YOUR opinion on Ganondorf's match-ups.

[Ray_Kalm]

I have played SuSa, who is just a million times better than me in general.

Play one that abuses his grenades and rolls.

 

[PhantomX]

Rolling is only good on WiFi.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was about to say something, and PhantomX beat me to it.

I'll add that only nubs abuse rolls. All you have to do to win against a nub Pit (a character that always abuses rolls) is stay outside of his F-smash range until he rolls towards you.

Snake's grenades are not the biggest problem in this matchup anyway, the biggest problem is that anything you whiff gets punished by a 21% F-tilt or a DA/Mortar Slide all of which can kill you.

You can DA into his attacks and either win or clash, and 90% of the time you will be just outside of his grab range if you clank, so shielding in anticipation of the F-tilt is usually safe at this point. Flame Choke is viable for punishing him in between moves.

Once you actually land hits, Snake is a lot more limited. Your U-air beats everything he does, and if you can get to him fast enough offstage, a well-placed F-air or D-air should kill him.

Against Snake, there is a situation where a kill move can be viably used. Even if it's not common, it does exist.

You don't get that luxury against Metaknight, so thus Metaknight is a worse matchup than Snake. If Metaknight times his aerials/tilts correctly, they beat everything you do. You are also never going to be able to edgeguard a good Metaknight.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

@PhantomX: When I said that, I meant how useful they are against Ganon when abused.

I was about to say something, and PhantomX beat me to it.

I'll add that only nubs abuse rolls. All you have to do to win against a nub Pit (a character that always abuses rolls) is stay outside of his F-smash range until he rolls towards you.

Read above.

Snake's grenades are not the biggest problem in this matchup anyway, the biggest problem is that anything you whiff gets punished by a 21% F-tilt or a DA/Mortar Slide all of which can kill you.

You're wrong. Snake's grenades ARE the biggest problem in this match-up. Ganondorf has no way around them, and Snake can basically pull them out whenever he has the chance, without fearing a punishment. Gerudo may go through them, but that doesn't help much unless the Snake just throws them right when he plucks them out.

You can DA into his attacks and either win or clash, and 90% of the time you will be just outside of his grab range if you clank, so shielding in anticipation of the F-tilt is usually safe at this point. Flame Choke is viable for punishing him in between moves.

Grenades will beat DA, and if the Snake plays right, he should have the stage controlled properly and ALWAYS have a grenade in his hand. And no, his grab + FTilt are never "out of range" for Ganon. FTilt will force Ganon to 1.) shield, which gives Snake the chance to grab. 2.) Roll away, which gives Snake the chance to pluck out more grenades or DA/DAC to punish.

Once you actually land hits, Snake is a lot more limited. Your U-air beats everything he does, and if you can get to him fast enough offstage, a well-placed F-air or D-air should kill him.

Lol, no, no, no. All of Snakes move has more priority than our UAir. I have no clue where you got the opposite of that from. And once we land hits, Snake has a much better time at not getting juggled than Ganon does.

Snake can force you into anything at almost anytime with grenades, have the stage at his hand, KO you with ease, and live longer than you.

Snake's much harder than Metaknight. Metaknight, even though he's hard to hit, only takes a few hits to die from a fresh DAir or DA. The same can't be said for Snake. You can actually gerudo > Dtilt Metaknight for 22%, do it again or just randomly mind game him into other attacks till his hp is 85%-95%ish percent, that's when you predict a mistake and punish with DAIr or DA. The difference between Snake and Metaknight is, while Metaknight may be ungimpable, he actually doesn't force you into stuff which deal 20% damage and kill, and you can actually KILL him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're wrong. Snake's grenades ARE the biggest problem in this match-up. Ganondorf has no way around them, and Snake can basically pull them out whenever he has the chance, without fearing a punishment. Gerudo may go through them, but that doesn't help much unless the Snake just throws them right when he plucks them out.

Grenades don't stop you from moving. If you're fast and he doesn't cook them enough, you can toss them back. And there is just jumping over them.

Grenades will beat DA, and if the Snake plays right, he should have the stage controlled properly and ALWAYS have a grenade in his hand. And no, his grab + FTilt are never "out of range" for Ganon. FTilt will force Ganon to 1.) shield, which gives Snake the chance to grab. 2.) Roll away, which gives Snake the chance to pluck out more grenades or DA/DAC to punish.

You're obviously not going to DA him when he's grenade shielding. You do it when he attacks.

Lol, no, no, no. All of Snakes move has more priority than our UAir. I have no clue where you got the opposite of that from. And once we land hits, Snake has a much better time at not getting juggled than Ganon does.

You're just being illogical. Ganondorf's U-air has a TON more range above him than anything Snake has below him. At worst, you will trade hits, or he will air dodge. Snake's N-air only has good priority on the last hit (Mario's B-air or U-air when spaced correctly beats Snake's N-air, I've seen this happen quite a few times). Snake's D-air is an awful move that is inferior to his N-air in almost every way. Snake's B-air is decent, but doesn't have enough range below him to properly challenge Ganon's U-air.

The only way Snake is not getting juggled is after building enough momentum to B-reverse, or airdodging, while you can beat Snake's juggle tools with an Aerial Wizkick if he tries to U-air or U-tilt.

Snake can force you into anything at almost anytime with grenades, have the stage at his hand, KO you with ease, and live longer than you.

Snake can't actually force anything with grenades if you're just avoiding them. If he's forcing you to approach just because "onoz, I took 4% from an item toss", you're getting outpatienced. Snake can't actually force you to get hit by anything just by grenade camping.

Snake's much harder than Metaknight. Metaknight, even though he's hard to hit, only takes a few hits to die from a fresh DAir or DA. The same can't be said for Snake. You can actually gerudo > Dtilt Metaknight for 22%, do it again or just randomly mind game him into other attacks till his hp is 85%-95%ish percent, that's when you predict a mistake and punish with DAIr or DA. The difference between Snake and Metaknight is, while Metaknight may be ungimpable, he actually doesn't force you into stuff which deal 20% damage and kill, and you can actually KILL him.

You'll still kill Snake at like 90% with F-smash, so whatever. F-air still gets him at like 105% or something.

Metaknight has stuff that gimps you regardless of your DI, while Snake doesn't gimp you, but has to wait until 130% to reliably kill with a U-tilt.

Metaknight on the other hand can force you to get hit after he pokes you with (insert tilt). He can combo you into his Up-B which will get you pretty far offstage and set you up for an easy gimp. Metaknight destroys Ganondorf much more efficiently and safely, and chances are you're not going to ever land a fresh DA on him, and D-air is never a viable attack against a Metaknight who just F-tilt camps.

 

[bobson]

Don't underestimate SoPo. He can CG you to 81% and gets a free fsmash at the edge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't let him grab you at 0% far away from the edge then. Problem solved.

 

[PhantomX]

Grenades, Snake's jab, and Homing Missle > Ganon... in the air Ganon > Snake, but good ****ing luck getting Snake there.

Kalm - once again there is no air priority. If Snake is beating you in the air it means he's doing his moves before you, b/c all that matters is range and speed in the air.

 

[fonzi21]

Play one that abuses his grenades and rolls.

Grenades are a pain, but not impossible, but you should be praying that snakes love to roll, it's a blessing when someone rolls against Ganon, and/or spotdodges.

 

[PhantomX]

It's a blessing when someone rolls against Ganon, and/or spotdodges.

You sir, must have been born of Texas, because if there's any one thing we do here better than anyone else, it's **** on rolls and spotdodges.

 

[smashkng]

What do you do when he just Jabz Moar?



Anyway, I don't see Sonic being very bad in truth. The way Sonic overcomes his own, fairly ****ing, weaknesses, is in such a way that he has to come up to Ganon in a way Ganon actually likes.

Yes, occasionally, you'll get dash attacked for free, but Sonic for us has the plus that he has no free juggle combo. His utilt can't do that, and his U-airs are something he "pays for at retail," if that makes any sense.

Sonic has a very normal jab combo, an extremely slow and punishable ftilt (really; if you haven't actually used Sonic, you probably underestimate the lag on that thing), and rather low range. If Ganon knows his stuff, he knows when Sonic has priority and when he doesn't, and you just have to not challenge Sonic when he does.

ON THE OTHER HAND, Sonic does pick up really stupid stuff he can do to us - including, well, dumb F-air pressure, and I can only assume some annoying setups for damage strings at low percents with Spin Shots and so on. But really.... Sonic is a character whose quirky attributes have precisely deprived him of the sorts of things that Ganon really really hates, making this play like some kind of sane matchup, in a sane world.

Ooh, and gimps. Recover high, and he'll be way more scared of you than you should be of him.


This could actually get good, guys. I just wish I could play the Sonics I wifi against, 'cause apparently they're kinda good.


fonz, have you seen a Yoshi in Brawl? They don't give us 40:60. Or perhaps you're not aware of the indefinite chain grab he has on us.

Can't you just ban FD to stop grab release chain grabs? SV can still be used unless Ganon lands in a plataform.

 

[NatP]

C Tier

Sheik: 40:60QUOTE]

Hey fonzi, I think that you're a really good ganon, perhaps one of the best out there.. But I just don't understand how you think that shiek ganon is anything other than 0 100 or 5 95

 

[fonzi21]

They are personal opinions, and I don't believe any match up is to the point of where anyone has a 5% success rate or lower.

 

[Superspright]

Ice Climbers definitely trump Ganon. I don't think any amount of theory craft could make that match up even remotely fair.

 

[smashkng]

Ice Climbers definitely trump Ganon. I don't think any amount of theory craft could make that match up even remotely fair.

Counter Picking is the solution for Ganondorf. At least IC have bad stages where it's probably even close to even.

 

[Superspright]

Where would that be? I'd like to see that.

 

[smashkng]

Can someone explain me why is Diddy 10/90? Doesn't Ganondorf have good banana combos if he manages to steal one?

 

[Technodeath]

the key word right there smash, is "manages" if you can grab one, sure you can add some damage. good luck handling the rest of it.

i dont actually verse any decent Diddy's so i have no clue, im just using theory

 

[Superspright]

His banana combos are pretty awesome. And, if you can time the gerudo banana combo it is a free fsmash or a free WP if they buffer a getup attack.

 

[Lord Chair]

His banana combos are pretty awesome. And, if you can time the gerudo banana combo it is a free fsmash or a free WP if they buffer a getup attack.

We all know that.

Now feel free to show us how you manage to do anything at all against Diddy. That's right, you're fricking helpless.

If you hold a nana see what Diddy does, will he shield approach you? Honestly? No. You're f'ing dead. Matchup is 10-90, don't try to make it look any better because Ganon can do overly situational things.

 

[Superspright]

Overly situational? I guess you never watched...the...FONZ.

His match against AZ was flawless. I think if Ganon can be played nigh flawlessly, and his banana game can be shut down, or used against him then the matchup is nowhere near 10-90. More like 60-40. Ganon's glidetoss is significantly better than Diddy's, and he can pick up bananas with his aerials pretty easy.

I play my friend's Diddy all the time for practice. It's really a hard matchup, but it can be done.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Overly situational? I guess you never watched...the...FONZ.

His match against AZ was flawless. I think if Ganon can be played nigh flawlessly, and his banana game can be shut down, or used against him then the matchup is nowhere near 10-90. More like 60-40. Ganon's glidetoss is significantly better than Diddy's, and he can pick up bananas with his aerials pretty easy.

I play my friend's Diddy all the time for practice. It's really a hard matchup, but it can be done.

That's players skill, has nothing to do with match-up ratios.

 

[Superspright]

The match-up ratio is wrong then. I don't think it is that bad honestly. I think it can be done honestly. But, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[:034:]

The match-up ratio is wrong then. I don't think it is that bad honestly. I think it can be done honestly. But, maybe I'm wrong.

Don't give in, you have an opinion so stand for it.

Just rolling that out there.

 

[DoonKoon]

S Tier

Metaknight: 15:85
Snake: 05:95 40:60
Wario: 20:80
Falco: 05:95
Diddy Kong: 10:90
King Dedede: 10:90

A Tier

Marth: 15:85 30:70
Mr. Game & Watch: 20:80
Pikachu: 15:85
Olimar: 0:100
Ice Climbers: 0:100
R.O.B : 25:75
Kirby: 35:65 40:60

B Tier

Lucario: 25:75
Zero Suit Samus: 30:70
Toon Link: 30:70
Pit: 25:75
Donkey Kong: 35:65

C Tier

Peach: 25:75
Luigi: 30:70
Fox: 25:75 29:71
Wolf: 30:70
Sonic: 40:60
Sheik: 0:100 10:90

D Tier

Bowser: 40:60
Zelda: 35:65
Pokemon Trainer: 35:65
Ike: 35:65 45:55

E Tier

Lucas: 35:65
Mario: 35:65 20:80
Ness: 35:65
Yoshi: 15:85 10:90
Samus: 20:80

F Tier

Jigglypuff: 40:60
Captain Falcon: 40:60 60:40
Link: 35:65

Ganondorf: 50:50

This

 

[Superspright]

Don't give in, you have an opinion so stand for it.

Just rolling that out there.

If we all followed that then we'd have worldwide religions and other nonsensical beliefs--oh wait.

I don't stand for that particular opinion because I really have no matchup experience against a great diddy, or even a really good one. The good ones I have played pretty much made it impossible for me to do very much. But, these were wifi games. But I can see how anyone could shut down Diddy's banana game if they just practiced PSing them as well as directing the shield to make them bounce up onto platforms or away.

I did do one weird thing though with my shield. When I was playing a samus I kept tilting my shield to deflect it away. And at one point I shielded it and it literally circled my shield until it crashed behind me. So it went straight, then curved around me into the floor. It ended up damaging me because my shield was already kinda small, but it was the weirdest thing I've seen.

 

[Berserker.]

S Tier

Metaknight: 10:90
Snake: 05:95
Wario: 30:70
Falco: 10:90
Diddy Kong: 30:70
King Dedede: 25:75


A Tier

Marth: 25:75
Mr. Game & Watch: 30:70
Pikachu: 20:80
Olimar: 25:75
Ice Climbers: 1:99 --> 0:100
R.O.B : 30:70
Kirby: 30:70

B Tier

Lucario: 30:70
Zero Suit Samus: 20:80
Toon Link: 30:70
Pit: 25:75
Donkey Kong: 35:65

C Tier

Peach: 30:70
Luigi: 30:70
Fox: 35:65
Wolf: 40:60
Sonic: 40:60
Sheik: 05:95

D Tier

Bowser: 40:60
Zelda: 30:70
Pokemon Trainer: 40:60
Ike: 40:60

E Tier

Lucas: 40:60
Mario: 35:65
Ness: 40:60
Yoshi: 35:65
Samus: 20:80

F Tier

Jigglypuff: 40:60
Captain Falcon: 50:50
Link: 35:65
Ganondorf: 50:50

 

[smashkng]

S Tier

Metaknight: 15:85
Snake: 05:95 40:60
Wario: 20:80
Falco: 05:95
Diddy Kong: 10:90
King Dedede: 10:90

A Tier

Marth: 15:85 30:70
Mr. Game & Watch: 20:80
Pikachu: 15:85
Olimar: 0:100
Ice Climbers: 0:100
R.O.B : 25:75
Kirby: 35:65 40:60

B Tier

Lucario: 25:75
Zero Suit Samus: 30:70
Toon Link: 30:70
Pit: 25:75
Donkey Kong: 35:65

C Tier

Peach: 25:75
Luigi: 30:70
Fox: 25:75 29:71
Wolf: 30:70
Sonic: 40:60
Sheik: 0:100 10:90

D Tier

Bowser: 40:60
Zelda: 35:65
Pokemon Trainer: 35:65
Ike: 35:65 45:55

E Tier

Lucas: 35:65
Mario: 35:65 20:80
Ness: 35:65
Yoshi: 15:85 10:90
Samus: 20:80

F Tier

Jigglypuff: 40:60
Captain Falcon: 40:60 60:40
Link: 35:65

Ganondorf: 50:50

This

Can you find a way to deal with Snake's camping? His grenades and tilts are overly good. He has an extremely reliable KO move as well and is really heavy. He can even grab release chain grab thanks to his boost grab and finish it with a dash attack. And if Ganon has the recovery lag glitch he can follow up with forward tilt or up tilt out of a grab release (because he is forced to hard land which means 80 frame jump break animation instead of 50).