Zelda Combo Thread

[StoicPhantom]

Here's what I've found (not sure if any of these have been posted yet lol):

All on Pit CPU with DI set to "a lot"

D-Throw > B-Air works at all percents from 0-71

D-Throw > U-Air works all percents from 49-130ish. Average-weight characters will die at around 105-110. Heavyweights will die at around 120-130, but the combo works on them for much longer.

D-Air > Up Smash works all percents from 40-69

D-Air > U-Air work all percents from 70-110ish

U-Tilt > U-Air works all percents from 45-69


I'm definitely not the best, so a lot of these percents might be a bit off. Please correct my information if you catch a mistake!

I appreciate the effort you took to do all that, but I don't think the shuffling setting is very similar to actual DI. I tested that setting earlier today and it wasn't acting like an actual opponent's DI.

For instance I tested on Inkling and while most Inklings I face manage to DI away from any Down-throw follow ups, the AI tried to DI up instead.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I don't think I can get D-Throw > U-air working past 70-80. They keep airdodging all the time. Best I got out of it was make the opponent think I was going to do something so they could airdodge I could get a Kick out of the massive endlag.

 

[One Tilt]

Here's what I've found (not sure if any of these have been posted yet lol):

All on Pit CPU with DI set to "a lot"

D-Throw > B-Air works at all percents from 0-71

D-Throw > U-Air works all percents from 49-130ish. Average-weight characters will die at around 105-110. Heavyweights will die at around 120-130, but the combo works on them for much longer.

D-Air > Up Smash works all percents from 40-69

D-Air > U-Air work all percents from 70-110ish

U-Tilt > U-Air works all percents from 45-69


I'm definitely not the best, so a lot of these percents might be a bit off. Please correct my information if you catch a mistake!

Careful with AI testing-- their DI seems to be random, rather than necessarily optimal. Though, the numbers don't sound too far off (other than D-throw up air, which definitely feels reactable at post 90%, at least), and I don't think you can even DI a stage-bouncing spike, so knowing when Dair combos work takes a lot of stress out of trying to react around it. Up tilt -> Uair is news to me, though. Definitely sounds like a fun one to try-- might be able to bait an airdodge at high %s to fish for KOs past 70, if they're conditioned by the middle % combo into trying to mash airdodge out of it. Especially since Nair probably works as a mixup. Nice stuff there.

I've been on a mission to figure out Zelda's neutral game (approaching), how to handle projectiles (i.e. Links, Belmonts), and how to deal with having to drop shield (given that shield drop grab is generally not happening). Finally starting to see some nice results:

For approaching in neutral, retreating is, weirdly, the most important part. Nine times out of ten, it seems like the best answer to an opponent's approach (or lack thereof) is to mix up how you're moving. Dash dancing to space out someone's aerial approach and force a landing (or double jump), dashing into a dash approach to try and read them with a spotdodge buffered jab (or just dashing into a dash grab with a dash attack), dash dancing into Ftilts (especially when chased on a retreat), dashing away as someone approaches, but immediately dashing back when reading the jump to cover their landing with Uair/Usmash or such, or even just dash dancing a "step" or two away and jumping as they start to fall, if they can't cover the upwards diagonal angle safely (letting you FF Nair or fish for a Fair). There's a lot more nuance in the movement mindgames that you need to play, but trying some other characters has gotten me a much better grip on how neutral "works" now. It's all about the dash mixups until someone jumps, basically, and Zelda is much better at waiting out the air time and contesting landings (because SH Fair, Phantom, et cetera are all fantastic tools for sniping landings). tl;dr: Force a jump, dash away (or under), space out their landing to punish, ideally with a combo or by forcing them off-stage. Assuming Phantom doesn't free win neutral for you, that is, but that's a bit matchup dependent.

As for projectiles, while dash grab out of shield drop isn't exactly great, empty hopping out of shield becomes a lot better when advancing-- especially if you don't get greedy and just use the opportunity to take up residence just outside of panic dash attack punish range. I've hit a few Fairs now by landing just outside of Link's range, only to SH Fair that slow dash attack (or a dash grab), and even my misses put me in a decent position (sometimes even just a second empty hop into turnaround grab can easily punish dash attack endlag). It requires you to be close enough that they can't easily dash cancel a tilt out, and it's unreliable unless you've forced them to retreat a bit, but it definitely helps. Also, jump cancelled neutral B can screw with greedy dash-ins up close (especially OoS). High commitment, but decent when reading one of those powerpoint presentation flowchart Links or Belmonts, for sure. Other than that, specials in general are extremely helpful-- Nayru's is great for screwing with slow projectiles (hitting a boomerang's return can really screw with a Link, and covers your approach), up B can punish the windup for a grounded boomreang, axe, cross, or arrow (it feels greedy, but up B is so fast now that projectile windups are almost reactable at times), Phantom screws over bombs and arrows in particular (assuming you never get greedy with trying to charge it), and side B keeps surprising me by being way more useful than I expect. It moves quick enough to hit a boomerang read (or, more easily, a cross read), and it's a decent punish to poorly spaced axes or the like, as well. I definitely need to use more of Din's, as it feels almost mandatory to force approaches when there's no time to charge phantom (a short charged phantom into side B has proven to help a lot-- as has grabbing bombs and forcing approaches with side B or opening up an approach via neutral B on a boomerang). tl;dr: Specials and lots of empty hops make projectile camp much more manageable, and I need to lean on them more.

And then there's OoS, which is still my weakest point, for sure-- old habits die hard. Spot dodging a lot more has certainly helped, and you can even get a few dash grabs out of that, but parrying still feels a bit too incidental by compare (and it's harder for me to anticipate and react to, personally, outside of the hardest reads with perfect spacing). Jumping out of shield can be be buffered on shield stun, which makes it a lot easier to work with, and SH Fair on a sour spot still doesn't feel terrible-- sweet spot is obviously a won trade, mind. Retreating empty hops that fast fall to a dash mixup feel relatively strong, as do the occasional short hop crossups (sometimes even into a fade back Bair). But I'm not finding may chances to convert a jump out of shield into any actual combos, which is ultimately what I'm looking for... spot dodging OoS has felt pretty decent, in any case, and I'm finding myself doing a lot of, say, shielding the first hit of Link's Fsmash and then spot dodging OoS into a jab or grab, but parrying obviously works just as well in most of those cases... that said, I've gotten more grabs by spot dodging after a shielded jab combo's predictably buffered grab than I have from anything else other than catching a landing. Plus, spot dodging out of a dash has been a nice mixup. tl;dr: Spot dodging more and shield hops feel equally important OoS. Jump cancelling Neutral/Up B feel sitationally okay (Up B when forced to jump out of shield near ledge helps here and there), and aggressive OoS options still feel... okay.

As for combos (yeah, the actual topic, I know uwu), I'm mostly trying to figure out if there's any way to use sourspot landing Fairs as a combo confirm. Though, sourspotting Fair intentionally is proving way more difficult than I expected, so I'll need more practice before I can try and figure anything out with that. Utilt is, of course, probably the best bet, but Dtilt almost certainly will work if Utilt does, jab might work out, and maybe even standing grab would work... though, grounded hitstun feels... well, nonexistent, as I see Ike jabbing through my grounded hits in nightmares every night now. As an aside, Uair that immediately fast-falls isn't terrible for juggling, even against swordies, but you've just got to keep in mind that it basically needs to be timed such that you reach the apex of your jump early enough to fast fall as you use Uair, or you're just getting downstabbed. Trying to get that vertical spacing right has been... interesting? If, by interesting, I mean "the cause of just so many SD hops into Dairs, but because I screwed up-- not because it doesn't work".

Anywhos, going to try fighting more Inkling and Chrom next. Spending all that time practicing against camp has me losing my feel for fighting against more aggro fighters, now. ^^;

 

[Kaze Arashi]

Although not much of advice, but maybe gives ideas:

 

[Rickster]

I posted this in the social but I figured the non social goers would find this useful too

I wouldn't like fish for these or anything, but rather I'd use them as a failsafe if you flub a kick or something

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I posted this in the social but I figured the non social goers would find this useful too

I wouldn't like fish for these or anything, but rather I'd use them as a failsafe if you flub a kick or something

I'd find this useful, not even gonna lie.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

You can do D.throw>Nair from 0% to 70ish but I dont think you can get anything after nair

Down-throw > nair > bair has worked more times than I can count.

Would you guys be okay if I posted a Zelda combo video here within the next few days? It has most of what I would be reiterating about Zelda combos here anyway, so I think it would save some time.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Down-throw > nair > bair has worked more times than I can count.

Would you guys be okay if I posted a Zelda combo video here within the next few days? It has most of what I would be reiterating about Zelda combos here anyway, so I think it would save some time.

I'd love to.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'd love to.

The Zelda combos are in the second half of the video (starting at 3:00).

 

[Deleted member 189823]

The Zelda combos are in the second half of the video (starting at 3:00).

This looks like a some sort of pseudo combo slash informational video...and I didn't expect I'd get something massive out of it:

The Phantom + Platform coverage for Ledge Jump is insane. I've always been bad at catching ledge jumps, but it's awesome we have an amazing use of platforms, now...

 

[JesusPenguin]

Although not much of advice, but maybe gives ideas:

 

[DarkStarStorm]

This looks like a some sort of pseudo combo slash informational video...and I didn't expect I'd get something massive out of it:

The Phantom + Platform coverage for Ledge Jump is insane. I've always been bad at catching ledge jumps, but it's awesome we have an amazing use of platforms, now...

From what I have tested, there are only two options that are generally "safe" against the typical Phantom ledgetrap. Ledgejump, which you can punish with lightning kick, nair, dair (as shown in the video). The other is ledgedrop, which I have yet to uncover an optimal punish for. If you want to cover the jump, then you have to act as soon as you see their character change position on the ledge, at which point you're not exactly sure what they inputted.

I haven't tested whether or not d-smash hits the ledge, it would be a good option if it does. The other thing for me to try is an offstage dair as soon as my lightning kick finishes.

 

[StoicPhantom]

The other is ledgedrop, which I have yet to uncover an optimal punish for.

Nayru's Love can be an ok punish. Can really wreck some recoveries, if you manage to spin them around. Can pop them into Phantom or setup a Bair.

I haven't tested whether or not d-smash hits the ledge, it would be a good option if it does.

D-Tilt can. Also can pop them into Phantom and possibly setup a spike at low percents. I don't think I have ever hit Dsmash, though.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Nayru's Love can be an ok punish. Can really wreck some recoveries, if you manage to spin them around. Can pop them into Phantom or setup a Bair.

D-Tilt can. Also can pop them into Phantom and possibly setup a spike at low percents. I don't think I have ever hit Dsmash, though.

Using Nayru's like that is something that hadn't occurred to me. Nayru's, in theory, is fantastic at edgeguarding. As long as you can time the 4 invulnerability frames to tank the victim's recovery, you can edgeguard most characters.

I really need to try this.

 

[signor]

I don't know if anyone else has something similar but I found something worth talking about I think
Its a 0 to death but you can mash out of it, however, the mash out is easily punished by a Fair or Bair which can just end the combo there.

Sweet Dair > Jab 1 > DTilt > Down Throw > Sour Dair > Jab 1 > DTilt > Down Throw > Sweet Dair > Up B

Slight variants based on weight and DI but again, at any point in the combo really you can Down Throw to Bair. Heavy characters require a second Sweet Dair string before moving on to the Sour Dair. Lighter characters can escape the DTilt too so it's best to just Jab to Down Throw. You can also pummel for extra damage if you want or to mix up their dodge game a bit.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Using Nayru's like that is something that hadn't occurred to me. Nayru's, in theory, is fantastic at edgeguarding. As long as you can time the 4 invulnerability frames to tank the victim's recovery, you can edgeguard most characters.

I really need to try this.

I once saved a clip where I completely clipped Charizard''s Flare Blitz with the invincibilty and stagespiked him. It was very unpredictable and sudden.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I once saved a clip where I completely clipped Charizard''s Flare Blitz with the invincibilty and stagespiked him. It was very unpredictable and sudden.

I attempted it last night and edgeguarded a Bayo with it.

 

[SoniCraft]

No one's talked about up throw yet, but that's been my main combo throw. Upthrow -> SH upair specifically seems pretty reliable at many percents, and it sets up for a nice juggling scenario, or for punishing landings. It might be good to throw into your repertoire so you can keep dthrow fresh for the kill percents? Speaking of dthrow, I haven't been able to get the dthrow -> fair/bair combo consistently. What are the specific inputs to making that combo work well?

In other news, I'm labbing out some combos on the spacies, and I found some flashy ones on Wolf at about 0-19%. These are training mode combos tho, so take them with a grain of salt. There's a lot of nuance to how these work, so I'm gonna walk through it in paragraph format first.

All combos done on FD Wily's on Wolf, with Shuffling set to A Lot. Now that I think about it, platforms will probably ruin a lot of these combos, but oh well. I'll lab that out another day.

So every combo starts with Dthrow-> retreating nair -> utilt. How this works is you must nair right after the dthrow and then start moving backwards. If you do it correctly, then wolf should land behind you. I think if you do it too quickly (or if Wolf DIs the right way), Wolf will be launched in front of you and you can't follow up anything. So if Wolf lands behind you, you must do a turnaround utilt. Do not fast fall the nair. Just land normally as close to wolf as you can, then do an utilt so the front facing hitbox hits wolf. The closer you get to 19%, the harder it is to land this utilt, and past 19 I don't think it connects. At 18-19%, it might not be worth going for since it's so difficult.

After the first utilt, from 9-12%, you have a few options. What does the most damage is doing another utilt and then a FH uair. If this lands (and it does register as a true combo at these percentages), you should have done 56.9%. This is a lot more than your standard dthrow -> bair (which does 33.6%, for comparison), and I think it's the most effective combo, but maybe not the most consistent. You can also do a SH uair, but it does 3% less damage. After the first utilt, you can also do a rising nair, and if you land all hits, it should total 41.1%. Not bad, and definitely more consistent. Another option after the first utilt is a FH bair, and if the sweetspot connects, it does 51.9%. However, this one seems most difficult to connect consistently for me, but maybe someone else can do better at it.

Before 9%, FH uair doesn't connect, so just use SH uair instead. So Zelda has a 53.9% combo on Wolf from 0%! That's nuts!

After 12%, the second utilt stops landing reliably, at which point you instead choose between SH uair, rising nair, and FH bair. SH uair stops reading as a true combo from 13-17%, but I feel like it's still a good option to go for, since it covers jump and attacking, and if the opponent airdodges, you may be able to get a punish. It's true again from 18-19%. If you land the SH uair, it totals to 45.2%. Rising nair is a true combo until 19%, and does somewhere from 40.5% to 45.9%, depending on how many you hit and what hitboxes you hit with. Rising bair is only a true combo until 14%, so I wouldn't try it until then. It does 51.9%, as mentioned before.

What's nice about the most optimal combo is that it works even if you land a jab first. So imagine landing a jab in neutral, which knocks them down, and then you read their getup and get a grab. 54 damage right there, which should set them at mid-60s, which is perfect dthrow -> bair percents. I hope this combo is actually viable, because that would be crazy!

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Before 9%, FH uair doesn't connect, so just use SH uair instead. So Zelda has a 53.9% combo on Wolf from 0%! That's nuts!

D-throw > nair > Lightning Kick works on many, many characters and does...51%?

 

[StoicPhantom]

Using Nayru's like that is something that hadn't occurred to me. Nayru's, in theory, is fantastic at edgeguarding. As long as you can time the 4 invulnerability frames to tank the victim's recovery, you can edgeguard most characters.

I really need to try this.

I learned it from some of the other posters here. It's hit or miss and really depends on the recovery or situation, though. Stage spikes seem to be less potent and the tech window seems more lenient. There isn't a lot of power in Nayru's Love, so you won't be bouncing them very much. Where it does seem to work, are recoveries that are very vertical or are short and require jumps to work. So it can be devastating to characters like Chrom or Little Mac or as you have found Bayonetta. Depending on where it spikes and how hard, it might setup Bair/Fair and can lead to early KOs. Is the only real way to edgeguard characters like K. Rool, but those types will live for a long time and is probably only good for racking percent.

 

[Time2mosh]

No one's talked about up throw yet, but that's been my main combo throw. Upthrow -> SH upair specifically seems pretty reliable at many percents, and it sets up for a nice juggling scenario, or for punishing landings. It might be good to throw into your repertoire so you can keep dthrow fresh for the kill percents? Speaking of dthrow, I haven't been able to get the dthrow -> fair/bair combo consistently. What are the specific inputs to making that combo work well?

Pretty much this, at low (like sub 25) %'s up throw > SH uair is a true and easy 30%ish damage lol and you don't stale bair by doing dthrow >bair which comparatively is much less damage.

In practice and online I was legitimately shocked I was able to nab 30% damage just from uthrow>uair.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'm lowkey convinced we can't combo G&W with stuff like Stomp to Heel or D-Throw to Kick after like our first grab. Dude just kept airdodging out of like 90% of those combos. And believe me, I tried.

Works fine on everyone else, though. Stomp to Heel is a godlike punish.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'm lowkey convinced we can't combo G&W with stuff like Stomp to Heel or D-Throw to Kick after like our first grab. Dude just kept airdodging out of like 90% of those combos. And believe me, I tried.

Works fine on everyone else, though. Stomp to Heel is a godlike punish.

Would that apply to Pichu as well?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Would that apply to Pichu as well?

With that logic, yeah...but Id encourage anyone to try it out for themselves, instead. For all I know, my reaction time was ****ed after like 8 hours of play,

 

[DarkStarStorm]

With that logic, yeah...but Id encourage anyone to try it out for themselves, instead. For all I know, my reaction time was ****ed after like 8 hours of play,

For the umpteenth time, were you using low-percent d-throw > nair > lightning kick? No one seems to be acknowledging that it's a thing (and it is). Were you also buffering the full hop?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

For the umpteenth time, were you using low-percent d-throw > nair > lightning kick? No one seems to be acknowledging that it's a thing (and it is). Were you also buffering the full hop?

I rarely do the combo, but I meant Stomp > Heel in this case. Whenever I tried the combo youre talking about, they just tend to be far away to hit.

If its a real thing, then DI upwards might lend us an extra 15ish% + a Kick.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I rarely do the combo, but I meant Stomp > Heel in this case. Whenever I tried the combo youre talking about, they just tend to be far away to hit.

If its a real thing, then DI upwards might lend us an extra 15ish% + a Kick.

Go look at the video I posted. I did it at least twice.

 

[Scripture]

Dthrow pops just about any character up high enough that they land on the lower platform of battlefield. It can be jumped out of, but if they don't jump for what ever reason I like Dthrow onto platform > Dair > Usmash which works at about 35% (assuming they don't jump out after the Dthrow) and takes them to the upper 80%s. The spacing is a little strict though so it might not be that useful.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Dthrow pops just about any character up high enough that they land on the lower platform of battlefield. It can be jumped out of, but if they don't jump for what ever reason I like Dthrow onto platform > Dair > Usmash which works at about 35% (assuming they don't jump out after the Dthrow) and takes them to the upper 80%s. The spacing is a little strict though so it might not be that useful.

Similarly, if a person DIs it upwards and don't react, they might fall into a tech situation on the upper platform at later percents. I think I got it on Pacman on Battlefield at around 80-90 and it looked free as hell.

 

[Twoby]

Got this pretty sick parry - up b kill with a zero 2 death after

https://clips.twitch.tv/AdorableSaltyMeerkatPRChase

 

[Twoby]

I have a few 0% combos

D Throw > utilt > up air. Does 7 hits for 35.5% damage. Tested with DI and still works.
D Throw > dash > Up smash. 12 hits for 27.4% damage.
D Throw > dash > short hop Neutral B. 9 hits 22.8% damage.

I feel like dthrow bair is just better. if you space correctly you get 35 free damage. also works at mid-percents

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

edit: wrong thread ignore

 

[Twoby]

Has anything been found in regards of Phantom Combos or any interesting follow ups?

At high percents fully charge phantom -> neutral b (sends off stage) -> phantom hits (and kills) seems pretty reliable, got it a couple of times yesterday on stream

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Got this pretty sick parry - up b kill with a zero 2 death after

https://clips.twitch.tv/AdorableSaltyMeerkatPRChase

hold my almond milk

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I feel like dthrow bair is just better. if you space correctly you get 35 free damage. also works at mid-percents

I'm having trouble spacing it with inward DI at low percents.

 

[Rickster]

If they DI in and fly straight up, you can just jump and bair with no movement against almost any character. The sweetspot is hilariously generous this time around

The new buffer system also makes it way easier as well

 

[DarkStarStorm]

If they DI in and fly straight up, you can just jump and bair with no movement against almost any character. The sweetspot is hilariously generous this time around

The new buffer system also makes it way easier as well

I agree, it makes things so easy (too easy). I was overcomplicating lining up the sweetspot, trying to jump behind them and bair. It had not occurred to me that I could just jump and kick. Okay, now I have had trouble landing it against one of my friends playing Pit, who is DIing away. It seems as though the combo window is rather slim against his weightclass. Am I missing something?

 

[Rickster]

I agree, it makes things so easy (too easy). I was overcomplicating lining up the sweetspot, trying to jump behind them and bair. It had not occurred to me that I could just jump and kick. Okay, now I have had trouble landing it against one of my friends playing Pit, who is DIing away. It seems as though the combo window is rather slim against his weightclass. Am I missing something?

For outward DI I find that buffering jump while holding towards them (so she jumps to the side) then bairing with the c stick works decently well. But at mid-ish % it doesn't connect as well, unless it's like K Rool or Ridley. So for those situations I dash forward for a split second then fair them. I'm unsure if it's 100% true though since I sometimes still can't hit them before they dodge

Training mode says it's a combo, but the combo counter isn't always accurate in situations like this

Edit: oh, also try instantly double jumping. It gives her the extra momentum to sweetspot, especially if they DI away. This was used in Smash 4 too to get dthrow>kick

 

[Deleted member 189823]

If they DI in and fly straight up, you can just jump and bair with no movement against almost any character. The sweetspot is hilariously generous this time around

The new buffer system also makes it way easier as well

I did not know that. Definitely better than just a N-air. For some reason, there are a couple of times I seem to get it for no reason. But I wouldn't exaggerate and say it's that generous. I still feel we need to space Kick properly to sweetspot it OoS.

Edit: oh, also try instantly double jumping. It gives her the extra momentum to sweetspot, especially if they DI away. This was used in Smash 4 too to get dthrow>kick

I've thought about this, but I thought the extra frames would ruin the combo.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

For outward DI I find that buffering jump while holding towards them (so she jumps to the side) then bairing with the c stick works decently well. But at mid-ish % it doesn't connect as well, unless it's like K Rool or Ridley. So for those situations I dash forward for a split second then fair them. I'm unsure if it's 100% true though since I sometimes still can't hit them before they dodge

Training mode says it's a combo, but the combo counter isn't always accurate in situations like this

Edit: oh, also try instantly double jumping. It gives her the extra momentum to sweetspot, especially if they DI away. This was used in Smash 4 too to get dthrow>kick

Considering how integral this combo is to playing this character, we should collaborate on creating a character chart for this combo. Inkling has had such a chart since about a week following the game's release. It's an easy thing to test and we should probably do the same if we want our character to stay relevant.

It also helps when we have people bandying around with random combos that only worked due to a very SPECIFIC DI. Things like up-throw > up-air at low percent have been bandied around quite a bit in this thread, but I have never seen nor pulled it off on any character. My combo of d-throw/up-tilt > nair > Lightning Kick can never be understood nor proven to be true or not unless we actually break things down and fully understand what DI makes certain combos possible. This is a combo thread, which means we should probably be labbing combos instead of giving a he-said/she-said account of them.