Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Koiba]

ggs @Tilk~

Those were fun! My attempt at ZSS is so bad but as long as I get a boost kick kill I'm happy lol

 

[Ffamran]

Falco does great damage per hit and gets legit followups from throws. Combination of a stunning projectile and a reflector is pretty great, too. He's kind of overshadowed by Greninja and ZSS but they have slow grabs (Greninja's dash grab notwithstanding). Falco has a normal one.

The issue is getting in which Greninja and ZSS can just bumrush if they want since pure mobility specs, but they have very rewarding projectiles. Their grabs might be slow, but they have much better range than Falco's and their ground speed can make slow grabs not that slow. Fox and Captain Falcon's Dash grabs aren't fast, but they're fast which makes their grabs seem fast. Falco's slow and his standing grab is among the third slowest melee grabs.

Don't get me wrong, I complain a lot (about Falco), but Falco's strengths are pretty much defining of his character. The only major issue would be neutral. Bad disadvantage is whatever since Fox's is bad and Captain Falcon's just sad. It's neutral where it sort of matters and with Falco's neutral lacking in things like mobility, range, a good projectile, or safe moves like Marth who can throw out disjoints instead of a hitbox-hurtbox or Sheik, it's kind of an issue. Even Zelda's neutral is probably better in a sense that Din's Fire's bad, but you can use it as a distraction, she has disjoints like Nayru's Love, and Farore's Wind can work as a punish and escape options. Oh, someone's going to bumrush you? Farore's Wind out or Nayru's Love them. Oh, and if Ftilt was faster or if it did more shield damage - please, next patch -, Zelda's got a potent spacing tool. Falco has well, a "functioning" Blaster and Reflector which is incredibly punishable on shield. Jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt are all good, but how does Falco get into melee range? I mean, Fox and Falco do share some issues, but imagine if Fox had the same running speed as Falco... Yeah, Fox is probably not going to do so hot, but his Blaster at least has lower end lag and Bair's ridiculous auto-cancel and good range is still there.

The "easiest fix" to Falco would be to boost his ground speed up. His jump is good and having good air speed with lingering moves like Nair and Fair, a strong kill move like Bair, and his Uair would evil. Falco running between Ryu and DK's speeds would make him better as he can advance and chase quicker. His neutral wouldn't suddenly rise up, he'd need Fox's speed at the least, but he'd have an easier time moving towards his opponent. This is a fix where as long as it's reasonable, Falco won't end up polarizing, he would perform better, but he wouldn't magically become high tier. The other would be changing his Blaster. Done in the wrong way, he could end up with something like Sheik's Needles at the worst. That's a move that would take a lot of testing even with "simple" number changes. Reducing end lag would be the other "easy fix". It'd just give Falco an easier time fighting at range. Done right, it could just be Fox's Blaster, but with set knockback instead of Sheik's wacky Needles causing knockback. Of all the things, really? Needles hurt, but they shouldn't slap you back. If anything, it should be the one doing set knockback instead of Falco's.

Falco's advantage someone said was kind of like Captain Falcon's. I don't agree with that, but in a way, it's kind of similar except not as ridiculous. Point being that Falco freestyles which other characters including Captain Falcon do, but Falco doesn't do it in an "easy" way. Falco doesn't have Captain Falcon's speed, but what he does have are fast, hard hits. He combos as he kills and that's one thing I love about Falco. You start off being able to combo a ton and at kill percent, it's the kill move is same move that you comboed with. Almost all characters combo off of throws, but can many characters say the can combo off of any move they throw out? Ryu comes to mind, but at the same time, Fox, Mario, Luigi, Sheik, Captain Falcon, Zelda, Samus, etc. can too, but people just either obsess with throw combos or in some cases, throw combos are much more reliable like Luigi. I bet Luigi could Utilt and start a combo, but it's not as easy as D-throwing. Falco choose to grab or he skips it by using another move in place like Dtilt or Utilt to start. Chillin mentioning that PM Wolf doesn't have true combos, but combos nonetheless through reading DI and knowing how his moves work clicked with Falco in Smash 4. Play perfectly and Falco can take you from 0 to 40% in like four hits, but even without comboing, each hit he does will easily take you to 40%. This is also why stock deficits kind of don't mean much to Falco compared to Sheik where that killing issue does become more noticeable when you have to be on point and that 8 of your hits might only do 40%.

Each characters' play styles are awesome to watch. Ike hits you and you can feel the impact. His combos are usually just 1 to 2 hits, but man, they hurt and they look awesome. Well, to me they do, but people do obsess with long combos which probably turns them away from Ike. Ganondorf can combo if you let him, but being able to boot people and send them off the stage is hilarious, Mega Man plays like he's in Mega Man, and Marth playing precisely and patiently makes him feel like a fencer. At the same time, it does get boring seeing Captain Falcon after Captain Falcon, Sheik after Sheik, and Luigi after Luigi. What's worse is that people cookie cut these characters. Yes, every character has their bread and butter, but if that's all you got and even though it's really good like Diddy's, it's still freaking boring. Seeing Sheik players use Utilt, Dtilt, and Down Smash to start, extend, or punish are great, but it's not really common and if it is, it's because people started copying and attempting to be ZeRo's Sheik or be Boss's Luigi. Even if you have similar play styles, you can be them since you aren't them. I remember a Diddy player who used Banana Peels in a clever way and who didn't use Dtilt when it was all the rage. That was an interesting Diddy. Angel Cortes incorporating Dair to his combos is an interesting Diddy. what's not interesting it Mario player #129389 using Utilt to try and string at 100% because they saw some Mario player use it, but don't understand why it even works.

I'd like to see more Falco, Zelda, Samus, Robin, Toon Link, Link, Bowser, Charizard, Mega Man, etc. play and if that means there has to be nerfs to some characters to even the playing field or better, buffs, then sure, go ahead. I'd be okay with Zelda being top 15 if that means there will be more Zelda gameplay and hopefully sassy gameplay instead of cookie cutter Zelda gameplay. Then again, Greninja is a high tier, but only 1 really good Greninja plays him and is known for it.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja doesn't really bum-rush anyone. He's a punish based character so he waits for you to mess up instead.

People saying Greninja is high tier amuses me a bit since I place him in mid-high myself.

 

[Ffamran]

Greninja doesn't really bum-rush anyone. He's a punish based character so he waits for you to mess up instead.

People saying Greninja is high tier amuses me a bit since I place him in mid-high myself.

At basic level play, he can bumrush. Bumrushing itself is a tactic since you could fake out bumrushing. Remember Captain Falcon? Bumrushing and fake bumrushing are things he does well. Falco? Falco can hop around and it's a legit strategy, but a stupidly hilarious one. That's pretty much his only fake out he has other than jab mixups and frame trapping. Greninja's options are much more with Hydro Pump and natural speed.

 

[Macchiato]

I think Smash Wii U is probably the most terrific community. They whine about everything.

"Better ban this" "Better ban that"

WHY DON'T YOU ****ING TRY TO FIND A SOLUTION

...

Shofu legit just called me a scrub for simply liking customs. And now I have his followers on my case, blowing my Twitter up, trying to tell me that low/bottom-tier characters should stay bad and that they're somehow well-designed because they were intended to be bad. Completely ignoring the fact that patches exist and low-tiers keep getting buffed in them, which obviously means they weren't intended to be that bad.

I swear to God this community sometimes, LMAO. Crap like this and the customs debate in general really make me wanna quit Smash 4 and go find a well-designed video game to compete in...

LINK ME TO THIS HOE. BOUT TO EXPOSE A FRAUDULENT HOE

 

[Rizen]

There are places online like twitter, tumbler, youtube comments etc where trolls take out their anger about having microscopic d***s on the world.

 

[Deleted member]

...

Shofu legit just called me a scrub for simply liking customs. And now I have his followers on my case, blowing my Twitter up, trying to tell me that low/bottom-tier characters should stay bad and that they're somehow well-designed because they were intended to be bad. Completely ignoring the fact that patches exist and low-tiers keep getting buffed in them, which obviously means they weren't intended to be that bad.

I swear to God this community sometimes, LMAO. Crap like this and the customs debate in general really make me wanna quit Smash 4 and go find a well-designed video game to compete in...

...But Shofu isn't even good...

 

[Space Stranger]

I swear to God this community sometimes, LMAO. Crap like this and the customs debate in general really make me wanna quit Smash 4 and go find a well-designed video game to compete in...

But wow, this community can really get pretty stupid over small things. Sorry that happened.

 

[FullMoon]

At basic level play, he can bumrush. Bumrushing itself is a tactic since you could fake out bumrushing. Remember Captain Falcon? Bumrushing and fake bumrushing are things he does well. Falco? Falco can hop around and it's a legit strategy, but a stupidly hilarious one. That's pretty much his only fake out he has other than jab mixups and frame trapping. Greninja's options are much more with Hydro Pump and natural speed.

I suppose. I probably shouldn't say much about this considering I play Greninja too aggressively for my own good.

Anyway, frogs!

 

[Soul.]

lol
Whichever is the norm, default or customs, will result in absolute whining. I'm so tired of hearing the same **** all over again.

 

[Rizen]

lol
Whichever is the norm, default or customs, will result in absolute whining. I'm so tired of hearing the same **** all over again.

And even people with no opinion join in the "whining". There's a good case for not allowing customs. If you don't like the debate you don't have to listen to it but don't criticize the people who actually bring up good points. Customs or not is a relevant issue to the future of SSB4 tournaments.

 

[Soul.]

but don't criticize the people who actually bring up good points.

never did though

 

[Cenizas]

Well, I was gone all day because I had to go to a picnic with my mom to see her old colleagues, and I spent most of it chatting with two black women about ice cream and Real Housewives.

Go figure.

 

[Rizen]

never did though

Well okay. I'm just saying that it's an important issue but there are a lot of whiners too *shrug

 

[Soul.]

Well okay. I'm just saying that it's an important issue but there are a lot of whiners too *shrug

it's fine man. i know it's important but it irks me to see things like this.

 

[Macchiato]

Well, I was gone all day because I had to go to a picnic with my mom to see her old colleagues, and I spent most of it chatting with two black women about ice cream and Real Housewives.

Go figure.

When your living my dream life. Like wow goals

 

[Rickster]

I wouldn't mind customs being banned since Zelda goes from being sorta viable to absolutely not viable with them on IMO.

Yeah that's right I said she's viable FITE ME IRL GORLS

 

[Macchiato]

I wouldn't mind customs being banned since Zelda goes from being sorta viable to absolutely not viable with them on IMO.

Yeah that's right I said she's viable FITE ME IRL GORLS

Really? HmMmM I feel like flare helps a lot since she can finally force an approach.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Tbf some characters are poorly designed (Lucario, Zelda etc.) but at the same time some customs are horribly designed (do I even have to mention them though lol).

But the thing is that with these patches, they only seem to really balance characters in a custom-less meta (there have been very few changes to any of the customs so far). Sure some low tiers do get buffed but so do quite a few of the top tiers, then you have Jiggy, Zelda & LM who just become near enough completely unviable with customs just from the fact everyone else benefits from them more than they do & them not being particularly great characters to begin with.

I know the customs meta has it's fair share of problems, I'm not blind to it's faults. I agree that some customs are pretty damn stupid and they should be dealt with one way or another. Customs not being patched as often as default moves is concerning as well. However, I don't think the truly dumb ones are as numerous or as much of a problem as people make them out to be (ESAM tried to abuse HSB this weekend but failed more often than not from what I saw) and I feel that people underestimate how big the number of non-top 15 characters who benefit from customs is. Plus, overloaded specials aren't an issue only the customs meta faces; default has some incredibly "jank" ones, too. Only difference is that they're pretty much exclusive to the top-tiers there, customs spread 'em out.

I don't want the customs meta to take over, either. I think, when possible, both should be run so no one is forced to play the meta they dislike. That, or ban the ones people hate. I suppose it'd be "unfair" to the characters who'd be directly affected by this, but IMO that idea's a whole lot better than punishing EVERY non-top-tier who benefits from customs just because some are silly.

And you should play Muhley lol

Crap like this and the customs debate in general really make me wanna quit Smash 4 and go find a well-designed video game to compete in...

I kid, I kid. Melee is pretty fun but I don't have much of a passion for it so I'd probably just be wasting my time.

 

[Rickster]

Really? HmMmM I feel like flare helps a lot since she can finally force an approach.

I mean...they help her a little bit, but nothing compared to stuff like Luma Warp, Shooting Starbit, Gravity Grenade, that one DK UpB, Twisting Fox.

She just doesn't gain enough to compete.

 

[SBphiloz4]

So a Robin won the anime convention tourney, beating my friends in top 8 and in Grand Finals. I was salty and challenged him to a grudge match. If I lose, I will pay $5, if I won, I would get honour of avenging my friends.

"4MYFRIENDS" TAG LET'S GO

Beat him 3-1 in the end so I didn't mind losing in the first round because it was BO1 tbh :^)

 

[NekoJubei]

Oh em gee. aerial phantom Strike combos to Farore's wind on heavyweights

 

[Macchiato]

I mean...they help her a little bit, but nothing compared to stuff like Luma Warp, Shooting Starbit, Gravity Grenade, that one DK UpB, Twisting Fox.

She just doesn't gain enough to compete.

The move itself isn't good but the fact that it fixed her biggest weakness makes it a great move.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Macchiato, pls explain to me how Zelda does anything against aggro Villager

 

[Macchiato]

Macchiato, pls explain to me how Zelda does anything against aggro Villager

Basically just shield and punish because how do you not react to the really slow grab.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Basically just shield and punish because how do you not react to the really slow grab.

villager confirmed worst character just shield and punish

have fun with your bottom tier trash @Fernosaur @ Kofu

 

[Macchiato]

villager confirmed worst character just shield and punish

have fun with your bottom tier trash @Fernosaur @ Kofu

Idk its hard to explain, I'll just send you a replay of how I deal with it... monday

 

[Furret]

wait a sec though, chu dat in top 8
with the full stock comeback on sopo

 

[kenniky]

Basically just shield and punish because how do you not react to the really slow grab.

RIP when axe kills 3/4 of your shield

 

[Rizen]

I wouldn't mind customs being banned since Zelda goes from being sorta viable to absolutely not viable with them on IMO.

Yeah that's right I said she's viable FITE ME IRL GORLS

Link actually gets a boost with customs, nothing jank though. I'm still against customs.
The problem with everyone using the term 'viable' is it's subjective. Especially in smash 4 where most characters can potentially win a tournament, unlike Brawl. IMO Zelda can potentially win but she isn't as good as mid or high tiers overall.

 

[Kofu]

never did though

Not that you did, but people do this in real discussions. You know Seagull Joe? Basically every time he tries to argue against customs, people automatically dismiss him because he complains about them (especially when he loses). But you know what? He has good points anyway and they need to be considered.

villager confirmed worst character just shield and punish

have fun with your bottom tier trash @Fernosaur @ Kofu

Oh I do, don't worry

 

[Cenizas]

villager confirmed worst character just shield and punish

have fun with your bottom tier trash @Fernosaur @ Kofu

tfw everyone forgets you main Villager. I have to say though, Villager doesn't really aggro that well, and Zelda often gets more reward off a punish than Villager can get off as he really doesn't have any combos unless you let him pocket Phantom or something. Nayru's can stuff Villager's aerial CQC and a grounded Villager might still outrange you with d-tilt or w/e but nothing's going to kill you except u-smash but he's about as fast as Zelda so it isn't practical to run up and use it. And neither can gimp each other so their best assets are pretty much invalid.

 

[Deleted member]

@ Kofu

Okay so when you liked my post about Shofu, I read your name as "Shofu" and I'm over here like "OOOH GURL SOME **** IS ABOUT TO GO DOWN"

 

[Antonykun]

...

Shofu legit just called me a scrub for simply liking customs. And now I have his followers on my case, blowing my Twitter up, trying to tell me that low/bottom-tier characters should stay bad and that they're somehow well-designed because they were intended to be bad. Completely ignoring the fact that patches exist and low-tiers keep getting buffed in them, which obviously means they weren't intended to be that bad.

I swear to God this community sometimes, LMAO. Crap like this and the customs debate in general really make me wanna quit Smash 4 and go find a well-designed video game to compete in...

Smash 4 is a well desinged game its just the community around here is hair pullingly stupid and ready to do some of the most amazing mental gymnastic to not do customs
Its a real shame

 

[Ffamran]

I suppose. I probably shouldn't say much about this considering I play Greninja too aggressively for my own good.

I'm naturally aggressive which is why my Falco, Ike, and Ganondorf get punished so hard. My play style fits Fox, but I refuse to use him. I have no competitive future while maining Falco with a hyper-aggressive play style.

Anyway, frogs!

I like frogs. Apparently those bubbles around Froakie's neck are called "frubbles".

 

[Kofu]

tfw everyone forgets you main Villager. I have to say though, Villager doesn't really aggro that well, and Zelda often gets more reward off a punish than Villager can get off as he really doesn't have any combos unless you let him pocket Phantom or something. Nayru's can stuff Villager's aerial CQC and a grounded Villager might still outrange you with d-tilt or w/e but nothing's going to kill you except u-smash but he's about as fast as Zelda so it isn't practical to run up and use it. And neither can gimp each other so their best assets are pretty much invalid.

Aggro Villager basically puts pressure on the opponent until they screw up then he goes in. Villager doesn't really camp very well IMO. Lloids are slow and easily blocked/dodged at range, especially when Villager isn't following after them. Slingshots are short-ranged (for projectiles) and are inconsistent against many characters.

I don't believe Villager is awful for Zelda but it all hinges on Nayru's Love. Unfortunately for her it's a notable commitment which, if read, kind of messes her up bad. Kind of like Mewtwo vs. Villager only he has it worse because he's combo food.

 

[Rickster]

Tbh I was kinda crossed out by Froakie.

Then I found out what a "Greninja" was and regretted not picking it LOL.

I was also a little disappointed with Delphox after its first two forms. I got screwed over in XY smh.

 

[Antonykun]

Basically just shield and punish because how do you not react to the really slow grab.

dude Villager can jab sheilds do death and Zelda's slow ass grab wont do much about it he can even decide to ignore your sheild and pressure your sheild with slingshots from a distance

Aggro Villager basically puts pressure on the opponent until they screw up then he goes in. Villager doesn't really camp very well IMO. Lloids are slow and easily blocked/dodged at range, especially when Villager isn't following after them. Slingshots are short-ranged (for projectiles) and are inconsistent against many characters.

I don't believe Villager is awful for Zelda but it all hinges on Nayru's Love. Unfortunately for her it's a notable commitment which, if read, kind of messes her up bad. Kind of like Mewtwo vs. Villager only he has it worse because he's combo food.

Villager really should be in your face very often imo he lacks a really good way to deal with large pokes because of his poor range.
Instead he should really bring pressure with slingshots until he can drop a bait like Lloyd into a punish or something

 

[Koiba]

Tbh I was kinda crossed out by Froakie.

Then I found out what a "Greninja" was and regretted not picking it LOL.

I was also a little disappointed with Delphox after its first two forms. I got screwed over in XY smh.

Quilladin and Chesnaught make me cry ;_________;

 

[FullMoon]

I like frogs. Apparently those bubbles around Froakie's neck are called "frubbles".

Yup, I actually wrote a scientific-ish report on the Froakie line for a just-for-fun Pokédex project in TV Tropes and so I had to talk about those. Good thing I watch the anime =P

Tbh I was kinda crossed out by Froakie.

Then I found out what a "Greninja" was and regretted not picking it LOL.

I was also a little disappointed with Delphox after its first two forms. I got screwed over in XY smh.

Your story in a comic made after X/Y got announced:

I was Team Froakie all the way because after Oshawott I was sure Froakie would get a cool last evolution