Zelda Combo Thread

Lardboi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
16
#41
Down tilt can true combo into up tilt on a few characters with big bodies like K tool. Up tilt can also combo into itself.

Also found using reverse up tilt can make a few combos easier like Utilt>nair>bair
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#42
I bet something like Phantom>Dair>Bair could break a shield
Possibly. That seems a little difficult for my poor technical skills, so that probably wasn't it. It was also at the
ledge, so I'm not sure that would be feasible. It might be worth a lab, but I'm too inherently lazy to do that.
 

One Tilt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
155
#43
...Now if you space well and opponent does not have a longer range grab or just short enough to grab Zelda's feet anyway, with the additional shield drop frames (now 4 frames more than smash 4), you should be safe from punish. That is all above situations work out and you react fast enough tho.
I've noticed that Dtilt is pretty functional if you can get in close against a shield if you expect a shield grab, as ducking seems to keep Zelda from being grabbed as easily, depending on the character (and, I imagine, the spacing).

Dtilt does combo into Utilt and at low % sometimes, and dash attack at medium-low %s not-so-infrequently, though Ftilt and jabs seem like a no-- was testing against some Ikes that kept jabbing through.

Also, at 0%, I've had stage bounce Dair string into Utilt-- which can probably lead to more damage than the up smash follow-up if it goes Dair -> Utilt -> Utilt -> Nair.

Also x2, at lowish %s (not sure the range) down throw -> Nair -> horizontal Up B is something I'm seeing work online here and there-- it might depend on how they DI the Nair, but it's rare enough to get a low % grab and get to the Nair, for me, so idk how consistent that'll be. There's a beat between the Nair and the horizontal up B, and sometimes it needs a slight upwards angle, but that momentary wait means you can use up B as a reaction, so I don't think you need to commit too heavily? Been trying to find a follow-up to rising Nairs for a while now, but that's all I've found besides "start a phantom or Din's Fire".

Still having a hell of a time with projectile camp, but sticking to the ground and trying to microspace with constant foxtrots and dash dancing has helped a lot against Chrom and co. Now that I know jump canceling shield-drop is faster than a shield grab, I'm going to see how well SH Fairs can punish dancing blade-- that's been the main problem I've yet to solve in the MU, other than "they just jumped and idk my OoS options because shield drop feels so slow, what do", but that's in every MU where I can't just Nair through them. For now, I've done a lot of "just run away to space Ftilts or Fair hops at their landing point", outside of swatting some out of the air with angled Ftilt directly, or punishing the ones who just keep landing on you with up smash (or neutral B, I suppose).
 

One Tilt

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 28, 2014
Messages
155
#44
I've noticed that Dtilt is pretty functional if you can get in close against a shield if you expect a shield grab, as ducking seems to keep Zelda from being grabbed as easily, depending on the character (and, I imagine, the spacing).
Dtilt does combo into Utilt and at low % sometimes, and dash attack at medium-low %s not-so-infrequently, though Ftilt and jabs seem like a no-- was testing against some Ikes that kept jabbing through.

Also, at 0%, I've had stage bounce Dair string into Utilt-- which can probably lead to more damage than the up smash follow-up if it goes Dair -> Utilt -> Utilt -> Nair. Also, at higher %s, I've had it lead to Uair, though I've only had that happen once, so I don't recall the % beyond that Uair killed, so it was probably 120%+?

Also x2, at lowish %s (not sure the range) down throw -> Nair -> horizontal Up B is something I'm seeing work online here and there-- it might depend on how they DI the Nair, but it's rare enough to get a low % grab and get to the Nair, for me, so idk how consistent that'll be. There's a beat between the Nair and the horizontal up B, and sometimes it needs a slight upwards angle, but that momentary wait means you can use up B as a reaction, so I don't think you need to commit too heavily? Been trying to find a follow-up to rising Nairs for a while now, but that's all I've found besides "start a phantom or Din's Fire".

Still having a hell of a time with projectile camp, but sticking to the ground and trying to microspace with constant foxtrots and dash dancing has helped a lot against Chrom and co. Now that I know jump canceling shield-drop is faster than a shield grab, I'm going to see how well SH Fairs can punish dancing blade-- that's been the main problem I've yet to solve in the MU, other than "they just jumped and idk my OoS options because shield drop feels so slow, what do", but that's in every MU where I can't just Nair through them. For now, I've done a lot of "just run away to space Ftilts or Fair hops at their landing point", outside of swatting some out of the air with angled Ftilt directly, or punishing the ones who just keep landing on you with up smash (or neutral B, I suppose).

Edit: Messed up the quote paraphrasing. Whoops.
 
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Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#45
So I did some testing for the dtilt into fair on marth/lucina. The closer hitbox can start comboing into fair at 24/25%, but if you space as far as possible it only combos into fair starting at 45%. With DI it can likely be much harder/easier. Far hit stops comboing by 65% while close hit can still combo at 75%, possibly a little further too.
 

Lardboi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
16
#46
So I did some testing for the dtilt into fair on marth/lucina. The closer hitbox can start comboing into fair at 24/25%, but if you space as far as possible it only combos into fair starting at 45%. With DI it can likely be much harder/easier. Far hit stops comboing by 65% while close hit can still combo at 75%, possibly a little further too.
Have you tried doing Dtilt into grab? I know it works sometimes at really low percents but not when it stops working. Also I bet you could fake a Dtilt by crouching in front of them to get them to shield and then grabbing
 

Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#47
Have you tried doing Dtilt into grab? I know it works sometimes at really low percents but not when it stops working. Also I bet you could fake a Dtilt by crouching in front of them to get them to shield and then grabbing
I don’t think Training mode registers grab so I will need a human testing partner which I do not have :/ Although I imagine grab should work a little above 25% if you hit them close where grab takes just slightly more time than sh fair but the opponent doesn’t fly that far away yet. Even if it does the percent window is probably quite small though...
 

One Tilt

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 28, 2014
Messages
155
#48
Okay, so, lightning kick? That's our replacement for Dtilt, it seems. Even in neutral, it feels like a safer poke than Ftilt, though even sourspot Fair/Bair don't seem to combo, as crossing up sourspot Fair into sweetspot Dair or such are definitely not true-- fun though. The only thing I could find that even remotely seemed like a combo from sourspot Fair was ledge drop rising FF Fair into Up B elevator, as that got me a surprise kill at-ledge. Idk that it's true, but even if it is, there's no way it's anything but situational.

Oh! Nair into Din's Fire almost seemed like it combos at... I want to say medium %? Din's Fire definitely combos with Phantom, in any case-- perhaps useful for sniping buffered double jumps offstage, if nothing else, as on stage it's probably not safe to try and use Din's fire when they're apt to rush you during a phantom charge. Though, covering above the phantom with din's fire does mean potentially sniping a jump and potentially comboing off of the upwards swing, so... we'll see. Only just started messing with din's fire more today.

Trying to figure out if there's any way to set up Dsmash, presently, as it's the smash attack that seems to most lack for a role, now. Fsmash is great for pivoting punishes and throwing out a lingering hitbox to punish predictable dash grabs, Upsmash is great for catching attack-landings, but Dsmash has been really difficult to find a timing for-- a shame, as it still has a great KB angle, even with it feeling slower than Smash 4. Honestly, if a move requires a read, it seems like it's best to go for lightning kick over a smash, assuming you have enough of a window to do more than jab, and assuming you can't get a grab.

Anywhos, but yeah, adding way more lightning kicks to my play has shored up neutral a lot-- hard to parry, not too unsafe on shield, and a great way to condition lots of blocking to fish for grabs later, as lightning kick and grab can both lead to kills at high %, turning dashes into a 50-50 if your opponent doesn't have the space to counterattack with a projectile or something (especially since you can dash->shield into lightning kick as well if they panic Fsmash or something). Need so much more practice, either way. Man, I've only played maybe 2 hours total of non-Zelda characters-- she's just so fun to play in Ultimate.
 

Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#49
Okay, so, lightning kick? That's our replacement for Dtilt, it seems. Even in neutral, it feels like a safer poke than Ftilt, though even sourspot Fair/Bair don't seem to combo, as crossing up sourspot Fair into sweetspot Dair or such are definitely not true-- fun though. The only thing I could find that even remotely seemed like a combo from sourspot Fair was ledge drop rising FF Fair into Up B elevator, as that got me a surprise kill at-ledge. Idk that it's true, but even if it is, there's no way it's anything but situational.

Oh! Nair into Din's Fire almost seemed like it combos at... I want to say medium %? Din's Fire definitely combos with Phantom, in any case-- perhaps useful for sniping buffered double jumps offstage, if nothing else, as on stage it's probably not safe to try and use Din's fire when they're apt to rush you during a phantom charge. Though, covering above the phantom with din's fire does mean potentially sniping a jump and potentially comboing off of the upwards swing, so... we'll see. Only just started messing with din's fire more today.

Trying to figure out if there's any way to set up Dsmash, presently, as it's the smash attack that seems to most lack for a role, now. Fsmash is great for pivoting punishes and throwing out a lingering hitbox to punish predictable dash grabs, Upsmash is great for catching attack-landings, but Dsmash has been really difficult to find a timing for-- a shame, as it still has a great KB angle, even with it feeling slower than Smash 4. Honestly, if a move requires a read, it seems like it's best to go for lightning kick over a smash, assuming you have enough of a window to do more than jab, and assuming you can't get a grab.

Anywhos, but yeah, adding way more lightning kicks to my play has shored up neutral a lot-- hard to parry, not too unsafe on shield, and a great way to condition lots of blocking to fish for grabs later, as lightning kick and grab can both lead to kills at high %, turning dashes into a 50-50 if your opponent doesn't have the space to counterattack with a projectile or something (especially since you can dash->shield into lightning kick as well if they panic Fsmash or something). Need so much more practice, either way. Man, I've only played maybe 2 hours total of non-Zelda characters-- she's just so fun to play in Ultimate.
Dsmash is actually decent. It used to be Zelda's fastest option back in smash 4, now it's her second fastest option at frame 5, same as dtilt, just 1 frame slower than jab. It's decent for punishing rolls like many other down smashes, it is also great for its angle - it has a very very low angle that messes up many characters with bad or limited recovery options as it easily takes away their option to recover high. In addition, if you are out of time to punish a ledge regrab, running up and dsmash can kill most of the time if you don't have to time to jump and dair.
 
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One Tilt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
155
#50
Dsmash is actually decent. It used to be Zelda's fastest option back in smash 4, now it's her second fastest option at frame 5, same as dtilt, just 1 frame slower than jab. It's decent for punishing rolls like many other down smashes, it is also great for its angle - it has a very very low angle that messes up many characters with bad or limited recovery options as it easily takes away their option to recover high. In addition, if you are out of time to punish a ledge regrab, running up and dsmash can kill most of the time if you don't have to time to jump and dair.
I've been finding some use for it since then when I was practicing against Link, as I get so many chances to fish for lightning kicks that I tend to flub a few, and it's not a terrible follow-up to a falling sourspot Fair/Bair. Seems to also work when shorthopping to try and read a ledge jump with a lightning kick, as you can sometimes hop over a ledge attack and quickly Dsmash them. Spacing Fair at ledge when they recover too close to go for Dair, or too low to go for phantom, has proven to be very nice, as sometimes I've seen a use for Dsmash in that.

That said, didn't know it was as fast as Dtilt-- definitely her fastest punish barring jab, then. Hadn't thought of punishing ledge regrabs, as I tend to respect ledge attacks quite a bit (if they back off to regrab, I'd just as soon hit the ledge with a phantom). Frame 5, though-- wow. Yeah, I've got to play around with that more, then. Especially near/at ledge. Thanks for the details.
 

Ab9

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 5, 2018
Messages
4
#51
Fingers crossed they bring back smash 4 d tilt. It was nice a nice poke into grabs, jabs, or dash attacks in the neutral and great for edge guarding into d smash.
 

Lardboi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 7, 2018
Messages
16
#52
Saw some shenanigans on twitter where you can do a half charged phantom, release it, then up be into your opponent. Not sure how well this works for approaching or getting kills though. Can someone try some stuff so I dont have to
 

ZSel

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#53
Hey guys,

Here a cool vid if you didn't see it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndCgq2ygGv4

I personally tried some stuff and can D.Throw up air work on Mario at arround 60% and at 93% it kills him (he DI'd away, can't now for sure if they di in front and shouldn't be any problem if they di up)
So ye pretty good kill confirm, and easy to do if you buffer it.

Mario is really arround the average of weight for characters and most of the cast (like 70%) are lighter than him so keep that in mind to adjust it

Edit : oh and I think you guys mentionned it at some point, but you can connect d-throw - jump up-b by doing a tricky angle. I killed bower at like 80% or something so if that can kill others pretty quick that's good to master.

To train the angle just go at the edge of the stage do an up b and see how close you can be at the end of the move. The closest one is a bit tricky and I think that's the juicy one we want to get the kill. I personnaly put slighty on the left(or right) and then go full bottom while the move is performing to get it. If you guys have more efficient way to pull it out.

Edit 2 : up b kills Mario on the ground at 68%, dunno the frame data about how fast the move comes out, but we really should consider up b as an out of shield since shield grab aren't a thing in this game says Izaw.

If anyone has some frame data for Zelda, her grab / her up b. Could be very usefull at least for those 2 moves
 
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Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#54
Hey guys,

Here a cool vid if you didn't see it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndCgq2ygGv4

I personally tried some stuff and can D.Throw up air work on Mario at arround 60% and at 93% it kills him (he DI'd away, can't now for sure if they di in front and shouldn't be any problem if they di up)
So ye pretty good kill confirm, and easy to do if you buffer it.

Mario is really arround the average of weight for characters and most of the cast (like 70%) are lighter than him so keep that in mind to adjust it

Edit : oh and I think you guys mentionned it at some point, but you can connect d-throw - jump up-b by doing a tricky angle. I killed bower at like 80% or something so if that can kill others pretty quick that's good to master.

To train the angle just go at the edge of the stage do an up b and see how close you can be at the end of the move. The closest one is a bit tricky and I think that's the juicy one we want to get the kill. I personnaly put slighty on the left(or right) and then go full bottom while the move is performing to get it. If you guys have more efficient way to pull it out.

Edit 2 : up b kills Mario on the ground at 68%, dunno the frame data about how fast the move comes out, but we really should consider up b as an out of shield since shield grab aren't a thing in this game says Izaw.

If anyone has some frame data for Zelda, her grab / her up b. Could be very usefull at least for those 2 moves
There is actually a frame data thread right here on Zelda board that you can check out.

Edit: Here is the link to the thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/the...-pile-of-confusing-phantom-slash-data.455711/

Sorry man I don’t blame ya the title may not sound like a serious frane data thing to someone new to the board but that’s kinda how it works here
 
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ZSel

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
24
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#55
Yes thank you I didn't expect it to find it there indeed x)

I tried out myself with the training mod frame by frame thing just for the grab and the up b, turns up she has an amazing up b out of shield. Tried it vs players and you can actually up b out of shield straight up most of the time they don't have time to di and it kills them.

Her grab is kinda ****ty tho, one of the worst for non-hook grabbers :/
 

Time2mosh

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 14, 2018
Messages
5
#56
Yes thank you I didn't expect it to find it there indeed x)

I tried out myself with the training mod frame by frame thing just for the grab and the up b, turns up she has an amazing up b out of shield. Tried it vs players and you can actually up b out of shield straight up most of the time they don't have time to di and it kills them.

Her grab is kinda ****ty tho, one of the worst for non-hook grabbers :/

I couldn't agree more, they went out of their way to make grab better in Sm4sh I hope we get that again here, same with just a tad more DTilt distance and less angle. On that note has anyone been able to Dash attack cancel their grabs for the extended distance, it's either A LOT harder than Sm4sh or non existent now...

EDIT***
I just watched a video on roll cancel grabs and It looks easier and more effective then what she could do in Sm4sh, time to practice lol
 
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D

Deleted member 189823

Guest
#58
Dair upair around 75 is literally just stomp knee from melee. Ez af confirm that kills really early
Is it that "easy", though? I don't expect my opponent to always let me get away with the kind of landing lag the D-air has...
 

ZSel

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Messages
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#61
For the same result you've up b out of shield that kills very early and is garantee if they don't space well their moves otherwise. Same for fair/dair out of shield but kills at higher percent
 

Epok

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Messages
590
Location
Grand Rapids MI
#62
Yes thank you I didn't expect it to find it there indeed x)

I tried out myself with the training mod frame by frame thing just for the grab and the up b, turns up she has an amazing up b out of shield. Tried it vs players and you can actually up b out of shield straight up most of the time they don't have time to di and it kills them.

Her grab is kinda ****ty tho, one of the worst for non-hook grabbers :/
yeah, it's not great, but it seems grabs have been nerfed in general. Her pivot grab, however, is pretty okay.
 

One Tilt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
155
#63
Alright, I'm completely lost when it comes to OoS options. Up B is obvious, and also only especially useful against attacks that bring them very close. And, for that matter, only worth the hit at KO %. Lightning kicks are better at low %s (as they can sometimes lead to a quick FF dash attack or a sourspot->sweetspot rising/falling cross-up), but only against an opponent who is stationary, grounded, and not especially low to the ground... if the spacing is right. So, fantastic for punishing a yolo Fsmash, assuming they're close enough, but not so great a response to most dash attacks, down tilts, aerials, et cetera unless you're fighting Ridley or something.

So... what else is there? Jab and every tilt are too slow OoS, so someone mashing A when they whiff will generally get a jab or a tilt in first. I want the answer to be jump OoS and Nair, but the startup is far too slow. OoS Fair, meanwhile, is a 50-50 within a 50-50 if you were to try and use that every time, as you're not always going to be at any angle that can hit, let alone one where you can sweetspot. Neutral B is a kind-of-sort-of answer in that it gives you some space, but that feels about as rewarding as punishing a shield break with a jab, and the endlag makes it just as all-or-nothing a combo/approach break as Up B, tbh.

And... I'm not sure I see anything else. Obviously it's nice if we can parry a few hits, which will normally at least open things up enough for a jab, but... other than that, or having them space so poorly with such a laggy attack that even our slow-as-hell shield grab is usable, I just can't find a better response. Shielding feels like a one-way ticket to disadvantage on Zelda, at this rate. Is it completely non-functional outside of blocking extremely high-lag attacks (Up B finishers, some smash attacks) or parrying? Am I just not seeing an important option OoS? Am I just not using one of the OoS options I mentioned enough, and it works in situations I'm not seeing? I'm just sincerely stumped, at this point.

Oh, and down throw -> Bair definitely doesn't seem like a true combo outside of possibly for heavy characters-- seems like DI can at least force sourspots even at good %s even for "tall" characters like Falcon and Zamus. Though, sometimes a sourspot can lead to a cross-up lightning kick, in those cases. Up throw->Up B is definitely better, though, as a true combo at mid-high %s that will generally be a free KO from 70%-90%, or something like that. Down throw into Uair seems to be true sometimes at %s just past that, but that's harder for me to figure out how much the DI affects the % range. Past 110% or 120%, though, fishing for lightning kicks in neutral, or landing a jab near ledge, or landing an Ftilt to start edgeguarding seem better than going for grabs until 140%~ or so, as that's when Uthrow seems to KO. Jumping up B with an angle seems to be the same KO %s as downthrow Uair, so I'm not sure that's worth going for? But, again, I'm not in a great situation for testing, as I rarely play anything but randoms-- not great for testing.

Anywhos, if someone has any notes on ways to condition a playerbase that never shields into giving me an opening to grab more, or if someone has some answers OoS to share, much appreciated. My neutral game is fine right up until I need to shield, and my advantage state always seems to lead to everything but grab-- be that jabs, tilts, or hard read lightning kicks.

Edit: I haven't been able to try downthrow->Bair at 0%, as I haven't gotten a 0% grab in about a week, now. Training and AIs are obviously pretty useless at testing DI, so it may still work at very, very low %s where they'd ostensibly get less of a chance to DI anyway.
 
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MultipLe

Smash Rookie
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Jul 13, 2015
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NWT, Canada
#64
Parry -> dsmash
Full hop out

If people don't want to shield don't try to force the grab at all lol
You can just smack them for free with dash attack or tilts. There literally isn't a reason to be going for grab punishes when you get actual hits like dair/dash attack/uptilt/dtilt/etc
 
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One Tilt

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
155
#65
Parry -> dsmash
Full hop out

If people don't want to shield don't try to force the grab at all lol
You can just smack them for free with dash attack or tilts. There literally isn't a reason to be going for grab punishes when you get actual hits like dair/dash attack/uptilt/dtilt/etc
Full hop out of shield and then...? I mean, I wasn't super interested in giving my opponents all those free juggling lessons. Shielding has then effectively put me at disadvantage. Which wasn't really my idea of an OoS punish that lets me 3-stock this game's equivalents to FG little mac.

Grab is a free KO at 70%+. That's pretty significant. I'm not grabbing to punish, I'm grabbing to gimp them on-stage. I want to know how and when it works for the same reasons I want to know how and when you can, say, Dair spike someone. I'm not expecting to gimp every stock, I just want to be sure I'm not missing obvious openings, setups, tech, baits, et cetera that would allow me to take better advantage of what is undoubtedly one of Zelda's greatest strengths in ultimate.

Someone who isn't shielding is generally throwing out constant hitboxes. Basically the only problem that keeps our attacks from being "free" is the fact that our opponent is able to hit the A button with a swordie or such and just beat them. Phantom forces jumps, but their aerials still beat our options when we can't punish OoS, and... well, full circle.

Idk I might find something when I catch up on some sleep. Going without to play smash at 3am probably isn't helping.
 
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Jimster

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
33
#66
Alright, I'm completely lost when it comes to OoS options. Up B is obvious, and also only especially useful against attacks that bring them very close. And, for that matter, only worth the hit at KO %. Lightning kicks are better at low %s (as they can sometimes lead to a quick FF dash attack or a sourspot->sweetspot rising/falling cross-up), but only against an opponent who is stationary, grounded, and not especially low to the ground... if the spacing is right. So, fantastic for punishing a yolo Fsmash, assuming they're close enough, but not so great a response to most dash attacks, down tilts, aerials, et cetera unless you're fighting Ridley or something.

So... what else is there? Jab and every tilt are too slow OoS, so someone mashing A when they whiff will generally get a jab or a tilt in first. I want the answer to be jump OoS and Nair, but the startup is far too slow. OoS Fair, meanwhile, is a 50-50 within a 50-50 if you were to try and use that every time, as you're not always going to be at any angle that can hit, let alone one where you can sweetspot. Neutral B is a kind-of-sort-of answer in that it gives you some space, but that feels about as rewarding as punishing a shield break with a jab, and the endlag makes it just as all-or-nothing a combo/approach break as Up B, tbh.

And... I'm not sure I see anything else. Obviously it's nice if we can parry a few hits, which will normally at least open things up enough for a jab, but... other than that, or having them space so poorly with such a laggy attack that even our slow-as-hell shield grab is usable, I just can't find a better response. Shielding feels like a one-way ticket to disadvantage on Zelda, at this rate. Is it completely non-functional outside of blocking extremely high-lag attacks (Up B finishers, some smash attacks) or parrying? Am I just not seeing an important option OoS? Am I just not using one of the OoS options I mentioned enough, and it works in situations I'm not seeing? I'm just sincerely stumped, at this point.

Oh, and down throw -> Bair definitely doesn't seem like a true combo outside of possibly for heavy characters-- seems like DI can at least force sourspots even at good %s even for "tall" characters like Falcon and Zamus. Though, sometimes a sourspot can lead to a cross-up lightning kick, in those cases. Up throw->Up B is definitely better, though, as a true combo at mid-high %s that will generally be a free KO from 70%-90%, or something like that. Down throw into Uair seems to be true sometimes at %s just past that, but that's harder for me to figure out how much the DI affects the % range. Past 110% or 120%, though, fishing for lightning kicks in neutral, or landing a jab near ledge, or landing an Ftilt to start edgeguarding seem better than going for grabs until 140%~ or so, as that's when Uthrow seems to KO. Jumping up B with an angle seems to be the same KO %s as downthrow Uair, so I'm not sure that's worth going for? But, again, I'm not in a great situation for testing, as I rarely play anything but randoms-- not great for testing.

Anywhos, if someone has any notes on ways to condition a playerbase that never shields into giving me an opening to grab more, or if someone has some answers OoS to share, much appreciated. My neutral game is fine right up until I need to shield, and my advantage state always seems to lead to everything but grab-- be that jabs, tilts, or hard read lightning kicks.

Edit: I haven't been able to try downthrow->Bair at 0%, as I haven't gotten a 0% grab in about a week, now. Training and AIs are obviously pretty useless at testing DI, so it may still work at very, very low %s where they'd ostensibly get less of a chance to DI anyway.
So I have been testing on Marth and Daisy with a second controller and dthrow to bair works all the way till 90% even with di away. The timing is definitely hard on higher percent but it's possible. I tried to test out up throw into up B, it doesn't seem to be a true combo at any percent on marth or daisy when I tested it with holding buffered up B, would you mind to share what character you tested on?
 

ZSel

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Geneva
#67
Alright, I'm completely lost when it comes to OoS options. Up B is obvious, and also only especially useful against attacks that bring them very close. And, for that matter, only worth the hit at KO %. Lightning kicks are better at low %s (as they can sometimes lead to a quick FF dash attack or a sourspot->sweetspot rising/falling cross-up), but only against an opponent who is stationary, grounded, and not especially low to the ground... if the spacing is right. So, fantastic for punishing a yolo Fsmash, assuming they're close enough, but not so great a response to most dash attacks, down tilts, aerials, et cetera unless you're fighting Ridley or something.

So... what else is there? Jab and every tilt are too slow OoS, so someone mashing A when they whiff will generally get a jab or a tilt in first. I want the answer to be jump OoS and Nair, but the startup is far too slow. OoS Fair, meanwhile, is a 50-50 within a 50-50 if you were to try and use that every time, as you're not always going to be at any angle that can hit, let alone one where you can sweetspot. Neutral B is a kind-of-sort-of answer in that it gives you some space, but that feels about as rewarding as punishing a shield break with a jab, and the endlag makes it just as all-or-nothing a combo/approach break as Up B, tbh.

And... I'm not sure I see anything else. Obviously it's nice if we can parry a few hits, which will normally at least open things up enough for a jab, but... other than that, or having them space so poorly with such a laggy attack that even our slow-as-hell shield grab is usable, I just can't find a better response. Shielding feels like a one-way ticket to disadvantage on Zelda, at this rate. Is it completely non-functional outside of blocking extremely high-lag attacks (Up B finishers, some smash attacks) or parrying? Am I just not seeing an important option OoS? Am I just not using one of the OoS options I mentioned enough, and it works in situations I'm not seeing? I'm just sincerely stumped, at this point.

Oh, and down throw -> Bair definitely doesn't seem like a true combo outside of possibly for heavy characters-- seems like DI can at least force sourspots even at good %s even for "tall" characters like Falcon and Zamus. Though, sometimes a sourspot can lead to a cross-up lightning kick, in those cases. Up throw->Up B is definitely better, though, as a true combo at mid-high %s that will generally be a free KO from 70%-90%, or something like that. Down throw into Uair seems to be true sometimes at %s just past that, but that's harder for me to figure out how much the DI affects the % range. Past 110% or 120%, though, fishing for lightning kicks in neutral, or landing a jab near ledge, or landing an Ftilt to start edgeguarding seem better than going for grabs until 140%~ or so, as that's when Uthrow seems to KO. Jumping up B with an angle seems to be the same KO %s as downthrow Uair, so I'm not sure that's worth going for? But, again, I'm not in a great situation for testing, as I rarely play anything but randoms-- not great for testing.

Anywhos, if someone has any notes on ways to condition a playerbase that never shields into giving me an opening to grab more, or if someone has some answers OoS to share, much appreciated. My neutral game is fine right up until I need to shield, and my advantage state always seems to lead to everything but grab-- be that jabs, tilts, or hard read lightning kicks.

Edit: I haven't been able to try downthrow->Bair at 0%, as I haven't gotten a 0% grab in about a week, now. Training and AIs are obviously pretty useless at testing DI, so it may still work at very, very low %s where they'd ostensibly get less of a chance to DI anyway.
Ye I struggle aswell for the dthrow grabs follows up, fair doesn't work at all we need more precise data about. Generally I just buffer the nair out of the dthrow, and it works at least 90% ouf the time.

But the Fair/Dair out of shield is insane man, I rarely saw a character that can punish like that, but all their dash attack / or miss spaced aerials get destroyed. It is fast, has a good range and is safe aswell if you see you'll be out of range for the punish. I agree with you on the point that sometimes it misses and I don't really know how it works at this point to get 100% of the time the correct one, but at early percent especially I rarely miss the strong hit and this oos option make them respect me. Otherwise they'd just harass me all the time. Nair is really good too if you buffer it it's not slow at all. I think the most important thing and maybe it's here you have some problems is that you've to get those "good situations" for you. Running shield make them either do an aerial or run away.

The only type of opponent that give me problems is the one you you stated I think, that goes a lot for grabs when they see you shielding a lot their spamming aerials. If they're fast (like Cloud by example) it's even harder and here I'm not gonna like I've problems too. Somtimes when I see them going for a grab I try to dash attack them before but they're just so fast they dash dance me away. I think (not sure at all) using your phantom against them is somewhat good. If you can get the punch from your phant at least it generally gives you a techchase situation so you can dash attack or boostgrab.

You don't want to go for shield grab or others moves like tilt and smash unless you see they use a laggy move. (if you saw the video it explains why) Also because releasing grab is so slow in this game, jumping is always better. Don't know if you saw the video from Izaw about it.

If you've more specific character against who you've hard time with your oos of shield that'd help. Obviously some characters are just better and faster on many points it's gonna be as effective if they're really cautious, but after 100 games I defintly think Zelda oos game is one of his main strength and allow her to getting respect and not being so low in a potential future tier list.
 

BJN39

Smash Data Ranger
Moderator
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Messages
5,041
Location
The Zelda Boards
#68
There is actually a frame data thread right here on Zelda board that you can check out.

Edit: Here is the link to the thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/the...-pile-of-confusing-phantom-slash-data.455711/

Sorry man I don’t blame ya the title may not sound like a serious frane data thing to someone new to the board but that’s kinda how it works here
Okay but actually if that joke about the lots of phantom data really does make people miss the thread then noted and removeT, because I definitely do NOT want people to miss out on all the data in there!

~

When I see a “low%” Dtilt in a combo now I gotta question it. In SSB4, Dtilt at 0% was actually a Negative(!) advantage on hit so the opponent could actually move first by 1-3 frames iirc. (Damage and presumably KB were left unchanged judging by general labbing for KO %s) I know the endlag got buffs, but even then, a 60 degree angle DI’ed outwards is terrible, like, really far outward. I’ll have lab more, but unless Zelda can actually close the gap with a dash &/or air speed, outward DI (if managed) is probably going to neuter this move.

That said it’s ‘better’ in neutral now with less endlag and if the opponent can’t react DI (or do so every time you hit) then I guess you could get a little string. That just comes down to being willing to react with a “combo follow up” every time you have dtilt land because you’ve gotta be really quick. If the DI put and you whiff tho... Zelda is eating a punish.

Utilt feels amazing though, almost like it’s more guaranteed with itself but that’s probably placebo since I was bad at remembering to use Utilt in ssb4. I find dash canceling it really neat to get closer on aerial opponents (...as probably already mentioned here!) off the top of my head I can’t remember what to press, but you can turn really quick at the end of a dash or interrupt a skid and do the Utilt backwards, meaning you’ll hit later into the move if you hit, giving more frame advantage. Dash cancelling is honestly so cool, and Zelda has some moves that work for it.

I’m still discerning how different the KB formula is for this game, but the endlag and angle for dthrow never changed it seems, so Dthrow to UAir (AKA “Finger Bang”) is still a thing, and technically could be 3F more reliable with Zelda’s buffed jumpsquat. Behind another misleading thread title I do have this baby, which would still be applicable still if the KB formula isn’t too different! Rage is definitely different though so that part won’t match. Also clock Uthrow for being good at low-mid percents in the same way.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#69
Utilt feels amazing though, almost like it’s more guaranteed with itself but that’s probably placebo since I was bad at remembering to use Utilt in ssb4. I find dash canceling it really neat to get closer on aerial opponents (...as probably already mentioned here!) off the top of my head I can’t remember what to press, but you can turn really quick at the end of a dash or interrupt a skid and do the Utilt backwards, meaning you’ll hit later into the move if you hit, giving more frame advantage. Dash cancelling is honestly so cool, and Zelda has some moves that work for it.
I'm pretty sure it does combo into itself better. I remember it being difficult to combo on certain characters in 4 reliably and you always needed to be pretty quick about it in general. I've successfully combo it into itself multiple times in Ultimate and even got an up-air follow ups on opponents not quite on the ball and I swear it was guaranteed on one.
I’m still discerning how different the KB formula is for this game, but the endlag and angle for dthrow never changed it seems, so Dthrow to UAir (AKA “Finger Bang”) is still a thing, and technically could be 3F more reliable with Zelda’s buffed jumpsquat. Behind another misleading thread title I do have this baby, which would still be applicable still if the KB formula isn’t too different! Rage is definitely different though so that part won’t match. Also clock Uthrow for being good at low-mid percents in the same way.
I do find the mobility change on certain characters makes it impossible to combo up-air from down throw on players with good DI at least for me.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#70
Might be able to hold rapid jab to cover rolls similar to mac in smash 4
Is this still a thing?

Remember that buffering moves if different in this game and it works in Zelda's favor imo. Instead of hitting your next move 10 frames before your last move happens, you can now hold hold an action will doing a move and it will come out as soon as the last move ends. This includes short hop aerials when pressing attack+jump at the same time.
Like, literally, just hold?
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#72
N-air came natural to me. The kicks were harder because of the complications I had when inputting direction.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#75
I keep forgetting that it's a thing in general so I don't do it much. I think I'll practice it next time.
I think I was doing it wrong, though. The hitbox should probably suck opponents in, but I think I remember it just going over them.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
408
#76
I think I was doing it wrong, though. The hitbox should probably suck opponents in, but I think I remember it just going over them.
If you're talking about the kicks I think they have a set distance and aerial momentum that can make being precise difficult. So if you're standing in place and SH LK you'll shoot forward a bit without inputting DI yourself. If you're too close to your opponent you'll miss the sweet-spot and go through them. If you're talking about Nair its hitbox is small in general and will go over short characters.
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#77
If you're talking about the kicks I think they have a set distance and aerial momentum that can make being precise difficult. So if you're standing in place and SH LK you'll shoot forward a bit without inputting DI yourself. .
Sounds like retreating Kick is the idea to go for!
 
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Deleted member 189823

Guest
#79
Do we have a garanteed kill on people at actual kill percents? A dude said D-Throw kick is still true at "very high" percents. I feel like I keep beating a dead horse on this one, but I'm just genuinely very curious about our kill confirms. A lot of the time it combos, it doesn't really kill. D-Throw > U-air looks like it can combo at about 60-70, but I even light characters seem borderline on surviving.

M2K kept hyping us up as if you actually kill at those percents with D-Throw > U-air. lol
 

Eight&

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 27, 2018
Messages
1
#80
Here's what I've found (not sure if any of these have been posted yet lol):

All on Pit CPU with DI set to "a lot"

D-Throw > B-Air works at all percents from 0-71

D-Throw > U-Air works all percents from 49-130ish. Average-weight characters will die at around 105-110. Heavyweights will die at around 120-130, but the combo works on them for much longer.

D-Air > Up Smash works all percents from 40-69

D-Air > U-Air work all percents from 70-110ish

U-Tilt > U-Air works all percents from 45-69


I'm definitely not the best, so a lot of these percents might be a bit off. Please correct my information if you catch a mistake!
 
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