this art too. My only gripe with it is its reduced knockback. It's too much imo. It's kinda dumb that I'm still punishable despite landing the hit. Otherwise, spacing is rewarding with this art but the difficulty and riskiness of spacing with buster is the reason why people seem to go to speed most or if not, all the time. Despite my complaints, this art is very rewarding but I think it needs some buffs such that people can actually decide between buster and speed (instead of instantly going into speed)

Suggested changes
- Damage dealt increased by 55% (from 40%)
- Decrease the nerf to knockback
- Why the hell is this called buster anyway? Isn't this more of enchant? Wtf Samurai?

Smash

What it did in Xenoblade: Is actually Monado buster but Sakurai is a thing.
What it does in Smash: Increases knockback, at the cost of decreasing weight and damage output

Assumed design
- To land the KO

Current stance on Smash
Sometimes, I like this art. Sometimes, I hate it. I wonder why.... Oh right, I feel like Smash art is read based. I feel like I'm just there waiting and fishing for the KO. What makes me not totally hate Smash art is that the reward/knockback is nuts. However, it's fairly difficult to use Smash art at neutral. You're ALWAYS hoping that your opponent makes a mistake, or you're going to land a correct read.

Suggested changes
- .... Er... Help here? I mean, I want to suggest changes but I don't feel like the things I'm about to suggest might break this art ;-;

 

[Trieste SP]

So in the Shulk boards' patch discussion, we've came up with our wish lists. What do you guys think?

It would certainly make him a lot more viable. Great list.

 

[Lavani]

So in the Shulk boards' patch discussion, we've came up with our wish lists. What do you guys think?

I'm disgusted by the idea of a character with that much general range having a frame 3 jab.

Fsmash being safe on block would be horrifying unless it also took a startup or power nerf, a frame 14 kill move with that much range should not be safe.

Not sure how I feel about faster startup on nair/bair but I'm on board with it for fair.

Uair's size and assumed lingering hitbox buff make it sound like it might be a bit too good for landing traps with a sh autocancel.

Those Back Slash numbers make its knockback higher than Falcon Punch on a back hit, I hope you know. It's gonna kill at like 20~30% artless. Not opposed to it being buffed but that seems extreme.

Rest sounds good, though I'm kind of iffy on changes to shield/buster.

 

[evmaxy54]

Shulk just needs a clothes nerf if you know what I mean

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Isn't "American Mario" just his pallete from NES Open tournament golf? That's what he was wearing on that game iirc.

People like to think of him as US-of-A Mario cause he's red and white (People forget the blue)

But it is an American outfit. The game takes place on Earth where you go to certain places for golf courses, including United States.

 

[Berserker.]

Rest sounds good, though I'm kind of iffy on changes to shield/buster.

I was also having a difficult time thinking about shield and buster. It's really hard to balance those arts since well.... Shield is meant for survival, and buster is sort of a risk:reward art.

All your other points were noted.

But the main objective of those changes though were to make him top tier

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Shulk just needs a clothes nerf if you know what I mean

Gorl...

 

[Lavani]

I was thinking about those buffs more while making coffee, here's a hilarious hypothetical considering the proposed uair and Back Slash buffs alone.

Match starts, vs . Shulk connects a utilt, Mario is flung into the air. Shulk empty shorthops to bait a reaction, Mario double jumps away. Shulk follows him and throws out a sh uair. Mario can't avoid the lingering uair hitbox and is forced to airdodge, but is going to suffer landing lag for it. Shulk lands, is able to act instantly, uses Back Slash, and kills him.

 

[Rizen]

If Link had a frame 3 jab he could jab cancel infinite the entire cast at 0%

 

[warionumbah2]

= Italian plumber,made by the Japanese,jumps like a black guy and looks Mexican.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Berserker.]

I was thinking about those buffs more while making coffee, here's a hilarious hypothetical considering the proposed uair and Back Slash buffs alone.

Match starts, vs . Shulk connects a utilt, Mario is flung into the air. Shulk empty shorthops to bait a reaction, Mario double jumps away. Shulk follows him and throws out a sh uair. Mario can't avoid the lingering uair hitbox and is forced to airdodge, but is going to suffer landing lag for it. Shulk lands, is able to act instantly, uses Back Slash, and kills him.

Can't they just reduce back slash's knockback (on the back hit)?

 

[Rizen]

= Italian plumber,made by the Japanese,jumps like a black guy and looks Mexican.

Did I miss anything?

Something antisemitic. I'm not going there though.
(I know the entire meme)

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Anyone want to play?
Edit: nvm I'm gonna spend some time in the lab
Gonna try and practice kirby combos, and read better

 

[Lavani]

Can't they just reduce back slash's knockback (on the back hit)?

Sure.

Like, for the commitment involved I think the damage buff is fine, it's just gonna need hella knockback nerfs if it happens lol

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

What is the best level of CPU to practice on?

 

[Berserker.]

What is the best level of CPU to practice on?

It depends. If you want a "realistic" CPU, it's level 7 or 8

I've seen some people train against level 1,2, or 3 CPU's for "consistency" but I'm not exactly sure as to what they mean by that. I'm under the notion that they're saying that they train on level 1-3 CPU's to train their execution of techs but idk.

 

[Lavani]

What is the best level of CPU to practice on?

I usually go with 7 or 8 if I want them to fight back

If you just want to slap a moving target around you're probably teaching yourself less bad habits by sticking to lower numbers.

 

[EODM07]

What is the best level of CPU to practice on?

Spoiler

I always go for that since the CPU will recover alot better.

 

[Rizen]

I use level 9 CPUs.
CPUs seem to learn from humans: I had a zelda CPU elevator me.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

I've never posted here because everything is so random and I'm relatively new, but I agree on Shulk getting a clothes nerf ;3 just kidding, that one alt it enough.

It depends. If you want a "realistic" CPU, it's level 7 or 8

I've seen some people train against level 1,2, or 3 CPU's for "consistency" but I'm not exactly sure as to what they mean by that. I'm under the notion that they're saying that they train on level 1-3 CPU's to train their execution of techs but idk.

This guy is right. Level 9 will read your input immediately and react, the others aren't nearly as bad. The lower numbers I'm not exactly sure, maybe practicing follow ups that are hard to land.

 

[BJN39]

But the main objective of those changes though were to make him top tier

When you say that I understand now.

Cuz I was thinking not even Zelda's wish lists are THAT greedy smh. :^)

 

[Locke 06]

22/24% backslash.... In vanilla? Do you understand what that would do?

In buster...

Spoiler

30.8/33.6%

In hyper buster...

Spoiler

insert billy and mandy img here (on mobile in bed)

Spoiler

37/40.3%