Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[McKnightlíght]

GGs @ Strong-Arm

I'm very sad I got the gross dark version of the Kesha skin twice.......


How am I supposed to win under those conditions?!

 

[Strong-Arm]

GGs @ Strong-Arm

I'm very sad I got the gross dark version of the Kesha skin twice.......


How am I supposed to win under those conditions?!

 

[FullMoon]

 

[McKnightlíght]

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Honestly, I have no idea how Nintendo came up with the idea of Expert 100 Mario challenge. It is essentially unfair cheap death the game. It's not fun, yet it has to be done in order to unlock mystery costumes. It is like punishment for not getting the amiibos.

 

[Space Stranger]

Who dare summons me from my lurking!?

Speaking of ha is she b& right now?

Recently came back from my 2nd ban. I have moved my ****posting exports elsewhere.

[disappears]

 

[Ffamran]

Naughty naughty child.

Fred... No... NOO! STAY AWAY, FRED! STAY AWAY! Courage the Cowardly Dog was one weird-*** show.

Also, another Samus fail video from the Samus boards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCYCj3et36U.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Naughty naughty child.

Fair is fair.

 

[Ffamran]

Fair is fair.

I felt like a Sheik emote should accompany that.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ty ffamran

 

[KarmaCastle]

Fred... No... NOO! STAY AWAY, FRED! STAY AWAY! Courage the Cowardly Dog was one weird-*** show.

Also, another Samus fail video from the Samus boards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCYCj3et36U.

That's so sad. I knew she had messed up hitboxes on things like Dash attack, but jesus. It's like adding insult to injury when they show the sparks on the other character hurt boxes lmao.

I wonder what she could do if all of her hitboxes worked as intended.

 

[Ffamran]

That's so sad. I knew she had messed up hitboxes on things like Dash attack, but jesus. It's like adding insult to injury when they show the sparks on the other character hurt boxes lmao.

I wonder what she could do if all of her hitboxes worked as intended.

Dash attack works fine... It's like how Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot and Ike's dash attack function: setup or windup and then attack. Problem is that her dash attack is frame 10 and is short-ranged compared to Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot and Ike's dash attack. If it was frame 7 or so, it might not be as bad since it's really telegraphed which Ike's is, but then he suddenly lunges forward with a far-retching uppercut with Ragnell. Made this post a while back for the older Samus fail design.

So... we have an extended version now... Let's give this a rundown. Also, bear in mind that I don't play Samus, so I don't know her enough to make "good" calls.

All right, Nair... Lots of aerials don't really hit when used that close to the ground, so there's nothing wrong with this. It's wonky at times, though... So, take Falco's Uair: it hits from his back to front and there is a hitbox on him, so a center hitbox. Using it close to the ground, if you try to hit with it reversed, it's probably not going to hit. If you try to hit with the front, Falco can hit with his feet, but it'll miss on shorter characters. If he's right next to them, the center hitbox usually hits. Not a Samus issue; it's more of a universal issue for aerials used close to the ground.

Dash attack. We get it, Captain Falcon's dash attack is stupidly disjointed... Samus's is in the same case as Ike's dash attack and Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot. The animation has them setting up before hitting. Nothing wrong with this except that Ike and Ganondorf have more range. Ike's uppercut with Ragnell during dash attack hits under him and reaches far horizontally while Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot as evident by its name has his freaking leg out in front of him and he's traveling fairly quick. Samus's dash attack is a tackle which doesn't exactly have a lot of range since the hitbox is just on her body. What they could do here is make it so Samus readies herself quicker which would mean she hits quicker. Kind of like how Little Mac rushes forward then hits, but he does this much quicker than Samus. So, let's say it's frame 7 now instead of frame 10.

The walking in front and having moves miss... This is a problem for Marth and Lucina's Shield Breaker, pretty sure (Dr.) Mario's Side Smash, and a couple of other moves. DK's Up Smash won't hit Mario while he's next to them or spaced meaning he has to hit peole if they're above them or they're tall enough. That's a bigger issue than this which won't happen a lot. I mean, sure they could make it so Samus has a hitbox that pushes you like ROB's Up Smash, but that would end up giving her like a frame 8 Side Smash that's pretty damn powerful and it's already the fastest Side Smash alongside Marth, Lucina, and the Pits. The major issue here as shown by Link walking into the blast is its active frames. Samus's Side Smash hits on frame 10-11, 2 active frames, contrast this with Marth and Lucina's hitting at frame 10-13, 4 active frames, or the Pits' two-hit Side Smash that hits on frames 10 and 21. Or how about a similarly explosive Side Smash? Mario's at frame 15-17, 3 active frames. Yeah... a simple fix would be to add another frame for the hitbox like what they did to fix Ike's Fair so it hits above him. This would mean Samus's Side Smash should be frame 10-12 instead of the short 10-11.

Screw Attack... Really? No invincibility or anything... Meanwhile, Marth, Lucina, (Dr.) Mario, and Ryu. Simple fix yet again, just give it invincibility or intangibility on startup. It's frame 5, so just make the intangibility frame 5 as well. Invincibility would look cool if it's something like this.

Not going to comment on Missiles since yeah, it's an explosive, but if she had access to 2 kill projectiles that can be set up, it's going to be stupid. Even Villager doesn't have kill projectiles like that. Side Smash is purely vertical, Fair and Bair don't really kill until later percents unless you're near the blast zones, dash attack isn't that powerful, Lloid doesn't really kill well or is intended to kill, and calling the Tree a projectile is kind of pushing it...

Down Smash for its power should be faster. As in the Pits, Zelda, and Ryu faster which would more or less undermine her unique Down Smash... Well, it should be unique. I don't know, making it faster would just help right now. If you could do something else, then sure.

Dtilt... Ike's Dtilt doesn't kill at that percent either. Why? Because apparently, explosions and enchanted two-handed swords are pathetically weak compared to an anthropomorphic pheasant's tail that kills 100% earlier than theirs sweet-spotted or about 40% with the disjoint. Fantastic logic... They should have given Falco a sick sweep kick to justify that ridiculous power... Nope, diamond tail swipe. Anyway, Samus's Dtilt functions as a launcher for setups which is fine... Except that Ike gets to act 11 frames earlier and Falco gets to act 13 frames earlier. They could reduce the end lag... Just saying.

Animation, animation, animation... Look, if one of Samus's throws was something like her F-throw has her fire a slightly charged shot pointblank and it didn't kill, I'd be ****** too, but it's this weird shocky, whippy, throwy things... At least make it so rage affects her U-throw like Marth, Lucina, and Roy's.

Yay... The ol' I'm super tall, so let's give me a move that hits above me. Good anti-air, but horrible ground move and guess who else suffers? DK, except his Up Smash is more consistent when connecting. They might want to make it so all the loop hits auto-link instead of the first and fourth hits... Same with Uair and Fair's looping hits.

Charge Shot isn't transcendent and neither is Aura Sphere. Pretty sure Shadow Ball is. So...? Being able to negate projectiles with projectiles can be considered a good thing. I don't think they have this mechanic in place, but they could do something where charged projectiles like this "eat" weaker projectiles instead of having to rely on transcendent or not. So, if Ryu fires a Hadouken, it'll negate other projectiles and this would be the same for Samus, Lucario, and Mewtwo firing their uncharged projectiles, but if they use their fully-charged ones, it would "eat" the weaker projectiles and continue on. Against other charged projectiles, they should just negate each other and against transcendent projectiles, it'll be the same. So, Falco fires his Blaster and Samus fires her Charge Shot uncharged or charged, his will pass through and hit and so will Samus's.

As for Missiles, again... Recoil damage? So, if Samus gets hit while launching it, it could just explode in her face and damage both her and her opponent. There you go, now both parties are going to get hurt. Can't help with shorter folk running under projectiles since unless your an idiot firing like a gangster, you're short, or you're crouching while shooting, there's not much you can change.

 

[Furret]

[disappears]

 

[Antonykun]

Fred... No... NOO! STAY AWAY, FRED! STAY AWAY! Courage the Cowardly Dog was one weird-*** show.

Also, another Samus fail video from the Samus boards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCYCj3et36U.

Samus's grab being the worst triggered me so hard

 

[Rickster]

Fred... No... NOO! STAY AWAY, FRED! STAY AWAY! Courage the Cowardly Dog was one weird-*** show.

Also, another Samus fail video from the Samus boards: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCYCj3et36U.

I find all these fail compilstions really funny for some reason. I liked the beginning and very end the best.

I wonder if this will even make an impact on the balance team at all. But she definitely needs some adjustments. Not even Zelda has some of these problems.
I also didn't know the Phantom could block projectiles from behind her during the startup that's kinda neat

 

[LonkQ]

The sad thing is, Samus grab frustrates me. I have this weird weakness to tether grabs. Every time I spot dodge ZSS's grab, I get hit by the lingering whip part.

 

[Ffamran]

I find all these fail compilstions really funny for some reason. I liked the beginning and very end the best.

I wonder if this will even make an impact on the balance team at all. But she definitely needs some adjustments. Not even Zelda has some of these problems.
I also didn't know the Phantom could block projectiles from behind her during the startup that's kinda neat

Considering that the Super Mario Maker stage trailer had Samus first appear doing nothing, but run around like a headless chicken and then appear for the 3DS version of the stage only to get killed by a mini mushroom'd Link after shooting a Missile... I think they know and they might end up making her a joke character because of this.

 

[SBphiloz4]

SO I GOT FEATURED IN EMG'S PLAY OF THE WEEK. AT 4:29

BUT IT WAS FOR THE WRONG REASON. IT WAS WHEN I GOT TAUNT SPIKED BY THAT FRAUD LUIGI PLAYER A MONTH AGO LOL

 

[Ffamran]

Feet be hauntin' SBphiloz4.

 

[Rickster]

Considering that the Super Mario Maker stage trailer had Samus first appear doing nothing, but run around like a headless chicken and then appear for the 3DS version of the stage only to get killed by a mini mushroom'd Link after shooting a Missile... I think they know and they might end up making her a joke character because of this.

Wow, I just researched it and...that's exactly what Samus is doing. Running around doing nothing then getting KO'd.

That's really funny and sad at the same time. For Samus, at least.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Oh, also my region is going to try and get rid of Castle Siege from the stagelist for one of the 3 main tourneys we have here. We are now down to 5 starters and 3 counterpicks.

But we still have Delfino Plaza. And Dave's Stupid Rule.

 

[Ffamran]

Wow, I just researched it and...that's exactly what Samus is doing. Running around doing nothing then getting KO'd.

That's really funny and sad at the same time. For Samus, at least.

I don't know if the Samus boards noticed that and raged... Probably.

 

[BJN39]

Jeez, the Samus players need to get over themselves sometimes.

They still seem to hold to that she's also very difficult to use too.

I don't even get the part about the ground spike kill confirms that are now gone. None of that probably ever worked. IDK what they're talking about when they say something was altered there.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't even get the part about the ground spike kill confirms that are now gone. None of that probably ever worked. IDK what they're talking about when they say something was altered there.

Didn't watch the video... Why at this point, since they're just going to make another one. So, because people learned to tech that, it's apparently gone? Unless you were a robot or had tool-assist, you can't always tech everything, because everything else is involved. You'd have to expect it and that comes from prediction or that Samus player was horribly predictable.

People still don't tech Fox's fast fall Fair or Nair or Dair to Up Smash when they have the chance. They can't when they're in the air and in hit stun, but the moment you land and people seen Fox players constantly use this setup, you should expect this setup and tech.

The other stuff like walking into people and Smashes missing or using aerials way too close to the ground... All universal problems for many characters. It's like they're the black sheep of the family and making sure people know which ****** off people. There's a difference between whining and pointing out issues.

 

[Trieste SP]

Ah... just had some tea.

It calms the nerves. At least for me.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The sad thing is, Samus grab frustrates me. I have this weird weakness to tether grabs. Every time I spot dodge ZSS's grab, I get hit by the lingering whip part.

roll towards her when she runs at you

 

[Rickster]

They are being a little whiney, but I can understand their frustration. Every other Low tier has gotten good buffs the last 2-3 patches, except for Samus. She was said to be "the best character" before release, which hyped her up some. She has a lot of hitbox issues and her unsuited self does almost everything better than her. Terrible roll, can't camp effectively because of lag missles+no priority. Combo game consisting mostly of spikes into the ground, which are reachable. Awful grab with no significant reward...

She's just a complete mess right now.
But then again my opinions are weird because I think Zelda is being underrated but oh well secretkpop

 

[Lavani]

reminder that din's fire got nerfed

 

[KuroganeHammer]

reminder that din's fire got nerfed

its important

 

[Soul.]

everyone is whiny.
i want rat pokémon buffs so that the apparent pessimism can go stay in a fire kappa

 

[ぱみゅ]

Samus *did* get a buff on her Usmash, making it link slightly better on most cases, but it still is pretty bad.

I am not sure if that move is even a good design choice.

 

[LonkQ]

roll towards her when she runs at you

I'm still not used to rolling. I'm still in the mindset where rolling, bad, shield and spotdodge, good. I think I overcompensate for being super rolly in Brawl at the start and learning that it wasn't a good idea after the first couple months.

 

[Rickster]

I don't get how they can't fix her Usmash right. They got Zelda's, Mewtwo's, Villager, and Bowser Jr.'s right, but not Samus's.

Like how do you do that

 

[BJN39]

Samus's Usmash, while alike to Zelda, Villager, ZSS, Sonic's, etc, it is inherently made different worse.

Instead of a static hitbox area above her for the move, it has wonky 5 hit placements where you gain and lose certain areas of coverage. Which is inherently worse imo.

I also wanna say maybe Samus's Usmash doesn't suck people up from the ground also because it's an anti-air like Pit's or MK's, and not a ground-based start like Zelda's or Diddy's kind of are.

 

[McKnightlíght]

Just wanted to say that I love Somic's up smash and I hope they don't nerf it.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't get how they can't fix her Usmash right. They got Zelda's, Mewtwo's, Villager, and Bowser Jr.'s right, but not Samus's.

Like how do you do that

Samus is supposed to be 1.91 m (6' 3") tall outside of her suit. In her Power Suit, I'm going to guess she's around 2 m (6' 5") to 2.05 m (6' 7"). For a frame of reference, Ganondorf is 2.3 m (7' 6 1/2") and Fox and Little Mac are both 1.73 m (5' 7"). Samus is tall and her Up Smash arcs above her. Zelda leans back a little and all her loop hits have auto-link angles alongside whatever else angles. Note how close she keeps her hand to her body. Apparently, Zelda is slightly taller than ZSS, but still shorter than Samus.

Samus stands up making herself taller and raises her arm cannon up during Up Smash and her Up Smash only auto-links on the first and fourth hit. Gee, I wonder why it doesn't link correctly. Add auto-link angles to it then! Couldn't find a gif for Smash 4 Samus. Pretty sure Mewtwo has a hitbox around him like Marth and Lucina letting him launch people into the main hits. They could do that for Samus, but they probably won't.

Oh, and her Dtilt might be good, but Ike's Dtilt is pretty much the same thing, except he gets to act 11 frames earlier while Falco gets to act 13 frames earlier. That's another simple fix for Samus; reduce the end lag. Also, DK's Up Smash is still wonky since it can't scoop people at pointblank for some reason. That's just a hitbox issue.

Samus's Usmash, while alike to Zelda, Villager, ZSS, Sonic's, etc, it is inherently made different worse.

Instead of a static hitbox area above her for the move, it has wonky 5 hit placements where you gain and lose certain areas of coverage. Which is inherently worse imo.

I also wanna say maybe Samus's Usmash doesn't suck people up from the ground also because it's an anti-air like Pit's or MK's, and not a ground-based start like Zelda's or Diddy's kind of are.

Can't you hit people on the ground with the Pits' Up Smash and Meta Knight's short, so there's that...

 

[Cress!]

I was playing around on For Glory, spreading the BAN •ZELDA tag without a care in the world, when THIS NESS HAPPENED. THIS NESS DESERVES A WTF.

Spoiler: Ness triggers me. A lot of characters do tbh

There was another guy named Edward who was trying to do some friendlies with this person. No wait, mindless beast. People have feelings.

At least I got a lot of funny videos before that. A lot of lagning kicks. A whole lot

 

[KuroganeHammer]

ZELDA IS TALLER THAN 6'3" WHAT

 

[Ffamran]

Eh, hell if I know why. It doesn't help that some characters like Ike don't stand straight - why would they, when they're fighting - and others do like Zelda, so I think it's slightly skewed. This is like their "fighting stance" height which for some, is actually a fighting stance and for others, not. Also, I think they retconned Samus's height to 1.56 m (5' 1") in Other M. If Zelda was that tall and ZSS that short, ZSS's heels would need to be 12 inches to be close to Zelda's height and that would be ridiculous. From here: smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/.

RESULTS​

As a reminder, all heights are in "bricks," and some heights have higher significant digits due to it being the average of two representative animation cycle heights.

Spoiler: Character Height Ranking

Rank | Position | Character | Average Height
1|Stand|Ganondorf|5.625
2|Stand|Bowser|5.55
3|Stand|Rosalina and Luma|5.15
4|Stand|Captain Falcon|5
5|Stand|Samus|4.925
6|Stand|Donkey Kong|4.925
7|Stand|King Dedede|4.85
8|Stand|Wii Fit|4.8
9|Stand|Zelda|4.75
10|Stand|Shulk|4.7
11|Stand|Marth|4.7
12|Stand|Zero Suit Samus|4.675
13|Stand|Palutena|4.65
14|Stand|Lucina|4.6
15|Stand|Link|4.575
16|Stand|Robin|4.51
17|Stand|ROB|4.5
18|Stand|Ike|4.475
19|Stand|Mewtwo|4.45
20|Stand|Sheik|4.425
21|Stand|Peach|4.4
22|Stand|Pit|4.4
23|Stand|Dark Pit|4.4
24|Stand|Yoshi|4.4
25|Stand|Falco|4.375
26|Crouch ARM|King Dedede|4.3
27|Stand|Bowser Jr|4.2
28|Stand|Luigi|4.2
29|Crouch|Ganondorf|4.05
30|Stand|Sonic|3.95
31|Stand|Fox|3.9
32|Crouch|Bowser|3.9
33|Stand|Little Mac|3.875
34|Stand|Mario|3.85
35|Stand|Pac Man|3.775
36|Stand|Mega Man|3.75
37|Stand|Lucario|3.7
38|Crouch|Samus|3.65
39|Stand|Dr. Mario|3.6
40|Stand|Charizard|3.575
41|Stand|Villager|3.525
42|Stand|Wario|3.525
43|Stand|Ness|3.45
44|Stand|Toon Link|3.45
45|Stand|Diddy Kong|3.25
46|Crouch|Donkey Kong|3.22
47|Crouch HAND|Shulk|3.21
48|Crouch HEAD|King Dedede|3.2
49|Crouch|Mewtwo|3.2
50|Crouch|Rosalina and Luma|3.175
51|Crouch|Palutena|3.11
52|Stand|Duck Hunt|3.1
53|Stand|Mr. Game and Watch|3.075
54|Crouch|ROB|3.01
55|Crouch ARM|Charizard|3
56|Crouch|Falco|2.91
57|Crouch|Zelda|2.9
58|Stand|Olimar|2.9
59|Stand|Jigglypuff|2.875
60|Crouch|Link|2.855
61|Crouch|Pac Man|2.85
62|Crouch ARM|Captain Falcon|2.85
63|Crouch|Wario|2.76
64|Crouch|Bowser Jr|2.75
65|Crouch HEAD|Shulk|2.71
66|Crouch|Fox|2.7
67|Crouch HEAD|Captain Falcon|2.675
68|Crouch|Toon Link|2.65
69|Stand|Kirby|2.65
70|Crouch|Pit|2.575
71|Crouch|Dark Pit|2.575
72|Stand|Pikachu|2.555
73|Crouch|Robin|2.55
74|Stand|Meta Knight|2.5
75|Stand|Greninja|2.475
76|Crouch|Zero Suit Samus|2.45
77|Crouch|Peach|2.35
78|Crouch|Diddy Kong|2.325
79|Crouch|Luigi|2.31
80|Crouch|Yoshi|2.3
81|Crouch|Marth|2.3
82|Crouch|Ike|2.3
83|Crouch HAND|Mega Man|2.21
84|Crouch|Duck Hunt|2.2
85|Crouch|Lucina|2.2
86|Crouch|Villager|2.175
87|Crouch|Little Mac|2.11
88|Crouch|Olimar|2.1
89|Crouch|Dr. Mario|2.1
90|Crouch|Meta Knight|2.075
91|Crouch|Mario|2
92|Crouch (guess)|Sonic|1.91
93|Crouch|Lucario|1.9
94|Crouch HEAD|Mega Man|1.8
95|Crouch HEAD|Charizard|1.75
96|Crouch|Ness|1.65
97|Crouch ARM|Sheik|1.61
98|Crouch|Greninja|1.6
99|Crouch|Pikachu|1.575
100|Crouch|Jigglypuff|1.3
101|Crouch|Mr. Game and Watch|1.175
102|Crouch HEAD|Sheik|1.15
103|Crouch|Kirby|1.15
104|Crouch BUTT|Wii Fit|1.075
105|Crouch HEAD|Wii Fit|0.975

 

[Furret]

ZELDA IS TALLER THAN 6'3" WHAT