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Q&A You Found the Hint Glasses! - Q&A and FAQ

Elessar

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Q.Which is more useful Ftilt or Dtilt?
It depends on the situation but I'd say Ftilt beats dtilt 95% of times. Seriously though, it's highly situation dependent. You can't just say one is better than the other in such a broad ways.

Q. Best follow-up after a bomb connects?
Again, it depends on a lot of things. How was the opponent launched, his %, where are you in the stage. There is no one answer.

Q. Any top notch Link players I should check out?
Kirin.
 

Linkmario00

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It depends on the situation but I'd say Ftilt beats dtilt 95% of times. Seriously though, it's highly situation dependent. You can't just say one is better than the other in such a broad ways.



Again, it depends on a lot of things. How was the opponent launched, his %, where are you in the stage. There is no one answer.



Kirin.
I think he should check out Izaw, too. I just found him better.
 

Linkmario00

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Warning Received
It depends on the situation but I'd say Ftilt beats dtilt 95% of times. Seriously though, it's highly situation dependent. You can't just say one is better than the other in such a broad ways.



Again, it depends on a lot of things. How was the opponent launched, his %, where are you in the stage. There is no one answer.



Kirin.
I think he should check out Izaw, too. I just found him better.
 

Dumbfire

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Q. Any top notch Link players I should check out?
If there's a video of Link in Smash 4 on Youtube, I've most likely seen it, and I lament to say we lack real quality footage. KirinBlaze is the only player we can really name as an uncontested top Link but we only have four sets of him (a beautiful set against Chibo early in the game, two sets at apex, against Dj Relly's Sonic and against Player_1's Diddy, and a recent one against a Charizard/R.O.B.). Ninjalink's early game against a Villager is great. Many more promising Link players we don't have much footage of (BrimeZ only early game, Scizor only one set, Sabacca one very early set, none of Catpuke, none of Cyner, none of Lawz). Lord Xav1er always delivers solidly; K~Man's Link has some smart moves (but last footage of him as 2 months ago); Huggles had a nice grand final set; there's some nice friendlies of Ieven; Izaw's set against J. Miller is a good watch; Afro had a very patient and restrained if amateurish outing at a recent Norwegian tournament.

Once Zane and Blubba get into the tournament scene actively again you can add those to the list, but we're rather short of footage right now, unfortunately. Dutchies have had bad luck with streaming equipment so far but I'll at least make sure Cat saves some friendlies on my Wii U next time -- the more we have the better.
 
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Victor Coelho

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Tap down to let go of the ledge, immediately jump, input Dair.
Itried that and tapping back, jumping and inputing dair but the move takes to long to recover and i don have another jump to get back, even with upB after.. i always die lol... maybe im not doing in the right timing
 

Elessar

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Itried that and tapping back, jumping and inputing dair but the move takes to long to recover and i don have another jump to get back, even with upB after.. i always die lol... maybe im not doing in the right timing
Your timing is probably right. The only reason why Izaw didn't die there is because he hit Haze and used the bounce to land on the stage. If he had missed Haze he would've probably died since the timing window to do that and now die is too strict and it leaves you in a huge disadvantage. This is something that you shouldn't attempt unless you know that you'll hit your opponent.
 

Victor Coelho

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Your timing is probably right. The only reason why Izaw didn't die there is because he hit Haze and used the bounce to land on the stage. If he had missed Haze he would've probably died since the timing window to do that and now die is too strict and it leaves you in a huge disadvantage. This is something that you shouldn't attempt unless you know that you'll hit your opponent.
I'm afraid someone would confirm me this lol... the fact it is risky makes it even more stylish hahahah. Will be careful, thanks for the help guys =)
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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You kidding me? It's totally possible (and not that difficult imo, only, people usually just recover to the ledge unharmed) and he totally would have lived even if he didn't hit CF in that example. Just be quicker. My rule is, if you go to DJ Dair and you end up being lower than the horizontal line of the stage, you messed up. Because of this, it's essentially (though not technically) useless for getting people who want to go for the ledge, but for people who recover like that CF did at 16:28, well sure, go for it.
 
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Dumbfire

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Itried that and tapping back, jumping and inputing dair but the move takes to long to recover and i don have another jump to get back, even with upB after.. i always die lol... maybe im not doing in the right timing
Press left/right to let go of the ledge, not down. If you press down you might die.
 
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epicnights

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Hey, just starting getting into competitive, what can Link do OoS? I'm refining the advanced fundamental skills before going into character specific stuff, so knowing my options when in shield would help a ton.
 

Elessar

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Hey, just starting getting into competitive, what can Link do OoS? I'm refining the advanced fundamental skills before going into character specific stuff, so knowing my options when in shield would help a ton.
The best options for Link OoS would be Toss a bomb, grab, upB and Usmash. However, the usmash and the upB need to be jump canceled for them to work.
 

Paper Maribro

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Hi guys,

After struggling for the MU (got knocked out of a tourney today by Link) for a while and asking all the people from my character boards and still not making any headway, I had a small favour to ask.

Q. How does one play against Link? i.e. The correct spacing, safe approaches, what to punish etc. (I hope this is enough for you guys, I can go into more detail if needed).

I main Pac and Yoshi but I'm starting to think a good grab game is the basis for beating Link as approaching him is so often dangerous due to his projectiles and disjoint but would be slightly negated if I had a fast and not easily punishable grab.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, especially as assisting me will be inadvertently helping me defeat the Hero of Time. I hope after such future battles we can forgive each other over some Lon Lon Milk.
 

Rizen

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@ Paper Maribro Paper Maribro Link fights are very (figurative) momentum based. When Link gets going he can be a pain but Link also can take a lot of damage from a relentless opponent when Link is at a disadvantage. Try not to let Link reset the situation. Link can have trouble KOing an opponent who plays keep away and Yoshi has good tools; if you get a stock lead you can exploit it vs Link.
A good grab game is effective vs Link.
Getting Link offstage makes him vulnerable. Far offstage Link has few options but close to the stage Link can use fake outs and defend himself better.
 

Paper Maribro

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@ Paper Maribro Paper Maribro Link fights are very (figurative) momentum based. When Link gets going he can be a pain but Link also can take a lot of damage from a relentless opponent when Link is at a disadvantage. Try not to let Link reset the situation. Link can have trouble KOing an opponent who plays keep away and Yoshi has good tools; if you get a stock lead you can exploit it vs Link.
A good grab game is effective vs Link.
Getting Link offstage makes him vulnerable. Far offstage Link has few options but close to the stage Link can use fake outs and defend himself better.
I struggled to get in at all and when I was able to avoid all the projectiles I was getting tilted or jabbed or OoS punished. I'm thinking of going back to Mario to fight Link, thoughts?
 

Elessar

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Hi guys,

After struggling for the MU (got knocked out of a tourney today by Link) for a while and asking all the people from my character boards and still not making any headway, I had a small favour to ask.

Q. How does one play against Link? i.e. The correct spacing, safe approaches, what to punish etc. (I hope this is enough for you guys, I can go into more detail if needed).

I main Pac and Yoshi but I'm starting to think a good grab game is the basis for beating Link as approaching him is so often dangerous due to his projectiles and disjoint but would be slightly negated if I had a fast and not easily punishable grab.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, especially as assisting me will be inadvertently helping me defeat the Hero of Time. I hope after such future battles we can forgive each other over some Lon Lon Milk.
This is a tough question to answer, not because the answer is tough, but because it's MU dependant. You don't play a Link with Yoshi the same way you would play him with Pacman. Since we still don't have a MU thread on Yoshi nor Pacman you are free to start either to get more precise information (and you'd be contributing to the boards since we can centralize information). Also, this is a question you might also want to ask those boards to get their input as well (you can find their respective Mu thread in our MU index). That being said, I will try to answer your question as best as I can in a general way.

I agree with Rizen, Link's fights are very momentum based. Also, Link is a character that this time around can be played in two very distinctive ways successfully. A camp/spam with some melee game or a very aggressive frame trap melee game. We thrive on spacing so what you have to do, with either of those chars, is get inside our comfort zone (that would be close quarters or inside our zair range) and go for juggles. This is what wrecks Link on stage, juggles.

Link's recovery this time around is extremely versatile, a fact most people still haven't figured out sadly, so gimping Link isn't as easy (or does't have to be if fighting a decent Link) as it used in brawl. Therefore my advice would be, don't go for a gimp necessarily. Try to KO Link more than gimping, though if you get a clear gimping opportunity, go for it of course.

Hope this help, but as I said, create MU threads or maybe continue this conversation in the MU thread so as to not turn the Q&A into a Mu discussion thread.
 

Zerker

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Q:
How exactly does Z-air's landing lag work?
Does it change depending on the height of where you start it from?
 

Linkmario00

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So, I was trying some Link's techniques in the lab in the last days and I think I have pretty improved my gameplay, learning how to Dash smash, bombslide and dash dancing. Still, I have some questions for you


1)What options does Link have out of a dash dance?

2) What are the application of bombslide? I mean, yes i can up tilt during the slide, but anything else?
 

Elessar

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So, I was trying some Link's techniques in the lab in the last days and I think I have pretty improved my gameplay, learning how to Dash smash, bombslide and dash dancing. Still, I have some questions for you


1)What options does Link have out of a dash dance?

2) What are the application of bombslide? I mean, yes i can up tilt during the slide, but anything else?
1) I don't consider dash dancing with Link a valid strat because Link is already slow and he becomes even chunkier. I'd instead suggest you hop around a lot and spam, and also just run straight at people. You could practice perfect pivoting though to stop instantly and hit people.

2) The uses are to throw a bomb while retreating, to help you toss a bomb higher up to put more pressure, or glide forwards as to not stop your motion and reach the opponent on time to combo out of the explosion.
 

Rizen

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What would you summarize as Link's pros and cons?
Pros
Heavy
Good KO power
very versatile
good melee attack reach
3 projectiles
jab 1 cancel chains into jab 1 after certain %s (but this might be patched out soon)
Good setups for slower KO moves (jab cancel>KO move, bombs)
Good advantaged game
Can KO with several different attacks (U/F/DSmash, U/Ftilt, U/F/Dair, Dash attack, Uthrow after 160-180%)
Hylian shield blocks ranged attacks
Boomerang and arrows can't be absorbed as energy attacks (bombs can)

Cons
Gets juggled a lot
bad grab and followup game
frame data on the slower side
Bad disadvantaged game (chasing down opponents who have the lead, escaping juggles, etc)
Gets outclassed without preparation like having a bomb ready/projectiles onscreen.
Dtilt spike isn't worth going for
laggy moves can be punished hard
No sure way to fight opponents and must improvise instead
Bad mobility
 

Mrawesome48

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How do you approach link? Every match is roll to one side of the stage preceded to spam arrows and boomerang. If i actually manage to reach him. Roll to the other side rinse wash repeat
 

Elessar

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How do you approach link? Every match is roll to one side of the stage preceded to spam arrows and boomerang. If i actually manage to reach him. Roll to the other side rinse wash repeat
Actually the matches you are describing are not representative of the real Link meta. It's simply the way scrubs on FG play. To beat them, depending on your char, just manage to get near them in a way that would make them start rolling and read and punish the roll. That means, learn how far the roll travel and predict where it will stop. You have a couple of frames from the moment it stops until Link can do anything so you get a window to punish. Ideally you'd want to use a long lasting hitbox, maybe dash attack, low floating dair or nair.

Just keep on mind that they will try to run, predict how they will do it or observe their pattern which they will repeat and then simply react I'm beforehand to it and you'll land a punish.
 

Sabaca

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Where do i find / What is the frame data to Links instant z-drops and all kind of bombthrows.
 

Sabaca

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Then i gotta find a way to test it myself! Because i really want to know how fast excactly Links strongest punish and fastest OoS options are :D
 

Elessar

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Then i gotta find a way to test it myself! Because i really want to know how fast excactly Links strongest punish and fastest OoS options are :D
When you do, do share. Thanks.
 

Rizen

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Then i gotta find a way to test it myself! Because i really want to know how fast excactly Links strongest punish and fastest OoS options are :D
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
OoS spin attack starts frame 4. The problem is it has ages of end lag if you wiff. Often jump>Nair is the best OoS option unless you have a guaranteed hit.
For Link's strongest punish that depends on what you mean. If the opponent has their shield broken: if they're at a % charged double Fsmash will kill at use that. If you're very confident you could go for a bomb footstool lock
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-18#post-18949367
or a jab cancel lock but I think that will be patched out on the 15th. SH throw boomerang above the opponent>charge Dsmash>release as the wind returns for both Dsmash hits deals 29% and launches at a low angle behind Link (needs testing but it worked in Brawl).
 

Sabaca

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With fastes OoS option+strongest punish i meant instant z-drop
Sabaca said:
Where do i find / What is the frame data to Links instant z-drops and all kind of bombthrows.
(wich leads into nairlock wich can lead into damaging the opponent up to ~80% or kills if you hit it near the ledge due to dairspike or at hit it at high%. Ofcourse only if you are consistently in using instant z-drop and nair locks , wich should be possible imo) Although i forgot about the UpB that is faster if the jumping startup is more than 3 frames.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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i meant instant z-drop(wich leads into nairlock wich can lead into damaging the opponent up to ~80% or kills if you hit it near the ledge due to dairspike
That's... actually kind of a good point. You only have to Nair lock them all the way to the edge, and then you get a guaranteed instant z-drop to Dair spike. Maybe this Nair lock string could be useful. I figured it would be overlooked because the Nair eventually stops locking and so the effort required to learn it and get consistent at instant z-drops wouldn't be worth the average damage you get out of it all. After figuring it out I never really got the time to look into it's practical application unfortunately, but I think you've just done that XD, so good job.
 

Linkmario00

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Wait, what exactly is a nairlock? Seems interesting if it's really the starter for obtaining a spike.
 

Rizen

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Wait, what exactly is a nairlock? Seems interesting if it's really the starter for obtaining a spike.
If a character has a hard landing, where they are in hitstun or falling from a footstool, and gets hit with a weak attack at the right time (during the little bounce) they will be bumped a short distance and not be able to tech. This forces them to stand up without being able to roll or get up attack. So that means you get a free hit on them as they stand.
Link's attacks that 'lock' are Nair and arrows (not fully charged). Nair locks usually are setup by: throw a bomb down at the opponent>footstool them as they're launched up>fast fall Nair on them.
 

Linkmario00

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If a character has a hard landing, where they are in hitstun or falling from a footstool, and gets hit with a weak attack at the right time (during the little bounce) they will be bumped a short distance and not be able to tech. This forces them to stand up without being able to roll or get up attack. So that means you get a free hit on them as they stand.
Link's attacks that 'lock' are Nair and arrows (not fully charged). Nair locks usually are setup by: throw a bomb down at the opponent>footstool them as they're launched up>fast fall Nair on them.
Ah yeah, so the nair cab do a jab lock. I guess only the sourspot can. But if we footstool the opponent in the air, with a FF nair we should be able to get another jab lock, right? And continue since the bomb send the character too far for footstool him. Seems very useful. Could also an instant Z-drop be useful once getting the jab lock? Because it seems hard to me to bomb shine an opponent since he will hit me before I can release the bomb, but the application of bomb shine are just too useful to don't use it.
 

TNS|Quake

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So ever since they discovered that frame of vulnerability during a ledge snap I've been going insane trying to time my meaty moves when someone snaps to the ledge. Characters like Sonic and Mac seem to have it easy with d-smashes while Link, as far as I can tell, can only use an aerial or a bomb drop. F-tilt, d-tilt, d-smash, dash attack--nothing seems to be meaty enough or extend far enough beyond the ledge to catch anybody consistently.

Can anybody correctly time/space these ground moves? Any moves I'm overlooking?
 
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Elessar

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So ever since they discovered that frame of vulnerability during a ledge snap I've been going insane trying to time my meaty moves when someone snaps to the ledge. Characters like Sonic and Mac seem to have it easy with d-smashes while Link, as far as I can tell, can only use an aerial or a bomb drop. F-tilt, d-tilt, d-smash, dash attack--nothing seems to be meaty enough or extend far enough beyond the ledge to catch anybody consistently.

Can anybody correctly time/space these ground moves? Any moves I'm overlooking?
The positioning and timing are extremely precise, but dtilt and ftilt do hit beneath the Ledge. Dtilt is a bit character dependant, but ftilt hits everyone. Finally, you can soft thrown a bomb and time it so that it will roll over the Ledge and be on top of the player's hurt box as they read the ledge so it would go off. Some characters can be stage spiked with a well time bair off stage bair as well.
 

Elessar

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what about the second hit of dsmash?
While I haven't tested it, I don't smash hitting beneath the stage. It is worthy of labbing though so unless someone beats me to it I'll test it when I get home this afternoon. Considering how the knockback was changed it could be though.
 
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