You get no Sympathy in a "Fire Emblem Discussion"

[Deleted member]

I thought he was a lobster?

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

How can anyone NOT want this sexy beast in Smash?

Sorry, but he's too manly for a Smash game. Would kill everyone instead of knocking them off the edges.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Poor excuse after poor excuse, just keep holding your fantasies about the Fire Emblem fanbase here in the states.



No, but seriously, it's not good to make such assumptions. I would not put Chrom as my top 5, my top 5 are, in order: Anna, Walhart, Libra, Rukina, and Lon'Qu.
But often when observing polls, it is useless to observe things which are outside the provided data, you don't know that Chrom would be higher, you don't know that Walhart's position was a mistake, you do not know that Rukina's position was based solely on people mistaking her for another, all it is is an opinion. Your affirmation that the Facebook poll is bad holds grounds on nothing but your feelings, but I encourage you to speak as such once you have absolute knowledge of the situation, do a poll of your own with the same exact population to sample from that has multiple selection and reveals who Rukina is.

If you know anything about statistics you'd know that getting a perfect piece of data without being skewed or being riddled with extraneous factors is dang hard.
Some of the claims against that poll have some warrant. My biggest criticism of single vote polls is that similar tastes can be divided by two good options. If a certain type of people generally like... (just an example) Chrom, Lucina and lon'qu, then those character will have their fans divided despite being popular while niche characters will receive all of their supporters' votes, making theme seem popular even though the previous three may have more fans.
Example of this phenomenon.

Spoiler

Also note that many definitions of knowledge a pretty steep. There are many out there and if you adopt one of the stricter policies then you might as well just stop backing up speculations now, 'cause we don't know anything.


Edit: I'm really just in a rambling mood right now. Don't take any of that as an attempt to advance in a heavy debate. I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry, but he's too manly for a Smash game. Would kill everyone instead of knocking them off the edges.

He'd fit in just fine with Ganondorf, then.



I used to not really care which FE character gets in from Awakening.

.....now I think I legitimately support Walhart despite how unlikely he is.

 

[Deleted member]

EDIT: accidental double post

 

[kikaru]

His Final Smash could be making everyone bow down to his feet as he conquers the entire Smash universe.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Why does the fact that they are a minority within the FE fanbase matter? They are the segment of the Western FE fanbase who have actually played the game.

Some people in the FE fanbase didn't like Shadow Dragon, Dark Dragon, or Mystery of the Emblem. Does that mean Marth shouldn't be in the game, because a segment of the fanbase considers his games bad?

I am doubtful that we will see Roy simply because he isn't a great rep for Fire Emblem. The vast majority of his popularity comes from Smash, and that doesn't make him a good rep for the franchise.

Popularity is popularity, no matter where it comes from.

Other lords are more popular (Ike, Chrom, Lyn) and their games are more important to the franchise (Lyn's game being the first international one and Chrom's saving the franchise). If IS has any say in the matter, and previous games indicate that they do, I can't imagine them wanting Roy brought back over a different and probably newer Lord.

Nobody has yet provided any substantial evidence that "Importance","relevance", or sales have any impact on a character getting in. For all the supposed importance of her game being the first international FE, FE7 got very little content in Brawl. All it got was:
-Lyn as an AT, and a corresponding Trophy
-A few stickers
-One song
You'd think if FE7's "importance" really meant all that much then Sakurai would have worked to include more content from it.

Also, keep in mind the final choice lies with Sakurai. IS can suggest a character all they want. but if Sakurai doesn't want them in they won't get in. And while you might have a point with Lyn(though by your own criteria I don't see why IS would suggest her), somehow I don't see Sakurai picking a blue haired Marth/Ike hybrid over Roy.

Even if we want to avoid so-called "flavor of the month" picks (which Roy was in the first place) Lyn still beats him out as a character who stands representative of FE as a series.

I'd dispute that Roy was a flavor of the month addition, for 2 reasons:
1. Sakurai tried to bring him back.
2. When you consider what Sakurai was looking for(i.e. a Marth clone who could stand out on his own), then Roy can clearly bee seen as the best option at that time(standing out more than any of the other reasonable choices at that time did).

 

[FlareHabanero]

I thought he was a lobster?

Lobsters aren't red, unless you're referring to a cooked lobster.

 

[Jaedrik]

Edit: I'm really just in a rambling mood right now. Don't take any of that as an attempt to advance in a heavy debate. I'm just thinking out loud.

Got it, chief, but I'm trying to think of a way to turn this into a scholastic discussion rather than a debate. But if you read that page I linked, knowledge isn't really that. . . steep of a thing, it's just different from what a lot of people think. Boy I love philosophy and semantics.

Analysis of the poll can be done in a different light, and it accounts for the mentioned discrepancies well. What you're pointing out is not a problem with single vote polls, but rather a problem with polls that have more than two choices, it's the problem of plurality. Look at Italy, for example, a comedian who had no political talent got 20% of the vote in recent election, we can presume that the other 80% didn't want him in office, but the niche plurality had spoken. The key thing is that the plurality problem does not work the other way, because there is no unifying banner for the 80% opposition to rally under, they are divided, and it is difficult to say that really, Chrom deserved those other 80% votes.

If we did have multiple vote polls, it would force people into thinking who they don't like rather than thinking who they like the most. If a so called 'niche' character gets more votes, it's because they earned it. I would rather say than some underpinning of 'niche support', I'd say that Chrom is not supported because he lacks what the other ones have: an entertaining character. Certainly, he does not have it to the degree that quite a few have, I'd say his position is even generous. Just being contrarian (Google dictionary strikes again) here. It's far more believable to say that Chrom isn't as interesting as others than to say he's simply not getting votes because he's bland. The only reason Chrom may get more votes if it was a multiple vote system is because he's a compromise character, bland and unoffensive.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Some people in the FE fanbase didn't like Shadow Dragon, Dark Dragon, or Mystery of the Emblem. Does that mean Marth shouldn't be in the game, because a segment of the fanbase considers his games bad?

That is the situation we're in but we've all given Marth immunity for being a mascot or pioneer of the series. Without this exception marth would be considered for being cut.

Popularity is popularity, no matter where it comes from.

Sakurai doesn't run the roster like a popularity poll. He looks at a character potential. An FE character who hasn't been in smash hasn't reached their potential popularity. So even there its unfair to compare them.

Nobody has yet provided any substantial evidence that "Importance","relevance", or sales have any impact on a character getting in. For all the supposed importance of her game being the first international FE, FE7 got very little content in Brawl. All it got was:
-Lyn as an AT, and a corresponding Trophy
-A few stickers
-One song
You'd think if FE7's "importance" really meant all that much then Sakurai would have worked to include more content from it.

The evidence is right there in the roster. But when people deny those factors of being the reasons there's nothing anyone can do about it unless sakurai specifically says so.

Also, keep in mind the final choice lies with Sakurai. IS can suggest a character all they want. but if Sakurai doesn't want them in they won't get in. And while you might have a point with Lyn(though by your own criteria I don't see why IS would suggest her), somehow I don't see Sakurai picking a blue haired Marth/Ike hybrid over Roy.

I'm just going to say blue hair isn't a valid argument against a character. Sakurais not going to show up to an interview one day, be asked "Why wasn't Chrom included?" and respond " 'Cuz he had Blu hair!".

I'd dispute that Roy was a flavor of the month addition, for 2 reasons:
1. Sakurai tried to bring him back.
2. When you consider what Sakurai was looking for(i.e. a Marth clone who could stand out on his own), then Roy can clearly bee seen as the best option at that time(standing out more than any of the other reasonable choices at that time did).

[/quote]
I don't like the flavor of the month mentality either but I'm okay with FE reps coming and going. Its how FE works. You like the lords who pass through but you don't cry when they're absent in the next installment.

 

[TheTuninator]

Some people in the FE fanbase didn't like Shadow Dragon, Dark Dragon, or Mystery of the Emblem. Does that mean Marth shouldn't be in the game, because a segment of the fanbase considers his games bad?

If you're arguing that we should pick a FE rep based on straight popularity, then Roy still doesn't get in. Other lords (and not just Awakening reps) are significantly more popular than he is, and that's with Roy's added popularity from Smash bolstering him.

Popularity is popularity, no matter where it comes from.

Except where that popularity comes from does matter if we are selecting characters to represent their series. Other people may feel differently, but I think that reps should be chosen based on how well they represent the series that they come from.

Nobody has yet provided any substantial evidence that "Importance","relevance", or sales have any impact on a character getting in. For all the supposed importance of her game being the first international FE, FE7 got very little content in Brawl. All it got was:
-Lyn as an AT, and a corresponding Trophy
-A few stickers
-One song
You'd think if FE7's "importance" really meant all that much then Sakurai would have worked to include more content from it.

Well, Lyn was in the final product while Roy was cut completely, wasn't she? Sakurai could have made Roy an assist trophy, but he didn't.

Also, keep in mind the final choice lies with Sakurai. IS can suggest a character all they want. but if Sakurai doesn't want them in they won't get in. And while you might have a point with Lyn(though by your own criteria I don't see why IS would suggest her), somehow I don't see Sakurai picking a blue haired Marth/Ike hybrid over Roy.

Why not? Sakurai clearly has no fierce personal attachment to Roy, or he would not have cut him from Brawl to begin with. Sakurai could easily decide to bring back Roy, but he could also easily decide to follow his traditional picking practices and go with the latest popular FE Lord.

I don't think that IS would suggest Lyn based on my own criteria either. They would suggest an Awakening rep. That said, she is still a more likely suggestion from IS than Roy. Unless they have a new game with him planned, IS does not stand to benefit from promoting Roy. They do stand to benefit from promoting an Awakening rep or, failing that, one of the other internationally available Lords.

I'd dispute that Roy was a flavor of the month addition, for 2 reasons:
1. Sakurai tried to bring him back.
2. When you consider what Sakurai was looking for(i.e. a Marth clone who could stand out on his own), then Roy can clearly bee seen as the best option at that time(standing out more than any of the other reasonable choices at that time did).

Roy was absolutely a "flavor of the month" addition at the time of Melee. He would not have been at the time of Brawl, of course. My point is just that arguing against characters based on "flavor of the month" is silly as it's a criteria for inclusion with some weight behind it, and inclusion in Smash will make pretty much any character lastingly popular.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I guess Sakurai doesn't have any attachment towards Mewtwo ether. Oh well, I guess he's not coming in ether. A shame because people would enjoy that character, but if Sakurai hates it's guts then it's not coming in.

 

[jaytalks]

Some people in the FE fanbase didn't like Shadow Dragon, Dark Dragon, or Mystery of the Emblem. Does that mean Marth shouldn't be in the game, because a segment of the fanbase considers his games bad?
Popularity is popularity, no matter where it comes from.
Nobody has yet provided any substantial evidence that "Importance","relevance", or sales have any impact on a character getting in. For all the supposed importance of her game being the first international FE, FE7 got very little content in Brawl. All it got was:
-Lyn as an AT, and a corresponding Trophy
-A few stickers
-One song
You'd think if FE7's "importance" really meant all that much then Sakurai would have worked to include more content from it.
Also, keep in mind the final choice lies with Sakurai. IS can suggest a character all they want. but if Sakurai doesn't want them in they won't get in. And while you might have a point with Lyn(though by your own criteria I don't see why IS would suggest her), somehow I don't see Sakurai picking a blue haired Marth/Ike hybrid over Roy.
I'd dispute that Roy was a flavor of the month addition, for 2 reasons:
1. Sakurai tried to bring him back.
2. When you consider what Sakurai was looking for(i.e. a Marth clone who could stand out on his own), then Roy can clearly bee seen as the best option at that time(standing out more than any of the other reasonable choices at that time did).

He has actually. For instance, he's given reasons for each of the clone characters included in Melee.
Sorry, but that still doesn't prove sales matter. Also, you should really give this a read.
Popularity is popularity. No matter where it comes from.
He(and his game) is unpopular among a very vocal minority in the Western FE fanbase. In Japan(you know, the people who actually got his game) he's actually one of the more popular lords.

Roy isn't popular not because of a vocal minority in the West, but because people haven't played his game. The thing is about polls, is that sales are the biggest and most important poll for games. It's the only one that a game company cares about it. It's the best way to gauge popularity. Even then, Roy still lacks popularity amongst the FE fanbase. If he's going to be a return rep, he at least needs to be popular among them, considering he's taking the place of someone who can better represent the series.

FE7 got a lot in relation to other FE games. FE 4 and 5 wish they could be an assist trophy. Considering the fact there were 10 games at the time, FE 9 and 10 only got Ike and I want to say a trophy, and FE 1 and 3 only got Marth. No FE games got items or stages. I suggest Lyn because she is badass whose game sold relatively well. Lucina isn't Marth/Ike hybrid. She can fight however they choose to make her. And as I've pointed out, her style of sword fighting includes a fair amount of stabs. Roy at this point is still literally a clone of Marth.

That's the problem with the Forbidden 7 stuff. People see game data and they take it to mean Sakurai tried to bring him back. They utilitiza unused game data to reach whatever conclusion they want. I don't see an unfinished victory theme as Sakurai trying to bring Roy back. It's something we're not supposed to see because we don't know what else they took out during development. We don't know how far along development that was, or how far along Roy made it in discussions.

Importance and relevance is just speculation. There's no proof anything we discuss on these forums has an impact on a character's inclusion. I don't get why you need to keep bringing that up. You can say that with basically any point anyone makes. I meant there's not exact blueprint or formula for a getting into Smash. It's all just guess work from us. If anything, history suggest Sakurai's choices are fairly random.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

If you're arguing that we should pick a FE rep based on straight popularity, then Roy still doesn't get in. Other lords (and not just Awakening reps) are significantly more popular than he is, and that's with Roy's added popularity from Smash bolstering him.

Yet despite allegedly being less popular, he's still the most wanted FE character for Smash, even without really tapping in to the Japanese audience.

Well, Lyn was in the final product while Roy was cut completely, wasn't she? Sakurai could have made Roy an assist trophy, but he didn't.

You could say the same thing about Mewtwo. And my point still stands: if Lyn's game were so "important", why did it barely get any more than other FE games?

Why not? Sakurai clearly has no fierce personal attachment to Roy, or he would not have cut him from Brawl to begin with. Sakurai could easily decide to bring back Roy, but he could also easily decide to follow his traditional picking practices and go with the latest popular FE Lord.

We could speculate all day on what Sakurai could do. He could not include any new FE characters and stick with Marth/Ike. He could make Navarre the next playable character. you can't just say he could do something without backing up your claim with evidence why he would do that.

I don't think that IS would suggest Lyn based on my own criteria either. They would suggest an Awakening rep. That said, she is still a more likely suggestion from IS than Roy. Unless they have a new game with him planned, IS does not stand to benefit from promoting Roy. They do stand to benefit from promoting an Awakening rep or, failing that, one of the other internationally available Lords.

Again, the final choice lies with Sakurai. If he doesn't find whoever IS suggest to be interesting, he won't add them. Simple as that.

Roy was absolutely a "flavor of the month" addition at the time of Melee. He would not have been at the time of Brawl, of course.

No he wasn't, because that wasn't the reason he was included. He was included because he was the best option for what Sakurai was looking for.

Spoiler

Considering that Sakurai was looking for a FE character that could be a Marth clone while standing out, we can narrow down who his likely choices would have been:
-Alm(Doesn't bring much to the table that would have helped him stand out from Marth)
-Sigurd(Suffers from the same problems as Alm, plus Sakurai likely would have had the same problem with Sigurd as he did with Wolf(i.e. he would be too visually similar to Marth to stand out)
-Seliph(see above)
-Leif(Same problem as Alm, though unlike the other Jugdral lords he stands out visually, which is likely why he was Sakurai's first choice for a clone)
-Roy(Stands out visually from Marth, and unlike all the other choices he actually has a gimmick that would help him stand out in terms of gameplay(i.e. his flame sword)

My point is just that arguing against characters based on "flavor of the month" is silly as it's a criteria for inclusion with some weight behind it, and inclusion in Smash will make pretty much any character lastingly popular.

and to a lesser extent:
.

 

[TheTuninator]

I guess Sakurai doesn't have any attachment towards Mewtwo ether. Oh well, I guess he's not coming in ether. A shame because people would enjoy that character, but if Sakurai hates it's guts then it's not coming in.

This comparison falls a bit flat, don't you think? Mewtwo may return as he has a starring role in an upcoming movie as well as a new form which will no doubt be heavily promoted, and we know that Sakurai's criteria for Pokemon includes "what is hot right now?". Like I said, if IS has a new game planned for Roy that would help his chances greatly, but Roy and Mewtwo are in very different circumstances.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

and we know that Sakurai's criteria for Pokemon includes "what is hot right now?".

We do?

 

[jaytalks]

Yet despite allegedly being less popular, he's still the most wanted FE character for Smash, even without really tapping in to the Japanese audience.

As I've said, he's wanted because people have a moveset, playstyle, and a familiarity in mind for him that other newcomers don't. It's like if you were to have a short film contests, but newcomers can only bring in a short film script, but Roy gets to bring an entire 15 minute movie and got funding from his film school. It doesn't really make sense to put him a poll with newcomers. It makes more sense for him in to be a poll with Smash Veterans.

 

[TheTuninator]

Yet despite allegedly being less popular, he's still the most wanted FE character for Smash, even without really tapping in to the Japanese audience.

Because he's a cut character who was pretty cool. That's not FE popularity, that is Smash popularity. The amount of weight you assign to that popularity simply depends on what your criteria for selecting reps is, and unfortunately we cannot peer into the mind of Sakurai in this regard.

More people certainly would have wanted Roy back in Brawl than would have wanted Ike to replace him, but that didn't save Roy then. I see no reason to assume that popularity among the general Smash playerbase will prove any more effective this time around.

You could say the same thing about Mewtwo. And my point still stands: if Lyn's game were so "important", why did it barely get any more than other FE games?

Yes, I would expect that Roy and Mewtwo were cut for similar reasons. Not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm not suggesting that FE7 should have gotten a character, just that it's a more important game within the franchise than FE6, and for what it's worth Brawl does reflect this.

We could speculate all day on what Sakurai could do. He could not include any new FE characters and stick with Marth/Ike. He could make Navarre the next playable character. you can't just say he could do something without backing up your claim with evidence why he would do that.

Allow me to back up my claim further, then. We know that popularity matters a good deal when it comes to selecting Smash reps. We know that in at least one Smash game, and most likely two, promotion options weighed in the consideration of which FE lord to include. We know that Awakening is both massively popular and a recent release, which offers excellent chances for cross-promotion. I'd also point out that you haven't really backed up your claim as to why Sakurai simply would not pick an Awakening rep over Roy. I think he could pick either, though I find Roy to be less likely.

Again, the final choice lies with Sakurai. If he doesn't find whoever IS suggest to be interesting, he won't add them. Simple as that.

Absolutely.

No he wasn't, because that wasn't the reason he was included. He was included because he was the best option for what Sakurai was looking for..

Pretty sure I've seen a source which indicates that promotion was at least part of the reason, but I'll have to dig that up later. I'll give you this one for now. Whatever reasons he included Roy for don't change the fact that he still was a "flavor of the month" character, though, especially since he hailed from an unreleased game whose quality was unknown.

We do?

You didn't read that interview where he talks about his interactions with Game Freak as he chooses Pokemon reps? You should. It's interesting stuff.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

As I've said, he's wanted because people have a moveset, playstyle, and a familiarity in mind for him that other newcomers don't. It's like if you were to have a short film contests, but newcomers can only bring in a short film script, but Roy gets to bring an entire 15 minute movie and got funding from his film school.It doesn't really make sense to put him a poll with newcomers. It makes more sense for him in to be a poll with Smash Veterans.

The poll I mentioned actually does have a section for veterans, Roy just happened to have been placed in the newcomers section. Somehow I doubt his vote counts would have magically changed if he had been categorized differently.

Because he's a cut character who was pretty cool. That's not FE popularity, that is Smash popularity. The amount of weight you assign to that popularity simply depends on what your criteria for selecting reps is, and unfortunately we cannot peer into the mind of Sakurai in this regard.

Again, who are you to say "the popularity of X character doesn't count because some of those people haven't played his game" or "some other people don't like him"?

 

[•Col•]

If you're arguing that we should pick a FE rep based on straight popularity, then Roy still doesn't get in. Other lords (and not just Awakening reps) are significantly more popular than he is, and that's with Roy's added popularity from Smash bolstering him.

If this were at all true, Roy wouldn't be crushing in the character poll here on Smashboards..

Except where that popularity comes from does matter if we are selecting characters to represent their series. Other people may feel differently, but I think that reps should be chosen based on how well they represent the series that they come from.

Even if we go by selecting from the series, Roy is the most popular character from FE6.. And FE6 is one of the more highly regarded FE titles by the Japanese.

Well, Lyn was in the final product while Roy was cut completely, wasn't she? Sakurai could have made Roy an assist trophy, but he didn't.

That kinda just shows Sakurai didn't consider her an actual contender to be in the roster.

Why not? Sakurai clearly has no fierce personal attachment to Roy, or he would not have cut him from Brawl to begin with. Sakurai could easily decide to bring back Roy, but he could also easily decide to follow his traditional picking practices and go with the latest popular FE Lord.

He did have a kind of connection to Roy and his design. It's the reason he decided to put Roy in Melee to begin with. Anyway, I don't see Sakurai largely choosing FE reps based on IS suggestions next time around.

I don't think that IS would suggest Lyn based on my own criteria either. They would suggest an Awakening rep. That said, she is still a more likely suggestion from IS than Roy. Unless they have a new game with him planned, IS does not stand to benefit from promoting Roy. They do stand to benefit from promoting an Awakening rep or, failing that, one of the other internationally available Lords.

They honestly don't stand to gain anything from having an Awakening rep in Smash 4 either. Just like how they didn't benefit from Ike being in Brawl.. Because his games had already been released for over a year by the time Brawl was released.

Roy was absolutely a "flavor of the month" addition at the time of Melee. He would not have been at the time of Brawl, of course. My point is just that arguing against characters based on "flavor of the month" is silly as it's a criteria for inclusion with some weight behind it, and inclusion in Smash will make pretty much any character lastingly popular.

I would say 'flavor of the month' argument holds SOME weight.. Only because otherwise we'd be adding the newest Pokemon rep in each Smash game.

EDIT: I'm way behind in this argument..... I'm too busy right now, so I'm just gonna bail out. :|

 

[Robert of Normandy]

EDIT: I'm way behind in this argument..... I'm too busy right now, so I'm just gonna bail out. :|

Don't worry, you aren't missing much. Just the same garbage about some fans not liking FE6, "relevance", "importance", sales figures, and Chrom/Lucina bandwagoning.

 

[jaytalks]

The poll I mentioned actually does have a section for veterans, Roy just happened to have been placed in the newcomers section. Somehow I doubt his vote counts would have magically changed if he had been categorized differently.

Again, who are you to say "the popularity of X character doesn't count because some of those people haven't played his game" or "some other people don't like him"?

If this were at all true, Roy wouldn't be crushing in the character poll here on Smashboards.."
That kinda just shows Sakurai didn't consider her an actual contender to be in the roster.
They honestly don't stand to gain anything from having an Awakening rep in Smash 4 either. Just like how they didn't benefit from Ike being in Brawl.. Because his games had already been released for over a year by the time Brawl was released.

Don't worry, you aren't missing much. Just the same garbage about some fans not liking FE6, "relevance", "importance", sales figures, and Chrom/Lucina bandwagoning.

Yes, but his popularity should be judged in relation to veterans, not newcomers.
He's not popular amongst FE fanbase as a whole. The polls on smashboards don't consist solely of FE fans. They are smash fans.
And there is a financial incentive for Nintendo to put an Awakening rep in smash. People who enjoyed Awakening will want to buy the game because they want to play as one of its characters. That's Sakurai's first criteria of character inclusion. Smash fans who want Roy will be already buying the game.
It's not about fans not liking FE 6. It's about fans not playing FE6, and therefore aren't able to like it. And I'm arguing for Lucina because I genuinely like the character in her game.

I'm just wondering Shinpichu, by the way. And for any other Roy fans. Have you played FE6? Like an import copy?

Here's that pokemon interview that talks about flavor of the month:
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html
There's also a thread on here but I can't find it.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Yes, but his popularity should be judged in relation to veterans, not newcomers.

Who gives a f*** what it's compared to? The point is, people want him back, and more people seem to want him back than they want any other character.

He's not popular amongst FE fanbase as a whole. The polls on smashboards don't consist solely of FE fans. They are smash fans.

WHO GIVES A **** WHERE HIS POPULARITY COMES FROM.

Also, remember: #of Smash fans > # of FE fans. So yes, the Smash fans opinions should be considered.

And there is a financial incentive for Nintendo to put an Awakening rep in smash. People who enjoyed Awakening will want to buy the game because they want to play as one of its characters. That's Sakurai's first criteria of character inclusion. Smash fans who want Roy will be already buying the game.
It's not about fans not liking FE 6. It's about fans not playing FE6, and therefore aren't able to like it. And I'm arguing for Lucina because I genuinely like the character in her game.

Ike's inclusion if Brawl didn't exactly improve the sales performance of FE9 or 10. There's no evidence it would do anything different for Awakening, especially if Smash fans don't find Chrom intersting.

I'm just wondering Shinpichu, by the way. And for any other Roy fans. Have you played FE6? Like an import copy?

I've played a bit of it, and honestly I don't thinks it's honestly that terrible.

Here's that pokemon interview that talks about flavor of the month:
http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html
There's also a thread on here but I can't find it.

"But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."

Sakurai doesn't just say "oh, this character is new, therefore I will add them." If the character isn't unique or interesting he won't bother.

Edit: Anyway, In non-Roy related news I finally ordered a copy of FE9. Should be here by Thursday, can't wait to play it. It'd better be worth it, too, I got my credit card account locked because of it.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Who gives a f*** what it's compared to? The point is, people want him back, and more people seem to want him back than they want any other character.

Everyone doesn't want Roy, people want chrom too. Its not one sided even if you bank off of popularity and..

THIS. IS. NOT. A. POPULARITY. CONTEST.

WHO GIVES A **** WHERE HIS POPULARITY COMES FROM.

We do for one. And as a developer Sakurai probably does too.

Also, remember: #of Smash fans > # of FE fans. So yes, the Smash fans opinions should be considered.

Smash fans aren't going to buy the game because of FE. FE fans are going to buy the game because of FE.
Plus its a logically flawed method. Newcomers have support because fans of the source game want them to. Without them there would be no support for newcomers.

 

[FlareHabanero]

So wait, it is a popularity contest but at the same time it's not a popularity contest?

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Everyone doesn't want Roy, people want chrom too. Its not one sided even if you bank off of popularity and..

THIS. IS. NOT. A. POPULARITY. CONTEST.

Funny, considering that jaytalks was the one who brought up popularity in the first place. Though I agree, characters should in on merits other than just popularity.

We do for one. And as a developer Sakurai probably does too.

[citation needed]. At this point you're just projecting your own opinion on to Sakurai.

Smash fans aren't going to buy the game because of FE. FE fans are going to buy the game because of FE.

Then what's the point of putting a character in for advertising.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

So wait, it is a popularity contest but at the same time it's not a popularity contest?

Never said that. You're getting confused. How likeable a character is is one factor, but that's not the same as popularity. Lets say hector is the most likeable lord (just an example). He can still lose to Roy in a popularity contest simply because they don't know who Hector is but they do know who roy is.

 

[kikaru]

I'm just wondering Shinpichu, by the way. And for any other Roy fans. Have you played FE6? Like an import copy?

In my opinion FE6 missed the mark in terms of balancing as I felt that Axe wielders and Anima magic were heavily gimped compared to Fire Emblem 7. The overall story felt less engaging in comparison to Fire Emblem 7, and Roy wasn't the most colorful Lord in terms of personality, but all the GBA Fire Emblem games did have a certain charm (Especially with sprite animations and sound effects) that most Fire Emblem games just can't compare.

With this being said Roy was and is still one of my favorite Smash characters, but all biases aside I do appreciate Ike a lot because he brought in a more diverse playstyle than Roy did in Melee. Most importantly I just want Fire Emblem to have three characters, whether it be Roy, Chrom, Lyn, Anna, My Unit, etc.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Funny, considering that jaytalks was the one who brought up popularity in the first place. Though I agree, characters should in on merits other than just popularity.

Read my last example. The Hardcore FE fanbase is a good place to determine how likable a character is because they know who everyone is. Smash fans who don't play FE, not so much.

[citation needed]. At this point you're just projecting your own opinion on to Sakurai.

There's no evidence that he doesn't either. How about we both just drop that point then?

Then what's the point of putting a character in for advertising.

"the game" is supposed to refer to smash.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

WAIT A SECOND. STOP EVERYTHING.

YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO THIS:

Spoiler

 

[jaytalks]

Who gives a f*** what it's compared to? The point is, people want him back, and more people seem to want him back than they want any other character.

WHO GIVES A **** WHERE HIS POPULARITY COMES FROM.

Also, remember: #of Smash fans > # of FE fans. So yes, the Smash fans opinions should be considered.

Ike's inclusion if Brawl didn't exactly improve the sales performance of FE9 or 10. There's no evidence it would do anything different for Awakening, especially if Smash fans don't find Chrom intersting.

I've played a bit of it, and honestly I don't thinks it's honestly that terrible.

Funny, considering that jaytalks was the one who brought up popularity in the first place. Though I agree, characters should in on merits other than just popularity.

[citation needed]. At this point you're just projecting your own opinion on to Sakurai.

Then what's the point of putting a character in for advertising.

I've never understood why people bleep themselves out on forums. You might as well just use another word.
In a newcomer discussion, it matters because Roy isn't a newcomer. Because people want Roy back. Just like people want Ike, Mewtwo, and Lucario back. People want to play as Lucina, Lyn, and Ridley for the first time in Smash. His popularity matters because his inclusion shouldn't be based on Smash. His own appearance in his game should be the reason he appears, because that would sell copies of Smash, Sakurai's first criteria. If you are a Smash fan, you are already getting Smash 4 if you have the system or resources.

Smash fans outnumber FE fans, but Smash fans will probably get the game regardless. If you include a character from the series most recent release, it increases the chance FE fans will try out Smash. FE is a strategy RPG game, so it's not like fans of the series will necessarily play the Smash series. But if they have one of their favorite characters in the game, there's a chance they will try it.

People look at the sales aspect for character inclusion in the wrong direction. Ike is supposed to sell Brawl, not the other way around. To be sure, it can also go the other way, as that how we have 6 FE games worldwide instead of zero, but the reason Sakurai includes characters because he wants to sell the game. That's his first criteria.

Popularity matters because it sells games. Popular characters sell games. It matters because it affects Sakurai's criteria. But it's one that's hard to judge because of how polls work. When I initially brought it up, I meant Roy has decreased in popularity and relevance. We use importance, popularity, and relevance to discuss characters because it something outside of our own personal preferences we can discuss. It may not matter to Sakurai in the same way it does to us, but I use it to rationalize Sakurai's criteria.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

I've never understood why people bleep themselves out on forums. You might as well just use another word.

Smashboards has an auto-filter. Doesn't mean I'm going to censor myself. I'm going the talk the way I want to talk. Don't be a f*cking prude.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Importance? Like Sheik, Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, Young Link...
Popularity? Like R.O.B, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, Wii Fit Trainer...
Relevence? Like [insert old school character here], Jigglypuff, Sheik, Star Fox characters, Captain Falcon...

 

[jaytalks]

Importance? Like Sheik, Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, Young Link...
Popularity? Like R.O.B, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, Wii Fit Trainer...
Relevence? Like [insert old school character here], Jigglypuff, Sheik, Star Fox characters, Captain Falcon...

Popularity, importance, and relevance factor differently with different characters in different series. Just like all the other factors that goes into character inclusion. These are all just one factor in a multitude of factors. Popularity, importance, and relevance matter more in relation to being a representative for series. It's why we won't see Alm, Tharja, or Bartre in Smash. We differ where the lords and other main characters stand in relation to this, but that often comes down which data you use and personal preference.
And the Wii Fit Trainer's game is popular. Her first game sold 20 million copies.

Smashboards has an auto-filter. Doesn't mean I'm going to censor myself. I'm going the talk the way I want to talk. Don't be a f*cking prude.

No I was just wondering why people do it. No disrespect intended.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

And the Wii Fit Trainer is popular. Her game sold 20 million copies.

What do you bet none of the people who bought those give even 1/4 of a $h!t that she made it into Smash 4? Popularity in general does not translate into people wanting them in Smash.

 

[FlareHabanero]

And the Wii Fit Trainer's game is popular. Her first game sold 20 million copies.

Did anyone even realize the character existed before the Super Smash Bros. reveal?

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Sakurai looks for potential. In Wii Fit Trainer's case, Sakurai saw the potential to be a unique, interesting, like-able character who is relevant to the franchise she represents.

 

[kikaru]

Probably the millions of people who actually use Wii Fit, but I doubt many of them are avid Smash fans.

Edit: I volunteered at our local hospital and they use Wii Fit as an activity for some of the older patrons at the nursing home as well as for rehabilitation purposes in the main hospital/clinic. So I'd like to think there are people out there who are somewhat acquainted with the trainer.

 

[jaytalks]

What do you bet none of the people who bought those give even 1/4 of a $h!t that she made it into Smash 4? Popularity in general does not translate into people wanting them in Smash.

Wii Fit and other Wii titles brought a lot of different people to gaming. New fans who now can become Nintendo fans. Nintendo fans who can become Smash fans. That is part of what warrants her inclusion. And like I said, it's just one factor that you weigh against other factors, pun intended. I will defend WFT as the WTF character, but that's for another thread.

I don't want to get off track, so the point is that popularity, relevance, and importance matter in relation to a series. That's why we are discussing Roy, Lucina, and Lyn on the Fire Emblem Thread, rather discussing ROB in the Gyromite thread.

If Roy is unpopular, unknown, or unplayable amongst the FE fanbase, that might work against him in regards to his inclusion. But there must be other factors that work towards his inclusion.

 

[FalKoopa]

Sakurai looks for potential.

Isn't that the reason Sakurai chose Roy in the first place though?