Zelda Combo Thread

Lardboi

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#2
Everything here was done in training on a Mario CPU with shuffling set to a lot, and I dont know how much DI will affect some of this. Ajust these values depending on character weight.

D.tilt>D.attack starts working at 24% and stops around 70%

You can do D.throw>Nair from 0% to 70ish but I dont think you can get anything after nair

D.throw>Bair works from 0 to 90 but is def DI dependent at the higher percents, can kill very early near the ledge

Spicy little combo I found is Strong Dair on a grounded opponent into up b. Since you cant tech spikes while grounded this might be pretty neat. The percents it works at are character dependent but I've had it kill as early as 35%.
Edit: Hard to get in an actual match, better to just go for down throw kill confirms.

This combo is likely useless but its kinda cool i guess. You can charge a phantom then run up and grab and quickly do a forward throw and the phantom will hit them right as the grab finishes doing something like 28%

You can get a D.throw>up air starting around 60 but the window is kinda tight and it'll probably miss if they DI away anyways

at 0% you can do D.throw>U.Smash, I barely get it to work at anything over 5% though

D.throw>Up b can kill at 75ish if you read their DI. You will most likely need to angle up B very slightly to the back of you, in between the top notches on a GC controller.

D.Tilt>Fair can start working around 30%

D.Tilt>Nair at 60ish

U.tilt>U.air at 45ish

Reverse U.tilt>Nair at 0
then it works normally at 4% idklol
until 30ish

you might be able to do Nair>Strong Fair but the window seems kinda tight and you need to space nair so they come out in front of you. Also only works at lower percents so prolly not worth

You can combo 1st hit of falling Nair into F.tilt or U.tilt

U.tilt into Fair or Bair at really low percents

Fully charged phantom can combo with side B for up 31%

B-reversed phantom is pretty cool

Back throw kills around 105 at the ledge

Might be able to hold rapid jab to cover rolls similar to mac in smash 4

Wiggling between crouch and stand is amusing

U.throw>Nair works at 0 and does like 30%

D.tilt>grab might work at 0% sometimes

Most of these combos can be strung together for bigger combos. Think something like falling Nair>U.Tilt>U.air

Up B has many angles you can use to land on stage, but getting the smaller ones can be difficult on GC controller since you need to go in between the bottom notches. Could be used as a surprise attack but you need make sure you space if perfectly so your opponent is sent to the side you want

Remember that buffering moves if different in this game and it works in Zelda's favor imo. Instead of hitting your next move 10 frames before your last move happens, you can now hold hold an action will doing a move and it will come out as soon as the last move ends. This includes short hop aerials when pressing attack+jump at the same time.

Will edit as i find more stuff and rip smash 4 D.tilt
 
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Codebox

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#3
Has anything been found in regards of Phantom Combos or any interesting follow ups?
 

Lardboi

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#4
I'll try some stuff after work, but you can probably only get stuff off fully charged phantom and they would have to be fairly quick options. I can see something like fully charged phantom>fair>phantom hits them working. Landing something like that in an actual game might be difficult though
 

Codebox

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#5
Interesting. I could see potential U-Tilts or Nairs out of it. Do you think them being hard to land in an actual game hurts its potential? I've also seen some inconsistent phantom plays. Some instances the Phantom breaks before they can set it up, other times I see reads and KOs off of it. I just hope the combos are enough to help even when hard to use. I'm interested to see one follow up to Farore's Wind or U-Air chase. Which moves have the most potential you find?
 

Katy Parry

The Only Zelda in Indiana
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#6
Most of the time I can have a phantom ready and punish an approach with Nair, and then the phantom will combo
 

Codebox

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#7
Oh so it is about the timing then? Interesting. I'll need to work on that, a bit of a rookie player here so going to be learning this game to some extent. (I have played all the Smash games, but I'm working on being better in this one) I'd love to see more clips, could be very interesting. Do you find the Phantom crumbling an issue or have you been planning it a lot? Are some of the Phantom combos actually kill confirms or follow up confirms?
 

Lardboi

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#8
Ok so tried a bunch of stuff
First off theres this really stupid combo at 0
You do fully charged Phantom>run up and U.tilt>Phantom hits them>Fair and it does just under 50%. Might be good if your opponent is scared of phantom and if you read that they'll shield just grab

Phantom into anything works, doing running up and down tilts is the best way to go since you can follow up with pretty much anything after the phantom hits. Spacing with phantom matters for some combos

Phantom then then doing the first hit of U.air can lead to a few things

Phantom>run up D.tilt>phantom hits>U.tilt>Nair is an example of phantom combos being a thing

Keep in mind all the tools your opponent has to deal with phantom such as reflects, projectiles, or just being really fast. So dont be afraid the use your phantom at early stages if you predict it'll be countered at full charge

I found a punish that will give you 1000000 style points if you land it and I claim all rights to it.
Basically Fully charged phantom>wait half a second>run up and get a strong Dair off the stage right after the phantom hits them
Also works with Fair, Dair, and U.air but to less effect and Nair is just lame

TLDR: Zelda is sick
 
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Lardboi

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#11
So if Zelda is hit by anything while charging phantom, the phantom breaks. So you might wanna rely more on neutral b to approach rather than down b. Simon/Richter is one of her worst matchups by far. You can camp by spamming phantom at 4 or 5 charge and side b though.

If i had to place zelda in a tier list I'd prolly put her high mid tier, She has lots of combos and kill confirms but actually hitting half of them is really difficult. imo she destroys heavyweights that have bad or no projectiles, does bad against really fast characters, gets destroyed by good zoners, and goes about even with the rest

top tier waifu tho
 
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Vierro

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#12
Some findings I found

Short-hop fair or bair out of shield punishes (not even perfect shielding) works for some reason. It’s also a good whiff punish since they come out so fast. Pretty much will never miss the sweetspot if you’re against heavyweights or big targets. Instant 20% or guaranteed kill if you block a smash attack. Short hop attacks do less damage but it doesn’t matter since zelda’s fair/bair’s so strong. It’s also harder to short hop in ultimate.

Fair and bair are now identical in damage, knockback, and frame data.

Fully charged down b -> grab right after they’re hit -> d throw -> bair for easy 50%
DI dependent tho, and the timing’s a bit strict but not that difficult.

I’m pretty sure fully charged down b’s hitbox goes below the ledge or inside the ledge at least. I got some kills doing that when people lose their ledge invincibility at mid to high percents.

F smash is really, really good. Last hit has good killing power and more range than the multihit portion.

Dash attack is so gooooooood (when it hits). Reliably kills and good as a whiff punish if you fox trotted.

Nair drag downs are risky since they don’t have a lot of hitstun but when it does work, you can do smash 4 combos with up tilt, jab, d tilt (wouldn’t recommend), or grab.

Rip d tilt’s combos

F tilt is meh. I use as an out of shield option if I’m not confident short hop fair/bair or grab would hit. It feels slower than in smash 4 but idk for sure.

Elevator’s still works the same as smash 4. Jump cancel elevator’s a bit harder to do since the jump squat window in ultimate is a lot smaller.

Jab’s good but doesn’t combo like it used to.

Up air is slower than in smash 4 I think. There’s a bigger delay before the explosion so it’s easier to escape. Also not as much knockback? Idk for sure since it’s so damn hard to hit.
 
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manchildman

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#13
I found a punish that will give you 1000000 style points if you land it and I claim all rights to it.
Basically Fully charged phantom>wait half a second>run up and get a strong Dair off the stage right after the phantom hits them
Also works with Fair, Dair, and U.air but to less effect and Nair is just lame

TLDR: Zelda is sick
I just recently transitioned into a Zelda main and I found this combo last night and was happy to see other people acknowledge it here! I was stoked when I landed it, because it just looks so tight.


Video here if anyone wants to see:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosU...tly_adopted_zelda_and_just_landed_this_spicy/
 
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Lardboi

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#14

One Tilt

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#16
Up throw seems to combo into up B at KO %s (70%-90% or something?). Doesn't seem to always work, as sometimes the hit doesn't have enough power to KO before they're out of combo range, and I'm not sure of the exact %s per character (the cast is insane). Anywhos, I was looking for combos and noticed it was missing here. I've tried to DI out of it, but I'm just not that good at juggling controllers-- real testing would take someone far more competent.

Oh, and, specific to down throw into Nair, remember that downthrow sends them behind now-- took me a full day to catch on to that. x.x

Has anyone mentioned landing Nair into Jab? I don't imagine it's true or anything, and I keep crossing myself up because I suck, so I don't land it often, but at low %s it's been decent enough as an approach (as Nair autocancels quick enough to jab before a shield grab could come out, which I've caught a few peoples' shield drops with-- or in one lucky case actually shield broke someone).

Also, I've had stage-bouncing Dair into panic Uair work twice now, so idk how viable it is or the specific %s, but it probably covers a different % range than stage Dair -> Up B, which was mentioned.

Anywhos, mediocre at the game, so I'm just mentioning anything I notice in case someone qualified just forgot to try or talk about it. ^^;
So happy that this game is so much less Brawl than Smash 4 was, and that Zelda finally seems good! T^T
 

Lardboi

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#17
Up throw seems to combo into up B at KO %s (70%-90% or something?). Doesn't seem to always work, as sometimes the hit doesn't have enough power to KO before they're out of combo range, and I'm not sure of the exact %s per character (the cast is insane). Anywhos, I was looking for combos and noticed it was missing here. I've tried to DI out of it, but I'm just not that good at juggling controllers-- real testing would take someone far more competent.

Oh, and, specific to down throw into Nair, remember that downthrow sends them behind now-- took me a full day to catch on to that. x.x

Has anyone mentioned landing Nair into Jab? I don't imagine it's true or anything, and I keep crossing myself up because I suck, so I don't land it often, but at low %s it's been decent enough as an approach (as Nair autocancels quick enough to jab before a shield grab could come out, which I've caught a few peoples' shield drops with-- or in one lucky case actually shield broke someone).

Also, I've had stage-bouncing Dair into panic Uair work twice now, so idk how viable it is or the specific %s, but it probably covers a different % range than stage Dair -> Up B, which was mentioned.

Anywhos, mediocre at the game, so I'm just mentioning anything I notice in case someone qualified just forgot to try or talk about it. ^^;
So happy that this game is so much less Brawl than Smash 4 was, and that Zelda finally seems good! T^T
First hit of nair seems to combo into whatever you want most of the time so I'd assume jab too
 

NotSoAsian

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Dec 10, 2018
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#18
I've been labbing this on most characters. On lighter characters you start it with Up Throw and on mid to heavy characters you do Down Throw. If you do it right it is a 46% combo at 0%. It still works around 5-10%. It is Dthrow>Full Hop Nair drifting slightly towards the direction they go>buffered jump Bair. DI does not help them get out of this. This same thing works with Up Throw on lighter characters like pikachu.
 

Ab9

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#19
I'm very saddened by the lack of jab and down tilt combo potential in this game. Smash 4 I could mix everything into a satisfying string against heavies.
 

Lardboi

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#20
I'm very saddened by the lack of jab and down tilt combo potential in this game. Smash 4 I could mix everything into a satisfying string against heavies.
The loss if smash 4 Dtilt does suck, but Zelda is still very good against heavies
 

Epok

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#21
Up throw seems to combo into up B at KO %s (70%-90% or something?). Doesn't seem to always work, as sometimes the hit doesn't have enough power to KO before they're out of combo range, and I'm not sure of the exact %s per character (the cast is insane). Anywhos, I was looking for combos and noticed it was missing here. I've tried to DI out of it, but I'm just not that good at juggling controllers-- real testing would take someone far more competent.

Oh, and, specific to down throw into Nair, remember that downthrow sends them behind now-- took me a full day to catch on to that. x.x

Has anyone mentioned landing Nair into Jab? I don't imagine it's true or anything, and I keep crossing myself up because I suck, so I don't land it often, but at low %s it's been decent enough as an approach (as Nair autocancels quick enough to jab before a shield grab could come out, which I've caught a few peoples' shield drops with-- or in one lucky case actually shield broke someone).

Also, I've had stage-bouncing Dair into panic Uair work twice now, so idk how viable it is or the specific %s, but it probably covers a different % range than stage Dair -> Up B, which was mentioned.

Anywhos, mediocre at the game, so I'm just mentioning anything I notice in case someone qualified just forgot to try or talk about it. ^^;
So happy that this game is so much less Brawl than Smash 4 was, and that Zelda finally seems good! T^T
I actually was wondering about up throw to up b as well because it’s been fairly consistent around 80-90%. It may be too good to be true lol.
 

GreyFox86

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#22
So I just did this to K Rool from 0%

D.throw > Nair > sh Fair > D.smash = 55.6%

Also I've been messing around with the kill percentage that start with D.throw.

So far, and unless they can air dodge out of it or DI, I can get a kill confirm from the big characters at anywhere between 125% and 130% from D.throw > Uair. I want to try to do more test with mid and light characters to see if I can get a confirm kill early.
 
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Lardboi

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#23
Dtilt>Utilt>fh nair>strong fair does 57.2% on heavyweights starting around 25%

And just found a 67.4% combo starting at 0
Fully charged phantom>sh strong dair>land then sh nair>strong fair
Again for heavyweights

Another one, Same start as last but put Utilt before nair and end with bair for 69.9%
 
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Lardboi

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#25
How is Zelda's matchups coming so far? Found any MU's that she excels at?
I've found she does well against most Heavyweight and super heavyweight characters, think DDD, Ike, Incineroar, Bowser, Ganondorf, who cant projectile camp you. So K rool, and Rob might be annoying. I think you should force people to approach while charging a phantom and punish according to what they chose to do. Her reflect isnt too great against characters with multiple projectiles, so Young Link, and Simon/Richter will be really hard for her since they dont really need to approach. Speedy characters might be a nuisance since she doesnt have too many quick moves to deal with them. She can punish super hard on stuff like missed grabs for example since she has many 30-50% combos off Up and down tilt also grab. Has a good few mixups with the phantom as well.

These are my thoughts so far and idk how right I'll be about this since games not even a week old

Edit: 0-death true combos exist for a few characters, hitting them in a real game will be really hard though
 
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Codebox

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#26
I had a feeling she'd be good against someone like DDD, Ganondorf and Incineroar. Yeah Speedies and Sword users will always be a bane to her I feel. And nice to hear about Phantom mix ups as well. I guess we'll see what other stuff she can do as the game progresses. Would you say her edguarding has improved with the new stuff with Dins Fire and Phantom? I still think a few of her moves should be faster. Any interesting stuff with Nayru's?
 

Lardboi

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#27
Dins Fire is a lot better than the last game since you can actually use it and not get punished for doing so and Phantom as an edge guarding tool is also much better since you can place it off stage. It can be a bit tricky though since it starts behind you and you must wait for it to fully charge before doing anything or else you could risk SDing. I dont really know what to do with Nayrus love other than a get off me tool. If you can still use it to do a love jump, then that'll be pretty cool, but I havent tested it.

Heres a vid of love jumping in smash 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo_ZkdDoWU8

Edit: Not really working for me, but if someone else get it please share
 
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Codebox

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#28
The only other thing I could think to do with it would be to have Zelda instantly drift in any direction using Nayru's Love in the air, like a directional thing similar to Pika's QA even using it to land, this would give her another landing option as well as a free option to use in the air, with it's intangibility applications Or have the hitbox still be out while Zelda shields against moves reducing getting punished upon using it. But that's about it. One can dream tho.
 

Katy Parry

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#29
Zhime, a PM Zelda god, is going to post some Zelda tutorials on love jumping, phantom drops, and a lot of other cool tech he's found, plus combos. So stay tuned for that.
 
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Lardboi

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#31
Zhime, a PM Zelda god, is going to post some Zelda tutorials on love jumping, phantom drops, and a lot of other cool tech he's found, plus combos. So stay tuned for that.
I'm assuming by phantom dropping you mean hitting down to fall through a platform then b very soon after to use phantom and have it stay on the platform
 

riku45

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#32
I have a few 0% combos

D Throw > utilt > up air. Does 7 hits for 35.5% damage. Tested with DI and still works.
D Throw > dash > Up smash. 12 hits for 27.4% damage.
D Throw > dash > short hop Neutral B. 9 hits 22.8% damage.
 

Lardboi

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#33
I have a few 0% combos

D Throw > utilt > up air. Does 7 hits for 35.5% damage. Tested with DI and still works.
D Throw > dash > Up smash. 12 hits for 27.4% damage.
D Throw > dash > short hop Neutral B. 9 hits 22.8% damage.
I wouldn't rely on up smash as a combo finisher too much, I've found its very easy for some character to fall out of it
 

StoicPhantom

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#34
Some fully charged phantom combos:

Sour spot fair > phantom. Pretty potent edgeguard if they're recovering above the ledge.

Dash/hop behind opponent > phantom > sweet spot bair. Difficult to pull off but looks cool.

Sweet spot fair on shield > phantom > fair on exposed opponent.

Din's fire > phantom > Farore's wind. Good for turtlers. Only pulled it off once though
not sure how viable it is.

I broke someone's shield with a phantom combo, but don't remember the combo and forgot
to save a replay so there's that.
 

One Tilt

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#36
So, I can't really figure out how consistent it is due to lag, but against some characters at very low %s I've gotten some down throw -> Nair -> horizontal Up B strings that have been hitting way more than I expected. I feel like Up B might be able to do a lot more in this game, but I can't imagine punishing projectiles with telefrags is at-all optimal outside of fringe cases...

Dtilt into instant dash attack or Ftilt has generally been all I can safely string from Dtilt unless they're really close for an Utilt. Jab works if they don't have a faster jab or armor (i.e. Ike seems to be able to jab through it), and you definitely can't get a safe grab off of it without a hard read.

Down throw to lightning kick seems to work a few % below where up throw up B works, and down throw Uair seems to work a bit past the upper range for that. If their HP gets past 110%-120% or something, our best bet for a finisher seems to be rising SH lightning kick, or perhaps FF lightning kick if we get a punish. Other than that, it takes to more like 140%+ to get something like a non-stale up throw KO or a ledge jab/Ftilt KO. Though, of course, her smashes are still serviceable (notably Up smash to surprise punish landing aerials...).

So, while she seems to have decent strings for damage, I'm not seeing any way to combo into or elsewise set up a grab that doesn't get stuffed by jabs (or fast specials like dancing blade). Most games I struggle with come about because I never get any chances to fish for grabs in the first place, as I'm either being camped out (Link, Belmonts) or spaced out (Roy, Marth).

Man, I do really miss Smash 4's dtilt. The nerf to it seems a bit senseless, as I'm not seeing a good poke tool for neutral that could even remotely replace it's role. Also, stage Dair into Up smash definitely seems to have potential, at least on some characters at some %s, but I could only land a stage bouncing Dair 3 times to begin with. Also, accidentally ran past someone as a Phantom was charging and it slapped them into a pivot Ftilt, which was the coolest thing ever and definitely true.

The fact that we have a Mario Utilt now at low %s that can be followed up with rising Nair is quite nice, in any case. I just wish I had a better means of setting it up on omegas. Anyone figure out how useful the new dash cancelled attacks are for Zelda? I was hoping to make Dtilt work, but its range is just not great now, so I imagine Ftilt, Utilt, or Jab are probably the ones to experiment with...

Oh! Also, someone mentioned neutral B-- remember that it gives you a few frames of intangibility. Useful for clipping through Link's remote bombs' explosion when a boomerang or arrow is headed your way, and also it's not terrible as a punish for ledge/wakeup attacks if you short hop a tiny bit to get over the first few frames of their attack. Tricky, and pretty low reward, but it's worked a few times.

Got a bit off the combos topic, my bad. Honestly, I'm just finding more things that definitely don't work, like single jab into anything, or... well, trying to lead into jab/dtilt/utilt with anything other than a read, a falling Nair, or maaaaybe a sourspot Fair/Bair. If we can just figure out Zelda's tools for approaching (especially approaching hard campy matchups like Link), I feel like we've got it, though. So exciting. :3

Edit: Lightning kicks (rising SH and falling) seems good for approaching a character who doesn't have strong anti-air if they're sticking to the ground. Going to experiment with tilt sticking to duck cancel dash a lot of Ftilts against some AIs for a bit, see how it feels. Idk that it can lead to anything but a dash attack, maybe, but spacing Filts might just be how we have to play neutral in higher-range matchups? Doesn't really help against projectiles, though, so Belmonts/Link are still feeling difficult-- though, on the bright side, both feel exploitable offstage, given BotW Link's lack of tether opening him up to a few more spikes or phantom swipes. We'll see!
 
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Jimster

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#37
The new dtilt is definitely worse but it's not like there is no saving grace. It does combo into fair quite reliably at mid percent and kills if you're 2/3 into that side of the stage when you land it. You likely have to dash before fair by 40-60%. Training mode says it's true combo, in actual mataches I got it most of the time, it's possible that I haven't nailed the whole dtilt timing yet considering it's likely very tight on the timing if true.

Edit: If I recall correctly it used to combo into fair in smash 4 too but on a tighter percent frame
 
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Codebox

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#38
I really do want Smash 4's D-tilt to come back, but I do appreciate the speed of Ultimate's D-tilt it had a lot of combo/setup utility and if we got single jab follow ups our girl can effective setup more combo strings. Though Rapid Jab is good for punishing. We can only hope for patches guys. Has anyone found Nayru no longer canceling momentum helpful in anyway?
 
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One Tilt

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#39
The new dtilt is definitely worse but it's not like there is no saving grace. It does combo into fair quite reliably at mid percent and kills if you're 2/3 into that side of the stage when you land it. You likely have to dash before fair by 40-60%. Training mode says it's true combo, in actual mataches I got it most of the time, it's possible that I haven't nailed the whole dtilt timing yet considering it's likely very tight on the timing if true.
Really? Well, lightning kick is probably one of the best things you can get out of a combo, so that's way nicer than I thought, even being %-dependent. Makes it much more of a move like Mac's dtilt, so it might be a great way to pressure shield out of a run without needing to commit to a grab... have to see how safe that is, though, no one seems to remember there even is a shield on... online, I guess. I keep wanting to say "on FG".

I feel like Dtilt may have had a nerf to its low % hitstun? Maybe that's been messing me up... or perhaps just the fact that it has more KB, idk.
 
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Jimster

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#40
Really? Well, lightning kick is probably one of the best things you can get out of a combo, so that's way nicer than I thought, even being %-dependent. Makes it much more of a move like Mac's dtilt, so it might be a great way to pressure shield out of a run without needing to commit to a grab... have to see how safe that is, though, no one seems to remember there even is a shield on... online, I guess. I keep wanting to say "on FG".

I feel like Dtilt may have had a nerf to its low % hitstun? Maybe that's been messing me up... or perhaps just the fact that it has more KB, idk.
The Dtilt hitstun has always been low so I am not sure either, even in smash 4 some low percent Dtilt combos weren't actually true (namely dtilt into our super slow jab), but they were rather very hard to react for the opponent as jumping would be too slow, air dodging gets punished, straight up landing suffers a few frames of soft landing lag and most attack options in air are too slow.

The dtilt hitbox feels closer to Zelda for me as I recall they used to hit a bit before Zelda's foot but I can't be sure, it could totally be a visual thing as Zelda's new dress makes her crouched body look like it's in a greater angle. If the hitbox is the same though it should be safer now that endlag is less without reducing shield damage.

Edit: According to Ruben's latest Smash Ultimate calculator, Dtilt has a shield advantage of -13 frames, which is pretty bad. However the calculator is currently using Smash 4 data as Ultimate data is not out yet. According to PushBlockGaming's analysis video on Zelda, dtilt has 3 less ending lag than before, which narrows the shield advantage down to -10 frames. Now if you space well and opponent does not have a longer range grab or just short enough to grab Zelda's feet anyway, with the additional shield drop frames (now 4 frames more than smash 4), you should be safe from punish. That is all above situations work out and you react fast enough tho.

One very useful feature added in ultimate is the ability to view replays frame by frame, so I guess we could just test it out technically...

Calculator: https://rubendal.github.io/SSBU-Calculator/
Pushblock's Zelda analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTXo4hZku8o&t=720s
 
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