Zelda: Official Character Discussion

[Ulevo]

Discussion for Zelda. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:

 

[Revven]

I think Usmash could have a higher base knockback so it doesn't combo into itself at lower percents (it goes on for awhile).

 

[Ulevo]

I think Usmash could have a higher base knockback so it doesn't combo into itself at lower percents (it goes on for awhile).

I will look at this specifically later and get back to you on my decision. Does it currently pose a problem for most characters, or just fast fallers?

 

[Revven]

I will look at this specifically later and get back to you on my decision. Does it currently pose a problem for most characters, or just fast fallers?

I haven't tested it extensively myself but, it's pretty bad for bigger characters like DK, DDD, Bowser, Ike, Ganondorf, and Snake. I would not be surprised if it also posed a problem for Captain Falcon, Fox, and Falco. I'd have to look at it today (which I think I will), it's pretty ridiculous too since you can't even DI the Usmash while it is hitting you (where her other moves and other moves like that you CAN, like Pika's Dsmash for example).


I will look at it today and give you some percents at how long you can do it for each character/type.

 

[Revven]

Excuse my double post, but, this is necessary. I just tested her Usmash on a couple of characters, let me give you the rundown on each:

Mario - 45% - 3 Usmashes are possible - a Uair is possible right after depending on DI which would make it a 60% combo.
DK - 45% - 3 Usmashes are possible - a Uair is also possible bringing DK up to 60% (again DI dependent)
DDD - 45% - 3 Usmashes guaranteed - a Uair is almost guaranteed right after giving him 60% (might be DI dependent as well)
Snake - 45% - 3 Usmashes are possible - a Uair is possible right after for 60% easy (DI dependent)
Jigglypuff - 30% - 2 Usmashes are guaranteed - Uair is possible right after for 45% (DI dependent)
Wario - 45% - 3 Usmashes are possible - a Uair is almost guaranteed right after for 60% (DI dependent)
Bowser - 45% - 4-5 Usmashes are possible (had he not had Thick Skin, this would be HORRIBLE for Bowser) - a Uair is guaranteed right after depending on if you do it after the 4th or 5th time, 5th time might not be possible to do a Uair (unsure of)
Fox - 45% - 3 Usmashes almost guaranteed - Uair is also again possible after the 3rd Usmash (DI dependent).
Falco - 45% - 3 Usmashes guaranteed (weight difference from Fox makes the third Usmash possible) - Uair right after, DI dependent.

And there were a few other characters I tested that yielded roughly the same results, three Usmashes, and she doesn't even HAVE to MOVE for some of them. But, this testing WAS done in Training mode on a standing CPU just to see how many Usmashes are possible, DI really wasn't what I wanted to look at. You can try and get some testing going with DI accounted but, I lack a person here to do that part atm. But as you can see, three Usmashes seems to be the most she can do on every character, which is an easy 45%, it's as dumb as Fox's Utilt (which is actually DI'able and able to be escaped, while Zelda's isn't). And if it is DI dependent for the third Usmash, it's still an easy 30%, which I don't think should happen anyway. Nobody else's smash attacks combo into themselves, why should hers? :S

In any case, there are my results. Her Usmash does 15% each time it hits, a few times the CPU DI'd a few of the hits, which brought them to 43% but nothing major changed in all the times I tested it. Overall, it's a pretty dumb move.

Also, I find it extremely hard to actually try and sweetspot Zelda's Dair onstage, I think it should be tweaked slightly but not enough to make it EASY like Ganon or Ness, just to make it actually intentional to do.

 

[Ulevo]

You can only sweet spot her Dair on an aerial opponent Falco400. At any rate, I'll do my own tests later with DI.

 

[The Cape]

What about giving her a higher base knockback on U smash and then fix the sweetspot on her dair so its a bit easier to land.

On top of this I would like to see her D throw yeild less knockback which allows her to actually have some slight throw combos.

This would fix the U smash stupidity, and give her some slight buffs to compensate.

Also, remove freefall from aerial Din's fire which could assist with her crappy recovery?

 

[Ulevo]

What about giving her a higher base knockback on U smash and then fix the sweetspot on her dair so its a bit easier to land.

On top of this I would like to see her D throw yeild less knockback which allows her to actually have some slight throw combos.

This would fix the U smash stupidity, and give her some slight buffs to compensate.

Also, remove freefall from aerial Din's fire which could assist with her crappy recovery?

Removing free fall from Dins Fire might be a good idea.

And Cape, she has throw combos. Her Dthrow combos in to Lightning Kick. Uthrow combos in to Uair. Both are kill combos.

 

[The Cape]

D throw combos to lightning kick with DI too?

I guess I need to test more :-p

 

[Ulevo]

D throw combos to lightning kick with DI too?

I guess I need to test more :-p

I believe it does with DI. It also combos in to nair or dash attack, so there are many options.

 

[The Cape]

Ok.

Din's fire no freefall, U smash base knockback buff, and dair sweetspot window a bit bigger and she is a go then?

 

[Ulevo]

Ok.

Din's fire no freefall, U smash base knockback buff, and dair sweetspot window a bit bigger and she is a go then?

Dair sweet spot would have to be a majority vote. What frame window does she have currently?

 

[CT Chia]

for zelda and sheik:

anyway to make it so transformation time is consistent?

 

[The Cape]

Ok, talking to RyokoYaksa.

U smash you can get out of by standing next to Zelda.

She has two swiping hit boxes where the hand comes back and hits again. We need to speed that up so the move hits more constantly. Also, giving less hitlag to it to make it actually work right. Then increase the KB on it so it doesnt juggle as much.

F smash needs the less hitlag treatment as well.

Less hitlag on the jab as well.

Dair sweetspot bigger and works on grounded opponents.

Faster F tilt on startup and winddown

Quicker startup and less landing lag on up and B

 

[kupo15]

Zelda needs more hitlag on F and U smashes.

Too easy to DI out.

If its too easy then that means she needs less hitlag and if you set the electrical hitlag code to float 1, problem solved. Electrical attacks shouldn't be easier to DI out of anyway.

 

[The Cape]

Ah yea, less hitlag. I thought of it right and wrote it wrong.
It was corrected in the post above.

Ryoko knows what he is talking about on this character I suggest we listen.

Ok for U smash he suggests that the sixth hitbox have a large reduction in KB so that the rest of the move links. Then on the very last hitbox of the move we increase the base KB so that the move wont juggle into itself.

I want the move to actually work well and not be a smash DI and punishment nightmare like it was in Melee.

 

[kupo15]

For zeldas usmash, it has 4 hitbox tags:

0D016400 0305A032
0D016400 0310E032 (THIS ONE SPIKES)
0D016400 030C8032
0D05D214 0305A032 (LAST HITBOX)

The second hitbox is the reason why we can't DI out so changing the launch angle to something not a spike will solve that problem. We should give all hitboxes the same launch angle so we can SDI out. Maybe the 1st one? We should also increase the kb on the last hit so it doesn't combo into itself. And for selfish reasons, I want to remove the hitsound effect completely so we only have the move sfx which is more soothing than the crunching sound

Data by namq

Namq also fused two hitboxes together to give us a smooth middle one to test. Maybe try replacing the spike hitbox with this

0D016400 03091033

 

[Almas]

Okay ^^ Here are my list of slight changes:

- I'm not too keen on the freefall she has after casting din's fire. If there's a possible consideration to eliminate this state that would be great. She's terrible enough as it is at coming back to the stage with farore's due to its slow and easily interruptible startup, so I think throwing out a few short burst din's can hinder aggressive edgeguarders whilst still giving her a chance to teleport or take a next course of action.

- She has the slowest non-tether grab in the game and it really hinders her imo =(, considering she also has a very slow jab, when she's pressured at the front of her shield, there is little she can do but roll away. Her frontal OoS options are mediocre, we need to rely on OoS dtilt and dsmash and that normally isn't enough time when an opponent can cooldown down from their attack on her shield and immediately jab and strike her. She has little options and is forced to retaliate from frontal aggression. It would be handy if she had a slightly faster grab or a much faster jab to combat this ^^

That's it really! I think everything else is lovely! If I was pushing the boat out though, I'd love for a faster startup on Farore's. But this would just be a bonus haha!

Still without them, I think she's much better than her vBrawl counterpart!

Thanks for at least considering ^^ Happy discussing in the back room!

- Kataefi

10Quotes lulz.

 

[kupo15]

Why did we lower scaling of the move? If we want to make the move not stupid, shouldn't we just change the spike hitbox into not a spike and slightly increase base?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

By removing the spike property of the uppermost hitbox, the move will whiff on its own in 3 hits or less. You shouldn't be able to SDI or otherwise escape this move period. Same goes for Fsmash and Nayru's. These moves do crap for damage and are punishable when they miss mid-hit like they do. As another slap in the face, Usmash and Fsmash are intended to kill.

The truth about Usmash is that it's really only stupid against the 3-4 fast falling characters, and then that's only if she catches you when there is no platform to stop you from falling into successive Usmashes.

 

[kupo15]

yea, I figured this out actually. Maybe just a slight buff in base then?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

+10 base, +10 growth should put the move back on track in terms of vBrawl power. The 6th hit which causes escapes 90% of the time should have BKB reduced a lot and I think that should fix it.

As for Fsmash... I don't really know how to fix that move just yet. Probably something to do with send angles of each hitbox.

 

[The Cape]

Was it harder or easier to escape the moves in vBrawl?

 

[Almas]

Considering the move is electric, I don't see why it shouldn't be feasible for people with sufficient skill to escape it. It shouldn't be the kind of thing that any player can routinely get out of, but if someone sees it coming I don't see why not.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

You could not escape these moves in the original release of Melee which I always keep handy at Melee tournaments. Any other single hit move you can "see coming" but if you get hit you still pay the price and get sent. It should be no different with these.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Ok, I have fixes ready for Zelda's Fsmash and Usmash to make them actually work on hit. I eventually want to address whiffing on all of Zelda's moves that are prone to it. Some of these are implemented already in test builds*

Usmash hitbox 1+2: 55 KBG down from 100*
0D016400 0305A032
01370003 005A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
0D016400 0310E032
01370003 010E0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Usmash last hit 40 BKB from 30, 182 KBG from 180(*)
0D05D214 0305A032
05B62803 005A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Fsmash hitbox 1+2: 70 KBG down from 100, 330 launch angle
0D016400 0001E02C
013C0000 014A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
0D016400 0002D02C
013C0000 014A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Fsmash hitbox 3+4: 70 KBG down from 100, 200 launch angle
0D016400 0003C02C
013C0000 00C80000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
0D016400 000A002C
013C0000 00C80000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Nair hitbox 2: 50 KBG down from 90
0D025A00 0005A033
02320000 005A0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Nayru's is a bit confusing because of a single code for a hitbox applying to a hitbox appearing on both sides, and it does not have reversible KB (like Peach's Dsmash).

Neat things to think about:

Fair sweetspot 2x size*
0D145F22 03169033
145F2203 01690000
FFFFFFFF 40000000

Fsmash being slightly stronger/benefitting more from charge
Nayru's knocking away at a safer distance/angle, and whiff prevention
Ftilt having lower KGB/angle 100
Jab hitboxes shifted closer to the floor and made larger, less KBG on last hit
Dash attack sweetspot sends outward slightly
Dair sweetspot hitting grounded targets
Din's Fire being a threat