Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[WolfieXVII ❂]

@ Macchiato you up for a couple of matches?

 

[Macchiato]

@ Macchiato you up for a couple of matches?

make a room with customs on. I need practice with them for my tourney

 

[Berserker.]

Holy ****, Mario's u-air is like ZSS u-air levels of amazing. I'm beginning to think that buster art is underrated because speed exists. Seriously. Bust moooore

Sounds right enough, (description wise) though I don't feel like I appear strong on the outside... :\

Tbh I just want to know what Zelda's description says...

"Style over substance. You focus more on sass instead of practicality in dire situations"

 

[Xys]

Since we're talking about music n stuff, does anyone else listen to Selena or am I the only one here? xD

Wait the dead one or the disney one.

 

[Rizen]

Pit
Every dweeb has his day.

 

[Random4811]

Wait the dead one or the disney one.

I listen to the dead one. She's one pretty talented chica.

 

[Xys]

Ugh, they failed to measure the amount of sass I had during this quiz. Also doesn't Olimar ruthlessly kill his friends to achieve his goals?

 

[Macchiato]

@ WolfieXVII ❂ are yew here?

 

[SBphiloz4]

I'm still trying to get Zelda on that quiz, haha.

They've realized that I'm getting thirsty for a princess. :^(

 

[Rizen]

Those are from a quiz?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

@ WolfieXVII ❂ are yew here?

I'm sorry, I had to run out
I'm making a room now

 

[「 Derk 」]

Ok, i'm done with Farore's Squall for real this time. Probably not though

 

[BJN39]

Ok, i'm done with Farore's Squall for real this time. Probably not though

Whoa, that is really legit, like, wow.

Lmao when I saw you pushing Ike closer and closer to the edge at the start; I knew what was coming.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Wow.

I'm now a believer in Farore's Squall.

#SquallSquad

 

[「 Derk 」]

Taking a much closer look at Nayru's Rejection atm and It's not frame 1 intangible. This is why it can't break out of combos like squall can. I can't tell exactly since I am using 1/4 speed in training (not a good indicator of frames) but it seems to be around frame 3-5 intangible. It may be a couple of frames faster than Nayru's Love or it may be the same. She definitely goes intangible before the actual crystal surrounds her but not on frame 1. Once the crystal forms around her she seems to lose her intangible frames. This is also why moves pass through her at the beginning of this move. With perfect timing you can catch a move with the intangible frames that come out before the reflect frames.

Spoiler: pictures

Starting frames of Nayru's Rejection.

First frame of intangibility. She gains intangibility when she extends her leg back.

Reflector actually acts like a reflector now! Pretty sure intangible frames end at this point.

Someone that is actually good with frame data should take a look at this, I don't have the tools to get a precise number and i'd rather not guess. @ BJN39

 

[Phenomiracle]

It's good to be back. Even for a bit.

Retook the quiz two times and answered three or questions I was iffy on differently, still ended up with Falcon.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Omg that last one XD
GGs @ Macchiato
Those were incredibly fun

 

[Macchiato]

GGs @ WolfieXVII ❂ that was fun. I LOLed at those squall gimps. HAHAHAH one thing yew should fix is your repetitiveness. Like when your about to Dair with kirby yew always hop above one more time or when your on the ledge yew drop from it and upB too much and I started to punished yew for those

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

GGs @ WolfieXVII ❂ that was fun. I LOLed at those squall gimps. HAHAHAH one thing yew should fix is your repetitiveness. Like when your about to Dair with kirby yew always hop above one more time or when your on the ledge yew drop from it and upB too much and I started to punished yew for those

Right, I'll work on breaking those habits
Thanks for the tips

 

[Oh Snap]

OMG.

 

[Furret]

I do not need to take a test, as Ganondorf is inside me, he let's energy flow within me. Without Ganondorf, I would be dead.
M2King cannot even handle Ganondorfs power.

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

you do realize this test is a joke right? Like there is no way in hell I'm some space bounty hunter who doesn't wear a power suit all because I said "I would prefer the curry rice"

OMG.

it should have said the betterment of sass

 

[「 Derk 」]

I want to give up on Nayru's Rejection but i'm not a quitter... this move makes me really sad though lol. What am I suppose to do with this thing? The wind box doesn't push half the time, their is 0 knock-back and hit stun, a damaging cape move is garbage in general since it defeats the purpose of the cape effect when you give someone their up-b back, it's slower than Nayru's Love and you can hardly even use it as a defense option. Feel free to come out at any time hidden potential, because I can't seem to find you .

When I use it offstage to cape people its almost like the cape effect has another cape effect that turns them back in the correct direction lmao.

Edit: Ok... I kinda figured out the wind box. It seems to only work if you get near them around the end of the move without damaging them with Rejection.

 

[BJN39]

OMG.

That's it, someone heeya needs to make a TRUE Zelda character description instead of this one.

EdiT : Actually, if anyone wants to get me a good pic of black dress Zelda in this angle and pose ^ in the desc. picture, (On this stage too, why not. It has a godd background.) I would be very much obliged, as It has good potential as a black dress Zelda w/ salt shaker pic. :D

Taking a much closer look at Nayru's Rejection atm and It's not frame 1 intangible. This is why it can't break out of combos like squall can. I can't tell exactly since I am using 1/4 speed in training (not a good indicator of frames) but it seems to be around frame 3-5 intangible. It may be a couple of frames faster than Nayru's Love or it may be the same. She definitely goes intangible before the actual crystal surrounds her but not on frame 1. Once the crystal forms around her she seems to lose her intangible frames. This is also why moves pass through her at the beginning of this move. With perfect timing you can catch a move with the intangible frames that come out before the reflect frames.

Spoiler: pictures

Starting frames of Nayru's Rejection.

First frame of intangibility. She gains intangibility when she extends her leg back.

Reflector actually acts like a reflector now! Pretty sure intangible frames end at this point.

Someone that is actually good with frame data should take a look at this, I don't have the tools to get a precise number and i'd rather not guess. @ BJN39

So this image just shows a few different states of the move, and not the closest intervals you could catch using 1/4 (Hold L) right?

Well, let's see, the reflector starts on real frame 18 (Via the frame speed multiplier altered for the first 12 frames to be x1.5, thus > 18 frames.) so I sort of answered that myself, lol.

The intangibility start trigger must've been altered in designing this move, (If it really does start intangibility on frame 3-5) as if it were a completely raw ONLY frame speed change to the startup, the intangibility would start around frame 7, and it obviously, does NOT.

Also, whatever frame total the intangibility actually lasts (Whether it was the same "till the hit-box" or different from the standard variation.) its duration would be mulitplied by x1.5 as well, so its intangibility should be decently longer than Nayru's Love (As much as 5 frames) Sort of getting a little carried away here I suppose...


Unfortunately, the mastercore doesn't have the data for when her Nayrus' intangible frames start and end, but one way you could try to find them is like, make a video of a move being used in 1/4 speed, and then slow down the video recording as well and possibly get very close estimates by counting the visual frame changes? I mean, an old Brawl video showing Zelda's dsmash arm glitch did something like this and was able to show the arm's apparently 1 frame long glitching very clearly.

I recommend you test this idea's reliability with a move like Jab, maybe (Short move, we know the hit-frame, and we have a probably un-changed from Brawl IASA of frame 23 iirc. AKA.) and then compare the video with our knowledge and see if it could be a reliable way to find frames. If it works reliably, this could likely be used to try and pinpoint the intangibility frames of Nayru's Rejection. I know some other character boards have done estimate or even accurate frame data for endings by recording something and slowing it down and counting it.

 

[Macchiato]

Lucina gets so much better with customs

 

[Cenizas]

I got Peach. I'm apparently kind and classy and could use a mochador plumber around the house.

 

[「 Derk 」]

Ok a couple of interesting things I have picked up for Nayru's Rejection. Believe it or not, this may have some use...

The beginning diamond frames ALWAYS reflect opponents so they face away from Zelda. It's also very difficult for me (controlling p2) to hit Zelda after this using Marth, even when inputting the opposite direction to cancel the cape effect. However, when I switched to Sheik she can easily land f-tilts when inputting the opposite direction to cancel out the cape effect.

Near the end of the diamond hits they transform into wind based hit boxes that push away. This second portion of the move made it extremely difficult for Sheik to hit Zelda at all where as the first part she easily got through just by attacking in the opposite direction.

Edit: Using these ending wind box hits also seems to gives Zelda enough time to perfect shield attacks even if the opponent does end up inputting the opposite direction to nullify the cape. This also means you have enough time to follow up off Nayru's Rejection if they input an attack in the wrong direction. Follow up potential is a pretty big positive if this ends up being right. It's kinda difficult to test it myself since I am already using custom controls to control 2 characters for the easy stuff lol.

 

[Fernosaur]

Ok, i'm done with Farore's Squall for real this time. Probably not though

Added this to the Squall lab . Thanks so much for all this time in research, D3RK. I owe you dinner!


About rejection... its weird timing I think make it a much worse tool than it already was, haha. If you need to hit them with the late part of the move so that they get pushed back...

Well,it looks like we got ourselves yet another situational-at-best move :'D

 

[Macchiato]

Added this to the Squall lab . Thanks so much for all this time in research, D3RK. I owe you dinner!


About rejection... its weird timing I think make it a much worse tool than it already was, haha. If you need to hit them with the late part of the move so that they get pushed back...

Well,it looks like we got ourselves yet another situational-at-best move :'D

At least it's not useless like we thought

 

[Fernosaur]

Nayru's Love is still exponentially better, I think. It is more reliable and can serve almost the same function in breaking pressure, so I don't think it's actually necessary at all to use it.

Btw I added your squallator data to the lab too.

 

[「 Derk 」]

About rejection... its weird timing I think make it a much worse tool than it already was, haha. If you need to hit them with the late part of the move so that they get pushed back...

Well,it looks like we got ourselves yet another situational-at-best move :'D

Its actually not as bad as it sounds. If you read an approach and throw out Rejection you can probably get a free grab combo out of it. You do risk the opponent running in with shield though, but that is an issue Nayru's Love has also. Nayru's Love stops approaches pretty well but it's very hard to combo it into anything barring the occasional Farore's Wind on a missed tech. If this move is going to see any sort of use it would be for its ability to actually combo into something while stuffing approaches.

 

[Lavani]

Holy ****, Mario's u-air is like ZSS u-air levels of amazing.

Jeez was this really Nov 2, time flies

I'm beginning to think that buster art is underrated because speed exists. Seriously. Bust moooore

I could understand Buster being downplayed prepatch when the downside was bigger, but now the reward is so good compared to the risk.

Also the majority of his attacks become safe on shield in Buster, no?

---

I'm a bit less of a believer in Squall now that I know you're using it preemptively instead of reactively. Bluffing an attack to try and commit to a 45 frame startup to beat your opponent's OoS option or w/e isn't nearly as good, especially considering the times you can frame 1 upB grounded you can also frame 1 powershield and have any option available to you. As opposed to characters like Greninja who can Shadow Sneak out of weak hitstun and escape certain multihits like ZSS' fsmash, or Jigglypuff being able to use her 1f invincible Rest to hit through attacks like rapid jabs and Luigi Cyclone.

Though speaking of powershield vs Squall, that does raise one point of consideration in my mind; if you get grabbed during Squall's startup (if you can even get grabbed during the startup), maybe you could force a grab break going over the ledge like what Falcon and MK can do with their dash grab; opponents that fall faster than Zelda would be setting themselves up to get daired.

 

[Macchiato]

Its actually not as bad as it sounds. If you read an approach and throw out Rejection you can probably get a free grab combo out of it. You do risk the opponent running in with shield though, but that is an issue Nayru's Love has also. Nayru's Love stops approaches pretty well but it's very hard to combo it into anything barring the occasional Farore's Wind on a missed tech. If this move is going to see any sort of use it would be for its ability to actually combo into something while stuffing approaches.

Wow rejection has uses yay

 

[Fernosaur]

Jeez was this really Nov 2, time flies


I could understand Buster being downplayed prepatch when the downside was bigger, but now the reward is so good compared to the risk.

Also the majority of his attacks become safe on shield in Buster, no?

---

I'm a bit less of a believer in Squall now that I know you're using it preemptively instead of reactively. Bluffing an attack to try and commit to a 45 frame startup to beat your opponent's OoS option or w/e isn't nearly as good, especially considering the times you can frame 1 upB grounded you can also frame 1 powershield and have any option available to you. As opposed to characters like Greninja who can Shadow Sneak out of weak hitstun and escape certain multihits like ZSS' fsmash, or Jigglypuff being able to use her 1f invincible Rest to hit through attacks like rapid jabs and Luigi Cyclone.

Though speaking of powershield vs Squall, that does raise one point of consideration in my mind; if you get grabbed during Squall's startup (if you can even get grabbed during the startup), maybe you could force a grab break going over the ledge like what Falcon and MK can do with their dash grab; opponents that fall faster than Zelda would be setting themselves up to get daired.

Squall's main use right now is to stop multihits and aerial approaches, and to gimp. It can be used to set up the u-air but that's like 90% unreliable.

I actually added in the Lab's OP that Squall is a 100% defensive move, and going Squall sacrifices early kill power for the ability to halt strings and stop momentum. It basically lets you live in neutral game for most of the match.

 

[「 Derk 」]

If you can DI attacks you can Squall Cancel. You literally just replace pushing a direction to DI away from attacks with an up b command. When you get hit just spam up b lol. I will admit that it's a lot easier when you know the attacks are coming but there is definitely time to react when you have a frame 1 get out of jail free card.

 

[Lavani]

If you can DI attacks you can Squall Cancel. You literally just replace pushing a direction to DI away from attacks with an up b command. When you get hit just spam up b lol. I will admit that it's a lot easier when you know the attacks are coming but there is definitely time to react when you have a frame 1 get out of jail free card.

Right, but what I'm saying is if you're on the ground and trying to throw out a frame 1 windbox to make most of a multihit whiff, why not just frame 1 powershield and be in position to punish hard instead?

When you say "Oh you can make ZSS' upB whiff with this" I think of using it while caught in the move, not trying to preempt a frame 4 upB with it.

Also DI doesn't come into play until hitlag ends, you've actually got 10(+) more frames to input DI than you do to input this for most attacks.

 

[BJN39]

So I was messing with the hold L 1/4 speed on my 3DS again to see if it had any true useable frame use, and I noticed that if you could get super light tap Ls, each tiny jump was almost always jumping 2 frames! I realized this when every move would hit in about half the Ls as it had startup frames. (Example: 6 L inputs for Ftilt a frame 12 attack, 3 L inputs for things like Dtilt, Dsmash, and BAir, which are 5, 5, and 6 respectively.)

Now, obviously some of these hit on odd numbered frames, but it seems surprisingly reliable for getting end lag estimates. (To a margin of error of 1-2 frames at most.) I was able to get very accurate looking numbers for a few of her quicker attacks. I may use it to get us some estimate IASAs and FAFs. :D

 

[Lavani]

So I was messing with the hold L 1/4 speed on my 3DS again to see if it had any true useable frame use, and I noticed that if you could get super light tap Ls, each tiny jump was almost always jumping 2 frames! I realized this when every move would hit in about half the Ls as it had startup frames. (Example: 6 L inputs for Ftilt a frame 12 attack, 3 L inputs for things like Dtilt, Dsmash, and BAir, which are 5, 5, and 6 respectively.)

Now, obviously some of these hit on odd numbered frames, but it seems surprisingly reliable for getting end lag estimates. (To a margin of error of 1-2 frames at most.) I was able to get very accurate looking numbers for a few of her quicker attacks. I may use it to get us some estimate IASAs and FAFs. :D

no

pls no

Hold L 1/4 made me report to the Palutena boards back in late november that their jab was 11 frames when it's actually 7

It isn't accurate don't do it

 

[Fernosaur]

Right, but what I'm saying is if you're on the ground and trying to throw out a frame 1 windbox to make most of a multihit whiff, why not just frame 1 powershield and be in position to punish hard instead?

When you say "Oh you can make ZSS' upB whiff with this" I think of using it while caught in the move, not trying to preempt a frame 4 upB with it.

Also DI doesn't come into play until hitlag ends, you've actually got 10(+) more frames to input DI than you do to input this for most attacks.

The main point of Squall is that it works in the air too. If you get hit by Zamus' air strings into UpB, you can **** her UpB by inputting Squall after she's begun hitting you. You probably can even mess up her strings, I'm not sure since her hitboxes are pretty disjointed. If she D-smashes you, you can use Squall to get out of her UpB as well. It works to escape multihits once you've gotten hit by them. If you're on the ground and you missed the power shield you have another shot at getting out of these attacks too.

It also basically nullifies Fox's jab cancel stuff.

 

[Macchiato]

Rejection really does get free grab combos wow. We should look at passion next, hopefully it has some hidden hitbox that kills at 60

 

[BJN39]

no

pls no

Hold L 1/4 made me report to the Palutena boards back in late november that their jab was 11 frames when it's actually 7

It isn't accurate don't do it

Thus, why is make it very clear they're estimates. (That are possibly a couple frames off) The moves I've done were ones whose speed seems unchanged from Brawl's, and their results were very very similar (and even identical) numbers to their Brawl numbers, and that way we can have something to look at until we can get the legit frame data. I'll be careful.