Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[Ffamran]

Samus - Can't kill, people fall out of all her multihitting moves, moves are slow, shields shut her down, no approach, bad neutral, tall and floaty.

Samus's moves are fairly average in speed and she has good range because, well... she's tall. Her Uair is godplayer and stupid. If it was a kill move, it would be even more stupid. Screw Attack is a good OOS move and a move you cannot challenge, her ability to recover is fairly good because of her Bombs allowing her to move around in the air, Bair sweet-spotted is powerful, Nair and Bair allow her to mixup her stage spike, Dair has good range and power along with being a fairly easy spike to land, Dtilt is a good launcher tool along with being able to kill, and Side Smash being as fast as Marth and Lucina while being powerful gives her an edge to quickly punish.

Here's her one of problems: jab. Of all the moves in the world, her jab has to be bad and unsafe. Zelda at least has quick IASA while Ganondorf has knockback on his, but Samus's is just sad because of the two hits. If it was just the second hit, then whatever. Kill options: aside from like Charge Shot, Screw Attack near the ceiling, Bair, Dair spike, Side Smash, and Charge Shot, she doesn't really have much when Up Smash can't hit shorties, Nair isn't that strong, Uair and Fair are more for comboing, Dtilt kills a bit late, and Utilt kind of needs to hit without the spike hitbox to kill. Landing lag and end lag would also be against her as while Side Smash is fast, she can't really spam the move. Being a heavyweight does help her survive.

Samus doesn't need to approach since she's built to be a zoner, but she's not that fast or strong up close like Link who has disjoints and he hits hard. Of all the zoners, she kind of zones a bit slowly like er... Pac-Man and Triple D? Falco is not included as a zoner because he sucks. Shields pretty much shut down everyone, but you can't sit in shield for the entire match. She could just space a grab and wreck your shield.

 

[Lorde]

Samus - Can't kill, people fall out of all her multihitting moves, moves are slow, shields shut her down, no approach, bad neutral, tall and floaty.

I'm 99% sure that Samus's frame data is actually pretty decent. I could check but I'm on mobile so nty.

All of your other points are true, though.

 

[Antonykun]

like Swordfighter has problems but I don't think he has as much as Samus.

I think that I am going through low tier main Syndrome as I believe that Swordfighter is low not bottom tier
his neutral is really rewarding and even good with the right build. His mobility is lacking but smaller miis can make up for it sometimes

 

[Antonykun]

I'm 99% sure that Samus's frame data is actually pretty decent. I could check but I'm on mobile so nty.

All of your other points are true, though.

Phone johns for me
Samus has some of the best start up but hideous endlag on her moves

 

[Gay Ginger]

Reflectors tier list based solely on their reflecting capabilities

Tiers are not necessarily in order

feel free to yell at me

S: (Echo Reflector)
A: (Reversal Slash)
B: (Skull Barrier)(Guardian Orbitars)(Guardian Orbitars)
C: (Upperdash Arm)(Electroshock Arm)
D:

Spoiler: Reasonings

Falco - his Reflector comes out extremely quickly and has a ton of range, which can shut down stuff like Villager's approaches from far away where you can't be punished as easily. Pretty good reflector.
Fox/Gunner - come out quickly, and the only ones that can be indefinitely held, which can be useful at times (ex: Megaman charging fsmash)
R.O.B./Zelda - mediocre startup, long-lasting. Pretty good.
Mario/Mewtwo/Dr. Mario/Swordfighter - quick, but has a strict timing that can be hard to pull off. Also all suffer from a bit of endlag.
Megaman - long ranged which I think is really good, but takes forever to come out.
Guardian Orbitars - fairly quick and covers both sides, but the 45 degree angle isn't helping anyone really. Not as useful because of that.
Ness - too much startup lag and not enough active time. Super strong, though, at least.
Upperdash/Electroshock Arm - large startup, considerable endlag, and also has the weird 45 degree thing I think
Palutena - bad. slow, short, laggy. bad.

Personally I think Palutena's Reflect > NL, as far as reflecting goes.

It's laggy but it stays in front of her and she can move before it disappears/stops reflecting or at least soon after, I believe. @ Lavani do you know for sure?

At the very least, I'm much less afraid of mistiming her reflect than Zelda's because if you use it and they don't fire their projectile (charge shot, for example) you're less likely to get hit by it right after.

NL is a better move overall though.

 

[Kofu]

Reflectors tier list based solely on their reflecting capabilities

Tiers are not necessarily in order

feel free to yell at me

S: (Echo Reflector)
A: (Reversal Slash)
B: (Skull Barrier)(Guardian Orbitars)(Guardian Orbitars)
C: (Upperdash Arm)(Electroshock Arm)
D:

Spoiler: Reasonings

Falco - his Reflector comes out extremely quickly and has a ton of range, which can shut down stuff like Villager's approaches from far away where you can't be punished as easily. Pretty good reflector.
Fox/Gunner - come out quickly, and the only ones that can be indefinitely held, which can be useful at times (ex: Megaman charging fsmash)
R.O.B./Zelda - mediocre startup, long-lasting. Pretty good.
Mario/Mewtwo/Dr. Mario/Swordfighter - quick, but has a strict timing that can be hard to pull off. Also all suffer from a bit of endlag.
Megaman - long ranged which I think is really good, but takes forever to come out.
Guardian Orbitars - fairly quick and covers both sides, but the 45 degree angle isn't helping anyone really. Not as useful because of that.
Ness - too much startup lag and not enough active time. Super strong, though, at least.
Upperdash/Electroshock Arm - large startup, considerable endlag, and also has the weird 45 degree thing I think
Palutena - bad. slow, short, laggy. bad.

Where the heck is Pocket

Also Reflect Barrier isn't short lol

ROB should probably be lower, Arm Rotor only reflect for a short time (though the fact that it's a passive attack otherwise is nice).

 

[Alacion]

But Sakurai said Samus is the most powerful fighter.

 

[Ffamran]

If only Aero did Samus's frame data by now... Just her hit frames, no end lag, IASA, or landing lag.

Move Hit Frames|
Jab|3-4, 17-20
Dash Attack|10-13
Ftilt|8-10
Utilt|15-18
Dtilt|6-8
Side Smash|10-11
Up Smash|11-12, 15-16, 19-20, 23-24, 27-28
Down Smash|9-10 or 17-18
Nair|8-9 or 16-17 or 18-22
Fair|6-7, 11-12, 13-14, 15-16, 30-31
Bair|9-10 or 11-14
Uair|5-6, 8-9, 10-11, 14-15, 20-21
Dair|17-18 or 18-21 or 22-23
Grab|16-25
Dash Grab|16-26
Pivot Grab|17-28

I think that I am going through low tier main Syndrome as I believe that Swordfighter is low not bottom tier
his neutral is really rewarding and even good with the right build. His mobility is lacking but smaller miis can make up for it sometimes

I'm in cynical, pessimistic, and broken down mode, so I think Falco's the worst character in the game now. So... yeah. If you go 40-60, 50-50 for the cast while getting destroyed by Rosalina, Palutena, and probably Jigglypuff, there's a point where you should just pick another character who at least can be a counterpick like Zelda versus er... Sheik and Rosalina? Falco doesn't have an advantage over Ganondorf and Little Mac probably just goes even with him - no, Falco's edgeguarding gets beat by Little Mac's.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

It's laggy but it stays in front of her and she can move before it disappears/stops reflecting or at least soon after, I believe.

Yeah, she can move a little before it disappears.

 

[evmaxy54]

I understand about zeldas placement but.
Samus worse than Swordfighter?!
Well I could understand if you believe that he is not low tier but you do, AND he's better than Samus
What low opinions do you have of her?

It's not everyday that I agree with Macchiato on really anything, but really Swordfighter >>>>>>>>> Samus. At least Swordfighter has cool **** (HOO HAH, Jab ****, p sweet aerials).

 

[Macchiato]

If only Aero did Samus's frame data by now... Just her hit frames, no end lag, IASA, or landing lag.

​

I'm in cynical, pessimistic, and broken down mode, so I think Falco's the worst character in the game now. So... yeah. If you go 40-60, 50-50 for the cast while getting destroyed by Rosalina, Palutena, and probably Jigglypuff, there's a point where you should just pick another character who at least can be a counterpick like Zelda versus er... Sheik and Rosalina? Falco doesn't have an advantage over Ganondorf and Little Mac probably just goes even with him - no, Falco's edgeguarding gets beat by Little Mac's.

Don't worry about Rosalina she 100-0s everyone.

 

[Ffamran]

Don't worry about Rosalina she 100-0s everyone.

Sad part: I think that Rosalina can do this to Falco with customs, especially considering their metagame growths. Rosalina will be ahead of him like how other spotlight characters will be. That stagnating metagame will drag characters down more and more and with how large the cast is, people might not care for the other 25 characters who end up at the lower end of the spectrum because nobody good enough plays as them.

 

[evmaxy54]

Sad part: I think that Rosalina can do this to Falco with customs, especially considering their metagame growths. Rosalina will be ahead of him like how other spotlight characters will be. That stagnating metagame will drag characters down more and more and with how large the cast is, people might not care for the other 25 characters who end up at the lower end of the spectrum because nobody good enough plays as them.

But it's most likely that no one would give a **** about customs after EVO this year

 

[Antonykun]

If only Aero did Samus's frame data by now... Just her hit frames, no end lag, IASA, or landing lag.

​

I'm in cynical, pessimistic, and broken down mode, so I think Falco's the worst character in the game now. So... yeah. If you go 40-60, 50-50 for the cast while getting destroyed by Rosalina, Palutena, and probably Jigglypuff, there's a point where you should just pick another character who at least can be a counterpick like Zelda versus er... Sheik and Rosalina? Falco doesn't have an advantage over Ganondorf and Little Mac probably just goes even with him - no, Falco's edgeguarding gets beat by Little Mac's.

That's the second you shoved Falco Sucks into a conversation about a sword user

It's not everyday that I agree with Macchiato on really anything, but really Swordfighter >>>>>>>>> Samus. At least Swordfighter has cool **** (HOO HAH, Jab ****, p sweet aerials).

His tilts are overall better (I moght be obsessed with the neutral tho)

 

[Macchiato]

But it's most likely that no one would give a **** about customs after EVO this year

R.I.P. Palutena

 

[Ffamran]

That's the second you shoved Falco Sucks into a conversation about a sword user

Disjoints murder Falco.

R.I.P. Palutena

She's a goddess, she'll be fine.

 

[Macchiato]

Disjoints murder Falco.


She's a goddess, she'll be fine.

tbh the only MUs I think falco win are

 

[Alacion]

There are more Falcos than Rosalinas. She isn't even a top tier character.

 

[Soul.]

This is the best I could do regarding a tier list:

Spoiler

pls forgive me

 

[Shrokatii]

i wont make a tier list because imo its useless

most of the cast is pretty balaced imo except the glaring high tiers, and we still are scratching the surface

i understand the game isnt all that deep but you never know

this is a bit cliche but who cares lol

 

[Ffamran]

tbh the only MUs I think falco win are

Apparently, DK wrecks Falco since lasers don't do anything besides **** off DK while DK outranges Falco, juggles him like no tomorrow, and we don't even need to talk about customs. Ganondorf is probably even since Ganondorf out-ranges, out-powers, and probably out-games Falco's edgeguarding since Falco gets hit once and it's game over, and lasers don't do much to Ganondorf since he can just tank them whereas against Link, he'll need to do something since arrows can actually kill. Triple D outlives Falco, out-ranges Falco with stupid disjoints which means Falco gets walled out since he's too damn slow to even get in while Triple D can just sit there and wave his hammer around while Falco gets hit like an idiot. Charizard out-speeds Falco, super armor will just wreck whatever Falco tries to do, Charizard has a good edgeguarding game. He'll juggle them, he'll hurt them, but he won't be able to kill as quickly like them while getting outlived, outranged, and even out-sped by them, DK and Charizard in particular.

So, case in point: cynical, pessimistic, and broken mode.

There are more Falcos than Rosalinas. She isn't even a top tier character.

Yeah, but Rosalina's got an incredible player, Dabuz, which Falco doesn't. It's already noticeable with the Captain Falcon players. Tons of them, but only a couple, particularly Fatality, that are actually good. I would also beg to differ with more Rosalina players than Falco. It's just most of them are on For Glory.

 

[Lavani]

Diddy over Sheik still, omoshiro.

I find the MK placement interesting along with the ROB placement. Bowser and Robin I find interesting as well. Other than that, I think I see your reasoning for all of these.



Megaman can walk/run/item toss/grab/shield with his reflector and it has 0 endlag. S tier or riot.

I learned a new word today!

Diddy's frame data wasn't touched and there's a ton that wasn't being utilized with the character due to the existence of dthrow/uthrow>uair being so powerful. I'm quite confident that dtilt, peanuts, bananas, fair spacing, crazy-hitbox-frame-3 uair, unnerfed bair strings, Monkey Flip still being a stupid command grab/kick mixup on top of a juggle escape on top of B-reverse shenanigans after the fact, and the new-and-improved-combo-capability uthrow will keep him at the top. Not like Sheik wasn't hit too, ledge trump bair kills waaaay later than it used to.

MKs say that Sonic is pretty much the only character in my S tier that destroys them, which says to me he's automatically a good character. That said he's actually the lowest I've put him on a list in quite awhile, for no real reason beyond "I'm feeling better about the characters I put above him today". When he gets in, he gets in hard. When he's being juggled or recovering, he has plenty of options to escape the situations and even mix up how he does so. His only real problem is "How does he get in?" and he has safe moves to throw out and a dash attack and dash grab to get in on a mistake from midrange, so he doesn't really need to get in (unless it's a MU that forces him to approach)

ROB I can't really say much about beyond he seems like a good character and he gets results so I feel he's good. Robin...is actually higher than I usually place him for no good reason and probably deserves to be lower. Bowser and Charizard I flipped around right before posting to see what sort of reaction it would get, but I don't feel very strongly about either character; what I do feel is that Charizard has some amount of unexplored/underrated potential even if it is mainly in gimmicks and fast/punishing OoS options, and that while Bowser hits hard he has nothing safe or quick and is easily juggled, and has all his issues from past games on top of Whirling Fortress being the worst it's been across all three games (though it's a substantially better recovery).

 

[Gay Ginger]

Don't take this too seriously, I made this just for fun lol

CHARACTERS ARE NOT ORDERED WITHIN TIERS

 

[r_greening1]

Okay. You gave me an idea on what to draw. :3
Zelda offering people to take the elevator/lift.

You mean something like this?

 

[Macchiato]

Don't take this too seriously, I made this just for fun lol

CHARACTERS ARE NOT ORDERED WITHIN TIERS

I never take any tier list with Zelda last seriously

 

[FullMoon]

You guys are posting tier lists?

I soooorta tried to order this but not quite.

Also I just lost an invitational to a Diddy >_>

I need to learn that MU.

 

[Ffamran]

I still don't know why Pit and Dark Pit don't have their portraits fused together... There's like so little different between them and it's so stupid when someone places one like tiers away from the other.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I never take any tier list with Zelda last seriously

As soon as I saw you reply to this thread I knew it was going to be about Zelda being last LOL

 

[r_greening1]

You guys are posting tier lists?

I soooorta tried to order this but not quite.

Also I just lost an invitational to a Diddy >_>

I need to learn that MU.

OH THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!! @ Antonykun ! LOOK AT SWORDSPIDER!!! And mah Zelda :^( Also, why is Ness higher than Villiger?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Tbh I think everyone puts MK so high because they are scared of @warionumbah2
Kappa

This is the best I could do regarding a tier list:

Spoiler

pls forgive me

Kirby is pretty high
Swood

Even though these tier lists are off, it's still nice seeing Kirby placed high

 

[Macchiato]

As soon as I saw you reply to this thread I knew it was going to be about Zelda being last LOL

Everytime I see a tier list, I check if Zelda is bottom tier. If she is, then I immediately invalidate that list and ignore the rest.

 

[Jestar]

You mean something like this?
View attachment 53204

I had a feeling someone would post that.

 

[FullMoon]

Disclaimer about my list is that I stopped caring halfway through B lol.

 

[r_greening1]

I had a feeling someone would post that.

You know when I read your comment, I imagined you typing it with a small chuckle or something. Then I saw the avatar. #Sass2Stronk

 

[kenniky]

Palutena can use her Reflect Barrier to gimp people like Ike and the fact it halts momentum can throw people off. Not a good reflector, but a decent move in my opinion. Also, the Pits' Arms don't actually reflect; they deflect projectiles sort of like how powershielding lasers can make them bounce off in another angle away from the user and shielder. If anything, I'd swap Pally with the Pits' Arms as they don't actually reflect.

based solely on their reflecting capabilities

Also it appears that once again I have completely forgotten how a move works

w/e

 

[Soul.]

Tbh I think everyone puts MK so high because they are scared of @warionumbah2
Kappa

Kirby is pretty high
Swood

Even though these tier lists are off, it's still nice seeing Kirby placed high

I'd place Kirby a bit higher if my tier list were customs on, but he would still be in the same tier.
loltierlists

 

[kenniky]

ABSORBING TIER LIST
S:
A:

Spoiler: reasoning

Mii Gunner's looks cooler

 

[Ffamran]

ABSORBING TIER LIST
S:
A:

Spoiler: reasoning

Mii Gunner's looks cooler

Uh... What about Wario, Triple D, and Kirby? They absorb stuff too. Also, Lucas should be dead last since he isn't in the game yet.

 

[Brinzy]

Ever since I got a taste of Melee and PM, I haven't wanted to play Smash 4 at all. :/

I don't know why, but I just cannot stand playing it. I thought it'd never happen to me. It's hard to describe... but I just know I don't have fun playing Smash 4 anymore.

 

[Jestar]

You know when I read your comment, I imagined you typing it with a small chuckle or something. Then I saw the avatar. #Sass2Stronk

Goal achieved.

@Matsushi I'm sharing this victory with you.