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Zelda Franchise Discussion

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bubbaking

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Which took place shortly after Four Swords. :p

Edit: Or didn't. It depends on the source and Nintendo was never specific.

Edit 2: Actually they were, but their 'confirmations' contradict what is already known. Even Nintendo's "official timeline" has holes all over it... :ohwell:
 

Diddy Kong

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I don't know whats the issue about Ganondorf being killed off in any timeline... He's a demonic entity, he could be revived by any means. Sure, the end of Wind Waker made it a bit difficult for him to appear in THAT time line, but am pretty sure they could work a way around his other deaths.
 

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You know, I think the 'Official Timeline' was only made up because the fans put pressure on Nintendo for having one. They knew they couldn't get away with the series running around like that, so due to fan demand they made an own timeline pretending 'they knew what they where doing from the start'- which I doubt is the case. They just make a Zelda game how they feel like, and throw in a couple of seemingly random references to older games for the fans, not expecting them to go DEEP into research to how it should really happen. :rolleyes: It's been said before that regarding the timeline 'it would be best if those things didn't mather to the fans'. Guess Zelda fans are just being hard-***** and got what they wanted in the end. ;)
 

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I don't know whats the issue about Ganondorf being killed off in any timeline... He's a demonic entity, he could be revived by any means. Sure, the end of Wind Waker made it a bit difficult for him to appear in THAT time line, but am pretty sure they could work a way around his other deaths.
Even then, Demise left his curse a bit open ended. He said that an incarnation of his hatred will follow Link and Zelda for all eternity. It can be assumed that Ganondorf and Vaati are quite possibly two incarnations of Demise's hatred.
 

bubbaking

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I don't know whats the issue about Ganondorf being killed off in any timeline... He's a demonic entity, he could be revived by any means. Sure, the end of Wind Waker made it a bit difficult for him to appear in THAT time line, but am pretty sure they could work a way around his other deaths.
The end of TP makes it a bit difficult for him to appear in THAT timeline as well, since his death is somewhat solidified by his loss of the Triforce of Power.
 

Diddy Kong

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I don't even assume it anymore, to me Demise is just Ganondorf with a different transformation. ;)
 

Big-Cat

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Here's another theory I have. If Ganondorf is indeed dead in all three time lines, he later reincarnates into this:
[COLLAPSE="Pic"]
[/COLLAPSE]
 

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Even then, Demise left his curse a bit open ended. He said that an incarnation of his hatred will follow Link and Zelda for all eternity. It can be assumed that Ganondorf and Vaati are quite possibly two incarnations of Demise's hatred.
So... Demise had two incarnations running around at the same time in Four Swords Adventures?
 

bubbaking

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Here's the official timeline from Hyrule Historia.

It says Four Swords happened before Ocarina of Time... and Four Swords Adventures happened after Twilight Princess.
This is one of the "holes" in the official timeline, since there are also strong inferences that Four Swords Adventures takes place only shortly after Four Swords. Maybe there was enough time for a generation or two, but not enough for an entire timeline like that.

Moral of the story: Nintendo sucks at closing up open-ended speculation. :p
 

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LOL That reminds me of when Ghirahim was first revealed, some people thought he was Vaati.
 

Diddy Kong

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They do look alike though... Ghirahim could be Vaati's long lost ancient gay brother.
 

bubbaking

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You know, I think the 'Official Timeline' was only made up because the fans put pressure on Nintendo for having one. They knew they couldn't get away with the series running around like that, so due to fan demand they made an own timeline pretending 'they knew what they where doing from the start'- which I doubt is the case. They just make a Zelda game how they feel like, and throw in a couple of seemingly random references to older games for the fans, not expecting them to go DEEP into research to how it should really happen. :rolleyes: It's been said before that regarding the timeline 'it would be best if those things didn't mather to the fans'. Guess Zelda fans are just being hard-***** and got what they wanted in the end. ;)
My bro and I were talking about that same exact thing. It's kinda suspicious how the official timeline matches the fan-made one so closely, even though the fan-made one was made long before the official one. :awesome:

Still, Nintendo (and any major media company) should expect their fans to speculate and theorize about the history and backgrounds of their series. It's a given and is the mark of fandom. Now, if I were Nintendo, instead of releasing some "official timeline", I would have simply hinted at the true story and order of events through the release of later games. It feels much more satisfying when one figures something out on his own than when it is told to him. ;)
 

Diddy Kong

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Exactly. It holds more water so to say, as the power of realisation is one we easily remember
believe me- I forget a lot :teeth:
. Sure, it's for the fans to speculate, but the way Zelda fans where going with the timeline was almost like it was supposed to be some sort of holy revelation for them of what should be the correct time line.

Never liked this, and only cared for the few games who actually made sence to be in some sort of time line, like Wind Waker, Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword. All others can fall in wherever, I wouldn't care. Safe for perhaps the DS Toon Link games, they should obviously be placed after Wind Waker.
 

Spire

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What I love most about Nintendo's timeline reveal is that it shut up 95% of timeline discussion. Most people don't care anymore so now they're not wasting their time debating something that doesn't matter. Good job Nintendo :cool:

I accidentally predicted the failure line when contemplating my own spin-off timeline. I had envisioned a world where Ganon won in Ocarina of Time and in Hyrule's ashes, built his own empire. He ruled for centuries, driving the newfound people into an age of advanced architecture and technology. But nevermind that, I actually agree with and enjoy Nintendo's timeline. Makes the most sense of any timeline out there. Maybe some day something will explain the TP—FSA relationship beyond a stupid mirror.

Also: there are many reincarnations throughout the series. To consider Vaati a possible successor to Ghirahim is not farfetched at all. I still wonder why Ghirahim's design reflects the Gilded Sword in a mirror relationship to Fi and the Master Sword. Was this simply a curious design choice, or is there more intention? Maybe a sequel to Skyward Sword could reveal more connections to Terminan lore—and maybe that's just wishful thinking. I'd like it if they continue the series in a less related manner the likes of Skyward Sword to the rest of the games. It held trite semblance to much of the series, really only leading up to Ocarina of Time, despite Minish Cap taking place before. I guess stories like TMC are but side stories to the overarching Zelda canon, that which is told primarily by the core console titles (and the recent 3D ones at that). SS—OoT—TP/WW/ALTTP seem to be the five most important games in the series.
 

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Dunno if they'll ever explain Majora's Mask more deeply. There might be some connections found, but overall I think they'll just keep it for what it is now.

Agree with you that Nintendo did a good job of shutting up the fans with their time line rantings.

And yes, am expecting a sprt of sequel to Skyward Sword as well for the next game. Or at least, I'm hoping for that.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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I still wonder why Ghirahim's design reflects the Gilded Sword in a mirror relationship to Fi and the Master Sword. Was this simply a curious design choice, or is there more intention?
Demise is very clearly the evil counterpart to Hylia and this is shown in multiple ways. The sword Demise uses has a 'reverse Triforce' on it. You could almost see it as a blasphemous symbol regarding religion. Ghirahim really just looks like a male counterpart of Fi for me, especially after he transforms. His dark gray/black color was simply to emphasize darkness instead of light and the light yellow diamonds accentuated his primarily black coloring. I don't really think there is actually a tangible, plausible connection between him and the Glided Sword. The Gilded Sword is mostly yellow with a little gray. Ghirahim is the exact opposite. Ghirahim was just designed to resemble Fi, in his clothing sense (pre-transformation), his actual physical appearance (post-transformation), and his function as a sword and servant to his master. Interestingly enough, Vaati served a similar purpose to Ganon in FSA.
 

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My favorite timeline is the timeline without timeline discussions... or the timeline where we discuss where the Legend of Zelda timeline, the Batman timeline (and the 80 years of comics), the Man with No Name timeline, and the Lost (TV series) timeline collide! :shades:
 

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I believe there was supposed to be a time line, but it shouldn't be expected to connect through ALL games. That's where the fans went wrong. I do believe for example that OoT > MM > TP adds to the debt of the games, if only a little. I felt it most present in the Wind Waker though, as obvious references to the Hero of Time couldn't mean anything else. Just... didn't felt the need where the original Zelda and Link's Awakening should fill in afterwards nah mean? :rolleyes:
 

The Black mage

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Personaly, I really would want that trolling turd, groose....
But really... Uhhh...
Ok, I want groose, seriously.
 

Diddy Kong

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No doubt he'll show his face somewhere. Just not as playable. Liked him though, he was a real bro.
 

The Black mage

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We could just hope for a cutscene in adventure involving him. Only without the midair diving antics. Or maybe that.
 

Diddy Kong

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Doubt they had hair gel in the ancient times of Skyloft. Poor Groose would need it to keep his swag.

Even heard he had a secret crush on Impa.
 

Spire

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Demise is very clearly the evil counterpart to Hylia and this is shown in multiple ways. The sword Demise uses has a 'reverse Triforce' on it. You could almost see it as a blasphemous symbol regarding religion. Ghirahim really just looks like a male counterpart of Fi for me, especially after he transforms. His dark gray/black color was simply to emphasize darkness instead of light and the light yellow diamonds accentuated his primarily black coloring. I don't really think there is actually a tangible, plausible connection between him and the Glided Sword. The Gilded Sword is mostly yellow with a little gray. Ghirahim is the exact opposite. Ghirahim was just designed to resemble Fi, in his clothing sense (pre-transformation), his actual physical appearance (post-transformation), and his function as a sword and servant to his master. Interestingly enough, Vaati served a similar purpose to Ganon in FSA.
 

bubbaking

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Personaly, I really would want that trolling turd, groose....
But really... Uhhh...
Ok, I want groose, seriously.
He could always be an assist trophy. ;)

Well I was actually referring to Ghirahim's second form, which I actually take to be his true form since that is the form that Demise's sword was 'extracted' from. Also, Nintendo probably recycles certain features when they come up with new designs. I still personally think it's mostly baseless speculation that Ghirahim and the Gilded Sword are related, especially when considering the Gilded Sword's origination.
 

Spire

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Yeah but are you blind? I'm not suggesting that Ghirahim has anything to do with Majora's Mask or Termina, but that cannot be coincidence. Just as Fi was based on the Master Sword, so too must Ghirahim's "human form" be based on the Gilded Sword. I mean, LOOK!

Blade = inside of cape
Hilt & cross guard = his body, with the white orb representing his head.

The scarlet red on the hilt is seen on the outside of his cape. If even this was merely creative design with no connection through lore, it must have been intentional. There's no way to know for sure, but the odds lean towards a yes.

Beyond that, Ghirahim's second form is his true form, you are correct. But even that bears little in common with Demise's sword, despite being designed to match.
 

Diddy Kong

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It looks very similar yes. But remember, Termina is actually a sort of 'Mirror World' to Hyrule. That the sword looks like him, doesn't mean that is IS him. If it was found in Hyrule, sure, no doubt it's him. But Termina is different. Anyways, still an awesome reference.

:phone:
 

bubbaking

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If Nintendo meant for every visual resemblance to suggest a direct relation, then THIS.......

would have evolved into THIS.....

and this...

would have evolved into this.

I'm still confused by the fact that these Pokemon aren't even slightly related. :smash:

Btw, I love how this discussion has been going. :laugh:

Yeah but are you blind? I'm not suggesting that Ghirahim has anything to do with Majora's Mask or Termina, but that cannot be coincidence. Just as Fi was based on the Master Sword, so too must Ghirahim's "human form" be based on the Gilded Sword. I mean, LOOK!

Blade = inside of cape
Hilt & cross guard = his body, with the white orb representing his head.

The scarlet red on the hilt is seen on the outside of his cape. If even this was merely creative design with no connection through lore, it must have been intentional. There's no way to know for sure, but the odds lean towards a yes.
Well yes, you're probably right, but as I said, "Nintendo probably recycles certain features when they come up with new designs." Since there has been no confirmation of the Twili creating Majora's Mask, the same could probably be said of Majora's Mask and Midna's helmet.

Beyond that, Ghirahim's second form is his true form, you are correct. But even that bears little in common with Demise's sword, despite being designed to match.
I kinda doubt that.....

:ohwell: That red diamond in the sword's hilt also directly matches the red diamond on Ghirahim's first form's belt.

It looks very similar yes. But remember, Termina is actually a sort of 'Mirror World' to Hyrule. That the sword looks like him, doesn't mean that is IS him. If it was found in Hyrule, sure, no doubt it's him. But Termina is different. Anyways, still an awesome reference.
Yes, this is true. There are very many 'mirrored' things in Termina with actually little connection, technically, like the Gerudo Witch Sisters (evil in one and nice in the other) and Talon (same deal). In all honesty, I bet MM was a chance to recycle/introduce new designs without having to commit to a connection in anything besides appearance.
 

Spire

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Looks like we're getting into Zelda theory! Alright, so:

Majora's Mask // Fused Shadow

The former was created by an ancient tribe in Termina. The latter was created by an ancient tribe in Hyrule. The Hyrulean tribe, referred to as the "Dark Interlopers" used dark magic to try and seize the Triforce. This dark magic took the form of the Fused Shadow, a weapon of great power the likes never before seen. They were banished by the Light Spirits (probable reincarnations of the ancient Water, Thunder, and Fire Dragons) to the Twilight Realm, a prison realm created by the Goddesses. Upon their imprisonment, the Fused Shadow was split into four pieces: one was hidden in the Forest Temple (Deku Tree), one was hidden in the Goron Mines (Death Mountain), one was hidden in the Lakebed Temple (Lake Hylia), and the last was sealed within the Twilight Realm, to ensure there never be a reunion of the four. There, the Dark Interlopers transformed with time into the Twili.

In Termina, we have an unknown tribe that may or may not have been affiliated with the Ikana. The Ikana were a people who bolstered a kingdom in ancient times, now in ruin due to a conflict with the Garo, as well as [possible] civil war. This ancient tribe, like the Dark Interlopers, created a hexing mask called Majora's Mask. Majora was an unknown entity, perhaps a god to them. Not much else is known about this tribe, but considering everything in Hyrule has an equivalent in Termina, the creators of Majora's Mask were most likely Terminan counterparts to the Dark Interlopers, and just as the latter were banished to the Twilight Realm, so too might the mask's makers have been eradicated from Termina. Where they have gone—who knows. Perhaps the Twilight Realm—an alternate parallel world—might parallel Termina just as it does Hyrule. Maybe the Twili are a joint race of the Dark Interlopers and the Mask Makers. Or perhaps a different fate fell upon the Mask Makers. Perhaps they were the Ikana and both civil war and invasion destroyed them.

My two cents on the subject.
 

Diddy Kong

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I think that Faron, Eldin and Lanayru indeed are reincarnations from the Light Spririts with the same names. And yes, it's possible the Ikana people and the Twili are also related, but since pretty much nothing is known about the Ikana it's all speculation. Maybe the developers did this intentionally? Could also be coincidence, but in general I think a lot of Zelda speculation is really going over the border.

Anyways, I still wanna have Impa in Smash 4.
 

Diddy Kong

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With the announcement of Wind Waker being remade in HD, what do you all think is gonna happen to the Zelda roster in Smash? Personally, I'd love for a Toon Zelda / Tetra duo to make it in. Maybe even leave Toon Zelda out completely. Also would like for Wind Waker-styled Ganondorf to make it in, but only if he has the double swords. And of coarse, Impa should be in to. :awesome:
 
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With the announcement of Wind Waker being remade in HD, what do you all think is gonna happen to the Zelda roster in Smash? Personally, I'd love for a Toon Zelda / Tetra duo to make it in. Maybe even leave Toon Zelda out completely. Also would like for Wind Waker-styled Ganondorf to make it in, but only if he has the double swords. And of coarse, Impa should be in to. :awesome:
SS Link, SS Zelda/Impa, Ghirahim, PH/ST Toon Link, and WW HD Ganondorf


Well, I believe an all-new Zelda game is ALSO being announced for the WiiU, so we still can't really know for sure.
Well it won't be out for a few years so I don't think this one will impact the roster.

The likes of Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Ocarina of Time 3D, and Wind Waker HD
 
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