Guide Zelda Social: But also the FE Heroes Internet Cafe

[A2ZOMG]

I didn't really like that Zelda player personally. Just a lot of poorly thought out choices and forgetting that certain options exist. Like...he never Jabbed or used Neutral B for instance wtf.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Yeah the player did roll and use din's fire a bit much, but they did okay. It's mentioned that they were trying Zelda out again after playing HW and then 'clicking' with her so I assume she wasn't their main before.

Can't say I blame them for lack of jab. Almost never used it in Brawl, though it does seem a lot better in Smash 4. Going to have to get used to pulling it out more often. NL's long animation is good for spot-dodgers tho.

EDIT: btw @NinjaLink what's your impression of S4 Zelda so far?

 

[Tristan_win]

Here's some Japanese Zelda gameplay I've found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UegLrMPG5Kw Zelda vs CF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrhAQaQgok4 Zelda vs DK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzFRLQrpJbU Zelda vs Sonic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leKc978llh8 Zelda vs Dedede

スマブラ3DS ゼルダ = Super smash bro 3DS Zelda

 

[Toadallstar2]

New online match I found

Zelda vs Peach
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yCzHj8snik

YES at that dair, good usage of projectiles as well.

 

[Aibou]

Oh hey someone uploaded those Nico videos to Youtube? Sweet! Time to sub.

I can't help but feel bad for Peach in this game. That turnip pull speed plus all the end lag on her Fair now means that gurl's gonna have a rough time. That's good for us though. I never liked the Peach matchup as Zelda.

 

[A2ZOMG]

More important than that imo is the nerf to Peach's Jab, which was legitimately a crazy move in Brawl.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLoFTjosCDs vs Bowser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZVeNvx-AI4 vs Greninja
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i70C9o9bf_I vs Ness

Phantom should be viable for Ness, what with it being a physical projectile so PSI magnet won't regen.

 

[evmaxy54]

That LK at the end of the Ness match... Beaut

 

[Rizen]

Pretty soon people will figure out to shield and grab or OoS Zelda's Farow's.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Pretty soon people will figure out to shield and grab or OoS Zelda's Farow's.

Pretty soon, Zelda players will realize just how powerful it is that you can teleport in any direction with a move that kills.

If you're getting Up-B shield punished, you are USING IT WRONG AND DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW COVERING OPTIONS WORKS.

 

[Rizen]

Pretty soon, Zelda players will realize just how powerful it is that you can teleport in any direction with a move that kills.

If you're getting Up-B shield punished, you are USING IT WRONG AND DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW COVERING OPTIONS WORKS.

^If you watch the videos a lot of people are getting KOs with Farow's when it can be shielded. I'm just saying that won't last long.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^If you watch the videos a lot of people are getting KOs with Farow's when it can be shielded. I'm just saying that won't last long.

If you watch several Zelda matches MUCH more carefully, the Zelda also has often conditioned the other player to not know whether she will teleport in place or somewhere else. It's a completely legitimate mixup, because your opponent almost can never cover you either teleporting in place or somewhere else simultaneously. Let's also not forget that it's one of her strongest land trap tools, which is EXTREMELY viable.

You only need to throw out Up-B offensively very rarely so your opponent remembers to respect it. Zelda is a durable character who can take a decent amount of punishment due to her ability to get back to neutral easily, so getting your Up-B shielded once or twice a match isn't too bad if it means keeping your opponent confused about how you will use it. Up-B most importantly lets you have free mobility and land trap punish options at all ranges. Anybody who denies that this is an amazing move is a fool.

 

[Rizen]

^Which vids are you talking about? If she teleports in place it's a reset. If she starts to teleport people should learn to shield. Zelda won't be able to get away with Farow's like in this video is what I'm saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leKc978llh8

All I'm saying is people aren't used to Farow's being a good move and Zeldas are getting away with more now than they will be able to in the future when people learn it's not Brawl's bad version. I'm not saying it's a bad move; it is a very good move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^Which vids are you talking about? If she teleports in place it's a reset. If she starts to teleport people should learn to shield. Zelda won't be able to get away with kills like in this video is what I'm saying:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leKc978llh8

Your opponent has to shield PREEMPTIVELY against Zelda Up-B. That is not a trivial commitment. This makes Zelda very difficult to pin down. Keep in mind that Zelda has MANY options to mix up her mobility both when factoring the direction she can travel, and the way her momentum is altered with her midair jump while Up-Bing.

Keep in mind also that Zelda's footsies are in fact good. She doesn't just sit back and watch you run at her. She has strong moves in midrange like Jab, D-tilt, Dashgrab, and F-smash, with an occasional Down-B and Side-B to keep you honest. And when she gets her hits in, she has several options to trap you at the edge or in the air for reliable KOs.

That Zelda player from Japan in general has several GOOD examples of how Up-B forces people to make commitments that Zelda either can use as an opportunity to get out of jail free, or the fact that Zelda's Up-B mobility options let her punish other preemtive commitments on a read. You argue these people should shield. That would be true if that was actually always their best option.

Let me remind you that Zelda is durable, and she hits hard. She will outlast a lot of characters if she's allowed to play traditional footises simply because her reward for getting in is really high, and virtually nobody is able to edgeguard her or edgetrap her with any real consistency. She HAS to be pressured in some way to be KOed, and that's why Up-B is so good. It means your opponent has to play conservatively when trying to trap her, which makes it really easy for Zelda to get back to neutral. And if they don't play conservatively, enjoy your free kills.

 

[Rizen]

Your opponent has to shield PREEMPTIVELY against Zelda Up-B. That is not a trivial commitment. This makes Zelda very difficult to pin down. Keep in mind that Zelda has MANY options to mix up her mobility both when factoring the direction she can travel, and the way her momentum is altered with her midair jump while Up-Bing.

Keep in mind also that Zelda's footsies are in fact good. She doesn't just sit back and watch you run at her. She has strong moves in midrange like Jab, D-tilt, Dashgrab, and F-smash, with an occasional Down-B and Side-B to keep you honest. And when she gets her hits in, she has several options to trap you at the edge or in the air for reliable KOs.

That Zelda player from Japan in general has several GOOD examples of how Up-B forces people to make commitments that Zelda either can use as an opportunity to get out of jail free, or the fact that Zelda's Up-B mobility options let her punish other preemtive commitments on a read. You argue these people should shield. That would be true if that was actually always their best option.

Let me remind you that Zelda is durable, and she hits hard. She will outlast a lot of characters if she's allowed to play traditional footises simply because her reward for getting in is really high, and virtually nobody is able to edgeguard her or edgetrap her with any real consistency. She HAS to be pressured in some way to be KOed, and that's why Up-B is so good. It means your opponent has to play conservatively when trying to trap her, which makes it really easy for Zelda to get back to neutral. And if they don't play conservatively, enjoy your free kills.

I don't know why you're being combative but most of this has nothing to do with my comment and shielding would have been a good thing for that DDD to do at several points. And I do think people will learn to react to Farow's better.

 

[Rickster]

Some matches I found on youtube (props to them for uploading, so little zelda on youtube).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gBAjtyGcU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwSLiC0VAO8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpCEnpYl3I8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GX24dBFup0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZhfbXsdjKE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orbfywBQrsg
This one was kinda interesting at 2:15 did Phantom gimp Kirby's recovery? It looked he should've grabbed that ledge...

It looks like the charged Phantom has a push effect before the actual hitbox comes out. That small push was just enough to make Kirby miss the ledge. I wonder if this could be used against Ike too, since his recovery is a "jump and drop", like Kirby's is.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't know why you're being combative but most of this has nothing to do with my comment and shielding would have been a good thing for that DDD to do at several points. And I do think people will learn to react to Farow's better.

The fact you're arguing that means you entirely missed the point of why Up-B is good. You opponents SHOULD NOT BE SHIELD PUNISHING IT if you are using it CORRECTLY.

Up-B is CRAP offensively outside of the occasional do it to keep your opponent honest. Nobody should be disagreeing with that. But that's not even relevant.

Up-B is FANTASTIC as a PUNISH and as a MOBILITY tool. It is one of the best moves in the game for those purposes. And that by itself makes Zelda's game CONSIDERABLY better.

 

[Rizen]

The fact you're arguing that means you entirely missed the point of why Up-B is good. You opponents SHOULD NOT BE SHIELD PUNISHING IT if you are using it CORRECTLY.

Up-B is CRAP offensively outside of the occasional do it to keep your opponent honest. Nobody should be disagreeing with that. But that's not even relevant.

Up-B is FANTASTIC as a PUNISH and as a MOBILITY tool. It is one of the best moves in the game for those purposes. And that by itself makes Zelda's game CONSIDERABLY better.

I don't know what your problem is but I'm done with this. Peace.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't know what your problem is but I'm done with this. Peace.

My problem is people arguing details that are actually irrelevant. You clearly don't understand how covering options work when you cite Up-B being unsafe on block as being a crippling flaw.

THAT'S NOT WHEN YOU SHOULD BE USING IT ANYWAY. You use it in situations where you KNOW they are not in a position to block it, or as a way to reposition safely. Neither of those situations involve your opponent shield punishing it if you are using it that way.

You realize that if Up-B were in fact safe on block, Zelda would instantly be the best character in the game? FREE APPROACH ALL DAY and NOBODY CAN PLAY FOOTSIES VS HER and GET OUT OF EVERYTHING COMPLETELY FREE.

Up-B though isn't broken. It's just GOOD. And Zelda is almost certainly viable in this game.

 

[evmaxy54]

Isra Castro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nairo

 

[meleebrawler]

My problem is people arguing details that are actually irrelevant. You clearly don't understand how covering options work when you cite Up-B being unsafe on block as being a crippling flaw.

THAT'S NOT WHEN YOU SHOULD BE USING IT ANYWAY. You use it in situations where you KNOW they are not in a position to block it, or as a way to reposition safely. Neither of those situations involve your opponent shield punishing it if you are using it that way.

You realize that if Up-B were in fact safe on block, Zelda would instantly be the best character in the game? FREE APPROACH ALL DAY and NOBODY CAN PLAY FOOTSIES VS HER and GET OUT OF EVERYTHING COMPLETELY FREE.

Up-B though isn't broken. It's just GOOD. And Zelda is almost certainly viable in this game.

Try using less capitals next time and maybe people will be less likely to dismiss you.
Not trying to be insulting as I know you mean well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Try using less capitals next time and maybe people will be less likely to dismiss you.
Not trying to be insulting as I know you mean well.

Ima be real. I don't have patience for people who choose to deliberately miss the point. That isn't productive, and it shouldn't be tolerated.

There's enough misinformation for about half the characters in this game which isn't helped by Nintendo being super reluctant to communicate about the competitive aspect of their game. We don't need more problems with people being melodramatic, unhelpful, and INACCURATE even after acquiring the game. That shouldn't be tolerated.

We can all realistically acknowledge Zelda is not top tier and has clear flaws in her gameplan in her limited and risky approach options. That's easy enough to observe. But a blind man could also see that Zelda is clearly a much more complete and viable character than she's ever been.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so does anybody know if Zeldas pivot grab reaches further than her dash grab does or is it about the same?

 

[A2ZOMG]

so does anybody know if Zeldas pivot grab reaches further than her dash grab does or is it about the same?

Looks similar to Brawl, except Zelda's grab startup is a bit faster. She still has above average grab range generally speaking.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

It looks like the charged Phantom has a push effect before the actual hitbox comes out. That small push was just enough to make Kirby miss the ledge. I wonder if this could be used against Ike too, since his recovery is a "jump and drop", like Kirby's is.

Yeah that's what I was thinking too. Though I'm hoping the gimp will also work on recoveries with not a lot of horizontal or vertical control (ie Marth's up b).

-----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GinRnXrBGaM vs Yoshi
Nice dairs in this match.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWOwD6oLZ58 vs Villager
I wonder how worth it is to destroy Villager's tree... I know it makes approaching difficult but we have FW's to bypass it. Also it sure is durable, took like 3 Din's to kill it.

 

[Toadallstar2]

Pardon my ignorance but what does his tree actually do than just hit you hard in the air if it sprouts under you?

Very good videos, nice use of all special moves.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Villager gains an axe weapon with the tree out and he can camp better with it covering him. Also if Villager chops the tree down, it turns into a big falling hitbox and does significant damage.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Yeah, the tree prevents projectiles from moving through it, so it can act as a wall as well as an attack (in 4 parts - the sprouting, the axe, the falling, and the potential to get a throwable "chip" item)

 

[Aibou]

so does anybody know if Zeldas pivot grab reaches further than her dash grab does or is it about the same?

http://youtu.be/2M-W42EzCcY?t=2m15s

Zelda pivot grabs Wario about 2 seconds after the timestamp. Only time I recall seeing her pivot grab. Still looks pretty huge.

 

[Chauzu]

Up-B is FANTASTIC as a PUNISH and as a MOBILITY tool. It is one of the best moves in the game for those purposes. And that by itself makes Zelda's game CONSIDERABLY better.

You have said a lot but this one hit the nail at least. I 100% agree with this.

 

[Loachy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLoFTjosCDs vs Bowser
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZVeNvx-AI4 vs Greninja
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i70C9o9bf_I vs Ness

Phantom should be viable for Ness, what with it being a physical projectile so PSI magnet won't regen.

Now I want to see a Ness reflect Zelda's Phantom with f-smash

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Now I want to see a Ness reflect Zelda's Phantom with f-smash

Darn forgot the bat was a reflector too... oh well, phantom has such limited range, I'm not even sure f-smash would be all that reliable either (unless you were using it right in their face which you really shouldn't be).

 

[meleebrawler]

Now I want to see a Ness reflect Zelda's Phantom with f-smash

Nice to see that Phantom doesn't charge as slow as I thought it did.

 

[Chauzu]

I faced a great Link in a recent tourney so I counterpicked Zelda (that I hadn't been practising with for a bit, still trying out as many chars as possible). I'm happy with the results though, I've faced Scizor quite a few times and it's the first time I've not lost big.

To Scizor's defense I think he got caught off guard with Faroe's Wind and that helped but I wouldn't spam it like that if I had practised more either lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Quick analysis: You would have won VERY EASILY if you replaced D-smash with Jab/D-tilt. Link doesn't have many tools besides Jab to fight Zelda in footsies range, but both her Jab and D-tilt are stronger than Link's Jab. This is easily a favorable matchup for you when you nullify a lot of Link's control game and can reliably force fights in close range where you outpressure Link. Work a bit on your execution with Zelda's traps from there so that your punishes become more consistent.

ScizorLinked definitely didn't know the matchup given his commitment to projectile zoning which does not work in the traditional sense against Zelda. However as I stated, it's easy for Zelda to get up close in this matchup, where she has superior pressure and reward.

 

[Chauzu]

Quick analysis: You would have won VERY EASILY if you replaced D-smash with Jab/D-tilt. Link doesn't have many tools besides Jab to fight Zelda in footsies range, but both her Jab and D-tilt are stronger than Link's Jab. This is easily a favorable matchup for you when you nullify a lot of Link's control game and can reliably force fights in close range where you outpressure Link. Work a bit on your execution with Zelda's traps from there so that your punishes become more consistent.

Yeah I need to work on using her tilts, espescially d-tilt. It will be one of the things I will focus on when I start practising for real with her.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As I've stated in the moveset analysis thread, D-smash is Zelda's worst move. And I'm dead serious that you shouldn't be using it most of the time.

Probably the quickest thing most people can do when learning this character is learning to not use the move in favor of safer or more reliable options. Then the really hard part of Zelda is getting down the timing for her trap setups and knowing from what aerial positions you can use Up-B to consistently punish airdodges or other commitments.

 

[Nairo]

Isra Castro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nairo

Watched a bit of the videos and all bias aside (HA)...no

 

[Rizen]

I faced a great Link in a recent tourney so I counterpicked Zelda (that I hadn't been practising with for a bit, still trying out as many chars as possible). I'm happy with the results though, I've faced Scizor quite a few times and it's the first time I've not lost big.

To Scizor's defense I think he got caught off guard with Faroe's Wind and that helped but I wouldn't spam it like that if I had practised more either lol.

Game 3's a good example of players learning to adapt to Farow's, like I was talking about.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Game 3's a good example of players learning to adapt to Farow's, like I was talking about.

All those games also demonstrated massive inexperience on the Zelda player's part. Generally suboptimal normal usage and reckless decision making that clearly didn't have a lot of thought behind it. So saying the Link player adapted is loaded when the Zelda play was by all means not high level, and lacked the variation and finesse that comes with experience.

I mean for crying out loud, Zelda was using Up-B OFFENSIVELY. Which as I've stated multiple times is REALLY BAD and not how you are supposed to use it.