You get no Sympathy in a "Fire Emblem Discussion"

[Roy-Kun]

Aaaaand with today's reveal I see Robin's chances have skyrocketed. At least to me. Also the idea to have Lucina as an Alt. Costume for Marth doesn't seem so bad now.

So, Robin and Chrom for SSB4, right?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Lucina as alt. costume? Sure! That pretty much fits well!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No...

No it doesn't....

Marth and Lucina are two completely different characters with completely different backstories, personalities, etc. They wouldn't work well as an alternate costume.

It would be like a Roy costume for Marth. It just doesn't work.

 

[loganhogan]

Crazy idea

Marth has Lucina as a palette
Ike has Chrom as a palette
The third character they add is either Robin, Anna or Roy.


everyone happy?

 

[BluePikmin11]

Anna please if Chrom ends up as a pallette.

 

[loganhogan]

Anna please if Chrom ends up as a pallette.

Yes please

 

[---]

No...

No it doesn't....

Marth and Lucina are two completely different characters with completely different backstories, personalities, etc. They wouldn't work well as an alternate costume.

It would be like a Roy costume for Marth. It just doesn't work.

Sorry but I gotta disagree with you on this Swampasaur. Design wise Lucina's more or less a gendered swap version of Marth, and now that it's confirmed that slightly more drastic alts can happen I think that it's more likely than ever we'll see some sort of reference to her in Marth's alt/alt colors. Even before today's Miiverse post, she was likely to have been an alternate due to her "Marth?" mask.

That said I will admit that unlike Male/Female WFTs and Villagers (a very easy bet now), Lucina is her own character, so who knows.


Personally though, I don't have a problem if Sakurai & IS decide to make her an alt of Marth so long as they give her her own voice actor, etc.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

Personally though, I don't have a problem if Sakurai & IS decide to make her an alt of Marth so long as they give her her own voice actor, etc.

Other than the fact that it will confuse the hell out of everyone.

Can you imagine what crazy assumptions people would make if that were in the game?
Marth's Sister? Wife? Daughter? Or maybe its just a younger marth whose voice hasn't dropped?

But in all honesty, I think Swampasaur is on to the right idea. I don't think the alt costume is going to be available unless the costumes are of the same character. I think it will only be for character who have real gender swapped versions of themselves like pokemon trainer, villager and robin.

 

[---]

Other than the fact that it will confuse the hell out of everyone.

Can you imagine what crazy assumptions people would make if that were in the game?
Marth's Sister? Wife? Daughter? Or maybe its just a younger marth whose voice hasn't dropped?

But in all honesty, I think Swampasaur is on to the right idea. I don't think the alt costume is going to be available unless the costumes are of the same character. I think it will only be for character who have real gender swapped versions of themselves like pokemon trainer, villager and robin.

Alternate costumes are a messy issue, and is one of the reasons I fully expect the ugliness of FE talk will only get uglier. My only point is that Lucina has a much larger potential for being an alternate costume than before because of what we know now.

Also to be fair those "crazy assumptions" could be solved with a trophy. Not like they mattered to begin with due to all the "Martha" jokes and Lucina's design in general.

That said, IMO Marth getting Lucina's "Marth?" mask as an alternate color is nearly guaranteed.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I don't give a **** if they're different characters. Their backstories don't change their gameplay. It is irrelevant.

 

[jaytalks]

Sakurai has outright deconfirmed alternate costumes of existing characters for other characters.

Crazy idea

Marth has Lucina as a palette
Ike has Chrom as a palette
The third character they add is either Robin, Anna or Roy.


everyone happy?

Alternate costumes won't make any Awakening fans happy. It's the same reason why you wouldn't make a Roy alternate costume for Marth. Chrom and Ike also happen to be very different, without having to say too much.

On Lucina being similar to Marth:
Marth was redesigned to look similar to Lucina for the sake of Awakening, just like the other DLC lords and main characters were designed to be certain classes within Awakening rather than their actual class. All the lords in Awakening are just made with the Avatar options of hair and body type.

Alternate costumes of this nature were always possible, considering Wario from Brawl. I can't imagine them not giving Wario his two costumes. What's new is they are expanding to other characters who share the same name. Wii Fit Trainer makes sense because they are both the same character.

I think Sakurai rightly assumes doing alternate full different character would open a pandora's box of demands, because he would have a huge demand for alternate character costumes, taking away the focus on the gameplay. The premise behind adding any character has always been associated to gameplay, and alternate character costumes would ruin that line of thinking.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sakurai has outright deconfirmed alternate costumes of existing characters for other characters.

 

[Jaedrik]

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG. Just got laid the SMACK down. (leljk)
Let me anticipate his response by playing Devil's Advocate, as I have no stock in either side. Those are the same character, just different sexes of said character.

 

[jaytalks]

Clearly the Lucina/Marth conversation started with today's pic. But Monk4 has the right response. I've already commented on the pic on a separate thread.

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANG. Just got laid the SMACK down. (leljk)
Let me anticipate his response by playing Devil's Advocate, as I have no stock in either side. Those are the same character, just different sexes of said character.

Yes. That's my response . They are both named Wii Fit Trainer, similar to how the Villager could be both the male and female villager.

Remember, Wii Fit Trainer's name is Wii Fit Trainer, not Female Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I would be fine with a Pachirisu costume for Pikachu. And a Raichu costume, and whatever if there are others. I cannot fathom how people would get pissed if their wanted character is incredibly similar to an existing character and gets in as a costume of that character. As far as taking away time from gameplay, somehow I doubt character modeling takes that long or is even done by the same people who handle gameplay.

 

[jaytalks]

I would be fine with a Pachirisu costume for Pikachu. And a Raichu costume, and whatever if there are others. I cannot fathom how people would get pissed if their wanted character is incredibly similar to an existing character and gets in as a costume of that character. As far as taking away time from gameplay, somehow I doubt character modeling takes that long or is even done by the same people who handle gameplay.

I would say people wouldn't settle for the costume knowing that their is an option for the character to be an original character. Of course, people would probably settle, but that's not what they are advocating for.

Not taking away time from gameplay. It would take the focus away from gameplay, in terms of what fans care about it. Sakurai doesn't want fans to focus on characters over gameplay. If you do for one "similar" character, where does it stop? That's why the imposed limit from Brawl (being the same character as Wario is and Wii Fit Trainer technical is) makes sense. Of course, he could always change his mind.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Alternate costumes won't make any Awakening fans happy.

Good, those little ****s need to learn that life is not all rainbows and lollipops.

 

[jaytalks]

Good, those little ****s need to learn that life is not all rainbows and lollipops.

well, I mean people arent advocating on those character threads for the characters in question to be alternate costumes. It would hardly please any of them, although they would settle for it rather than not have the character in some regard.

and in honor of Halloween, because it's apparently the FE fanbase's go-to candy:

So life may not be all rainbows and lollipops, but its definitely filled with skittles.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I would say people wouldn't settle for the costume knowing that their is an option for the character to be an original character. Of course, people would probably settle, but that's not what they are advocating for.

Not taking away time from gameplay. It would take the focus away from gameplay, in terms of what fans care about it. Sakurai doesn't want fans to focus on characters over gameplay. If you do for one "similar" character, where does it stop? That's why the imposed limit from Brawl (being the same character as Wario is and Wii Fit Trainer technical is) makes sense. Of course, he could always change his mind.

If they would settle for it, then they're not really against it.

And why should it ever stop? Why shouldn't we get DLC for all characters who use basically the same moveset?

 

[IsmaR]

You get no Fire Emblem in a sympathy discussion.

I'd personally prefer Marth get his classic and Awakening designs as separate alts than for him to get a wig.

 

[jaytalks]

If they would settle for it, then they're not really against it.

And why should it ever stop? Why shouldn't we get DLC for all characters who use basically the same moveset?

The same can be said for any (similar) character. By settle for it I mean they will play as them if they have the means (like it's not DLC) or they don't like another character better. Dixie fans would probably play as Dixie costumed Diddy Kong. It's liking getting free food when you're not that hungry. You say no, but you will probably save it for later. You can still be against something but settle for the outcome, since our opposition has no effect to what Sakurai does or what appears in game.

I'm just stating what I think is Sakurai's mindset from what I've read. But he specifically said it does diminish the specialty of having separate characters. From an artist's or designer's point of view, I can see why being so strongly influenced by the game's fanbase can seem unappealing. I would prefer to have autonomy in my decision. I really do believe Sakurai is against the character based focus on the games.

On another level, I prefer no DLC in most cases. With costumes, it's usually a rip off to me because I know how it easy is to make a new skin.

But why should it ever stop? Well, to quote my favorite angry habanero sauce:

Good, those little ****s need to learn that life is not all rainbows and lollipops.

of course, I wouldn't say those little ****s, or whatever he said, towards you.
in all seriousness, to quote someone else:
"You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need"
I don't think an unlimited amount of alternate costume really adds to the game in terms of gameplay, which should be the designer's main focus. Charging money for that type of content would make me a little worried, since that's the path that Capcom was on for the past few years. But just because a game designer can do something, doesn't mean he or she really needs to.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I play smash so that I can play as my favorite characters. That is the entire point of a mascot fighting game.

Also, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like your argument against a continuous stream of DLC to satisfy the customers (let's focus on that for a second. No one is forcing you to buy DLC. If it's free DLC, no one is forcing you to download it. So why should others suffer for some kind of principle of yours?) is that people should get used to not getting what they want. If that's the case, your argument is so absurd that I feel it would be a waste of my time to even refute it.

 

[loganhogan]

Is Wii Fit Trainer transvestite? In wii fit I was under the impression each trainer was their own character.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Is Wii Fit Trainer transvestite? In wii fit I was under the impression each trainer was their own character.

They are and they aren't...

There is quite literally no difference other than gender. The same applies to Villager and arguably Pokemon Trainer.

Marth and Lucina have a ton of differences between the two. Much more so than the examples I listed above.

 

[jaytalks]

I play smash so that I can play as my favorite characters. That is the entire point of a mascot fighting game.

Also, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but it looks like your argument against a continuous stream of DLC to satisfy the customers (let's focus on that for a second. No one is forcing you to buy DLC. If it's free DLC, no one is forcing you to download it. So why should others suffer for some kind of principle of yours?) is that people should get used to not getting what they want. If that's the case, your argument is so absurd that I feel it would be a waste of my time to even refute it.

The point in developing any fighting game is to make the best game possible. Alternate costumes are nice, but not necessary for the game. And again, I'm arguing from what I think is Sakurai's point of view, not my own. I will download all costume DLC if its free of course.

It's funny. I continually have the same discussions on Serenes Forest regarding FE13's DLC, but I take the opposite side I'm on right now. I don't have anything against other people buying DLC. I probably will only buy maybe the ones I like if any at all in this case. But in all cases, DLC isn't necessary for development, aside from a patch or something like that. That's why it's DLC and not on the disk or inital download. On an economic level, customers don't need to be satisfied because they already made the initial purchase (buying the SSB4 game), which is the main source of profit. Developing after the game is done for free DLC makes no sense for the developers because it requires extra development costs (no matter how miniscule) that they (or the publisher) get no profit from. It's nice when they do it (like with FE13's bonus chapters), but I won't hold anything against a developer that doesn't offer DLC.

I can't argue why paid DLC should stop other than the fact the game creators don't have to make it. They are easy to make and a quick cash grab. But I can understand a principled stance of a game creator not want to make certain DLC. A game creator doesn't need to create the DLC. It's developer's vision and if you don't like it, don't buy the game. That's the only way for a fan to really make their voice heard. But it doesn't really make sense to not buy a game for the developer not offering DLC you have to pay for.

Is Wii Fit Trainer transvestite? In wii fit I was under the impression each trainer was their own character.

The key thing is that they share the same name for me. They are both equally Wii Fit Trainer, just like a female AC main character would equally be the Villager, or a female Pokemon Trainer would still be Pokemon Trainer. In all those cases, those are all separate characters within the context of their game, but not in the naming via smash. So it's not another character inhabiting the role, in the case of Lucina as Marth. Since upon release Hii Fit Trainer and Shii Fit Trainer will equally be playable presumably, they both would share the title of Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[kikaru]

Sorry but I gotta disagree with you on this Swampasaur. Design wise Lucina's more or less a gendered swap version of Marth, and now that it's confirmed that slightly more drastic alts can happen I think that it's more likely than ever we'll see some sort of reference to her in Marth's alt/alt colors. Even before today's Miiverse post, she was likely to have been an alternate due to her "Marth?" mask.

That said I will admit that unlike Male/Female WFTs and Villagers (a very easy bet now), Lucina is her own character, so who knows.


Personally though, I don't have a problem if Sakurai & IS decide to make her an alt of Marth so long as they give her her own voice actor, etc.

I can certainly understand having Male Wii Fit Trainer, Female Villager and Pokemon Trainer, as well as Male/Female MU from Awakening, but it seems like having separate characters share the same slot becayse they're similar in shape and size is a cheap method to introduce characters into the game, I suppose having Lucina and Marth can be seen as 'better' than simply having Marth but I don't think Sakurai's vision of creating the best game possible would resort to throwing characters in willy nilly because they fit some gender-swapped niche or they fit an already existing character's body shape this time around. Sure that worked for some characters like Ganondorf and Jigglypuff in the past but this is an entirely different game and appears to focus more on quality than quantity.

And I suppose that brings a point that if Lucina-Marth is considered acceptable then where do we draw the line, should we advocate for Daisy and Peach sharing a slot or perhaps Roy and Marth because they all have similar body shape?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Sakurai's vision of creating the best game possible

The best game possible would have all the characters everyone wants.

should we advocate for Daisy and Peach sharing a slot

Yes.

 

[kikaru]

The best game possible would have all the characters everyone wants.

Yes.

Smash would lose meaning and characters would lose diversity and uniqueness if all of a sudden the roster is diluted with characters that aren't even considered Nintendo All Stars. If we got characters everybody wanted we'd be seeing the likes of Goku, Master Chief, Kratos, and Barack Obama.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Presumably they would still have to originate in a video game and have appeared on a Nintendo console.

 

[jaytalks]

The best game possible would have all the characters everyone wants.

Yes.

The best game possible would be the game that plays best and has the most balance. More or less alternate character costumes would have nothing to do with that. More characters could add to that if done properly, but spreading yourself thin as a developer would hurt the project, so too many could hurt the project.

Smash would lose meaning and characters would lose diversity and uniqueness if all of a sudden the roster is diluted with characters that aren't even considered Nintendo All Stars. If we got characters everybody wanted we'd be seeing the likes of Goku, Master Chief, Kratos, and Barack Obama.

You don't even need to take it to fourth party characters. Nephenee, awesome character, not a Nintendo All Star. Kiddy Kong, awesome character, not a Nintendo All Star. Gengar, great pocket monster, not a Nintendo All Star.

Here's Sakurai's words on the subject:
"It isn’t a matter of ‘if the next game has 50 characters, that’ll be enough.’ There is a certain charm to games that have huge casts of playable characters, but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive…. In terms of quantity, we’ve probably already reached the limit of what’s feasible. I think a change of direction may be what’s needed.”

 

[FlareHabanero]

should we advocate for Daisy and Peach sharing a slot

Apparently Super Smash Bros. Melee and Super Smash Bros. Brawl never happened.

 

[kikaru]

Apparently Super Smash Bros. Melee and Super Smash Bros. Brawl never happened.

Don't remember Daisy being a playable character, all I remember is Peach stealing Daisy's sense of fashion.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Don't remember Daisy being a playable character, all I remember is Peach stealing Daisy's sense of fashion.

Same thing basically.

 

[Roy-Kun]

I should have known there would be some people complaining about this.

Oh well, Robin it is. Let's forget about the rest, and keep Marth.

 

[IsmaR]

So basically Daisy's voice? What sick twisted game are you playing?

 

[kikaru]

Or just some official recognition, we got 39 characters in Brawl and Daisy wasn't one of them. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the fact that we got Male Wii Fit Trainer and will be pleased if/when we get Female Villager and Pokemon Trainer but if you're going to add characters or force them into slots with other characters simply for the sake of buffing the roster number I think it takes away from both the character whose slot your invading and the character who you're squeezing in.

But then again who am I to say that Male Wii Fit Trainer isn't going to play differently than his female counterpart so it might be possible to see something like Lucina and Marth sharing the same spot with slight gameplay differences.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I should have known there would be some people complaining about this.

I don't understand why any human would be complaining something as basic as Marth having an alternate costume inspired by Lucina. Which isn't even weird in the slightest considering that's what Marth's redesign in Awakening basically is.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The best game possible would be the game that plays best and has the most balance. More or less alternate character costumes would have nothing to do with that.

Matter of opinion.

More characters could add to that if done properly, but spreading yourself thin as a developer would hurt the project, so too many could hurt the project.

I thought we already went over whether or not alternate costumes would take a lot, if any, time from the gameplay work. It sounded like you ceded that it would not. Do you mean something else by "spreading yourself thin" here?

but they tend to have issues with game balance and it becomes very difficult to fine-tune each character and have them all feel distinctive

He said it's difficult, not impossible. That's a really arbitrary argument to make - I could just as easily say, "36 characters is too hard to balance and make them all feel distinctive, so we shouldn't have that many." In fact, Brawl's roster is unbalanced, and there are clones that don't feel distinctive. Do you see why this is not a good argument against having lots of characters? It is only an argument that it makes developing the game more difficult or time-consuming, not that there's anything bad about a large roster in of itself.

 

[Mono.]

since they're not going to spoil anything, I can see masked lucina being the alternate costume for marth

 

[jaytalks]

Matter of opinion.

Well yeah. It was in response to this after all:

The best game possible would have all the characters everyone wants.

You could say the same thing to that. I do think that gameplay is more important than characters in creating the best game. Playstation ASBR focused on the characters, and now that franchise is dead.

I thought we already went over whether or not alternate costumes would take a lot, if any, time from the gameplay work. It sounded like you ceded that it would not.

Talking about characters, not character costumes. Hence I didn't say alternate costumes. I never said costumes would take significant development or anything of the sort, so there was nothing to ceded. I was talking about them taking away focus (to be more clear, in terms of the fan response), not development time.

Do you mean something else by "spreading yourself thin" here?He said it's difficult, not impossible. That's a really arbitrary argument to make - I could just as easily say, "36 characters is too hard to balance and make them all feel distinctive, so we shouldn't have that many." In fact, Brawl's roster is unbalanced, and there are clones that don't feel distinctive. Do you see why this is not a good argument against having lots of characters? It is only an argument that it makes developing the game more difficult or time-consuming, not that there's anything bad about a large roster in of itself.

"Spreading yourself thin" includes other things besides characters such as Brawl's SSE mode. He dropped it because it took too much development time or whatnot and impacted the characters. I'm just taking the guy at his word and restating what he said. That's why I quoted him up there. You can choose not to believe him; it won't change the amount of characters we have in the game. I do think larger amount of character make it more difficult. Developer's have a finite amount of time based on how much time the publisher gives them. He says he wants less characters so he can better balance them basically, given the time he has before he releases. That's his choice, vision, and projections as a developer; its his game.

The thing is, the whole argument against a lot of characters is embedded in fighting game history. What's the last fighting game to have 35 characters (we'll go by slots in Brawl) and be strongly balanced? I really don't know of any. What's the last really balanced fighting game? Virtua Fighter 5 or Persona 4 Arena? We have maybe 20 characters for VF5 and 15 for Persona 4 Arena. Capcom has been trying to balance Street Fighter 4 for years (along with all their new character additions). There isnt really a model for balancing that many characters, not to mention other fighters are essentially building on the same formula and still havent gotten it. 2D fighters all stem from SF2, 3D fighters stem from VF, and the Vs Series stems from X-Men vs Street Fighter. They are building off the work of multiple developers and teams over the last 20 years and they still haven't perfected. Smash is the single successful series entry in battle royal fighting game genre. So it's really only coming from one source in terms of development.

Again, I keep saying it but I'll put it more clearly. I'm not trying to "win" or even have an argument. I'm just stating what I think Sakurai's opinion/line of thinking, and thus the unlikelihood of what you're suggesting. Of course I would love to have all my wanted characters in the game, and that would probably exceed Sakurai's "limit" for characters. But that's not going to happen, and in terms of my (limited) understanding of game development, it doesn't make sense to have such high expectations for any developer.

To go back to the original topic, alternate costumes do not affect gameplay in any serious way. Gameplay is what drives sales most for any game, and it's what the developer has the most control over. Alternate costumes aren't desirable because they are lower than the lowliest of clones. I think there is merit in a creator not taking the quick cash grab of alternate costumes. It might cost them a quick buck, but there is something to be said about integrity against the "easy" DLC based culture of gaming we live in. People don't buy fighting games for alternate costumes, so if I wouldn't worry about them if I was Sakurai.