Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2014
- Messages
- 14,629
I'm getting déjà vu from reading this... The second paragraph specifically. Didn't Shaya say the same thing about Roy?INCOMING RANT!
So while at SF, I got many chances to play with many people, I made friends and practice partners with tons of Marth players, and I used that chance to sneak in and practice my Lucina. And I improved a lot, even started beating local players that I was unable to before.
While at it, I noticed that both characters' advantage states are very different, Lucy's idea is to ram in and using her mobility to fake out and force reactions, while Marth positions himself where the opponent might be and places his sword with high precision, while non-tipper moves are capable to make combos neither Lucina or his tipper moves would.
I don't think neither is inherently better, maybe Marth's is because if he tries Lucina's way, a stray tipper can change the result of a match.
But anyway.
During my way back to town, I was wondering "how would I improve Lucina with patches/edits? (obviously without anything too crazy)".
It struck me that having a bit more KBG on some key aerial moves (Uair, Bair, Nair) would make wonders for her, since now her juggle game would be truly fearsome, as they would actually kill, would put opponents on bad states, and throw them offstage easier, maybe even gimping better. At least, that was the idea I had until I went and check both characters' frame data, since I was under the wrong idea that Marth's aerials only dealt more damage while having the same BKB and KBG, HOWEVER, Marth's tipper aerials have better damage output AND better knockback values.
But it doesn't end there, Dancing Blade is the one where the tipper only has better damage, but the difference is very noticeable, it is actually able to kill without all the rage Lucina's would need, all while not being too inferior damage-wise than the granddaughter's.
This whole read killed my hopes for a high-level Lucina, she would never be able to cheese victories like Marth can, and everything she does, a tipper might make Marth do better. Even my proposed chance is something he is already capable to do.
I still like Lucina more, and feel much more comfortable with her, but results and frame data all point to Marth being by far the superior choice.
This is a very uneducated guess and based mostly on seeing patterns of numbers, but it seems in most cases, moves that do 7% to about 12% tend to have low base at about 20 and below and an average growth of 100. At low and mid-percents, they're going to do enough knockback that it's safe and normal, but not to a ridiculous degree. At high percents, mostly for +10%, they can (decently) KO.
For moves under 7%, usually about 5% and below, jabs are likely going to have set knockback and 100 growth or low base and low growth while others will be multi-hits that have some to average base and higher growth like 40 base and 155 growth. For jabs, you don't really want them to send people flying even if it's a one-hit jab while multi-hits are like the 7% to 12% thing; you just want them to do enough knockback so they're not terrible and have enough knockback to KO decently.
Now, moves that have high damage, +13%, they're likely going to have base to high base and lower growth. Something like 40 base and 88 growth. Still the same story where you don't want them to be ridiculous at low and mid-percents, but want them to KO at high percents.
All of this is an average scenario for moves. There are specifically tuned moves like spikes generally don't have high knockback or Falco's Bair for example has no base, but high growth. Functionally, it's the same as average high damage moves, but starts off very differently and its knockback varies drastically compared to average high damage moves that always do noticeably high knockback; Falco's starts low and quickly goes up to high. Or something like Ike's Uair which has lower growth, but high base like a +13% move, but it's an 11% aerial. Works the same as any other move, but just has different knockback.
Disclaimer: I know jack about Lucina, Marth, and Roy. Be advised, moronic things will be typed up if they haven't already been.
In an unrelated problem: convoluted hit angles and hitboxes. Falco's jab, Dtilt, Side Smash, and Uair, Fox's Dtilt, Mewtwo's Utilt, Dtilt, and Uair... Probably others... Why? Most of them don't even have a ton of range. You could justify Mewtwo's since Mewtwo's tail is so long, but still. Fox's Dtilt shouldn't have 4 different hit angles where it goes from 45 degrees to 90. Just make it 75 degrees the brown part of his tail and the white tip 90. There you go. Not stupid like 45 base, 65 after that, 80 here, and then 90 degrees that's not on his tail tip or the attack trail since apparently, part of Fox's tail is an illusion.
For moves under 7%, usually about 5% and below, jabs are likely going to have set knockback and 100 growth or low base and low growth while others will be multi-hits that have some to average base and higher growth like 40 base and 155 growth. For jabs, you don't really want them to send people flying even if it's a one-hit jab while multi-hits are like the 7% to 12% thing; you just want them to do enough knockback so they're not terrible and have enough knockback to KO decently.
Now, moves that have high damage, +13%, they're likely going to have base to high base and lower growth. Something like 40 base and 88 growth. Still the same story where you don't want them to be ridiculous at low and mid-percents, but want them to KO at high percents.
All of this is an average scenario for moves. There are specifically tuned moves like spikes generally don't have high knockback or Falco's Bair for example has no base, but high growth. Functionally, it's the same as average high damage moves, but starts off very differently and its knockback varies drastically compared to average high damage moves that always do noticeably high knockback; Falco's starts low and quickly goes up to high. Or something like Ike's Uair which has lower growth, but high base like a +13% move, but it's an 11% aerial. Works the same as any other move, but just has different knockback.
Disclaimer: I know jack about Lucina, Marth, and Roy. Be advised, moronic things will be typed up if they haven't already been.
Anyway, as you said, Lucina's knockback is a bit weird. Her base is generally high on all of her moves, but her growth is lower than other characters. Roy's in the same boat, but not so much on his ground normals. All of this could just be blamed on: "They're based on Marth". Not based on like there's a template of a type of character to make, but literally the same knockback and sometimes damage, but different damage or sweet-spot and sour-spot placement for Roy. In some cases, it's fine like their Dtilts aren't really supposed to do much, but poke at people, but in other cases, like needing to KO, it will harm them. Outside of Dair, none of Lucina's aerials do +13%. None of them have even that high of a base except for Nair which being a multi-hit, is justified. If Lucina's Uair had the the same knockback as Corrin and Ike's which would just make it Corrin's, it would be much stronger at the potential cost of Lucina's ability to set up with it like she can. At the same time, something like 25 base and 100 growth might work better. Random numbers that probably made her Uair worse, but the idea is that she can setup with it at low to mid-percents and KO with it at high percents.
I just find it weird is all. Lucina can be a Marth without the tippers, but she doesn't have to do it with Marth's knockback.
I just find it weird is all. Lucina can be a Marth without the tippers, but she doesn't have to do it with Marth's knockback.
In an unrelated problem: convoluted hit angles and hitboxes. Falco's jab, Dtilt, Side Smash, and Uair, Fox's Dtilt, Mewtwo's Utilt, Dtilt, and Uair... Probably others... Why? Most of them don't even have a ton of range. You could justify Mewtwo's since Mewtwo's tail is so long, but still. Fox's Dtilt shouldn't have 4 different hit angles where it goes from 45 degrees to 90. Just make it 75 degrees the brown part of his tail and the white tip 90. There you go. Not stupid like 45 base, 65 after that, 80 here, and then 90 degrees that's not on his tail tip or the attack trail since apparently, part of Fox's tail is an illusion.
I've always said it in my head as "u-air" or "yew-air". If you were French, the "u" would be something like "ew-air". Take that, Bayonnetta, Captain Falcon, Mario, Sheik, Sonic, and ZSS.
It's a very short "ew", though. Not a long one like "ewwww". Anyway, if I were speaking, I'd probably just say, "up air", "back air", etc.
Anyway, loving Oh Wonder's music video of Lose It. Also, the music video of Chet Faker's Gold is badass. Dancing while rollerskating...
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